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Thread: Doce Pares Lineage.

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    Default Doce Pares Lineage.

    I've heard it said that most of the better-known FMAs that are still extant today trace their roots back to Doce Pares in one way or another. I think this is an exaggeration, but I wonder: What are the currently practiced arts that descend from Doce Pares?

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    Default Doce Pares

    Quote Originally Posted by arnisador
    I've heard it said that most of the better-known FMAs that are still extant today trace their roots back to Doce Pares in one way or another. I think this is an exaggeration, but I wonder: What are the currently practiced arts that descend from Doce Pares?
    I don't think it's an exaggeration, direct relationships are found with:

    Balintawak
    Modern Arnis
    MigSuneDo
    Eskrido
    Pekiti Tirsia

    There are a lot of arts which claimed ties to Doce Pares prior to GM Diony Canete and GM Cacoy Canete coming to the US to teach. Most notably those were Villabrille Kali and Serrada. GM Villabrille even claimed to have been a champion and founding member by some accounts although he was never in any of the club records. Felicimo Dizon who trained Angel Cabales claimed to be in Doce Pares although there were no records of him there as anything but an observer at a match or two. So there was some exaggeration. Although since the early 1990's those claims have been redirected to a hitherto unknown "other" Doce Pares club. That may be the case.

    Doce Pares isn't the wellspring of all of the FMA but it has had influence on a lot of styles even when it wasn't a direct relation such as in:

    Black Eagle
    Inosanto Blend
    Visayan Eskrima
    Lapunti Arnis de Abanico
    Dekiti Tirsia
    Arnis Presas

    Doce Pares as a collection of styles has evolved over the years and there were always many branches. Although Balintawak or Modern Arnis might not look like a Doce Pares you've seen, there are many Doce Pares you haven't. Plus what it looks like now may not be what it looked like in the past.
    Be Cool.

    Bart Hubbard
    Capital Doce Pares
    DPI C4

    "If you know your history,
    then you would know where you're coming from.
    Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
    'who the 'eck do I think I am?'"

    Bob Marley - Buffalo Soldier

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    Bart,

    Please eloborate on the relationship between Pekiti Tirsia/Dekiti Tirsia and Doce Pares. I have read claims that PT/DT knife came from DP, but after seeing some DP knife, I frankly don't believe it. BTW I am not a Pekiti player so I have no agenda here.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakabakan International

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Grass
    Bart,

    Please eloborate on the relationship between Pekiti Tirsia/Dekiti Tirsia and Doce Pares. I have read claims that PT/DT knife came from DP, but after seeing some DP knife, I frankly don't believe it. BTW I am not a Pekiti player so I have no agenda here.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakabakan International

    Be Cool.

    Bart Hubbard
    Capital Doce Pares
    DPI C4

    "If you know your history,
    then you would know where you're coming from.
    Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
    'who the 'eck do I think I am?'"

    Bob Marley - Buffalo Soldier

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    Bart,

    Kewl pic.


    Can you put into context what is going on here, I think thats Momoy and Gaje. Are you saying that Pekti came from Doce Pares or that Doce Pares has influenced Pekiti and if so in what way?

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakbakan International

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Grass
    Bart,

    Please eloborate on the relationship between Pekiti Tirsia/Dekiti Tirsia and Doce Pares. I have read claims that PT/DT knife came from DP, but after seeing some DP knife, I frankly don't believe it. BTW I am not a Pekiti player so I have no agenda here.

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakabakan International
    When you say you've seen Doce Pares knife, who's knife have you seen? There is a big difference between Doce Pares groups. The knife of DP Multi-style has a different emphasis than the San Miguel Doce Pares. GM Cacoy's DP knife is also going to have it's own flavor.

    Although they may seem completely different now doesn't mean that they don't share roots. They've all developed over the years, but at one point they touched base.
    Be Cool.

    Bart Hubbard
    Capital Doce Pares
    DPI C4

    "If you know your history,
    then you would know where you're coming from.
    Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
    'who the 'eck do I think I am?'"

    Bob Marley - Buffalo Soldier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Grass
    Bart,

    Kewl pic.


    Can you put into context what is going on here, I think thats Momoy and Gaje. Are you saying that Pekti came from Doce Pares or that Doce Pares has influenced Pekiti and if so in what way?

    Vince
    aka Black Grass
    Bakbakan International
    I'm just trying to point out that they touched base. That is GM Momoy and GM Gaje. That was taken when Pekiti Tirsia had not yet been revealed to the world. At that time, Leo Gaje was just another guy taking eskrima lessons. He was present at a lot of Doce Pares training sessions and events. He may not give credit to Doce Pares, but you can't go to those things and not be influenced.
    Be Cool.

    Bart Hubbard
    Capital Doce Pares
    DPI C4

    "If you know your history,
    then you would know where you're coming from.
    Then you wouldn't have to ask me,
    'who the 'eck do I think I am?'"

    Bob Marley - Buffalo Soldier

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    Default Other Doce Pares

    I have heard from a variety of sources that there are or at least were several Doce Pares organizations in the Philippines. The most famous is the Cebu Doce Pares Club which this thread has focused on so far. Guro Dan Inosanto has mentioned at least two other Doce Pares clubs, one was in the Laguna region of Luzon. Presumably, this is the club connected with Felicismo Dizon (sp?) since he spent much of his life in Luzon. I had not heard of the Villabrille connection to Laguna Doce Pares before, but it's a possibility since Dizon cornered for Villabrille in all of his stick fights after 1921 that were in the Philippines(according to Guro Inosanto). I have also seen a reference to an Agapito Ilustrisimo in connection with the Laguna Doce Pares, but I don't know if there is a family relation or just a coincidence. I believe there is one instructor who claims ties to the Laguna Doce Pares who is teaching in the US. His name is Abundio Baet and his website is http://www.garimot.com/abon.htm. I assume there are other instructors that are connected to this Doce Pares Club.
    Guro Inosanto also mentioned a Doce Pares club in the Visayas (aside from the Cebu club). He said that his instructor Juanito Lacoste trained with them and they were more of a secret group. I'm not sure if they're even around to day. He mentioned that they were connected with the Illongos (I don't know if that is a tribe, a region, a dialect or what, but that's the name I remember him saying). I have no direct sources regarding this group and don't know if they still exist. Also, do you have any more on the Pekiti/Doce Pares connection?

    Hope that helps,
    Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epa
    I have heard from a variety of sources that there are or at least were several Doce Pares organizations in the Philippines....
    Hope that helps,
    Eric
    I have read many posts that described the Doce Pares organization as a 'club' that had various instructors and students that were distinct from one another, but were all training in the same location.

    Does this mean that the clubhouse was common use and different people used it at different times (like time sharing or sub leasing a martial arts school from another martial artist)? There would be some cross training, but people would mainly train with their chosen instructor?

    Or

    Does this mean that everyone showed up on the same schedule and were doing their own thing somewhere on the floor while others were somewhere else on the floor?

    Either way it seems like it would be very difficult to discern between 'direct student' and 'trained with' or what ever for a family tree in any 'official' fashion.

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    Loki,

    I'm not sure if I understood what you're asking for, but I'll try my best. In my post, I was saying that there were other Filipino Martial Arts groups (clubs whatever you want to call them) that used the name Doce Pares that were not affiliated in any documented way with the Doce Pares Club of Cebu (the club founded by the Canete Brothers and Saavedras (sp?) as well as several other Cebuano Eskrimadors).
    The other two clubs that I mentioned were not on the same islands as the Canete Doce Pares. One is on Laguna, on the island of Luzon. I was not given a location for the other. I know it is in the Visayan region and was assoicated with the Illongo (again I'm not sure if that's an ethnic group, language or location). So I don't think these Doce Pares could rightfully be considered off shoots of the Cebu Doce Pares. In fact, there's no evidence to suggest that these groups were aware of each other. They all just happened to use the same name.
    Maybe it's more than a coincidence and players from one club moved and continued practicing, I simply don't have enough information to confirm or deny that. At this point, there seems to be no solid link between any of these groups. As Bart pointed out, Dizon was only a spectator at one or two matches assoicated with the Cebu Doce Pares so there seems to be no direct link there. At this point, there only seems to be a connection between the names of the ogranizations.
    As far as the organization of the Doce Pares club in Cebu. I have no idea how they organized their practice or what format they used. Bart could probably answer that better than I could. I hope that made sense.

    Eric

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