The Title of Datu.

[ghuimo]

i met rick in the philippines. i am one of the students of shihan lledo. i haven't seen hartman but it is not a matter of who won but how you fought and how you accepted your defeat. i can say that rick is not equipped with those high level but fancy moves but he has a very good foundation. eventhough you have the techniques, you mastered the techniques, your mind should be one with your body. i believe this is the state of rick during the tournament plus keeping your foot on the ground.

"Rick the only area I see where we MIGHT and I say MIGHT disagree (* As I care for those little things you were whining about *) is that of a Filipino versus an American, and that the Filipino will always be better and that Training in the PI is always better. " - rich parson

as for rich parson, training in the philippines is no better than training in other places.. you should only have a good trainer.. and i believe my shihan is one of the best.. he trained many champions here in the philippines. plus he focuses not just on skills but more of the discipline. everybody is a champion, you just need to choose your field..

rick, please tell shihan we hope to see him soon and you too rick. we are doing our thing here with shihan's son, renshi mark... ^_____^

[langgaw]

Salamat Mr Sepuku,

What I am about to share maybe controversial to everyboby. Mr Sepuku requested that I say something about Arnis rules , regulations, etc. I have to be very careful when saying anything which can only be the truth. I would swear to say only the facts and historical truths based on what I learned from teachers, students researchers, books and founded claims. I wish to keep this a healthy intelligent discussion and push that political and legal air away.

I know people will start sueing and cursing and defaming, etc and this is not the intent whatso ever. But I have a lot of stimulating questions to share with everyone.given the chance to write in this forum. For now I will start with one. The next ones will follow after we satisfy our knowledge base through helpful exchange of data.

I have asked teachers, students, politicians. people on the street ....in regions , provinces, localities, arnisadors, GMs, almost all that I have encountered here and there........about this question " Can a foreigner be granted a title of DATU ?

100 % insisted NO!!!.... and then came a series of ...buts, only ifs, except ons, because, regardless, etc..

My opinion.... A "Datu" title can ONLY be granted to a native who deserves the title from SOMEONE (usaually representing a group of elders) historically authorized to grant such in a ritual befitting a Royalty Datu.
All other datus (small letter d) are nothing but brand names. Thank you. Comments please.

Nagtahud sa tanan,

Langaw

[arnisador]

I have started a new thread for this topic.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[arnisador]

For the title as used in Modern Arnis, see also:
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=245
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=644

[langgaw]

Thank you sir.
Best,

Langgaw

[langgaw]

Mr Sepuku and all,

The administrator has started a new thread about he title of Datu for me. there will be more topics regarding related interests. Mr Sepuku, my answer to your request is in a new thread.........-rd-

[Balintawak]

Salamat Mr Sepuku,

What I am about to share maybe controversial to everyboby. Mr Sepuku requested that I say something about Arnis rules , regulations, etc. I have to be very careful when saying anything which can only be the truth. I would swear to say only the facts and historical truths based on what I learned from teachers, students researchers, books and founded claims. I wish to keep this a healthy intelligent discussion and push that political and legal air away.

I know people will start sueing and cursing and defaming, etc and this is not the intent whatso ever. But I have a lot of stimulating questions to share with everyone.given the chance to write in this forum. For now I will start with one. The next ones will follow after we satisfy our knowledge base through helpful exchange of data.

I have asked teachers, students, politicians. people on the street ....in regions , provinces, localities, arnisadors, GMs, almost all that I have encountered here and there........about this question " Can a foreigner be granted a title of DATU ?

100 % insisted NO!!!.... and then came a series of ...buts, only ifs, except ons, because, regardless, etc..

My opinion.... A "Datu" title can ONLY be granted to a native who deserves the title from SOMEONE (usaually representing a group of elders) historically authorized to grant such in a ritual befitting a Royalty Datu.
All other datus (small letter d) are nothing but brand names. Thank you. Comments please.

Nagtahud sa tanan,

Langaw

Sir,

No Disrespect meant, but your post has made me want to ask some questions.

What regions did you ask? If I do not know them, then I will look them up.

What region were these people born in that you asked?

What religion (* If any *) were the people you asked?

How many people?


Like I said no disrespect, but those Filipino's I have had the priviledge to talk to and ask serious questions of nto many can agree upon how to sayt a word let alone the meaning of a word. I have met some who do not even know that Arnis or Escrima are arts of the PI. I have met some who were mad that I a non-filipino has trained in such arts.

So, I ask to get a better understanding of your data, not to question the integrity of the data or your presentation, for I believe you when you make your comments.

I am just trying to better understand.

Thank you

[langgaw]

Mr Balintawak,

No disrespect taken at all. I am referring to the 13 regions in the Phil plus the NCR (national Capital region), CAR( Cordillera Admin.Region) and the Autonomous Muslim Mindanao Region. I gathered a sizable sample (with help of students, etc) for statistical purposes. involving major religions (big percent Roman Catholics) and mostly native borns. I expected detail questions like this a nd that is fine except that I believe going in this direction will cloud the main line of thought or question. Again I am not stopping you from inquiring.

There are alot (Millions) of Pinoys in my homeland and specially abraod who knows nothing about arnis. Most even think it is Indonesian and malaysian and muslim art but not Philippine arnis.. that does not surprise me at all.
Moreover those who know are very nationalistic and hate non-filipinos who are getting good at the art. It is only with foreigners that the art got some boost in popularity because it became commercial. The problem with pinoys is that they are extremely shy and secretive. Note , I said non pinoy that are getting good....not better....because in world of traditional arnis, the world has not seen enough yet. No disrespect to you and Balintawak too and even Modern arnis, sir....there are better systems (not style) out there. The 2 traits of pinoys hinder the propagation of the real arnis. I have encountered those in the shadows and they are in fact afraid to show it at all. I myself is a traditional warrior and am not allowed to teach it until I reach a certain age. I am a new gen with traditional background and just learning the tech of the new age that is way I am sharing this hi-tech. This is sad ...but then... you know...people will question you and challenge you and for what .....usually for pride and money.....I am over that by the way....reason why I ahve to mature first before sharing the art........

What I am trying to do is learn what others think of questions right in front of us. I thank you sir fro yor inquiry.

...-rd-

[Rich Parsons]

Mr Balintawak,

No disrespect taken at all. I am referring to the 13 regions in the Phil plus the NCR (national Capital region), CAR( Cordillera Admin.Region) and the Autonomous Muslim Mindanao Region. I gathered a sizable sample (with help of students, etc) for statistical purposes. involving major religions (big percent Roman Catholics) and mostly native borns. I expected detail questions like this a nd that is fine except that I believe going in this direction will cloud the main line of thought or question. Again I am not stopping you from inquiring.

There are alot (Millions) of Pinoys in my homeland and specially abraod who knows nothing about arnis. Most even think it is Indonesian and malaysian and muslim art but not Philippine arnis.. that does not surprise me at all.
Moreover those who know are very nationalistic and hate non-filipinos who are getting good at the art. It is only with foreigners that the art got some boost in popularity because it became commercial. The problem with pinoys is that they are extremely shy and secretive. Note , I said non pinoy that are getting good....not better....because in world of traditional arnis, the world has not seen enough yet. No disrespect to you and Balintawak too and even Modern arnis, sir....there are better systems (not style) out there. The 2 traits of pinoys hinder the propagation of the real arnis. I have encountered those in the shadows and they are in fact afraid to show it at all. I myself is a traditional warrior and am not allowed to teach it until I reach a certain age. I am a new gen with traditional background and just learning the tech of the new age that is way I am sharing this hi-tech. This is sad ...but then... you know...people will question you and challenge you and for what .....usually for pride and money.....I am over that by the way....reason why I ahve to mature first before sharing the art........

What I am trying to do is learn what others think of questions right in front of us. I thank you sir fro yor inquiry.

...-rd-

Sir,

First let me apologize for posting from my "Balintawak" Mod Account.

My Name is Rich Parsons. Please call me Rich.

Second, that is good that you did this study and included more than just the Southern Regions that may have also Religious connotations to the title as well.

I respect those I have trained with from the PI.

I never stated that any single art is better than another, it is always up to the will power and fight in the person, not the reputation of the system or of those who also have trained.

I respect many who have lived and trained in the PI as well. Even those I have not meet, but only heard of or have the chance to talk to one of thier students.

Yet, I must now draw a line on some of what you have said and implied.

No art is too deadly to practice (* Well maybe Global Thermonuclear Warfare if practiced with real weapons *) or teach. I respect that one may want to understand the charcater of a person before teaching them how to hurt or kill someone else. That I respect. The other is hiding behind mysticism and BS.

As to Good versus better, this is back to my arguement that being of a culture or nationality does not guarentee success or superiority, it does promote racism and discrimination. That is fine if you want to do it in your own little part of the world. But here on this Board and others, and in my part of the world I will challenge that idea of someone of a certain nationality being better just because. (* Not afraid if you want to meet me and talk to me about our difference of attititude either. *)

As to being involved with better arts, that is fine some cover other areas diffenently then what I train. I say good. I enjoy what I train. If you think that I as an individual, who has been stabbed, hit by a car, a truck, beat up by multiple people and survived it all, and made sure many went to the hospital, and even had to revive one or two who I had knocked so far out they were not breathing, makes those I teach just a tuff or stupid as I am then we disagree. Being shot at does not make a good gun fighter. It does make me lucky or a survivor.

So, while I respect that you train in an FMA, and have the benefit of the culture, please continue to present your opinions and comments here, but I ask you as a non-pinoy practitioner of the FMA's to check your attitude at the door, so your knowledge has a better chance to reach people. Otherwise people will just ignore you, and while I agree that many in the arts art secretive, and shy, one does not need to add antoher reason for why people do not learn.

Thank you

[Sheldon Bedell]

ok and now back to the discussion of what is a datu an what the title means in today’s world

Dose the word refers to a warlord or a chieftain or a leader, or what ever.
or it strictly a religious title or one given to those that deserve it (in the givers view)

[Brian R. VanCise]

Datu, as pertaining to Modern Arnis it really is just a title that Remy gave to a few. I do not see it as alot different then Master of Tapi Tapi or Senior Master, etc. You see he tried to please everyone and keep everybody happy. Sometimes when you do that you want to give them a title. So that is what he did. Just my opinion. Nor does it lesson the title just puts it in perspective.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[PeteNerd]

ok and now back to the discussion of what is a datu an what the title means in today’s world

Dose the word refers to a warlord or a chieftain or a leader, or what ever.
or it strictly a religious title or one given to those that deserve it (in the givers view)


A Datu is basically a chief or elder of a tribe. There are idigenous groups in the philippines that still use the title of Datu. They mainly deal with protecting the rights and lands of the indigenous tribal peoples of the philippines. They are recognized by the United Nations charter for idigneous peoples.

The Datus Alimaong (Holy Warriors) are involved with the idigenous people in the Visayas and Mindanao.

As far as foreigners being allowed to have the Datu. I witnessed the Datu Alimaong's sacred rites and induction ceremony where they added new members and they bestowed the honorary title of Datu on a couple foreigners. I was able to attend the ceremony because my instructor and I were asked to perform as an offering during the ceremonies. Most of the Datu's now a days don't know much about the philippines idigenous martial arts. My instructor is friends with the Datus and said they were always asking him to join.

The modern arnis title of datu is just that a title in modern arnis. I don't think any of the people who have the modern arnis title of "datu" are trying to say that they are filipino tribal leaders. For whatever reason the founder of this system thought it would be an appropriate title and gave it to them. I'm not sure how the real Datu's would react to them using the title of Datu, and not's really none of my business. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the title of Datu in Modern Arnis only has any real power or authority within the system of Modern Arnis.

Outside of Modern Arnis the title doesn't much matter, and shouldn't really concern anyone. If they decided to roll down to the Visayas or Mindanao and start claiming they were Datus or something, then they might have some problems.

Pete

[arnisador]

Modern Arnis is not the only FMA to have practitioners styled as Datu. For example, there is Datu Halford Jones (of Arnis Lanada). Also, see this post (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=430) featuring our own Datu Darrell Sarjeant.

[PeteNerd]

ok and now back to the discussion of what is a datu an what the title means in today’s world

Dose the word refers to a warlord or a chieftain or a leader, or what ever.
or it strictly a religious title or one given to those that deserve it (in the givers view)


My wife is a Filipina so I asked her what she thought of foreigners using the title of Datu. She said that to her it just sounds corny. There's no way they are real datu's so why bother. She said unless you're filipino you can't be a real datu anyway. It's like calling yourself king or sultan or chief.

Pete

[langgaw]

Rich,

First of all, I missed your statement that asingle art is better than another. There are many arts out there that and more effective .....in many ways....like effective deception. angles of atttack, direct-ness of attack,flows etc..

again on the ....no art is to deadly to practice. Of course there is or are many...that is why they mock weapons with blunt wood metal and sticks. In the stick fighting alne., if you give both of them a real pinuti then the fight is done in seconds even if both are skilled .... that is a deadly art to practice......so practice they do using rattan sticks.

and also ....hiding behind mysticism and BS. This statement does not sound nice to me. But then this is a forum.You make your response very personal and that is exactly the direction that I do not want to go. Obviously, it is a western attitude I yet have to understand. By the way, why did the monks hide their art before and what about the chi.... there is mysticism in it too. Obviously you seem limited in your knowledge about the mystical aspect of the FMA art. Physical is good but do not stop there.

Pleasae teach me how to check my attitude at the door so I wont be ignored and for that other reason that you are saying ....you have talked too deeply that my simple mind can not comprehend.maybe our friends can help explain some.

Honestly, I am offended by your approach but do not mind me because you are not in my place (you respect your elders wishes even if you disagree specially in modern times) and this is just a forum anyway....nothing personal.

We may meet someday sir, and then you will understand. Let us just keep to the question at hand just like Mr Sheldon, Mr Petenerd and Mr Vancise are doing.

Nagtahud,
langaw

[Sepuku]

(* Not afraid if you want to meet me and talk to me about our difference of attititude either. *)

As to being involved with better arts, that is fine some cover other areas diffenently then what I train. I say good. I enjoy what I train. If you think that I as an individual, who has been stabbed, hit by a car, a truck, beat up by multiple people and survived it all, and made sure many went to the hospital, and even had to revive one or two who I had knocked so far out they were not breathing, makes those I teach just a tuff or stupid as I am then we disagree. Being shot at does not make a good gun fighter. It does make me lucky or a survivor.

So, while I respect that you train in an FMA, and have the benefit of the culture, please continue to present your opinions and comments here, but I ask you as a non-pinoy practitioner of the FMA's to check your attitude at the door, so your knowledge has a better chance to reach people. Otherwise people will just ignore you, and while I agree that many in the arts art secretive, and shy, one does not need to add antoher reason for why people do not learn.

Seems like you have the Attitude problem Sir. Mr. Langgaw did not attack or try to offend anyone. If you read is first posting he tried to avoid it and explain himself. He gave all of us a heads-up and expected people to be somewhat offended but asked to be open minded. It did not call for an Attack by you ..."not Afraid if you want to meet... " or brag about how many people you have knocked out.

You did not offer any knowledge at all like Mr. Langgaw did. At least he offered some information about the subject at hand. Because the way you wrote that posting... it makes me want to Ignore you. However, I know you are one of the Moderators in this forum and usually have good opinions to offer or help resolve a problem.

Now... I would just like to say Salamat Po' Mr. Langgaw for the brief lesson and the others who have offered their own contributions in the matter. I'm here to learn from all of you. Being new to Arnis, all your knowledge and experiences are appreciated. Thank you!

[Sepuku]

Just to let everyone know... this Thread really stemmed from Datu Tim Hartman's comments on Page 6 of thread "Aftermath". Mr. Langgaw and myself were the only ones who really noticed that Datu Hartman's use of words were not appropriate for his Title. It just shocked me that a 9th Degree Black Belt would belittle another Arnisador or insult another Guro.

Therefore I asked Mr. Langgaw what a real Datu is. Since he is from Cebu in the Philippines, an Arnisador himself, and History Teacher. From all the postings he has wrote, I respect his opinions and find him very knowledgeable. Learning from your Elders is a great thing. "knowledge is power" and I look forward to expanding my mind and vision and self. PeteNerd also offered good facts so I suggest keeping an open mind and listening to what people have to say in this forum.

[Sepuku]

Thank you Mr. Langgaw. I will check out the new thread. Hope you dont ruffle too many feathers. lol There is much to learn about the Filipino Arts, this country is just a baby in it. Promoting FMA the "right way" will hopefully bring it to a higher level.

JohnJ and yourself seem to have great insight and knowledge, so I look forward to learning more from both of you. Salamat Po'

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

First of all, I missed your statement that asingle art is better than another. There are many arts out there that and more effective .....in many ways....like effective deception. angles of atttack, direct-ness of attack,flows etc..


Sir,

I did not make the statement you did. It was your first trollish point I was trying to address.



again on the ....no art is to deadly to practice. Of course there is or are many...that is why they mock weapons with blunt wood metal and sticks. In the stick fighting alne., if you give both of them a real pinuti then the fight is done in seconds even if both are skilled .... that is a deadly art to practice......so practice they do using rattan sticks.


Hmmm, it seems to me they are practicing it with Rattan or wood to represent the blade. So you make my point that there are no arts too deadly to practice as one can find a way.



and also ....hiding behind mysticism and BS. This statement does not sound nice to me. But then this is a forum.You make your response very personal and that is exactly the direction that I do not want to go. Obviously, it is a western attitude I yet have to understand. By the way, why did the monks hide their art before and what about the chi.... there is mysticism in it too. Obviously you seem limited in your knowledge about the mystical aspect of the FMA art. Physical is good but do not stop there.


What do the Monks have to do with this. You brought up the cultural issue. While being offensive to all non natives to the PI.

And who said I stopped with just the physical, what I meant to say is that you and others hide behind this mystic that if one is not from the PI then they cannot learn a FMA. Pure and simple put this is racist. Why not just look up some Nazi slogans, and go the whole way, and start going after those not of your own nationality.



Pleasae teach me how to check my attitude at the door so I wont be ignored and for that other reason that you are saying ....you have talked too deeply that my simple mind can not comprehend.maybe our friends can help explain some.


You can be ignored real easy by people not reading your posts.

You can be ignored by those who own and run this site closing or disabling or banning your account or IP. (* I speak generically here as a member, no threat meant only trying to help you understand to avoid such an issue. *)

No problem, enlighten me to who "our" mutual friends may be and I would be more than willing to talk to them.



Honestly, I am offended by your approach but do not mind me because you are not in my place (you respect your elders wishes even if you disagree specially in modern times) and this is just a forum anyway....nothing personal.


And I was and am Offended by your racist attitudes about only PI nationals can teach and or practice and or learn a FMA. As to respect of elders I do respect them. I have held back many times to avoid conflict one or more has not wanted. I have also tried to appease to make things better.

But pure and simple racism is something where I draw the line, and those Elders who have taught me and I have given my respect freely too, also seem to laugh and agree with me about how only a PI native can learn. So maybe they broke the code and taught some non PI natives, but there are some who are trying to learn and those who have learned.



We may meet someday sir, and then you will understand. Let us just keep to the question at hand just like Mr Sheldon, Mr Petenerd and Mr Vancise are doing.

Nagtahud,
langaw


As to meeting, You know my name. Your signature is in lower case, and I am not sure what is your name or how to address you. For you see, I told you to call me Rich. You did not reply in kind, as if a non PI native is not worthy of addressing you. Which is fine, as I will continue with the veiled respectful addresses. And if we meet please be man enough to introduce yourself, so I know who you are. I would be glad to have that understanding you speak of. Been to the school of hard knocks and it seems one must go back to the well occasionally or get soft.

By the way, I could not translate Nagtahud. None of the online translations would handle it either. I apologize for not knowing the language. I am still learning some Cebuano.


************************************************** *******


Now as to Datu:

Yes in Modern Arnis the Title is used.

In some other arts I have seen it used.

One of my instructors (* Modern Arnis *) did give out the title.

The other instructor laughs and says anyone who is in charge of their own school is a Datu or Leader if they wish to be.

I also recognize it is a symbol of pride in the PI, and in particular with those of the southern region.

I have seen the arguement so many times, and almost always the claim is that everyone in the PI knows what the word means and any non PI native who deems to use it (* or was given it *) is stealing something from the culture or is a fraud. All of this many times is based upon the fact of just their skin color. (* Yes, I have a big problem with discrimination. *)

So, while I respect your opinion to not use the title or not train with someone because of the title, it is your blatant racist attitude that I find offending.

So please excuse me, for being offended by this attitude, when you might have some data and some perspective that could be beneficial to thsoe here to learn from. Yet, the more I see in writing I begin to wonder.

[Rich Parsons]

Seems like you have the Attitude problem Sir. Mr. Langgaw did not attack or try to offend anyone. If you read is first posting he tried to avoid it and explain himself. He gave all of us a heads-up and expected people to be somewhat offended but asked to be open minded. It did not call for an Attack by you ..."not Afraid if you want to meet... " or brag about how many people you have knocked out.

You did not offer any knowledge at all like Mr. Langgaw did. At least he offered some information about the subject at hand. Because the way you wrote that posting... it makes me want to Ignore you. However, I know you are one of the Moderators in this forum and usually have good opinions to offer or help resolve a problem.

Now... I would just like to say Salamat Po' Mr. Langgaw for the brief lesson and the others who have offered their own contributions in the matter. I'm here to learn from all of you. Being new to Arnis, all your knowledge and experiences are appreciated. Thank you!


I apologize if you took offense.

I took offense at something that I am finding more and more.

A non PI Native can train their life and they are worse than anyone in the PI just becuase they live there.

He came across with his attitude and yes I came back with mine for may reasons.

1) To show how easy it is to offend upon the net.
2) To show a mirror attitude and how takes all possible discussion away once one person goes there even if they couch it with words of not tryting to be offensive. Racism is offensive in any form at any time.
3) To state I find his words offensive and offending and that I will argue against his Racist point of view.

His reply to my first post: (* and my first post as "Rich Parsons" explains the accounts. *)

Mr Balintawak,

No disrespect taken at all. I am referring to the 13 regions in the Phil plus the NCR (national Capital region), CAR( Cordillera Admin.Region) and the Autonomous Muslim Mindanao Region. I gathered a sizable sample (with help of students, etc) for statistical purposes. involving major religions (big percent Roman Catholics) and mostly native borns. I expected detail questions like this a nd that is fine except that I believe going in this direction will cloud the main line of thought or question. Again I am not stopping you from inquiring.

There are alot (Millions) of Pinoys in my homeland and specially abraod who knows nothing about arnis. Most even think it is Indonesian and malaysian and muslim art but not Philippine arnis.. that does not surprise me at all.
Moreover those who know are very nationalistic and hate non-filipinos who are getting good at the art. It is only with foreigners that the art got some boost in popularity because it became commercial. The problem with pinoys is that they are extremely shy and secretive. Note , I said non pinoy that are getting good....not better....because in world of traditional arnis, the world has not seen enough yet. No disrespect to you and Balintawak too and even Modern arnis, sir....there are better systems (not style) out there. The 2 traits of pinoys hinder the propagation of the real arnis. I have encountered those in the shadows and they are in fact afraid to show it at all. I myself is a traditional warrior and am not allowed to teach it until I reach a certain age. I am a new gen with traditional background and just learning the tech of the new age that is way I am sharing this hi-tech. This is sad ...but then... you know...people will question you and challenge you and for what .....usually for pride and money.....I am over that by the way....reason why I ahve to mature first before sharing the art........

What I am trying to do is learn what others think of questions right in front of us. I thank you sir fro yor inquiry.

...-rd-

In this statement from directly above:


I expected detail questions like this a nd that is fine except that I believe going in this direction will cloud the main line of thought or question. Again I am not stopping you from inquiring.


He makes the comment that it is bad to ask about the data. He implies that I am inquiring into something even after he asked me not too. This is like me saying that all the GREAT GM's have already left the PI and are here in the States, and only the second rate instructors are left. But we should not inquire into this as this would cause negative and politcal discussions. (* PLEASE NOTE: There are great GM's of many systems in the PI, I was only making a point. *)



No disrespect to you and Balintawak too and even Modern arnis, sir....there are better systems (not style) out there.


This could be read as a vieled comment about stick arts versus blade arts. In particular if you reference his reply back to me about blade systems.


Yet the preceeding line:


Note , I said non pinoy that are getting good....not better....because in world of traditional arnis, the world has not seen enough yet.


. . . is the Line I really took and take offense of.

This makes the implication that non Pinoy's cannot learn the art for they could not understand nor have they seen enough.

This lead me to make my comments about seeing violence, so the PI is not alone in seeing violence.

It also states that any Non Pinoy can not be better than anyone in the PI just based upon location and Culture. That is RACISM.

So I am sorry you took offense.

I dislike Racism in any form. So I called him on it. Yet, it seems that this form of Racism is so accepted in the culture and in those who study FMA that no one seemed to notice it. This is also the Mysticism I was talking about. Like being there and living the violence and being of the culture makes it so only they truly understand the art or system.


Yet for a bunch of people willing to learn and also wanting to express themselves and be intelligent about it and avoid political issues, they sure seems to be alot of comments that by themselves may not be that bad, but when taken in as a whole, are something bad. This bothers me.

[Rich Parsons]

Just to let everyone know... this Thread really stemmed from Datu Tim Hartman's comments on Page 6 of thread "Aftermath". Mr. Langgaw and myself were the only ones who really noticed that Datu Hartman's use of words were not appropriate for his Title. It just shocked me that a 9th Degree Black Belt would belittle another Arnisador or insult another Guro.

Therefore I asked Mr. Langgaw what a real Datu is. Since he is from Cebu in the Philippines, an Arnisador himself, and History Teacher. From all the postings he has wrote, I respect his opinions and find him very knowledgeable. Learning from your Elders is a great thing. "knowledge is power" and I look forward to expanding my mind and vision and self. PeteNerd also offered good facts so I suggest keeping an open mind and listening to what people have to say in this forum.

Like I said in that thread, I have nothing to really say about that. It is not place to discuss point trounaments unless I am willing to live and do them. I have done them and they were fun. Like I said. But Nothing I really train for.

As to open mind, if you will read some of the 11,000+ posts I have over on Martial Talk a sister forum to this, you will find me one of the most open minded people to new ideas. I just dislike discrimination and Racism.

[Rich Parsons]

Thank you Mr. Langgaw. I will check out the new thread. Hope you dont ruffle too many feathers. lol There is much to learn about the Filipino Arts, this country is just a baby in it. Promoting FMA the "right way" will hopefully bring it to a higher level.

JohnJ and yourself seem to have great insight and knowledge, so I look forward to learning more from both of you. Salamat Po'


Can a non Native to the PI promote the art in the right way?

Can they teach it one on one and still maintain the qualit of instruction?

Can they learn it in this baby culture when most of the PI culture does not know it either? (* This is not meant as a disrespect as USA is a gun culture and there are lots who know nothing about guns in the USA. *)

[JohnJ]

Can a non Native to the PI promote the art in the right way? Can they teach it one on one and still maintain the qualit of instruction?

C'mon Rich...I think you know the answer.


Can they learn it in this baby culture when most of the PI culture does not know it either? (* This is not meant as a disrespect as USA is a gun culture and there are lots who know nothing about guns in the USA. *)

Are you asking whether or not FMA can be learned in the PI when most locals have not heard of it or recall it? If so, you know the answer again.

I'm curious what this has to to with the thread?

[Sepuku]

Thank you for Clarifying Rich. I have a better understanding now of where you are coming from. The Racism wasn't as clear to me.

Sorry if you were offended. I dont think that was Langgaw's intention in this forum. The secrecy and mystical things are present in many arts. I"m sure Ninjitsu and Shaolin most people are aware of. There are still many things people dont know about those arts. Those secrets still kept by the Old and Wise men who guard it. Asian people are like that by nature... shy and low-key and secretive. Sometimes it's like pulling teeth to talk to them. lol Trust me i know... and I"m Filipino-American. Just hard for the Asians in general to Open UP..much less in regards to Ancient Arts.

I do agree with you... Non-PI can definitely learn any any art they desire. Just because they didn't come from that country doesn't mean they can't learn to understand and teach and promote it. Just takes Dedication and Respect for the Art.

I'm from New Jersey and an American Citizen. Just starting to learn Arnis. Does this mean I can't be as good as Native Filipino's? that I can't eventually teach it as well? or cannot fully understand that art? or....Does this mean i have the upper hand over caucasians? Because it's "in my blood". I don't think so.

[Rich Parsons]

C'mon Rich...I think you know the answer.



Are you asking whether or not FMA can be learned in the PI when most locals have not heard of it or recall it? If so, you know the answer again.

I'm curious what this has to to with the thread?

John,

One would assume these were rhetorical questions.

And yes I would have my answers.

But the answers of the people on this thread are of interest to me.

If they agree with me that Racism is not right and that anyone who trains well and makes it their own can learn any art then I will apologize for the misunderstanding.

If they disagree with me then their point of view and interest in this thread becomes more clear.

Either way I learn about the poster and understand where they are coming from. I then can take that information and apply it to how I read this and other threads.

Like I said, if they agree with me about Racism being bad and that it not what they meant, and that anyone can learn an art, then I will apologize. If not then I know where they are coming from and how to ignore their posts and or filter their posts for the issues at hand.

For if Racism is what they meant, consciously or unconsciously, then there is no arguement under the sun or in the heavens above that will make sense and it is a moot point. Which also adds to the issue of trollish behaviour.

Let me present the arguement of "president". No other country should use this term. It is a special elected term for our leader of our country. To take this term for any democracy is an insult to the USA. Of course you and I know the errors of this arguement, but do those involved in the discussion of this thread understand it? If they understand then the first post of trying to have an intellectual discussion could happen, if the cultural biases are understood or dropped.

So John if I have offended you or yours then I am truly sorry. I am just trying to understand the original posters' point of view.

[PeteNerd]

I don't think Langgaw is being racist. I think he's trying to make a point. He's a filipino and he's offended by the use of the title Datu by a non-filipino. Datu is a filipino title. As for his comments about foreigners being good in arnis, but not better than the filipinos, I think he's probably referring to the more secretive and solitary elements of filipino martial history. Teaching arnis publicly and capitalizing on it's popularity is a new thing. There are still many people who keep their teachings and techniques secret. My instructor in the Philippines traveled the provinces in visayas and mindanao and he said there are many practicioners who keep to themselves and don't teach publicly. The only way you can learn from them is to "play" and experience their techniques. If you aren't good enough to play you will probably get hurt quite quickly. While my instructor taught me Balintawak there were some other things beyond that, he only alluded to and would not show me. You don't have to belive in it, but there are hidden aspects to arnis. Whether these practitioners and their techniques are better than what's in modern arnis are hard to say, because you can't really find them unless you go into the mountains and seek out these old men. There is also a great deal of mysticism behind arnis in the Philippines. Prayers and oracions and amulets that the wearers believe give them powers. These things are very real in the Philippines. You can buy the amulets outside most churches. You however have to know the prayers and the rituals to bring the power to the amulets. Have you ever trained under the full moon? Have you ever trained in the graveyard? Do you believe it could give you extra power and ability? Many practicioners there do. The faith healers and belief in spirits are very real. Make sure you say tabi-tabi po before you pass by the old tree, so the spirits know you are friendly and do not get mad at you.

The mysticism is not BS.

There is a traditional approach to arnis that is practiced, but isn't really seen very much, here or in the philippines. It's quiet and hidden.

I think you also have to realize that filipinos have a lot of pride for their country and heritage. I can see how many of them can be offended by a foreigner trying to co-opt the title of datu. As far as practicing arnis, I am honestly very surprised that you have experienced racism from filipinos, about you not being filipino. Perhaps that's a filipino american thing. When I was in the Philippines I was always treated very well. Everyone there was welcoming and friendly and very warm in general. That's why it's very hard for me to think of filipinos as being racist towards you.

I think if you try to run off every Filipino with an opinion that comes to this board, you are doing yourself and the members a bit of a disservice. I personally think you over reacted a bit trying to call langgaw racist, but that's just my opinion.

Pete

[langgaw]

Rich,

My name is Robert and you may call me any name after that. You are taking this personally and you seem very upset. Please calm down, sit back and relax. No racism issue here intended at all . you seem all red in the face and are either reading too much or beyond what is . Let me respond tomorrow when you have calmed down.
In arnis, this is the nest timew to attack, but this is a forum of open minded professionals so does not apply.

Nagtahud by the way means ....respectfully.

Langgaw.

[PeteNerd]

Let me present the arguement of "president". No other country should use this term. It is a special elected term for our leader of our country. To take this term for any democracy is an insult to the USA. Of course you and I know the errors of this arguement, but do those involved in the discussion of this thread understand it?

That's a pretty bad argument. It's not a special term... it was used by leaders before there was ever a United States. President is a pretty generic term, you can be president of a club or society, a board, a nation. As for the term Datu, that's very specifically a filipino tribal leader or king. Can't really confuse that too much.

Pete

[PeteNerd]

John,

One would assume these were rhetorical questions.

And yes I would have my answers.

But the answers of the people on this thread are of interest to me.

If they agree with me that Racism is not right and that anyone who trains well and makes it their own can learn any art then I will apologize for the misunderstanding.

If they disagree with me then their point of view and interest in this thread becomes more clear.

Either way I learn about the poster and understand where they are coming from. I then can take that information and apply it to how I read this and other threads.

Like I said, if they agree with me about Racism being bad and that it not what they meant, and that anyone can learn an art, then I will apologize. If not then I know where they are coming from and how to ignore their posts and or filter their posts for the issues at hand.

For if Racism is what they meant, consciously or unconsciously, then there is no arguement under the sun or in the heavens above that will make sense and it is a moot point. Which also adds to the issue of trollish behaviour.

Let me present the arguement of "president". No other country should use this term. It is a special elected term for our leader of our country. To take this term for any democracy is an insult to the USA. Of course you and I know the errors of this arguement, but do those involved in the discussion of this thread understand it? If they understand then the first post of trying to have an intellectual discussion could happen, if the cultural biases are understood or dropped.

So John if I have offended you or yours then I am truly sorry. I am just trying to understand the original posters' point of view.

I'm not sure why you are trying to make this into a race thing. I don't think anyone's trying to be racist. You're getting yourself all fired up over nothing. No one even responded to your bait with anything for you to get fired up over and you're already fired up.

Pete

[JohnJ]

But the answers of the people on this thread are of interest to me.

"People" on this thread. Who specifically? Several topics were raised from this thread, match winner, tournament appeal outcome, tournament format, promotion of FMA and titles such as Datu to name a few. It seems to me you have rolled everything into one and presenting it as a potential issue of racism.

Why? Is it because some of the posters may be Filipino and have their strong convictions, cultural beliefs maybe even just pride in their native art? You don't have to be born into the culture to find validity in these posts. Now, in staying with the original topic of who simply won, simple logic is all one needs.


If they agree with me that Racism is not right and that anyone who trains well and makes it their own can learn any art then I will apologize for the misunderstanding.

Stop crying racism cause it has NOTHING to do with the views.


If they disagree with me then their point of view and interest in this thread becomes more clear.


If they disagree with me then their point of view and interest in this thread becomes more clear. Like I said, if they agree with me about Racism being bad and that it not what they meant, and that anyone can learn an art, then I will apologize. If not then I know where they are coming from and how to ignore their posts and or filter their posts for the issues at hand.

First off, no one has to agree with anyone. This is why we are free to post our views on a public forum. I am confident we ALL agree that racism is unacceptable. However, there will always be others that don't. If this was racism, posters would not waste time and post childish remarks.

Now, please do not mistaken mine and others for racism and get on with the thread as it should.


Let me present the arguement of "president". No other country should use this term. It is a special elected term for our leader of our country.....

So this is what it is all about? Your crying foul because of the inaccurate use of Datu? Did you ever think that regardless of the martial arts meaning it has taken that maybe it is offensive to many SE Asians or any outsiders some who may be Datus themselves?


So John if I have offended you or yours...

I don't take anything personal unless it becomes personal.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally the title Datu is just that a title. (as refered to in Modern Arnis)
Now, what is wrong is trying to make someone feel bad because they receieved a title from Grandmaster Remy Presas. That is just wrong. What is the person supposed to do? (throw is away) In continuing to use the title they honor Remy Presas. You see it is unfair to beat on this issue because the person recieving it did not give it to themself. For me it is just a title within Modern Arnis no different really than Senior Master or Master of Tapi Tapi.

Now what Rich is trying to convey is that anybody or any nationality can learn the FMA's and be good at it. While I do not know if anyone here thinks differently there have been people in the past who said no you cannot be as good as a born and raised Filipino. That would be incorrect in my opinion.

Bottom line though this thread and the other off shoot threads are good for discussion and I for one appreciate everyone coming on and puttin in their two cents.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[arnisador]

Everyone, please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[Sheldon Bedell]

my mind asks the question

Is the use if the term Datu any different then the use of the words sensei or sifu when used in "karate" circles.
From what I have read it seems the title is one bestowed in the islands for various reasons and seems to indicate a chieftain of some respect. If in some of the arts that have originated in the islands, the term is used, how is that any different than the use of words to indicate a teacher of leader in other arts that have traveled from their country of origin to other parts of the world

[langgaw]

Rich,

First of all , are you okey? I do not know what is wrong with you but that trollish point of mine?... ( i don't understand)...does not sound nice. And if you say I make your point in the idea that there is no art too deadly to practice then I would agree with you and I hope that makes you happy ... but you are missing the point. I do not intend to explain further since you have become closed to the gist of it.... the same reference to the monks. I can really see the limitation of your knowledge in this area so I would not push my self there.
Now , with regards to racism. I am 100% with you sir. Racism is bad and racists need to be hanged. They are the cancer of society and they ought to be taken out. We do not need them in this world. they are like terrorists....you know. But racism was not even in mind mind when I stated a fact that natives are better than nonpinoy. you seem to take it personally like it was directed to you....no sir, do not think that way becasue it is a fact, Pinoys have the time to play anytime of the day anywhere in dirt roads, back alleys, backyards, front too, in the middle of the street inside a 6x6 room (as dojo) in the rooftops, etc...than any of you here who practice on schedules and with gears (we can seldom afford anyway) on minimal techniques ....for a fee. Ours is all free ...free bokol, free welts , bruises and we all go home with a smile. I am merely stating a fact and it seems to upset you. I am confused at your reaction and it is this behavior that I yet have to comprehend. Racism sir is bad (implies the person too)and if you were in my shoes ,you would have hanged yurself already because talking about racism is nothing compared to the experiences I have as an asian. So do not ever talk to me about racism because I have been there and here it is again. ..Lucky you..you never experienced it badly.
And when you talk about Nazi sloganns, closing my account and all that deep talk, I hope you understand what you are trying to say because humbly I don't.
Also the elders with you that laugh at my point?..... I have nothing against that because they know who they are laughing at.. I will return my smile to them and you sir.
Pleaase do not address me with anything because I do not have a tiltle, belt trophies, written claims, certificates and all borloloys. You can call me Robert or langaw. I can call you whatever you want me to address you and I absolutely have no problem with that. I can only tell you that what I carry with me is the art that can never be taken away, will not fade, will not age and will remain pure, original and true art of arnis. I sense skepticism now but just to stir up more researches in the future ....what about this............Do you know that somewhere among us, a hidden warrior trained by Iti Anciong and Inkoy Nene existed and acknowledge only by a few BIG NAMES and they yhemselves do not want ot divulge it no matter what? Just a klinker.....and addressess?... I do not aspire to have one.

You are one of the most open minded person here and I admire you for that.
Datu is also given to the son in case of death...still subject to approval by the elders. The heir still undersgoes the same rigid rituals and trainings and education. Counsel is always sought by a Datu in whatever decision needed when regard to the tribe. He also seeks counsel in domestic problems but always has the last say (like a stamp on a statement).

Nagtahud,

Langaw

[JohnJ]

Personally the title Datu is just that a title. (as refered to in Modern Arnis) Now, what is wrong is trying to make someone feel bad because they receieved a title from Grandmaster Remy Presas.

Who is trying to make someone feel bad? The title Datu was never in question or part of the original thread until recently. And just because the late Remy Presas issued the title does not mean it is acceptable by the majority of his countrymen and other places aorund the globe. Others deem the title for the sole purpose of tribal hierarchy. Using it any different may be or is seen as culturally insensitive.


Now what Rich is trying to convey is that anybody or any nationality can learn the FMA's and be good at it.

I think everyone is clear on what he was saying. I think the question is why it is being raised?


While I do not know if anyone here thinks differently there have been people in the past who said no you cannot be as good as a born and raised Filipino.

Exactly. That is why this issue or concern does not belong in this thread. You just said it, "people in the past" NOT now. As far as being better, I agree anyone can become good BUT there is sometimes a different sense when it IS part of your culture or bloodline. Convictions, beliefs, traditions, mysticism etc. more acceptable. And sometimes this is where differences of opinions surface. Is it a form of racism then, NO!

[langgaw]

Mr Petenerd,

I thought I could not explain it any better than you. My point then was not so hard to understand after all. Salamat po

A Datu can also have that tiltle by virtue of his riches and claims ( usually terretories). Info..

[langgaw]

Mr Sepuku,

Info........A title of Datu is considered a sacred title in itself according to tribes in certain localities in the olden times. This title has been used and abused since then.

Langaw

[James Miller]

Mr Sepuku,

Info........A title of Datu is considered a sacred title in itself according to tribes in certain localities in the olden times. This title has been used and abused since then.

Langaw
Really?

[Rocky]

Why would the use of the term Datu bother anyone, as long as said Datu is not representing an art or group he is not affiliated with. Does Tim Hartman claim to be Datu of Pekit Tersia? Balintawak, Cuentada Demano? No he is Datu of his group of Modern Arnis, thats it, thats all their is too it!!!


As everyone becomes more and more a global community you have to understand that "Words" are going to be cross culturized, Americans are now Sensi's, Guru's and what not....In America many African American's hold the Rank of Master, and have white students affectionatly refering to them as Master, 400 years ago the word Master had a far more sinister, and dispicable meaning... 1000 years ago it was really
something special to be a Kung Fu Master Now there is one on every block......Just 20 years ago their was only 2 people in the U.S doing Original Balintawak Under Gm Buot.......Times have and are changing.....and so are the use of various words through out the world.....Datu, Guru, Master, Grandmaster are just titles unfortunately as this happens the value of the title is often times degraded, but that is just the way it is.......most of us agree that 30 years ago when someone refered to someone else as a master, that was quite a powerful compliment, but now adays, you must learn all you can about a person or potential instructor, and you can no longer just take a title in front of there name at face value.....But hey look at boxing for example 30 years ago there was the WBA and the WBC chanpionsships, and usually one champ carried both titles......Now adays there are up to 10 world champions for each weight division..... in the 35 years I have been in the Martial Arts I have seen so many changes, I use to get outraged by ranks and what not, but now I take it with a grain of salt, does it really hurt you that someone else has a rank or title you don't think they should have?? And lets not forget that many of these titles are given out by people that are native to the original host land,,,,,,wether it be China, Japan, Philipines or what ever so maybe the problem comes from them and not the people with te tilte.....That was my final assesment, once I decided not to worry about it I just realized that hey if a GM of a system wants to call this person this or that its none of my business or anyone elses......Sometimes they dole out these titles for good reasons....i.e in Tim's case he was someone who stepped up to the plate to lead a group and push Modern Arnis forward so GM Presas rewarded him with a title of Datu, no biggie it doesn't hurt anyone......However i will also note when things were done for the wrong reason as in the title of Master of Tapi Tapi,,,,that is a slap in the face to the practioner himeslef.


Rocky

[Rocky]

Really?


:Eyecrazy: :roflmao: :laugh: :schild24:

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

First of all , are you okey? I do not know what is wrong with you but that trollish point of mine?... ( i don't understand)...does not sound nice. And if you say I make your point in the idea that there is no art too deadly to practice then I would agree with you and I hope that makes you happy ... but you are missing the point. I do not intend to explain further since you have become closed to the gist of it.... the same reference to the monks. I can really see the limitation of your knowledge in this area so I would not push my self there.
Now , with regards to racism. I am 100% with you sir. Racism is bad and racists need to be hanged. They are the cancer of society and they ought to be taken out. We do not need them in this world. they are like terrorists....you know. But racism was not even in mind mind when I stated a fact that natives are better than nonpinoy. you seem to take it personally like it was directed to you....no sir, do not think that way becasue it is a fact, Pinoys have the time to play anytime of the day anywhere in dirt roads, back alleys, backyards, front too, in the middle of the street inside a 6x6 room (as dojo) in the rooftops, etc...than any of you here who practice on schedules and with gears (we can seldom afford anyway) on minimal techniques ....for a fee. Ours is all free ...free bokol, free welts , bruises and we all go home with a smile. I am merely stating a fact and it seems to upset you. I am confused at your reaction and it is this behavior that I yet have to comprehend. Racism sir is bad (implies the person too)and if you were in my shoes ,you would have hanged yurself already because talking about racism is nothing compared to the experiences I have as an asian. So do not ever talk to me about racism because I have been there and here it is again. ..Lucky you..you never experienced it badly.
And when you talk about Nazi sloganns, closing my account and all that deep talk, I hope you understand what you are trying to say because humbly I don't.
Also the elders with you that laugh at my point?..... I have nothing against that because they know who they are laughing at.. I will return my smile to them and you sir.
Pleaase do not address me with anything because I do not have a tiltle, belt trophies, written claims, certificates and all borloloys. You can call me Robert or langaw. I can call you whatever you want me to address you and I absolutely have no problem with that. I can only tell you that what I carry with me is the art that can never be taken away, will not fade, will not age and will remain pure, original and true art of arnis. I sense skepticism now but just to stir up more researches in the future ....what about this............Do you know that somewhere among us, a hidden warrior trained by Iti Anciong and Inkoy Nene existed and acknowledge only by a few BIG NAMES and they yhemselves do not want ot divulge it no matter what? Just a klinker.....and addressess?... I do not aspire to have one.

You are one of the most open minded person here and I admire you for that.
Datu is also given to the son in case of death...still subject to approval by the elders. The heir still undersgoes the same rigid rituals and trainings and education. Counsel is always sought by a Datu in whatever decision needed when regard to the tribe. He also seeks counsel in domestic problems but always has the last say (like a stamp on a statement).

Nagtahud,

Langaw

Robert,

Thank you for your reply.

As to racism, I have faced it my whole life. In a predominently White town I grew up as the "Wet-Back", "Half-Breed", "Sand-N...", "Camel-Jockey", and many others. I grew up thinking a fair fight was four of them and one of me.

So, if I or anyone else was able to train any time I want, such as in the car, or at work at their desk, or while walking to a vehicle or in a garage, or, ..., . My point is that you are discriminating without knowing. You are judging without knowing. And you take offense at me for replying in kind.

To answer your questions, I am fine and have no problems with this, but will call you and others, on this issue. And yes there is discrimination amongst Asia and also with in other sub-cultures. It is nto always caucasion on the rest of the world. Asian can be racist against other asians, or Pacific Islanders for having even darker or lighter skins. Or not .... (* Pick some other thing to discriminate by *)

So while we agree that Racism is bad. I still see an issue that you still think you are free to make comments that insult others and other cultures. Fine. You think I am red in the face, and being part American Indian I will let that slide as a non-racist comment, I will just ignore you and your comments. You say I do not understand, that is fine for your opinion. I say you do not understand that others in any culture can learn the surivial mechanisms that are required to be able to execute certain techniques. Yet, I am the one whi is all wrong here.

It is just a little frustrating to see almsot everytime some one in the PI who gets an internet conenction and then makes these comments that no one else will understand the TRUE FMA. No one else will be able to learn it, and all the best the only good training is in the PI. You can take it for what it is worth, but I still find your comments offensive and insulting to any non-native to the PI. But, as all others are willing to just to continue to swallow your words and continue with implied discrimination, I will let it lie and stop.

You win, I was wrong.

My apologies.

[langgaw]

Rich,

You still dont get it do you and you are still at it but that is a mark of a good warrior.we will just both ignore the matter because it is getting us nowhere. .Apologies accepted............another trait of a good arnisador is having no problem apologizing. By the way do you know that some of the great known knife fighters are of American Indian descent?

Rich, what are your thoughts about about mixing Kung Fu with the sayaw of arnis. We have tried it and though a bit awkward, it is very much feasible. What do you think?

...-rd-

[langgaw]

my other two cents.........
FMA practitioners who learn the art in the place of origin would certainly learn a little bit more than those learning from here for obvious resasons. Also take note that the techniques usually taught abroad are done by numbers, drills and finite moves. It is always argued that the stick can only come from finite number of angles. TRaditional arnis proves this thinking wrong. That is where the natives excel....for info purposes.

Langaw

[arnisador]

FMA practitioners who learn the art in the place of origin would certainly learn a little bit more than those learning from here for obvious resasons.

That's not at all obvious to me, and indeed I do take some offense at it--not just for myself but on behalf of my and others' teachers! I do not think that the native Filipino teachers I and others have had and seen here are "holding back" on us Americans!

Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Ted Buot, Ray Dionaldo, etc., etc., etc., all teach here in the States. How much better can it be there?

[JohnJ]

That's not at all obvious to me, and indeed I do take some offense at it--not just for myself but on behalf of my and others' teachers! I do not think that the native Filipino teachers I and others have had and seen here are "holding back" on us Americans!


Take offense to what? There is no need to get upset. I am as American as any of you. And I do see some of the differences in the way they think and train back home. Maybe you need to better understand the culture and/or how the art is still preserved back in the the PI. FMA has always been family or tribal in some ways. Therefore, there is always a sense of closeness, closed door and secrecy. It is not about secret techniques but did you ever think that it is up to the instructors discretion to teach what and how he wants. There good be a number of reason why it is taught differently or with limitations. Character and trust is one thing. Sometimes an instructor needs to take on a student from elsewhere because it is his livelihood and need the money. Does he give the art away for one bulk sum? NO, he establishes a relationship, gains the trust and tests the character. This is essential for anyone teaching. Now, there are others who choose not to teach on a broader spectrum or maybe to foreigners but that is his choosing. I don't see it as form of racism. And if you believe this does not happen in every art in it's homeland, you need to research further.


Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Ted Buot, Ray Dionaldo, etc., etc., etc., all teach here in the States. How much better can it be there

Remy and Ted are probably the only good examples cause they saw Balintawak from the old days in Cebu. Dan and Ray developed their knowledge and skill here. It is just taught differently, not better just different. In fact, most do not have all the drills and formal curriculums that we are accustomed to here. And basics alone may take up a good part of the beginning years or be all you need. There is no such thing as "advanced" techniques. Advanced is being able to use you basics againt anything at anytime. I believe this was the point langgaw was trying to share.

[Rocky]

Remy and Ted are probably the only good examples cause they saw Balintawak from the old days in Cebu. Dan and Ray developed their knowledge and skill here. It is just taught differently, not better just different. In fact, most do not have all the drills and formal curriculums that we are accustomed to here. And basics alone may take up a good part of the beginning years or be all you need. There is no such thing as "advanced" techniques. Advanced is being able to use you basics againt anything at anytime. I believe this was the point langgaw was trying to share.

There are many other's who train old style here in the U.S. Leo Gaji is here, the lastra Brothers, Gm Abon, GM Toabada ect ect.... However many of the old timers that are here do tend to mellow things abit here in the U.S but that also depends on the student, if you puch and train hard and show your worthyness you get more......I use pit Gm Presas against GM Gaji all the time when I was younger, Remy would show me something, then a few weks later I would learn a Pekit Technique to counter Remys tech, then I would go back to Remy and show him his technique was countered by one of Leo's....which used to get Remy's blood up, so Remy would teach me something else, And because I wasn't affraid to fight he taught me in a traditional way much more combative, and beleive me much more painful, his Balintawak is very powerfull and direct, however his was designed to fight against other Balintawak poeple....So when I started training with GM Buot in 1982 I would pit his and Remy's skills against each other, I would tell GM Buot that Remy said to counter something GM Buot taought me like this....then GM Buot would show me a counter and I would go back and forth between them......

So what I am getting at is the training here is just as good if you are willing to dig for it....

and to the guy that said a 2yr student can rarely beat a 10yr student or something like that!!! Well that may be true in your camp but it ain't in my camp or many of my friends....Hell Tom Biso with just 3 years of training went to the Philipines and won grand champion in the senior masters division of a live stick very little pading tourniment back in 1979...

in th the early 80's I fought and beat several senior instructors in Full contact. live stick, fencing mask only tournments......My friend Jim Birchfield did the same..... Of course these were not scor a point and quit tounments they were continuous action and much more painfull I can assure you, in fact we trained like that on almost a nightly basis back in the 80's ...I had a student Steve who was only training with us for about 8 months ad he cleaned house in our school and in fact broke two of my ribs fighting so ........I guess what i am saying is its all about the individual....now also keep in mind that just because a student beats a higer rank doesn't mean the student is better, the higher rank may still have lots to offer!!!!!!!! His or her fighting days may just be behind them!!!


Rocky

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nicely put Rocky!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[JohnJ]

There are many other's who train old style here in the U.S. Leo Gaji is here, the lastra Brothers, Gm Abon, GM Toabada ect ect.... However many of the old timers that are here do tend to mellow things abit here in the U.S but that also depends on the student, if you puch and train hard and show your worthyness you get more......I use pit Gm Presas against GM Gaji all the time

Rocky, I am aware that there are some others but reflected only on the names that were mentioned. However, I would tend to believe that the training has evolved from the way it was done back home and for several reasons. Be it for a sense progress, formal curriculum, personal interpretation and development. Some practitioners would generally not find an appeal to the "old school" ways because to this day it remains rudimentary.

As far as sudent diligence, yes...it is a fact that the harder you work physically and mentally, the more you can learn. However, many instructors cater teaching on a more personal one-to-one level and no matter how much diligence is shown that student will be guided in a different direction with different plans. Character and tust has so much to do with this. Citing examples of countering methods is a good point you raised cause the Manongs back home were big with that. To further ilustrate, some things were not shared due to the fact that they were devised as the counter techniques for the system itself.

[langgaw]

I do not know what you are taking offense to but hear this, Filipino teachers do not hold back on the person worthy of it. (In case he passess on the art ). But all would think twice if there is a hint of queationable attitude in a student. As for the rest of the students there are variuos reasons to hold back...could be hard to teacwhich might end up hurting himself, might be an air of arrogance, might be handicapped, might be fishing only, might be hundreds of it.
Mr Inosanto, Mr Presas and others are no doubt good teachers here in the US but personally it is better over there in the islands.Do not take offense on this...instead try and wonder.....could it be true or is langawtotally wrong?
MR JohnJ said there is no advance technique. Many may have said this before but I bow to Mr JJ for hearing it from him the first time.This is very much 100% I agree. The techniques are right there in front of you and you just have to see it . If you go for what is taught to ONLY then you are stuck (by whoever big names you learned it from) A person can write a novel, abook, achapter, a paragraph, a sentence, a word....similarly. the leters make up all these. when you start using the letters where they make sense, then you advance and on and on... In arnis, The basics ar the letters and word and par..etc. ..and then you create a book. I can only explain this much..
Mr Rocky has a good exoerience so that he can explain better the diference between then and now. The fight thingis have to adapt to the times and I am sure Mr Rocky wouls till prefer the previous fight system. I feel proud when I encounter people who were there because they feel something (at least to himself) special...topass on to their kids and friends. The 80,s tournament , please tell us more about it later. Enjoy the art.

Langaw

[arnisador]

I do not know what you are taking offense to but hear this, Filipino teachers do not hold back on the person worthy of it.

I think this clears up the matter! I can easily imagine teaching styles being different in the Phil., and I understand the impact of having close familial or cultural ties encouraging an instructor to be more open (as we saw with Kung Fu in the Chinese-American community). It isn't that any one group can do the art better--just that those closer to the instructor, in whatever sense, may be given more attention.

[langgaw]

.....learning is good, understanding makes it better.....langgaw

[oosh]

"Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Ted Buot, Ray Dionaldo, etc., etc., etc., all teach here in the States. How much better can it be there?"

That post comes across somewhat arrogant aswell as ignorant, though I suspect that you did not intend to write it the way it reads. I have read similar sentiments from U.S FMAists on other forums in regards to studying in the PI, the very source of the art we all study. This "why bother going to study at the source, when we have just as good here" stance completely baffles me if I am to be honest. In my opinion it is important on so many levels to visit the PI, not just to further one's progression within the art, but to experience the culture that gave birth to the art.

[arnisador]

I'd love to visit the Philippines for just that reason. No argument.

[Rocky]

"Dan Inosanto, Remy Presas, Ted Buot, Ray Dionaldo, etc., etc., etc., all teach here in the States. How much better can it be there?"

That post comes across somewhat arrogant aswell as ignorant, though I suspect that you did not intend to write it the way it reads. I have read similar sentiments from U.S FMAists on other forums in regards to studying in the PI, the very source of the art we all study. This "why bother going to study at the source, when we have just as good here" stance completely baffles me if I am to be honest. In my opinion it is important on so many levels to visit the PI, not just to further one's progression within the art, but to experience the culture that gave birth to the art.

I don't think anyone is saying its not worth training in the Philipines, of course it would be great to go back to where it all started and see the culture and walk on the very ground that many of our instructors played on..... But I beleive there is more truth in the fact that many of the Grand Master are in the U.S then you want to give credit too......My example is this .....how could learning Anciongs Original Balintawak in the Philipines be better then learning it under his successor GM Ted Buot right here in the U.S.A???? Pekiti Tersia right here in the U.S under GM Leo Gaji..........Now to go to the Philipines to see and experience the flavor of the many great GM's still there would be awesome.....

now as a whole I would expect that in the Philipines they may train and paly harder, then many here in the U.S.....do to the lawyers here in the U.S sueing everyone for anything...But even so if you look there are those here in the U.S that train just as hard.


Rocky

[Brian R. VanCise]

...But even so if you look there are those here in the U.S that train just as hard.


Rocky

That we most certainly do, Rocky!

Having said that, I plan on making it to the Phillipines to train in a few years. No doubt it will be a great time.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[kruzada]

I don't think anyone is saying its not worth training in the Philipines, of course it would be great to go back to where it all started and see the culture and walk on the very ground that many of our instructors played on..... But I beleive there is more truth in the fact that many of the Grand Master are in the U.S then you want to give credit too......My example is this .....how could learning Anciongs Original Balintawak in the Philipines be better then learning it under his successor GM Ted Buot right here in the U.S.A???? Pekiti Tersia right here in the U.S under GM Leo Gaji

Many instructors that teach the same art, have different approaches and insights that make learning even the exact same technique or style from many different sources very worthwhile IMO. No two individuals teach, or fight in exactly the same manner. It just isn't possible.

I always encourage my students to study from as many instructors in our system as possible, because each and every one has something unique to offer.

I think the same can be said of Masters and Grandmasters here and in the P.I. . A perfect example would be the Presas brothers; GM Remy, GM Ernesto and GM Roberto. Each of these Grandmasters has their own favorite range, styles and techniques. Neither one has/had a better approach to teaching Arnis, but all three have/had something unique to impart to their students.

I envy individuals such as Master Cristino Vasquez, Master Rene Tongson, Master Samuel "Bambit" Dulay and others (IMAFP), who have had the opportunity to train with all three of the Presas brothers.

There are many great Masters of the FMA right here in the U.S., that is true. But as many styles as there are that are available in the U.S., there are so many more in the P.I. that have a relatively limited international presence, but have just as much to offer as any other style of FMA. Such as W.E.D.O. Combat Arnis, Tres Puntas, Doblete Rapelon, Yaw Yan and many more.

-Rich Acosta

[Datu Tim Hartman]

On this topic,
I was talking to professor Presas year ago and told him that I was planning on going to the Philippines. His comment to me was “You don’t have to go, I am here”. Then I told him I wanted to go primarily for cultural reasons. His response to that was that I should go. As far as which is better, I don’t think you can come up with a definite answer. There are advantages to training in both places that the other does not have. I travel the world teaching martial arts, and everywhere I go, I see things that I bring back to my school. In addition, there also ideas and methods that I spread while teaching my seminars. No one has a monopoly on the material. We can ALL learn from each other.

Now for this thread..
This topic was started as an attack on me due to comments I made about officiating at a tournament. Obviously, these people have started up accounts on our forum, and instead of trying to state their position from a logical point of view they have lashed out and attacked me. The result of this is the beginnings of a feud on this thread. For those who don’t know, I am the owner of FMA Talk. I have started this forum to promote Filipino martial arts in a positive manner and to bring our community together for a stronger presence in the martial arts world. This thread is not helping the matter any. Instead it is driving a wedge between us and pushing us further apart. I am now taking action in closing this thread. For those who have joined FMAT to abuse it, if you continue these actions you will be banned from this website. In case anyone thinks I am overreacting, I have already had conversations with people who were contemplating quitting, due to some of the actions of our newest members of late.

This thread is now closed!