Double Baston 12 attacks

[astenroo]

Hello!

I am in the middle of learning the basic 12 attacks of double baston. Now I have a few questions concerning the "nomenclature"

The first six sets are named: Broken 6, Upper 8, Lower 8, Reverse 8, Fluid 8 vertical cuts and Butterfly. As of the five first: why are they named the way they are?

I am just curious because of my involvement in the recently founded local PTI training group. When we get to double baston, I am sure someone will ask "Why are they named the way they are?".

-Alex

[Jack Latorre]

Hello Astenroo/Alex--

To teach others, sometimes labeling is very helpful.

"Upper 8", although being a series of 6 strikes, gets it's name from how it was initially taught to beginners who had problems with coordination. It was broken down into 8 motions, rather than 6 strikes. Esstentially it is named after the trraining-wheels version of its pedagogy.

"Broken 6" doesn't mean it doesn't work...it just denotates the flow is slightly broken from the doble baston norm of "Upper 8"...by the use of the payong/umbrella movements.

"Lower 8" is named simply because of the inclusion of lower strikes to the opponent's knees, as seen in the prefix of the Break-In/Break-Out drill (Pasak Lo'ob/Pasak Labas).

"Reverse 8" is then the reverse of the standard "Upper 8"...ascending strikes from angles 3 and 4, as opposed to descending strikes from angles 1 and 2.

"Fluid 8 Vertical Cuts" are just that...essentially what one sees in "Upper 8" but delivered with very thin angles to appear basically vertical in delivery (and with the associated power).

As in any martial pursuit, the nomenclature is a mnemonic device to help learning...it is the functional and purposeful movement that ultimately matters.

I hope this helps.

Jack A. Latorre

[astenroo]

Hi jack!

Yes, this was very helpful :) One more question, though. The upper 8 has six strikes (eg. 1-2-2-1-2-2), so there we basically have 6 of the 8 movements. Are the two remaining movements sidesteps?

-Alex

[Jack Latorre]

Astenroo/Alex--

Negative...the eight movements involve not only the strikes, but incorporate the associated chambering so that beginners could understand where their hand needed to be at any one time.

From the right side chamber...

-Rgt. hand #1
-Rgt. hand pulls to left side chamber/Lft. hand #2
-Rgt. hand #2 jab/Lft. hand pulls to lft. hand chamber
-Rgt. hand pulls back into left side chamber

Repeat now from the left side chamber, reversing the strike orientations. And now you have 8 movements...more or less...

Once the coordination is achieved, then things like speed, timing, footwork regarding relative position to your opponent, footwork regarding power generation, accuracy towards a moving platform, accuracy from a moving platform, et cetera are the things to be developed next.

Good luck in the training and let me know if there's anything else I can answer for you.

Regards,

Jack A. Latorre

[astenroo]

ah yes of course :)

Thank you,

alex

[DM03]

Your description of Upper 8, Broken 6, as well as Reverse 8 is incorrect.

Upper 8 is not so designated to be a crutch for beginners with coordination problems. Nearly all Doble Baston attack patterns present similar challenges to initiates. The 1st and 2nd counts of Upper 8 are specifically executed with a two-count motion, before the 3rd count is executed. This actually presents students with a tactically superior understanding of “where their hands need(ed) to be at any one time”. I will not discuss the purpose of this because it is formulated to defeat other strikes through its manipulation. Your angles of attack are also incorrect – count 3 of the Upper 8 attack pattern is a reverse, or upward, Diagonal backhand strike and not a #2 downward Diagonal strike. This would be a left hand #4 strike, from the 5 Attacks of Tirsia Corto. This applies also for count 2 of the Broken 6 attack pattern. Likewise, there is no Reverse 8, or “reverse of the standard Upper 8” because you cannot duplicate the attributes of the 1st and 2nd counts of Upper 8 with reverse Diagonal strikes.

Additionally, “Fluid 8/Vertical Cuts” is an incorrect identifier of the Seguidas strikes with Doble Baston. This is a six (6) count attack that is actually two Diagonals and then a Vertical slash. You correctly stated that these strikes can be delivered almost Vertical hence the “Vertical Cuts” title. More power, however, is generated with Diagonal strikes than Vertical strikes, and it is used to finish your opponent with fast, multiple slashes after disabling one of your opponent’s weapons. This attack is also executed with Reverse Diagonal and Vertical strikes, but again incorrectly identified as Reverse 8. Seguidas is the method of Centerline attacks (with other advanced attacks as well) and therefore the appropriate title for this Doble attack.

Your reference to the nomenclature as pneumonic devices appears short-sighted. Far from being a simple memorization tool, the PTK system teaches that the nomenclature is the KEY to understanding the purpose and function of the Attack systems of Pekiti-Tirsia – and one sees this applied consistently throughout the Doce Methodos, Contradas and Contra-Tirsia Dubla-Dos. In this specific instance, the Attack patterns of Upper 8, Broken 8, and Lower 8 are all part of the Tirsia Corto method of the Doce Methodos (the original and authentic systemology of Pekiti-Tirsia) applied with Doble Kalis/Baston. They represent the Fluid 5 Attacks, Broken 5 Attacks and Break-In/Break-Out Attack forms, tactics, and techniques of Solo Kalis/Baston respectively. This also clearly highlights the true transferability of the Foundation and Advanced methodologies across any weapon category – the hallmark of a highly developed weapons combat system. The System Outlines can be found on this page (http://www.ptkgo.com/PTKGO/SYSTEM.html).

Your instruction may be the style used by PTI, but it is not the execution specifically taught by Grand Tuhon Gaje, the Supreme Grandmaster of the Pekiti-Tirsia system, which all students of Pekiti-Tirsia deserve to know.

[lhommedieu]

Dino,

I doubt whether any beginner-level student reading this thread understands a word of what you are saying. There is a larger issue here, moreover: you are confusing the use of vocabulary with the application of technical skill. Neil Caullife and his student (these are friends of yours, I believe?) came up to PTI's summer camp last year, and worked out with me, Jack Latorre, and other PTI members. Perhaps you can ask them whether Jack knows what he's talking about?

Best,

Steve Lamade

[arnisador]

Your instruction may be the style used by PTI

...which seems quite appropriate, as this is the PTI forum...

[DM03]

(sigh)
Steve. Ok, let’s try this again.

I would not normally feel the need to resort to bullet points, but a pattern seems to be emerging where your comprehension of my posts on this forum is spectacularly poor.


• The post was not intended for beginning-level students.

• There is no indication that it is addressed to beginning-level students.

• The post addresses Mr. Latorre, whom I assume is an experienced PTI instructor, and his descriptions.

• Alex/Astenroo had Mr. Latorre “explain” the nomenclature not once, but twice – beginning-level students are pesky like that, with their whole “not getting it the first time”…thing.

• Granted, I would not at all be surprised if the post confuses beginning-level PTI students.

• The useful understanding of the “vocabulary” is the KEY to the tactically correct application of the technical “skill”. So no, I am not confused on that point.

• I have to assume Mr. Latorre knows what he is talking about, as he identifies himself as a PTI instructor and he is discussing material from the PTI curriculum.

• What is in question is Mr. Latorre’s understanding of the actual Pekiti-Tirsia system and its training methodology, based on the instruction he has received.

• As to the individuals we seem to mutually know, let me suggest we forget you brought that up, as I can assure you pulling on that thread will yield you an awkward and uncomfortable result.

It is an affront to those who train, teach and preserve the authentic system of Pekiti-Tirsia for others to take up the name and augment, change, rearrange or otherwise distort and mismanage this system for lack of having continued or completed their training in this system, or with the idea that their own interpretations stand equal to the actual methodology – tested, proven and validated over generations. Pekiti-Tirsia International chooses to operate as if the Grand Master of Pekiti-Tirsia is no longer with us, when in fact he is alive and well and, more importantly, still accessible and available in 2010 to any practitioner and instructor for the continued magnification of their understanding of PTK and their overall development. Any organization that continues in this fashion only moves further and further away from the source material of this combat system and from truly actualizing its purpose, principles and practices.

[lhommedieu]

Dino,

Generally when someone offers you food for thought it's a good idea to think about what you're going to say before you say it. I thought that you and Neil were friends and that therefore you might be inclined to listen to reason, but what we get from you (how many times is this now?) is yet another silly diatribe. And are you actually threatening me? Please stop, sweetheart.

Let's just agree to disagree lest we embarrass our teachers any further...

Best,

Steve

[Carol]

PTI vs. PTK has already been discussed ad nauseum. Challenge posts are against the rules (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?2-FMA-Talk-Rules) and can result in loss of membership.

Play nice, folks, or take the debate off of FMATalk.

- Carol
- FMATalk Admin

[kaliman1978]

it's post like this that makes the world think that ptk guys are a bunch of jerks and cannot get along with one another. This is old already. I don't know if it is realized that post like this gives ptk practitioners worldwide a reputation that is certainly undeserving, and that reputation is one of arrogance which isn't the case by far for alot of my brothers in the art. If you would like to train PTI by all means do so and HAVE FUN DOING IT. Tuhon Bill is certainly one the many skilled 1st generation students of Grand Tuhon Gaje and I am sure has ALOT to offer. Also if you would like to train doce methodos I advise you to do the same and have fun. To imply that one camp is "authentic" and the other camp isn't is a sign of insecurity and arrogance. I mean are you saying that what Tuhon Bill, Erwin Ballarta, and Eric Knauss and others learned was not authentic? that is silly. Build a bridge and get over yourself. Let's all get along and play nice or not play at all. If things are like this now just imagine how it will be when the old man is gone.....sad!

[Bob Hubbard]

Traditionally, when you have a section dedicated to a specific art/org/etc the way that group does things is "right". That means in the PTI forum, PTI's methods are "correct". If you are from the other PT family, this site offers an area for them to discuss and be "correct". This functions much in the same way that one can visit England and drive on the left, or Canada and drive on the right. You are still driving, just which is the right way to do so will vary based on your location. You don't go to England and drive on the right, then bitch about everyone else doing it "wrong" there. It's just not proper. Savvy? Good. Then lets get back to discussing hitting people in the head with sticks and sharp things. ;)

[artvilla2]

PTI vs. PTK has already been discussed ad nauseum. Challenge posts are against the rules (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?2-FMA-Talk-Rules) and can result in loss of membership.

Play nice, folks, or take the debate off of FMATalk.

- Carol
- FMATalk Admin
greetings ! as a point of clarification I wish to inquire as to how a challenge was implied by Dino in his thread, I did not read anything to that effect(phyiscal). Kindly refer to the said statement, perhaps review and carefully read what he was trying to express. From my humble POV He was trying to avoid divulging any further discussion in relation to the suggestion by Mr. Lamade. He did speak with the individuals concerned and decided to keep their feedback to himself. A suspension might be too harsh a move .I agree that we will have our differences in opinion but perhaps a warning would suffice. I dont make the rules in this forum and you have the authority to do as you deem appropriate. let us continue to learn and appreciate the art, friendly discussion with respect and understanding....


salamat Po,

Artvilla

[Jack Latorre]

Hello All--

I come back to this thread and find this train wreck. Sorry your genuine question garnered the negativity, Astenroo/Alex...

Others, notably "kaliman1978", have said it already. Pekiti-Tirsia is a great system, regardless of political affiliation. However, the over-zealous posting hides that, at times.

There are folks who have drawn a line and chosen a side. Fine. Whatever.

There are folks who simply choose an opportunity to study whatever they can in an effort to see both sides of the coin. No harm, no foul. I certainly don't make them choose. They are intelligent enough to shop around to train and live freely.

And then there are folks who may be on the fence...who may be new to the FMA scene or unsure of the unfortunate political land mines inherent at times. Posts like Mr. Martinez's help make their decisions much more easily. And the decisions are not so much based on who has the real "secret handshake". It is based on whether or not one even HAS to learn a "secret handshake" at all...or whether they suspect they may be taken for a ride...or have to drink this week's chosen Kool-Aid flavor. It's a problem in far too many martial endeavors unfortunately.

As far as me being an experienced PTI instructor, that's for others to decide.

And you can question my actual understanding of the Pekiti-Tirsia system as much as you'd like. It really matters not. The PTI versus PTGO is a false divide for most folks. But I do appreciate you chiming in and trying to invalidate my credentials without ever meeting me. The folks that visit these forums do read these things...and form their own decisions. And they make them more easily with your help.

Be well.

Jack A. Latorre
PTI Mataas Na Guro

P.S.

By the way...as I know "vocabulary" is "key" for you, you misspelled your art on your website...http://www.floridaptk.com/Site/Pekiti-Tirsia_Kali.html. You should fix that.

You're welcome.

[blue]

Getting back to the original question, an alternate explanation I heard about why the "upper eight" is named "eight" is that it looks like a figure 8 when done quick and flowing (figure 8 on its side, to be exact). I make no claim that this is PTI, PTGO or even PT in origin...

[Jack Latorre]

Blue--

It certainly could be...and there's nothing wrong with that analogy either. No need for stepping on eggshells. If it has pedagogical use that helps the student understand, sure. What matters is if you can stop the bad guy with it under duress.

And I don't think the bad guy will ask you who you studied with or who you are affiliated with either.



Best,

Jack A. Latorre

[TuhonBill]

I want to second what Bob Hubbard said. Let's have some sense of prospective here guys. Pekiti-Tirsia is a martial art, not a religion. Let's not argue what is or is not official dogma. Furthermore, this is a PTI forum. Not too long after I separated PTI from PTGO I began calling what I teach the “Pekiti-Tirsia International System,” since it really is different from the Pekiti-Tirsia Tuhon Gaje is currently teaching. The flip side of this is that the PTI curriculum is as close as I can humanly make it to what I learned under Tuhon Gaje in the 70's and 80's. I teach the techniques and methods I grew up on. I enjoy teaching them and my students seem to enjoy the way I teach them. If you don’t like the way I teach, then you are free to go learn from someone else.

Guro Jack's description of double stick techniques accurately reflects how I taught him these techniques, and that description is EXACTLY how Tuhon Gaje taught me double stick basics when I first learned this material back in the 70's. The applications Dino wrote about are taught in the counter to counter drill phase of learning these basics. However, let’s try to remember that the original question Alex asked was about nomenclature, ie, why is something that looks like a six count movement called an “8.” Jack gave Alex the reason I gave him just as I gave Jack the reason Tuhon Gaje gave me.

I recently posted a new video on my YouTube channel. It shows Tuhon Gaje's endorsement of me and PTI back in 1996. In the video you'll hear Tuhon Gaje state that he has reviewed and approved the curriculum of PTI (a curriculum that I still use to this day). At that point in time, in addition to a written curriculum, Tuhon Gaje also had the 5 original Lionheart videos I made in 1993 as well as several basic Pekiti-Tirsia videos I made for my students in the early 90's (in addition to all the times Tuhon Gaje saw me teach in the 80’s). You’ll also hear Tuhon Gaje say that I teach the complete Pekiti-Tirsia system “without addition or subtraction.”

I had avoided posting this video for many years. There didn’t seem much point in opening up old wounds. But maybe the video will help prevent our wasting time on arguments about who is more “authentic” when we could be having much more productive discussions.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

[DM03]

Lamade: Am I actually threatening you? Please. Lando Calrissian once said, "build a bridge and get over yourself." This should help make it clear - let's assume I have already spoken with the individuals you mentioned. Now, read what I wrote again. Generally when someone throws you a bone, its a good idea to take it.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thanks Bill for your information I know that everyone here appreciates it in the Pekiti Tirisia International forum.

[DM03]

Arnisador: You, of all people, get it. PTI is a stylization of a combat system. When one takes a system or systematic process and stylizes it according to their own notions of what seems appropriate or their own combative mindset, it perverts the system and the legacy of its development. For example, Jack tells blue a few posts up that its, like, totally cool to call it Upper 8 due to the fact that it kinda looks like an "8". Whatever works, baby. PTK is dead in the hands on instruction like that. It will barely survive another generation with an approach like that. Ever hear of that game called Telephone?

Now I take for granted it is obvious that the physical movement itself is what a person will utilize. Nonetheless, Mr. Latorre would do well to maintain a standard for explaining the relation between those movements and their names that goes beyond "ah well, whatever works". This system can do better than that, for example, "the process for understanding the Doce Methodos is to first understand precisely the translation and definition of the title of each method. The tactics and techniques that comprise each method are not listed in numerically finite form but are rooted in the principles of primary attacks within each combative drill. If the fighter comes to a full and complete understanding for the methods and their principles, then the techniques will always be applied with the proper tactical execution".

*silly diatribe alert*
I take one glass of Kool-Aid and I put it on a table next to another glass of Kool-Aid. Where there was one, there are now two and I call that Addition, for one has been added to another to make two. Or, whatever, you could just say they're cuddling, seeing as how they are so close together now. Or maybe it looks like they're together-ing, no, um, how 'bout communing. Whatever it looks like to you. The system of mathmatics could not exist without the correct understanding between the word and its action, so too should be the standard for a real weapons combat system.

[DM03]

Carol: Ok, account suspended due to challenge post. Now, please show me the "physical challenge" or the overt "threat" Real or perceived?? So let me get this straight, if Mr. Lamade misreads my statement and perceives himself threatened, that is recourse enough to suspend this account? Really? Let me paraphrase what I stated, I can assure you that you will not like the outcome of a certain conversation as it will not shine a favorable light on your position, so best to not bring it up. This is a threat? Fine, in the event I scared you Steve, I am sorry. But honestly, Admins, you jumped the gun on this one.

[DM03]

Hubbard: Frankly, I never understood the need for a PTI section. We are talking about one FMA combat system, regardless of which factions are represented in it. Can FMATalk expect to create new sections in the forum for each variant or style of all the Filipino Martial Arts listed on it? This kind of thinking functions much the same way as saying, our school of skydiving advocates/teaches simply stuffing your chute into the bag and hoping for the best when you pull the cord. Since its "our school", it is correct. We do tend to lose a lot of students though.

As much as folks hate to hear it, there are wrong ways of doing things and there are right ways of doing things. So, Bob, I'm not talking about which side of the road we're driving on - I'm talking about how to operate the bloomin' vehicle! There is a right way to drive a particular car, and there are wrong ways. This is how technology operates successfully. Savvy? Combat tech should be no different. The PTK system is no different.

"Perfected over many generations at the cost of many lives"

D. Marsh, re-read that statement and keep it in mind as you continue to advocate the "its cool for everyone to do their own thing, so long as you just have fun!

Listen, I have fun in a boatload of other areas in my life - I study, train and continue in PTK to learn how to fight, win and survive. And sure, there is great satisfaction in that.

[jwinch2]

. I mean are you saying that what Tuhon Bill, Erwin Ballarta, and Eric Knauss and others learned was not authentic?

What he said...


I also find it interesting that in other places people from various camps in PTK are able to work together and get along just fine, heck they even train side by side and learn from each other with no issues at all. Some, however don't seem to be able to do that. The Texas Kali Association (http://www.texaskali.org/tka/tkamainpage.htm) includes members such as Erwin Ballarta listed as the chief instructor working hand in hand with people like Lelie Buck as president of the organization. I have a very hard time imagining someone with Leslie Buck's reputation being the president of a group with someone who he did not feel was teaching authentic PTK listed as the chief instructor. Not to mention, several other PTK practitioners with very solid reputations. That just doesn't add up.

[DM03]

Latorre: The simple fact of the matter is I disagreed with you. You say one thing, I say it is incorrect and, more importantly, why it is so. I do not need to meet you to do so. And for pete's sake, I hope my post helps give those phantom folks you talk about a perspective on what they are being fed regarding the workings of this system. For these perspectives continue to bring ex-PTI practitioners knocking on the door, looking for something that makes more sense - Magino'os that left, knowing that there had to be more to this system. Kuyas that left, knowing the methodology to be flawed, overly complicted, and indulgent. I hope these posts help point the way to a systemology that makes sense and delivers on what it claims. Folks will choose as they see fit, and that is of course guided by the predilections of their own mindset and make up, but they should know that the ceaseless study of techniques will not save them. Principles that develop the correct attributes, focused by the proper strategies and delivered through appropriate tactics - now that just might do it.

And while the definitions of terms in this system is important to me, I don't necessarily sweat it if I miss an "I" in Tirsia once every couple o' hundred times I've written the word down. But ok, wow. Got me on that one, Jack.

[DM03]

Jason, while I understand your zeal in general, the paragraph you wrote is loaded with assumptions and a general lack of understanding of the historical connections between certain parties. Solid reputations often only appear as such because that is the image certain folks would like to convey, even while it belies certain other realities. Now, you could fully address your own puzzlement - but it would require you do a lot of digging, a lot of networking and research with a lot of folks from all the PTK groups. It is quite an investment of time. I know - I have spent the last few years doing just that. It is critical to get ALL sides of a story, Jason - from there one can form their own conclusions.

Eric Knauss had the good sense to call what he ended up doing something different - hence my original statement about those that just "take up the name". Did Ballarta know the Pasugat/Pasunod flow that underlies the foundation and advanced systems, my research tells me that while he was very skilled, no he did not.

Tom Bisio and the Doce Methodos... now that is a different story.

[Bob Hubbard]

Hubbard: Frankly, I never understood the need for a PTI section. We are talking about one FMA combat system, regardless of which factions are represented in it. Can FMATalk expect to create new sections in the forum for each variant or style of all the Filipino Martial Arts listed on it? This kind of thinking functions much the same way as saying, our school of skydiving advocates/teaches simply stuffing your chute into the bag and hoping for the best when you pull the cord. Since its "our school", it is correct. We do tend to lose a lot of students though.

As much as folks hate to hear it, there are wrong ways of doing things and there are right ways of doing things. So, Bob, I'm not talking about which side of the road we're driving on - I'm talking about how to operate the bloomin' vehicle! There is a right way to drive a particular car, and there are wrong ways. This is how technology operates successfully. Savvy? Combat tech should be no different. The PTK system is no different.

The bottom line here is that there are -2- Pekiti forums because there has been significant discord between a few vocal members of the 2 main organizations. The solution was to split them. If you have a problem with this, take it up with the forum owner Datu Tim Hartman. I just keep the server serving and software softwaring here.

While you are technically correct, "combat tech should be no different." you are wrong stating "The PTK system is no different.". I'm afraid it is. This section is not intended for the discussion of Leo Gaje's PTK system, but the PTI PT system. While they share a name, and a core and a number of techniques, at the end of the day, they are different arts. There was a "fork in the road, and both went down different forks". You can define the relationship however you want, brothers, cousins, red headed step child, bastard son, whatever. Don't care. But at the end, if they call an upward strike #5 and you call it #4, here it IS #5. Rather than argue here, go enrich the PT section. Or don't. I really don't care. But Mr. Latorre is welcome to teach on my floor any day.

[jwinch2]

s. Solid reputations often only appear as such because that is the image certain folks would like to convey, even while it belies certain other realities.

Dino,

I appreciate the thought out response.

In order to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you suggesting that Leslie Buck's reputation is not deserved? Or, were you referring to Erwin Ballarta or even someone else with that statement? Or, was I misunderstanding you entirely?

I don't want to misinterpret your comments which is so easy to do when only dealing with the written word on forums such as these.

Thanks again,

Jason

[kaliman1978]

does it really matter that the 1st generation guys knew Pasugat/Pasunod? Really? What they did know is how to fight and that's what it all boils down to in the end can you go when it's time to get things done. You can know all the drills in the world but if when you put the headgear on you can't do anything but toe point and hit my hand like a tag game then the knowledge is useless.

[lhommedieu]

Dear Dino,

Nope - not scared of you. Why should I be? Didn't say it was a physical threat and didn't contact the monitors about you either. Maybe we should just get together and talk. So, the next time you're in the NYC area drop me a line (and with your permission I'll contact you the next time I'm in the Tampa area) and we can have a beer and talk about it.

I regret dragging our mutual friends into the conversation as my intention was that they could talk some sense to you. Obviously either they didn't or they did and you've chosen to interpret their words in your way. I've no way of knowing until I talk to them myself and then I'll be clear. I would think that the conversation contained three logical possibilites:

1. Jack Latorre teaches the PTI curriculum. Well, we already know that and we understand your opinion of the matter.
2. They don't think much of Jack.
3. They don't think much of me.

So what. Hanging out "awkward and uncomfortable results" like a giant pinata and then saying you're not going to swing is disingenous, and probably caused them no small source of embarrassment. I've PM'd them both and apologized for dragging them into this mess, but at any rate they can tune me up the next time we train together!

As far as the larger issues go I really don't think there's much to talk about. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that a large part of your argument has been orchestrated in the recent past by a few individuals interested in consolodating their position within PTGO, to the sorrow and detriment of many (both inside and outside PTGO) who go back together some 20 or 30 years as friends, training partners, and business partners. I spoke recently witih a PTGO instructor who's heartsick at the kind of damage that this kind of deliberate, self-serving rancor can produce. But I bet you don't get it - because you've got what, 5 years as a Pekiti teacher under your belt? How many is it?

Here's hoping you get some perspective. As I said above, I'd be happy to talk about it with you face to face if you're willing. This "death of 10,000 bytes" debate is fruitless.

Best,

Steve

[blue]

The system of mathmatics could not exist without the correct understanding between the word and its action, so too should be the standard for a real weapons combat system.

Setting aside differences in execution, I am curious to know what your answer would be to the original question: why are the patterns named the way they are? Is there added value in calling something "Upper 8" instead of "Heaven 6" (as some systems call a similar pattern) beyond mnemonics? I know that some kung-fu systems have a specific concept embedded in the name ("Monkey steals the peach"), but the "tactical" advantage of calling it an "8" over a "6" eludes me. Perhaps there is a hidden beat?

[arnisador]

Hubbard: Frankly, I never understood the need for a PTI section. We are talking about one FMA combat system, regardless of which factions are represented in it.


We separated the PTK section into a PTI section and a PTK section precisely to limit inter-faction discussions that shed more heat than light. Despite the large number of Modern Arnis orgs. and the acrimony between them, we still haven't had to do that there.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[DM03]

Bob Hubbard:


The bottom line here is that there are -2- Pekiti forums because there has been significant discord between a few vocal members of the 2 main organizations. The solution was to split them.

I thought the solution was just to ban them, which they did.


While you are technically correct, "combat tech should be no different." you are wrong stating "The PTK system is no different.". I'm afraid it is. This section is not intended for the discussion of Leo Gaje's PTK system, but the PTI PT system. While they share a name, and a core and a number of techniques, at the end of the day, they are different arts. There was a "fork in the road, and both went down different forks". You can define the relationship however you want, brothers, cousins, red headed step child, bastard son, whatever. Don't care. But at the end, if they call an upward strike #5 and you call it #4, here it IS #5. Rather than argue here, go enrich the PT section. Or don't. I really don't care. But Mr. Latorre is welcome to teach on my floor any day.

For someone that just keeps the software software-ing and seems really not to care, you have interesting points to add. Ok I see, all you have to do is train with the PTK Grand Master and Heir for some period of time, decide you will be taking up some different fork in the road and you too can claim to lead a Pekiti-Tirsia System that stands equal to the original. I see. Generations of Tortal family leaders just turned in their grave. Thanks Bob, and good night.

[DM03]

Jason:


In order to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you suggesting that Leslie Buck's reputation is not deserved? Or, were you referring to Erwin Ballarta or even someone else with that statement? Or, was I misunderstanding you entirely?


I direct you to your statement, "Not to mention, several other PTK practitioners..." My response about solid reputations was geared to this particular sentence of yours. Mine is simply a statement about the tenuous nature of what we hear of other people's reputations and how that information is ascertained. Often, there is more going on behind the scenes than what is readily apparent, and what is readily apparent is easily controlled. So, like I said, go talk to everyone involved (or as many as you can - in this day and age its not that hard), ask questions, do searches, pay attention, take notice of certain dynamics, and have a good memory. Then draw your own conclusions. I stand by mine.

[jwinch2]

Jason:



I direct you to your statement, "Not to mention, several other PTK practitioners..." My response about solid reputations was geared to this particular sentence of yours. Mine is simply a statement about the tenuous nature of what we hear of other people's reputations and how that information is ascertained. Often, there is more going on behind the scenes than what is readily apparent, and what is readily apparent is easily controlled. So, like I said, go talk to everyone involved (or as many as you can - in this day and age its not that hard), ask questions, do searches, pay attention, take notice of certain dynamics, and have a good memory. Then draw your own conclusions. I stand by mine.


Thanks for the explanation.

[DM03]

Doug:


does it really matter that the 1st generation guys knew Pasugat/Pasunod? Really? What they did know is how to fight and that's what it all boils down to in the end can you go when it's time to get things done. You can know all the drills in the world but if when you put the headgear on you can't do anything but toe point and hit my hand like a tag game then the knowledge is useless.

Dude, don't you remember what I said about the 1st generation guys the last time you and I did this dance? Remember I said the original training of Tuhon produced exceptional fighters...Bisio, Ballarta, Knauss and Gelinas among them? Is what they learned the equivalent of the PTI curriculum? No. Here is the point - However Grand Tuhon chooses to manifest the authentic system of Pekiti-Tirsia, via whatever training platform he chooses, i.e. 64 attacks, tri-v, the ability to produce exceptional results always remains with him. That is why he is the Grand Master. HE is Pekiti-Tirsia, toe-pointing and all. Now, think on this for a minute...how many did he train in the 64 attacks? Hundreds? Thousands? How many has he trained in the Tri-V? Hundreds? Thousands? How many did he actually teach the Doce Methodos/Contradas to? I only know of two that can claim that...Bisio in the former and Waid in both.

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob Hubbard:

I thought the solution was just to ban them, which they did.

For someone that just keeps the software software-ing and seems really not to care, you have interesting points to add. Ok I see, all you have to do is train with the PTK Grand Master and Heir for some period of time, decide you will be taking up some different fork in the road and you too can claim to lead a Pekiti-Tirsia System that stands equal to the original. I see. Generations of Tortal family leaders just turned in their grave. Thanks Bob, and good night.

Actually, at this point I'm just declaring you an obvious agenda troll and washing my hands of the discussion. As I said, take your quite obvious issues up with Hartman.

[DM03]

Dear Dino,

Nope - not scared of you. Why should I be? Didn't say it was a physical threat and didn't contact the monitors about you either. Maybe we should just get together and talk. So, the next time you're in the NYC area drop me a line (and with your permission I'll contact you the next time I'm in the Tampa area) and we can have a beer and talk about it.

I regret dragging our mutual friends into the conversation as my intention was that they could talk some sense to you. Obviously either they didn't or they did and you've chosen to interpret their words in your way. I've no way of knowing until I talk to them myself and then I'll be clear. I would think that the conversation contained three logical possibilites:

1. Jack Latorre teaches the PTI curriculum. Well, we already know that and we understand your opinion of the matter.
2. They don't think much of Jack.
3. They don't think much of me.

So what. Hanging out "awkward and uncomfortable results" like a giant pinata and then saying you're not going to swing is disingenous, and probably caused them no small source of embarrassment. I've PM'd them both and apologized for dragging them into this mess, but at any rate they can tune me up the next time we train together!

As far as the larger issues go I really don't think there's much to talk about. What you seem to be missing is the understanding that a large part of your argument has been orchestrated in the recent past by a few individuals interested in consolodating their position within PTGO, to the sorrow and detriment of many (both inside and outside PTGO) who go back together some 20 or 30 years as friends, training partners, and business partners. I spoke recently witih a PTGO instructor who's heartsick at the kind of damage that this kind of deliberate, self-serving rancor can produce. But I bet you don't get it - because you've got what, 5 years as a Pekiti teacher under your belt? How many is it?

Here's hoping you get some perspective. As I said above, I'd be happy to talk about it with you face to face if you're willing. This "death of 10,000 bytes" debate is fruitless.

Best,

Steve


Steve,

I wonder if you ever hear yourself? Do you have the impression, and I think you do, that you have some sort of wisdom to bestow upon a neophyte? Like an, Aw shucks kid, let ol' pappy here let you in on a thing or two.

The fact is that you have no idea what I have learned in the last 5 years, what information I've come by, or what I know regarding this system, its politics or its history.

Hubris, keep this word in mind. As far as it concerns my original post in this thread, in lieu of debating the technical points at hand, you, sir, chose to name people. You, sir, hung them out and continue to do so now... even as your last post makes apologies for having done so in the first place. It is your hubris that brings them anywhere near this discussion, with the notion in your head that they could talk some sense to me. I mean, do you hear yourself? I'm done mentioning them. You should consider doing the same.

What you seem to be missing is the understanding that the only one responsible for this "kind of damage" is Bill. I speak consistently to practitioners (both inside and outside PTGO) who are mad as hell they spent volumes of time and money learning the wrong thing from PTI. Here's what you don't get - I am far less concerned with whose heart is broken when these notions are challenged and the boat gets rocked. What is of utmost concern to me as far as the system of Pekiti-Tirsia is concerned is to see it preserved and executed as it was meant to be. And while in this era of relative choices a one-or-the-other scenario is unpopular, you are either a steward of the actual system or you choose to insert yourself and in the process dismantle, dilute or eviscerate it.

I'll look you up for that beer once I get another ten years or so under my belt. Wouldn't want to be wasting anymore of your time.

[DM03]

Actually, at this point I'm just declaring you an obvious agenda troll and washing my hands of the discussion. As I said, take your quite obvious issues up with Hartman.

This thread always could have stuck to the discussion of the obvious technical points at hand, but as always no one seems to want to do that. Ah well, nevermind. I'm almost done anyway.

[DM03]

Blue:


Setting aside differences in execution, I am curious to know what your answer would be to the original question: why are the patterns named the way they are? Is there added value in calling something "Upper 8" instead of "Heaven 6" (as some systems call a similar pattern) beyond mnemonics? I know that some kung-fu systems have a specific concept embedded in the name ("Monkey steals the peach"), but the "tactical" advantage of calling it an "8" over a "6" eludes me. Perhaps there is a hidden beat?

Hello - the tactical advantage is demonstrated in actual execution. In so far as the term Upper 8 instead of Heaven 6, the system is based in realism and not confined to the movements of animals, natural or celestial elements, or mythology. It specifically addresses combat and warfare through the analysis of true, tangible and functionally correct human characteristics and capabilities.

[silat1]

Oh boy,
You can tell that spring time has started thawing out the lurkers.. It seems we had a similar conversation between PTK and DTS last spring this time.. I hope this conversation doesn't get to the point that developed with the one I referenced in the sentence above.. Arnisador and Carol, stop the tirade before it gets worse, Please

[blue]

Blue:
Hello - the tactical advantage is demonstrated in actual execution. In so far as the term Upper 8 instead of Heaven 6, the system is based in realism and not confined to the movements of animals, natural or celestial elements, or mythology. It specifically addresses combat and warfare through the analysis of true, tangible and functionally correct human characteristics and capabilities.

So you call it "upper 8" because...?

[TuhonBill]

Dear PTI Forum Members,

I can understand were Dino is coming from. Psychologically I was in the same place he was when I was a young man, ie. Tuhon Gaje can do no wrong. The Pekiti-Tirsia system is the best martial art in the world. It’s techniques are magic and would turn me into superman. Back in those days I was just as dogmatic in my defense of Tuhon Gaje and Pekiti-Tirsia as Dino is now. I’m sure Tuhon Gaje has looked Dino straight in the eye and told him that he was being taught the “complete and original Pekiti-Tirsia system”. What Dino fails to realize is that many years ago Tuhon Gaje looked me straight in the eye and said exactly those same things to me. I know there is no point in arguing with Dino now because I understand where he is coming from. I thought exactly like he did when I was young and no amount of debate on the subject would have affected my belief in the least.

Folks, let’s get back to a reasoned discussion of techniques and drop the political arguments once and for all.


Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

[jwinch2]

Dear PTI Forum Members,

I can understand were Dino is coming from. Psychologically I was in the same place he was when I was a young man, ie. Tuhon Gaje can do no wrong. The Pekiti-Tirsia system is the best martial art in the world. It’s techniques are magic and would turn me into superman. Back in those days I was just as dogmatic in my defense of Tuhon Gaje and Pekiti-Tirsia as Dino is now. I’m sure Tuhon Gaje has looked Dino straight in the eye and told him that he was being taught the “complete and original Pekiti-Tirsia system”. What Dino fails to realize is that many years ago Tuhon Gaje looked me straight in the eye and said exactly those same things to me. I know there is no point in arguing with Dino now because I understand where he is coming from. I thought exactly like he did when I was young and no amount of debate on the subject would have affected my belief in the least.

Folks, let’s get back to a reasoned discussion of techniques and drop the political arguments once and for all.


Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

Very well stated.

Salamat Po...

[Rich Parsons]

*silly diatribe alert*
I take one glass of Kool-Aid and I put it on a table next to another glass of Kool-Aid. Where there was one, there are now two and I call that Addition, for one has been added to another to make two. Or, whatever, you could just say they're cuddling, seeing as how they are so close together now. Or maybe it looks like they're together-ing, no, um, how 'bout communing. Whatever it looks like to you. The system of mathmatics could not exist without the correct understanding between the word and its action, so too should be the standard for a real weapons combat system.

I am confused. In particular by "The system of mathmatics could not exist without the correct understanding between the word and its action, so too should be the standard for a real weapons combat system."

1+1=2
11+=2
or
1,1+=2

All are additon just different syntax. but the processing is different. Could you elaborate your comment and how it relates?

[Bob Hubbard]

I am confused. In particular by "The system of mathmatics could not exist without the correct understanding between the word and its action, so too should be the standard for a real weapons combat system."

1+1=2
11+=2
or
1,1+=2

All are additon just different syntax. but the processing is different. Could you elaborate your comment and how it relates?
You left off i=1;++i; :D

[Rich Parsons]

You left off i=1;++i; :D

Bob, I only went with old style Paper and Pencil mathematics. And the different approaches that were later used for calculators as well. The old HP's used RPN. 1,1,+,=2

I did not want to get into all the variations of syntax in the 10 or so languages I have written code in.