Similarities between Kombatan Freestyle and Balintawak?

[Twist]

I know that Remy Presas studied Balintawak Escrima so I guess it had some influence on GM Ernesto as well.

While doing Freestyle today I thought it was a lot like the Balintawak I've seen so far (Bobby Taboada and some others).

Is it just by coincidence or is Freestyle a still-existing Balintawak-Element?

[Balintawak]

I know that Remy Presas studied Balintawak Escrima so I guess it had some influence on GM Ernesto as well.

While doing Freestyle today I thought it was a lot like the Balintawak I've seen so far (Bobby Taboada and some others).

Is it just by coincidence or is Freestyle a still-existing Balintawak-Element?


Some schools/Lineages of Balintawak have the grouped teachings, yet from my understanding when you get to a point the instruction and play is free-style.

In the original style of teaching (* which many believe to be too random for the beginning student, hence the grouped method and even some modified methodologies *), the instructor guides the student through a free style format after the basics are learned. This free style play allows for the instructor to guide the student to a technique to that they have either just learned or need to practice, only the student does not know when or how the instructor will guide them there.

As to the impact of Balintawak upon GM Ernesto, I cannot speak for I have read his only influence to Balintawak would have been GM Remy, and GM Remy did not teach Balintawak in its pure state. So, You will have to have someone else discuss what if any influence on GM Ernesto was or is.

[Boar Man]

Twist

I see more of a similarity between GM Remy's Tapi Tapi drills and the grouping drills in Balintawak (like GM Toboada's) then GM Ernesto's Freestyle pattern.

GM Ernesto's Freestyle has some common techniques with GM Remy's RH to RH (Tapi/single stick sparring) pattern but I think the ranges are emphasized more in GM Ernesto's.

Mark

[arnisador]

I did not think that Ernesto Presas had a Balintawak background, other than what his brother had discussed with him.

[Balintawak]

I did not think that Ernesto Presas had a Balintawak background, other than what his brother had discussed with him.

That was my understanding.

[arnisador]

Does anyone have information to the contrary?

[monkey]

As far as were tought;
The Arjuken was not of balintawak!
The karate-kendo & arnis it was comprised of!
The arnis had serrada base for the edpada y daga --close range & the quick kill Ernesto loved!The Long range was not a fortay!
The better part was like hubud drills & some can be seenon the links of Ernesto doing it with & with out blind folds!
Ernesto was tought by his dad Jose & Remy did Balintawak!

[garland]

To the best of my understanding Remy took Balintewak to fill in the gaps for him with Arnis. Personally I like the tapi-tapi drill and watching it freestyle is very similiar to watching a balintewak drill. Seriously though if you can get a chance to do tapi tapi AND palit palit you're really getting the best drilling I can think of (short of live sparring).

[animal_stylez]

My understanding was that Remy studied Balintawak but with who is unclear, either Jose Villasin or Arnulfo Mongcal.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Remy studied with Toto Moncal then Timor Maranga then finished with Anciong Bacon himself.

[armas]

As far as were tought;
The Arjuken was not of balintawak!

>I missed this part. It was never called Balintawak.

The karate-kendo & arnis it was comprised of!
> ARJUKEN Karate was the system taught by GM Ernesto Presas to produce well rounded students. AR-for Arnis, JU-for judo and jujitsu, Ken- for kendo and Karate systems of Shorin Ryu and Shotokan karate.

The arnis had serrada base for the edpada y daga --close range & the quick kill Ernesto loved!

> Espada y daga is not Serrada Base. You may be talking about range. I could be wrong. The Espada y daga system of Kombatan was a blend of the knowledge from GM Ernesto's grandfather, GM Ben Lema of LSAI, and most of all SM Cristino Vasquez. SM Cris' loves Espada y daga and this was his contribution to the Kombatan system. SM Cris developed this with the watchful eye of GM Ernesto Presas.

The Long range was not a fortay!

> Long range was a range that was still very important in the Kombatan system. That's why it is covered. GM Ernesto loved Largo mano range. He would stay out in this range alot. He is well versed at this range.


The better part was like hubud drills & some can be seenon the links of Ernesto doing it with & with out blind folds!
Ernesto was tought by his dad Jose & Remy did Balintawak!
> Ernesto learned from alot of very well known arnisadors. But his exposure was with his Grandad and Father. Then Remy and Ernesto went out to do some research. Ernesto did some Balintawak with GM Mongcal and GM Maranga. He did not go deep into it like Remy though. Remy was and is still known as one of the best fighters of Balintawak. Even though he branched out. Remy gave alot of respect to Balintawak by thanking them in his first book.

This is not an argument. Don't take it personal. I hope I don't offend anyone. These are facts I personally would ask GM Ernesto while training with him. Take care.

[Rich Parsons]

> Ernesto learned from alot of very well known arnisadors. But his exposure was with his Grandad and Father. Then Remy and Ernesto went out to do some research. Ernesto did some Balintawak with GM Mongcal and GM Maranga. He did not go deep into it like Remy though. Remy was and is still known as one of the best fighters of Balintawak. Even though he branched out. Remy gave alot of respect to Balintawak by thanking them in his first book.

This is not an argument. Don't take it personal. I hope I don't offend anyone. These are facts I personally would ask GM Ernesto while training with him. Take care.


Armas,

I am confused. GM Moncal and GM Maranga are GM Remy's Teachers until he learned from GM Bacon. I respect GM Ernesto, this is just the first I have heard of this. Could you provide the years he trained with GM's Moncal and Maranga? Also what location i.e. Cebu or elsewhere.

I am very curious.

Thanks

Rich

[oosh]

Well you learn something new everyday ;)

[armas]

Sorry, I really wish I knew the dates and times. GM Ernesto told me he studied with them. I do also know that GM Remy first studied with them too. I will tell you this. I have seen alot of influence of these two masters in GM Ernesto's personal way of fighting. What I mean is his own personal movements. Not curriculum moves. Sorry if this is not clear. GM Ernesto does not always show his own personal methods of fighting. He keeps it to himself. Shares to a couple of fortunate old timers in his group.

[arnisador]

A lot of people used to say that Remy Presas would, when pressed, fall back into Balintawak habits that were not necessarily things he was teaching his Modern Arnis students, so I understand!

[Brock]

A lot of people used to say that Remy Presas would, when pressed, fall back into Balintawak habits that were not necessarily things he was teaching his Modern Arnis students, so I understand!

I find that a lot of instructors do this. It seems to be that if they are trying to get several students they teach a lot of "middle of the road" types of techniques that are easily understood and applied, but they themselves use other techniques.

[arnisador]

Well, another way of viewing that is that while trying to teach their personally developed system they cannot help but fall back to their own training! What they think is best for others may differ from how they were taught and what is ingrained for them.

But yes, I've seen what you refer to myself.

[Brock]

[quote=arnisador;9218]What they think is best for others may differ from how they were taught and what is ingrained for them.
quote]

That's kinda' what I was trying to say, but that part didn't come out very well.

[armas]

I remember when I first met GM Remy. He asked me who I studied with in the Philippines. When I mentioned his Brother Ernesto. He pulled me aside and showed me Balintawak moves. He asked me if I recognize them and if his brother ever showed me such moves. I said it looks quite familiar. This is my experience with GM REmy. He says I have not yet taught this to my students. I don't mean that he did not teach anybody. He might have after we met. You see it is the culture of the Filipino masters to hand down moves they feel you deserve. He did show some tapi tapi with it. But it shifted to Balintawak. He says to understand the Presas movement be it coming from any of the Brothers we had to learn Balintawak. That's the only thing I remember. The moves were to me just moves. What he said made more of an impact to me.

[arnisador]

My understanding is that Remy Presas would usually send students to Ted Buot for dedicated Balintawak training--the Prof. still knew the material well but for whatever reason he chose not to teach it as an art. Obviosuly, parts of it ended up in Modern Arnis!

[kindred]

there is a style called birada that has a great freestyle system that leads into great takedowns

[kindred]

it seems that pretty much everyone has trained with a lot of different people , or dabbled in styles and then made their own ,, i think holding back moves is wrong , if you were teaching some one to drive would you hold back knowledge , when you teach people a trade do you hold back knowledge no ,, so why are martial artists so afraid to show moves like that is going to be the thing that makes them better than anyone else ,knowledge should flow and hey if you teach something to someone and they get better than you , that doesnt matter it is probably cause you have taught them well and you should be proud of that ,,at some stage you are going to get past it, but if you are free with knowledge and take people on their merrits not their wallet you can feel that you have been a true martial artist and proper roll model ,,holding back techniques comes from not being at one with yourself and really being afraid you have nothing more to give , but if you flow with your students and they in turn respect you for what you have shown and done there shouldnt be a macho alpha male problem .. be free and at harmony

[Wayuk-Oyaak]

Remy studied with Toto Moncal then Timor Maranga then finished with Anciong Bacon himself.
On the contrary sir. GM Presas never finished his training in Balintawak. although 'Manong Anciong Bacon taught him balintawak but was cut short because GM Presas travel a lot to find other FMA styles. The Tapi-Tapi is not of Balintawak subsystem - the grouping system of Balintawak is unique as GM Villasin had been teaching his students (now masters). But I commended GM Presas's abilites to merge all that he learned from dfferent styles... he's one the few masters that made the FMA popular.

I know this from my cousin who happened to be a Balintawak instructor.

[StixMaster]

it seems that pretty much everyone has trained with a lot of different people , or dabbled in styles and then made their own ,, i think holding back moves is wrong , if you were teaching some one to drive would you hold back knowledge , when you teach people a trade do you hold back knowledge no ,, so why are martial artists so afraid to show moves like that is going to be the thing that makes them better than anyone else ,knowledge should flow and hey if you teach something to someone and they get better than you , that doesnt matter it is probably cause you have taught them well and you should be proud of that ,,at some stage you are going to get past it, but if you are free with knowledge and take people on their merrits not their wallet you can feel that you have been a true martial artist and proper roll model ,,holding back techniques comes from not being at one with yourself and really being afraid you have nothing more to give , but if you flow with your students and they in turn respect you for what you have shown and done there shouldnt be a macho alpha male problem .. be free and at harmony

There are still FMA schools that exist that trains the students with the expectation of the student becoming the best that they can be. One school like that is in San Francisco run by GM Robert Castro, it is called Eskabo Daan, it is a mixed system that incorporates Kombatan,Serrada,Kali,Boxing,Ju-jit-su etc... but uses a short stick, GM Castro recently returned from the Kombatan camp promoted to 9th Dan in Kombatan by GGM Ernesto Presas, whom GM Castro was taught by personally. Also promoted was GM Lito Concepcion to 9th Dan in Kombatan. GM Robert Castro does not hold back knowledge from those who train with him, he just asks the student to be committed to the training. He doesn't charge a lot $ 10- $15 a lesson . There are still FMA instructors that do truly care about their students.

[StixMaster]

There are still FMA schools that exist that trains the students with the expectation of the student becoming the best that they can be. One school like that is in San Francisco run by GM Robert Castro, it is called Eskabo Daan, it is a mixed system that incorporates Kombatan,Serrada,Kali,Boxing,Ju-jit-su etc... but uses a short stick, GM Castro recently returned from the Kombatan camp promoted to 9th Dan in Kombatan by GGM Ernesto Presas, whom GM Castro was taught by personally. Also promoted was GM Lito Concepcion to 9th Dan in Kombatan. GM Robert Castro does not hold back knowledge from those who train with him, he just asks the student to be committed to the training. He doesn't charge a lot $ 10- $15 a lesson . There are still FMA instructors that do truly care about their students.
GM Lito Concepcion & GM Robert Castro both were personally trained by GGM Ernesto Presas but they themselves fused that training with what they knew already but one can see the Kombatan in their teaching. They both say that there is Balintawak influence in Kombatan. Kombatan itself I feel is a FMA fusion art. It is said that GM Robert Castro fused Kombatan with Cabales Serrada that he learned from GGM Angel Cabales, who learned De Cuerdas from GM Feliciscimo Dizon. Thats why I'm saying that they all seem to be a form of MMA. Kombatan also has elements of classical arnis as well. Now if we are talking about fighting range, long, medium and short or close (serrada) now here are some similarities or influences with Balintawak. FMA Fusion, Bruce Lee did with JKD !

[armas]

Kindred, I know what you Birada system is teaching. We all finish off with take downs. This is the finishing moves of the Presas family. ONce they come in and counter they finish you off by taking you down and control the situation.

Birada is a system formulated by Roger Solar a junior of ours in Kombatan/Ernesto's System. He is very talented. He has a deep knowledge of GM Ernesto's style because he was the main training partner and best friend of Jan Presas. Unfortunately, there was a fall out. I will not dabble in to it. But he is very talented. You are lucky to have him as an instructor.

does he have an email I can contact him through? PM it to me please if you would be so kind to. Thanks.

[necopa74]

Remy studied with Toto Moncal then Timor Maranga then finished with Anciong Bacon himself.

i am very sure that Remy did not finish Balintawak under Anciong Bacon...

[Datu Tim Hartman]

i am very sure that Remy did not finish Balintawak under Anciong Bacon...
I'm not saying that he learned the entire system. What I'm saying is that GM Bacon was the last person that GM Remy trained Balintawak with.