Arjuken??

[Brother John]

Very simply: What is Arjuken??
Is it still being practiced/taught? How does it differ in traning and tactics from other PMA-derived systems? Who heads it today??
Thank you

Your Brother
John

[Twist]

ArJuKen is just part of the name of GM Ernestos first Organisation:

ArJuKen - Karate Association International, or the long Version
Arnis - Ju Jutsu - Kendo - Karate Association International.

So ArJuKen is not a style - its just the martial arts, GM Ernesto was teaching in his first organisation.

You can see that in the old pass as well - there was room for Arnis, JuJutsu, Kendo and Karate degrees.

Here in Germany, you could get degrees in all the named martial arts by GM Ernesto - I know several ppl who did their black belt tests in Karate, Kendo or JuJutsu under GM Ernesto.

[Brother John]

Interesting.
Thank you



Is there many people around (This site) who studied in an Arjuken school?


Your Brother
John

[arnisador]

I too understood that the Arjuken stage was an earlier stage in the development of Kombatan.

From this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=723), an article that discusses Arjuken:

The Art of The Flow

(http://www.cfwenterprises.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3229)


Later that year [1970] Presas relocated to Manila and opened the Arjuken Karate Association in Quiapo, in the heart of Manila’s downtown area.

The beginning of the Arjuken (a combination of the names arnis, ju-jitsu and kendo) Karate Association was tough for Presas and his early followers.

[Brother John]

I too understood that the Arjuken stage was an earlier stage in the development of Kombatan.

From this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=723), an article that discusses Arjuken:

The Art of The Flow


Thank you...
That's a very interesting article.

Makes me all the more sad though that the local Kombatan school isn't currently accepting new students.

Your Brother
John

[arnisador]

What a shame! Well, as long as they know you're interested, something may open up there.

[johnzag]

Arjuken Karate is still being practiced in Australia. It actually has a substantial following there. Chris Traish is the head instructor of Arjuken for Grand Master in Australia. This is different to the Chief Instructor of IPMAF and Kombatan for Australia which is Andy Elliott.

Spoke to some Arjuken people at the IPMAF World Abroad training camp in Melbourne recently and they said that it was based on shotokan kata's and also incorporating some of the basic solo baston, double baston and knife disarming taught in the Kombatan syllabus.

Interesting that it still comes up in conversations and forums..

[armas]

I am an old student of arjuken karate. Actually, Arjuken karate was coined to explain what GM Ernesto was teaching in his HQ at that time. Now we just go by Kombatan which also includes mano mano as emptyhand.

Ar is for Modern Arnis as the family art of the Presas family. Arjuken karate had a base of shotokan karate with a mix of shorin ryu in it. Presas jujitsu was based on Daito ryu from what i was told by my senior Master Mark Santos(the main teacher of jujitsu in arjuken back in the 90's), To add that in Ju of Arjuken Judo was included. Kendo was taught only by GM Ernesto which he learned in Japan in the 70's with jujitsu and karate.

Arjuken karate produced many well rounded martial artist as you can see of the curriculum we had. You had to be proficient in all. Then specialized in whichever you choose. GM's philosophy was to produce many well rounded fighters in a no nonsense way. Later, GM Ernesto was convinced that he should just concentrate on the FMA side. I used to teach arjuken but now concentrate on the fma because that was what I came to for when I joined GM Ernesto's school.

Hope this helps.

[arnisador]

How much karate is in Kombatan?

[armas]

Not that much. In my opinion, we included the strikes to make it complete emptyhand art. Our hands move like a boxer with stick movement. It includes hand traps or immobiliztation, many locks and takedowns.

Arjuken was used to satisfy the hunger of the Filipinos for foreign martial arts. Plus GM Ernesto wanted to teach the arts of which have helped him grow as a martial artist. To him all arts are good. He just felt that FMA as his forte had to be spread and known through out the world.

[eskrimador]

ARJUKEN (Arnis Judo/Juijitsu Kendo Association) was the martial arts school of GM Ernesto Presas, that he established after his older brother Prof. Remy Presas migrated to US and left the NAKO (National Arnis Karate Association).

The ARJUKEN was known in Manila as martial arts school teaching Modern Arnis, Jujitsu, Karate (hybrid of Shorin and Shotokan), and sort of kobudo and kendo (the teaching of kendo did not grow due to expensiveness of this armoured art). The 80`s and 90`s, GM Ernie established himself through giving seminars to different countries and the IPMAF (International Philippine Martial Arts Federation) was organized. The group focused on developing and propagating Modern Arnis vis-a-vi empty hand (Mano Mano), knife fighting, modified jujitsu and other indigenous weapons.Then GM Ernie, concluded to call his system as KOMBATAN

[monkey]

HE had many such as the ARJUKEN!
I Have rank in Arjuken--International Philppino Arnis--Mono y Mono & He also had the Kombaton!Each had ranks or certificates for it!
Mono y Mono tapes were produced with Jeff Danels who was exspelled!
Internations Philippino arts & Arjuken were filmed in Philippines!
Kombaton set can be found in the U.S. in martail Art Mags!

[kindred]

as far as i know arjuken is shotokan karate with a stick,jujitsu but dont know what style and who by and kendo but dont know who by and when graded

[kindred]

AS far i know chris traish doesnt have anything to do with the presas family any more ,pepe yap probably would have taught ggm the shorin ryu , and the person that really propagated kombatan in australia was hugh doherty head instructor of a.i.m.a health and creator of combat kali (fma for the western mind) hugh organised the australian crew for the first camp in negros in 1999 and without his tireless efforts kombatan would probably not have much of a place in oz , as usual in martial arts hugh was undermined and that was that ,hugh has trained with greats of the martial arts in both fma and other styles he has all the proper accreditation from world organisations , and has always taken in anyone without prejudice and a lot of the time without money to pay for the classes which is what makes hugh a real martial artist and human being ,i know there will be some people who will probably have a crack at what i have said but hey my door is always open come and see me as i have nothing to hide and hugh is too humble to put stuff about himself out there ,, hope the best to everyone in the fma community and never be afraid to speak your mind its what makes us communicate and as long as it is not being terribly down grading to anyone whats the harm in the truth if you are what you are ,,all the best

[johnzag]

Chris Traish actually attended the 1st World Abroad Kombatan Training Camp in Melbourne were he was awarded his 7th Dan in Arjuken Karate by Grand Master Ernesto and reaffirmed as the Chief Instructor of Arjuken Karate in Australia with Andy Elliott the chief instructor of all other I.P.M.A.F. styles.

Interesting notes on Hugh Doherty I think that there would be a lot of people who may have a differing opinion. I have always felt Hugh's passion laid towards Jiu-Jitsu and Karate and not the FMA's although he is heavily invoved in that area as well currently with Roger Solar (who is also a former I.P.M.A.F. player).

To be honest however Kombatan in Australia did not really take off until about 2004/05 by which time Hugh had stopped being active with I.P.M.A.F.

[kindred]

to johnzag
The only people to have a different opinion are you and andy that with your lust to take over a system would stop at nothing to get it , you are andy are the sad products that martial arts finds itself with everynow and then and it is people like you that bring disrespect and shame to a wonderful journey of the martial arts ,,,and really mate you dont want to get into the roger solar issue because some pants will be pulled down that none of you would want out in the open and to show respect to ggm presas and his son they will not be said unless you push the matter and to the matter of hugh he started learning fma with the brabhams which was before you or andy had an incling of martial arts training and has selflessly promoted the fma around australia and around the the world without a lust for profit and personal merit to back up a lacking of spine and heart , i apologise to other people on this site that have to read this

[arnisador]

Please, let's keep th discussion focused on the art itself!

[Combat Kali]

Dear Johnny,
It would appear that my refusal of your request to grade you in jujitsu & karate after a handful of lessons has wounded you deeply. Kindred - you do not have to defend me, I understand your concerns as an examiner of Johnnys 1st degree of "kombatan" on the 9/4/2003 at my HQ & 2nd degree 7/5/2003 by Ernesto at PI. Kindred is well aware of your FMA tuition & history.
Kombatan was named such after former IPMAF club president Garitony Nicholas registered "Modern Arnis Mano Mano" no other reason.Roger Solar replaced Garitony.Roger Solar has "presas style" as a sub style of his "Birada" system reflecting the content of Jose, Remy, Ernesto & Roberto. In 1 week Rogers IPEAC was greater in numbers than IPMAF.It is more prudent to be good at FMA rather than be focused on what to name it.
At the Meeting between Ernesto and Chris Traish in Melbourne it was agreed that Chris is in charge of Modern Arnis, Geoff Traish Arjuken and Michael Darcy Mano Mano.Expansion of the Presas name in Australia is credited to Roland Dante, a better man you will not meet.True - I am involved with Japanese arts as myself and dojo are recognised by the Japanese Royal family but I also represent GP Roger Solar & GT Leo Gaje in Australia proudly. I am involved with our national body of FMA ( AFCAF) as well as seminars etc.There are more than 20 "presas" style instructors in Australia in AFCAF. They choose not to be financial to Ernesto for various reasons, He is a lovable rogue.We choose to quietly study FMA which is why Roger trained my group for 4 weeks in October 2003 and 12 weeks presently and our trip in December 2005 with the "masters" organised by Roland Dante in Manilla.We practice FMA in preference to talking about it, this may be the reason your Chief instructor has little following.Propagating mistruths in the hope they become true has as much success as a wishbone becoming a backbone.Inthe words of Cherie Marian (another story)"The difference is quality" Cherie was succesfull female champion at the national titles in full contact Baston as was Kindred (Peter Simons) in the male.Despite being an open tournament "kombatan Australia" was not present. Says it all.
Hope you experience more.
Hugh Doherty

[StixMaster]

Once again we see an example of the students, irregardless of the years of their training, disrespecting the source of the knowledge. The prior post by 'Kombat Kali' is a-typical of the Western thinking of if and when I get this I'll design to just benefit myself, then I can have the glory and the honor for myself. I can see that this person has yet to really know GGM Ernesto Presas personally and I myself refuse to let a post of slick words and Western reasoning prevent me from paying the respect due the whole Presas family and especially GGM Ernesto A. Presas. All you have posted is an example of what is truly a manuver to exploit FMA while casting doubts on the source of this FMA info. Remember everybody is human,even Great Grand Masters, Presidents (Bush),Queens (Elizabeth), all are subject to making mistakes or mis-judgements. In FMA you won't find the really good 'players' talking like you !! This is one of the major areas which directly effects many of us who mature in our fighting discipline and as a direct result we may become overly complacent thinking that we have achieved all that we can in our particular field of expertise. Too many of us buy into the hype that once a Master always a Master and speaking frankly this could not be farther from the truth as we are all only as effective as we are today !! As you know GGM Presas consistently keeps his 'Kombatan' fresh and on the cutting edge and if you have been keeping up with FMA news you would know that and yes he does encourage the instructors under him, look at the recent camp this year in Negros. Cheers ! Just stating my opinion and in no way meant to reflect the views of the management of this site !

[arnisador]

in no way meant to reflect the views of the management of this site !

The Management is delighted to have so many knowledgeable FMA practitioners and teachers here, and hopes only for continued positive and friendly discussion of the arts!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[StixMaster]

"The Management is delighted to have so many knowledgeable FMA practitioners and teachers here, and hopes only for continued positive and friendly discussion of the arts!"

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

Thank you for seeing that, I just had to respond to the post just because the post brought his personal problems on this forum !! Thanks again

[kindred]

no more laundry , just fma talk , we aussies speak our minds and sometimes it gets up peoples skirts ,it gets us in trouble but we do not back away from a fight , that is why we are indeard with the fma systems of fighting no bull just bite , get in my way and prepare yourself for a fight, we love it

[StixMaster]

Now that speaks volumes of how many insecurities you do have , Mate! However the reason the world is in the condition it is in is due to that very philosophy. Look at the Middle East and just how much progress has the Western world achieved ?? Just remember that when you get held up waiting in an airport going thru screening. It just doesn't add up! I'll take my stand with GGM Presas against any derogatory comments from anywhere on this Earth ! Cheers! Peace out!

[armas]

Here's my opinion on the Australian connection with GGM Ernesto Presas. Chris Traish has been one of the most influential martial artist to help GGM to spread his art. To me he is still family. Great person/martial artist.He had most of his students who wanted to learn from GGM to come to the Philippines to train with us(Cristino Vasquez, Bambit Dulay,Mark Santos, Daniel Rollo, Myself, Jan Presas). Too bad though we lost Chris in the journey. I don't know what happen. Michael D'arcy another great person/brother/martial artist. Helped GGM too in his spreading of the arts. I thank Andy E. for helping spread the arts now. We should all be happy we are helping each other. Politics should not be a big thing. But that's just me. Roger Solar is another talent that was let go for a stupid reason. I know some of the stories. But we don't want to go there. I hope Roger the best. Because all the above mentioned people are great people. Politics aside. Roger was up and coming when I left. HE is such a big help to Jan Presas in training. They used to be like brothers. Too bad they are not the same now. But I can attest to Roger's skill, attitude and knowledge. I felt bad when they let him go. These people are all our brothers in the art of GGM Presas. Be it Kombatan, Arnis Presas style, Modern Arnis.These are just phases of GGM Ernesto's evolution. Why give a big fuss over the name. To tell you the truth, I bet Chris will agree with me if I said there is no difference in the curriculum that the new Kombatan group is learning from the old. It's just the name that changed. I always get this question. What's the difference between KOmbatan and Arnis Presas style or Modern Arnis. I would say it's the spelling. It is all the same in the end.

[kindred]

well to all it seems i have opened a can of worms , didnt really mean to things just popped out thats all ..to stix i dont really have insecurities mate and the middle east is due to oil , religion and power , i am into neither and i didnt start the war , i think in the letters i showed no malice to ggm presas or jan enjoyed training with them in 99 and we had a good laugh would like the subject to end here and now. things behind the scenes will be sorted out that way to armas nicely written letter , if i have offended anyone outside this sector i apologise was never the intention all the best to you all and your familys

[arnisador]

I'm sure no one means to offend. Communicating in this medium, without voice inflection and body language, makes it all too easy for misunderstandings to arise. It seems like we're reaching a better spot now, so I hope the conversation will continue!

[Combat Kali]

I agree with Armas, there are still many great people in the Ernesto camp. Kindred was just responding to what he considered slander against his coach and friend of 18 years. He has no insecurities and quiet humble as complimented by those that know him. This curse has been going on since brother vs brother. I speak with Chris and we hold the same view as does Roger Solar.The death of Rogers wife of an asthma attack in the Manillas street in front of her children was a tragedy. I paid for the funeral as Ernesto had failed to do so as promised purely to give the Dignity she deserved.This lead to the erosion of our friendship spurned by spouse and son.I have spent countless hours with Ernesto - training,talking, interviewing, asking and massaging. I like him but have certain issues over organisational behaviour.

Stikman - History shows that martial concepts from Japanese, Korean, Malayasian & Indonesian to name a few have been incorporated into FMA. Is it your view that if this concept is reversed it is an outrage to Filipino Culture ?
"Western mind" just a name but with over 1000 school children enjoying FMA as part of cirriculum surely a positive for all FMA.
Austrasian Filipino Combat Arts Federation incorporated is open to all FMA regardless of affiliation and is provides a platform for Filipino Instructors to access goverment support.Many have gained employment and friendships and fiscal viability to host overseas instructors to further promote FMA.
This is achieved by a voluntery board.
Perhaps you can share your success in USA FMA promotion.
You might be concerned with Anthony Davis letter to Rob Castro
Is this the same Rob Castro recently promoted to 9th degree at camp ?
OUCH!
Always research Imua,It was Ernesto that taught me to do so.
Hugh Doherty

[StixMaster]

Hey Kombat Kali it is the same GM Castro that was promoted by GGM Ernesto Presas, it was GGM Presas that personally taught and trained him one on one. That letter I found out there in the world wide web and thought how ironic for Anthony Davis after he had that letter posted back in 2005, that now in 2007 this promotion takes place. That letter shows the whole world that he is no longer associated with or affiliated with or connected with Anthony Davis ! GM Castro has known GGM Presas and his son for over 12 years. Right now he and GM Concepcion are preparing a seminar this Saturday in Vallejo,Ca. that will start bringing FMA together with a voluntary fellowship that will help all styles to better communicate for the sake of FMA. As things progress my FMA brother we will get that info out probably thru PG Dowd's FMA Digest. Now that I have read your new post and can better see what you are clearly saying, I say its all good, Mate! GGM Ernesto A. Presas has really been gracious to us here in Northern California to which we are eternally grateful to GGM and his family. We are all human and we all need to truly learn the power of forgiveness, now that itself will start all of FMA to come together on a positve note. Being a realist one can strive for 100% but to at least get 70% involved now that would be nice for all. All we want to do is promote all FMA period. I post as part of my research, look at how much info we have just shared. Peace out ! No worries, Cheers !

[Twist]

No offense to anyone, but the way promotions are given right now in Kombatan is not really nice. I've met ppl. with 2 Months of Kombatan-Training who had the 2. Dan, and guys with 4 Months of training who had the 4th dan. And others with close to no training at all who were masters.
Nowadays I think you've to look more for experience then rank when it comes to Kombatan and if they really know what they're doing.

I understand giving ranks to promote the art in new countries... but I dont like it!

Ps: 9th Dan after 12 years? I know you cant say NO to a promotion by your GGM, but I wouldnt advertise it either.

[Combat Kali]

Stixmaster - I know Lito, a great bloke and am pleased for him. He is always promoting his culture and I support him.

The split between Ernesto and Roger Solar was not of either choosing.They enjoyed each others company.The current Sec Gen would have a chance of
healing the wounds of both. In life we have to make decisions that are uncomfortable that dictate who we are as a human being and role model.
This was one of those times for me.
Leo Gaje (PKT) and Roland Dante ( eskrima, arnis masters) have been superb.

Twist - I and others hear your concern. Roger Solar uses Remy's requirements; 2 years between 1-4 and 3 years thereafter based on 6 hours per week. I use hours trained for equality. My personal view that only indigenous should have the title of Grandmaster but I am old school in etiquette. When the business of Martial Arts becomes the priority quality will suffer. It is challenging for those in a developing country not to be seduced by wealth (real and imagined) for this reason you need to look at the issue holistically and strive to achieve the level of competency worthy. Ernesto awarded me a level, I was uncomfortable about the process so I had Roger stay and train me to that level for a month in 2003. He returned for 3 months recently to host a camp and tournament and further grade people in his Birada system .
Roger is one of the best instructors in the "Presas Style" due to his teaching methods.I believe the next camp 2009 will be in Germany.
The disadvantage of instructor promotions is that students don't receive instructional quality not only practical but emotionally as well. Mis truthful Marketing creates a whirlpool that only pulls down the principals of all martial arts leaving the unsuspecting student unfulfilled & disillusioned. This process has been applied in other systems( Korean, Chinese) as well with similar shortcomings. ask When ? by Who ? What did you perform ? when assessing credentials.
Hope this helps.
Hugh Doherty
www.aima-and-health.org

[johnzag]

Hugh,

this was probably not the best forum to have a conversation with each other for the first time in 4 years.

I think we will both agree that we have very different opinions and thoughts on past events and will just have to leave it at that.

With regards to comments on my gradings you yourself graded me to my first degree and there after all ranks have come directly from Grand Master.
I am happy with where I am at so is my Instructor and most importantly the Presas Family & IPMAF Family as a whole.

On my part I have done my best to support IPMAF, Kombatan and the Presas Family. I have traveled to the philippines in 2003 (with yourself) and returned in 2005 and in April/May of this year 2007. Kombatan Australia which I am a senior member of has also brought Master Jan out to Australia in 2004 and Grand Master, Master Jan and Master Michael out in 2006.

Good Luck with your endeavours with IPEAC and the promotion of Filipino Martial Arts in Australia (and around the world). At the end of the day it has always been my wish to see the Filipino Martial Arts (and in my case Kombatan) grow as I feel they have so much to offer everyone.

To Peter sorry if I offended you was not my intention but we are in a similar boat we both have instructors that we respect immensely and are sometimes dissapointed when comments are made. Peace.

Cheers everyone and hopefully we can concentrate on some healthy FMA discussion now.

Thanks,

Johnny.

[arnisador]

Cheers everyone and hopefully we can concentrate on some healthy FMA discussion now.


That's what we're hear for! It'd be interesting to hear more about people who are still teaching Arjuken separately from Kombatan.

[StixMaster]

No offense to anyone, but the way promotions are given right now in Kombatan is not really nice. I've met ppl. with 2 Months of Kombatan-Training who had the 2. Dan, and guys with 4 Months of training who had the 4th dan. And others with close to no training at all who were masters.
Nowadays I think you've to look more for experience then rank when it comes to Kombatan and if they really know what they're doing.

I understand giving ranks to promote the art in new countries... but I dont like it!

Ps: 9th Dan after 12 years? I know you cant say NO to a promotion by your GGM, but I wouldnt advertise it either.

Your quote maybe true for you but in this case it doesn't apply. If you trained with someone of GGM Presas' knowledge for 12 years one on one and had other experience with FMA prior, I could see that promotion. You also have to see to believe that GM Castro created his own style called Eskabo Daan, that is part of it as well. Everything in life just doesn't nicely fit into a neat package there are always exceptions and in the case of GM Robert Castro, he is an exception. Please check out his style,speed and accuracy, you will see why he is 9th Dan, like Hugh states in his post after yours, he knows GM Lito Concepcion as well as Master Alex France SG Kombatan,they will vouch for this promotion,so these promotions are not like you've decribed at all.I'll be seeing them all tomorrow at their seminar,I'm sure you'll get to read about it in the next FMA Digest past events section. Don't follow rumors or heresay but go get the facts or like Hugh said do the research. GO and meet these different instructors get background info on the style you will be seeing and don't be naive, ask the hard questions, then you will know if its for real or not. We are not advertising the promotion at all, however I'll say that it is a response that has been due for sometime now. Oh yes one can turn down a promotion from the GrandMaster if one wants too. We know its not in the rank but the total person, skill, heart and mind with some character. Cheers !

[Twist]

Oh, I DO know that there are a lot of ppl. who've been with GM Ernesto Presas for a long time now. But (since I'm also involved in Kombatan for quite a few years now) I also DO know that the way of giving certificates/promotions did change.
After all I just met ppl here with Dan-Certificates after few months of training. Or have been promoted through the Dans within weeks.
I cant see how that does any good.

(But I didnt want to imply that Mr. Castro is not good in what he's doing. I dont know him and cant say anything about his knowledge. But for me, GM is a title you cant just buy - and there are ppl now who became GMs in Kombatan within a few years after meeting GM Ernesto for the first time. I actually like the jap. way to give Dans (after all its a japanese title.. or else call it Lakan) - 2 years waiting for 2. Dan, 3 years for 3. Dan, ...
If you sum it up (for a 'normal' guy):
Lets say 5 years for 1. Dan, then as many years as the Dan-degree... that would be 49 Years to 9th Dan. Now lets say someone starts Kombatan at the age of 10, then he would be 9th Dan at 59 .. thats actually an age and an effort I call worthy of the title Grandmaster.
But then again, thats just my opinion and I honestly think you dont need any certificates.
But IF you want certificates, at least make them worth the paper they're written on.)

Sorry.. really didnt want to get into such a political argument. But imho whats happening right now is really really bad for the reputation of Kombatan.

Ps: I dont want to offend anyone ... I'm just bitching about the situation.
Pps: Since you brought it up. How did the promotion work. One Dan-degree after the other.. or was there skipping of degrees as I've seen it happen?
Ppps: I like your signature. Somehow it fits the discussion.

[johnzag]

That's what we're hear for! It'd be interesting to hear more about people who are still teaching Arjuken separately from Kombatan.

When I spoke to Michael Darcy in 2006 at the world abroad camp in melbourne he is blending most of the arts he has trained in and passing it on to his students however they still grade in Karate (Arjuken). More emphasis on the mano mano and the Japanese Shotokan Kata's but they still do a lot of the basic stick work.

I think Chris Traish is also teaching Arjuken as well hence why GM graded him to his 7th Dan in Arjuken Karate.

[Twist]

no more replies?

[armas]

I agree with Hugh and Twist. Promotion in our group is bad. But like we said that is the wish of GGM Presas. I sometimes don't agree but who am I to stop this? I just try to keep the quality of teaching in my own way. I have been with GM since 89 but I don't believe in rank. To me it's about my passion for the arts. Whatever I learned from GGM Presas I teach the way it was taught to me. I feel it is sad to see so many promotions going on in our group. Hopefully, they would try to train harder to get to whatever level they should be. That is why I hate rank. Back in our times. Rank was given later as an honor. We did not think of it too much.

[StixMaster]

Thats why it is good not to be in charge or be a founder of a style , cause everyone always complains of one thing or another. If we all could create an effective system of Filipino Martial Arts then we could promote ourself. Truth is in combat and not in rhetoric, thats why back in the day, it was settled that way. When one is fighting, one should be totally focus on the exact here and now or one will get injured badly, thats motivation enough. Talking is graet for communication but in fighting one sees the clear truth that my style works or doesn't work(trial & error method). GGM Presas is the 'man' he calls the shots, I'm just glad for the knowledge not the rank!!

[animal_stylez]

This is a very interesting thread, please keep responding as I'm interested in the different view points everyone has! :) Some great points have been brought up here, but has anyone or can anyone bring these up to GGM?

Respectfully,

a_s

[The Fighting Edge]

My brother recieved rank in ARJUKEN via my Modern Arnis Instructor since he was better suited to that training. This was way back... was this just a individual move by our instructor or was rank given specifically in "Arjuken" elsewhere or by GM Ernesto Presas at some point?

"Guro John Daniels has over twenty years of experience in the martial arts. He holds the rank of 7th Dan Arnis and Arjuken Karate under Grandmaster Roberto Presas."

Is the key term Arjuken "Karate"? Rather than rank in Arjuken?

Best Regards,

Jason

[armas]

It is ARJUKEN Karate. There are different ways of training. You can be training in Arjuken and still not be learning the whole Arnis system. ARJUKEN Karate =arnis,judo/jujitsu.kendo and karate a hybrid of these arts. It's really hard to explain it.

[timagua]

The topic has deviated a little but I wanted to chime in on the important matters of rank promotion and the style referred to as Arjuken karate.

First about rank - I’d always thought that martial rank could be both good and bad. On the one hand, knowing an instructor’s rank gives the student a clue as to the instructor’s standing within his or her system. On the other hand, there is always the question of validity. How did the instructor earn the rank? How long has he or she been training? What has he or she done to promote the art?

Second on the definition of Arjuken karate - Nobody from the current crop (or who is participating in the forums, anyway) seems to have a clear-cut answer, but I got a pretty good response from an original instructor from the early training days in Manila.

I was fortunate enough to recently obtain Jose G. Paman’s contact information through an acquaintance in Southern Cal. Master Paman is the author of the book “Arnis Self-Defense” which is mentioned in another thread in this forum. Here, with his permission, is how he responded to the matter of rank within Kombatan. He also addressed the question on the art called Arjuken karate, and I will post that separately.



_______________________


Hello _____,

...In assessing ranks under the current system, it would be useful to look at several factors. Here’s a basic analysis:

1) In judo (whose colored belt ranking system was borrowed in principle by karate, aikido, kenpo, taekwondo, arnis and even some silat and capoeira styles), practitioners are generally ranked until fourth dan based on physical abilities and competitive achievements. From fifth dan onward, people are promoted for services rendered to the sport such as introducing new training methods, actively teaching, producing champions, and promoting the sport to a wide audience. Ranking is not always done in a neat, linear fashion and jumps can sometimes take place (from first dan straight to third dan, etc.).

2) Promotional requirements vary from style to style and even from school to school within the same style of martial arts. From my personal experience and observation, the karate, aikido, kenpo and taekwondo groups seem more organized and specific about promotions: “Here is a list of required skills, polish the skills, and be ready to test on such-and-such a date.”

3) Judo and Brazilian jiu jitsu schools, by contrast, don’t generally appear to be structured as such. Students are observed at each session and it is up to the instructor to simply promote the student when he deems it proper. There are, of course, some individual schools that do otherwise.

4) Kombatan ranking is a blend of these varied schools of thought. I started at the Arjuken in 1971, was promoted to likha (brown belt) in 1973, and lakan isa (first degree black belt) in 1975. The testing for lakan isa, by the way, remains one of the hardest things I have ever had to do in my life. We had to test simultaneously in arnis and karate, as the two arts were taught concurrently in those days. This, however, is a story for another day.

Never having been a lakan dalawa (second degree), and without having to test, I jumped to lakan tatlo (third degree) just before I left for California in 1978. I feel this was for my consistent involvement in the Arjuken’s activities for eight straight years. I was an assistant instructor at the main school at Quiapo, and also at the University of Santo Tomas PE classes. I competed in all the tournaments the school participated in, including the First and Second Intercollegiate Karate-Arnis Championships where our team captured first place both times. I also helped organize and performed at the numerous demonstrations we presented all over Manila and in outlying provinces.

After moving to California, I established the state’s first Arjuken chapter in 1983. I was then promoted to lakan apat (fourth degree), again without formal testing. I did, however, meet up with GGM Ernesto Presas at every opportunity to keep up with the changes and innovations to Kombatan as they came about. I have received other promotions, consistently maintaining contact with GGM Presas, since then.

I would not say that rank is not important to me, as this represents the will of GGM Presas. While the option certainly exists for one to decline a certain rank promotion, this may also constitute disrespect to his teacher. I believe the bottom line is that we can’t be contestants and judges at the same time. If GGM states that we are this rank or that, then that is his prerogative to declare and ours to either accept or deny. In my particular case, and I can only speak for myself, I have always considered the promotions an honor. Whether another person then agrees is his private and personal concern...




_______________________



In the next post, and also with his permission, I will present Master Paman’s response to the question on the style called Arjuken karate.

[timagua]

Here is Master Paman’s response to the subject of Arjuken karate:


__________


…About Arjuken karate, I wrote a passage about this in my book “Arnis Self-Defense.” On pages 34 and 35, it reads…


There exists today, particularly in Australia and Canada, a system known as Arjuken karate, popularized by early Presas students. Along with the standard Shotokan kata and its emphasis on the reverse punch and front kick, this method also features dynamic foot techniques, such as the ax, crescent, hook, and spinning hook kicks usually associated with Korean kicking styles.


I can say this with certainty because I was around when the changes took effect. When I first joined the Arjuken in 1971, our karate method followed the mainline Shotokan style. For those unfamiliar, it meant deep stances, reverse punches and front kicks, and an emphasis on “killing blows” that, at least in theory, could stop a man with one shot. We had instructors who taught this very well, including Grandmaster Roberto Presas, Pepe Yap (who was a convert from Okinawan karate), Earl Villanueva (one of my first instructors and a very good karateman), Danny Diaz from Cebu, the tough Willie Madla and of course, GGM Ernesto Presas himself.

After a time, and as members joined in from other arts, we began experimenting with other kicking techniques and started using roundhouse, hook, spinning hook and axe kicks in sparring. This was partly due to the efforts of the late Ray Anthony Alfabeto, Rey de la Merced and Rolando Evangelista (kung-fu men), Alex Pangilinan and Ramon Lizardo (from taekwondo), and others.

The inclusion of these kicks took a long time to happen. During the karate portion of my first black belt test, for instance, I landed a controlled hook kick on the nose of my opponent but they would not recognize the point because it was not a reverse punch or front kick. I then delivered another, more forceful, hook kick on the same spot, and they called me for excessive contact. The kicks were gradually incorporated into the art, as evidenced by its present form. The hand techniques and stances, coincidentally, also changed over the years. I think this confirms GGM Ernesto’s open mindedness in accepting effective technique and method regardless of source. Arjuken karate is, in conclusion, simply the karate style that emerged out of the original Arjuken school at Quiapo in Manila. It integrates punches, strikes and kicks from a number of sources into a singular, dynamic art.

I hope this information helps to clarify certain concerns…




___________________________



Food for thought for those of us interested, coming from an articulate and experienced proponent of Great Grandmaster Ernesto Presas’ art!

- Timagua

[johnzag]

Timagua great posts! Always knew that Arjuken Karate was based on Shotokan Karate but very interesting to see how the techniques in the art were introduced. I really would like to read Mr Paman's book seems like it is very informative.

Speaking to the Aussie guys (Michael Darcy's students) still practicing Arjuken Karate as their main art (not Kombatan) all their Kata's are Shotokan Kata's with the exception of 2 or 3 of the Basic Arnis Forms that are part of the Kombatan Curriculum.

In Australia anyway there is very little stick work being incorporated into the Arjuken Karate Style (Just Basic Stirking and Disarming) don't know if this stands true for other practitioners around the world. Most of the students were Junior students as well so don't know if the Senior Students are being taught more advanced stick techniques here in Aus.

[mamfma]

To all Modern Arnis practitioner under the tutelage of GM Ernesto Presas his system is good. Regarding the Kombatan issues if you know the real story that its... If you know the Real GM Ernesto Presas or the other side still we must give respect.. We must learn to our mistakes. we must be open mind regarding the Modern Arnis Mnao-Mano Filipino Martial Arts.. Still GM Presas he owed a lot to his students that promotes the Modern Arnis.. Without them he will never reach his success..

On my own thinking the FILIPINO MARTIAL ART Especially the MODERN ARNIS practitioners GM Remy Presas promote the 7 master of Tapi-Tapi not Modern Arnis because he thinks that in the future their will having a problem regarding the Art itself.

I think there is no successor of Modern Arnis unless it was Given by any Presas. But how can GM ERnesto Presas Promote a Modern Arnis if the Name of Modern Arnis was never been registered under their name. Thank you.

[arnisador]

I think there is no successor of Modern Arnis unless it was Given by any Presas. But how can GM ERnesto Presas Promote a Modern Arnis if the Name of Modern Arnis was never been registered under their name.

Well, there's no doubt that it's a complicated situation, made worse by the split between the Masters of Tapi-Tapi. Remy Presas' will is still being resolved, if I'm not mistaken.

[The Fighting Edge]

So what does GM Ernesto Presas think of any of his rep's training in other FMA's? I have seen some shifting in peoples lineages (From Ernesto to Remy, From Ernesto to Roberto...) over the years but really don't know the real stories. I wouldn't mind checking out Kombatan but would not want it to restrict my growth in other arts.

It seams unfortunate that the Family appears to have been so split... I hope my kids stay close.

[StixMaster]

From what I have experienced and heard first hand GGM Ernesto A. Presas wants to see FMA to be featured not any particular styles. You see all styles of FMA have something to offer to all martial artists that are seeking knowledge. I hear his call for unity throughout the FMA world. But learn at least one style well before you go out and mix yourself up !! You're in GM Bobby Taboada's area.

[johnzag]

But learn at least one style well before you go out and mix yourself up !!

I think that is the key personally.. Before cross training I think you need to fully understand one system and use that as a base to expand on. As far as training in Kombatan I think from what I have seen that GM E Presas likes people bringing in different techniques from other arts and absorbing them into the system and vice versa he enjoys seeing Kombatan "link" other systems. He often refers to the art as being the connection between other arts.. We did an interview with him in the Philippines for a martial arts magazine in Australia in 2005 and we actually briefly touched on cross training and adding techniques to Kombatan when talking about how he grew the art. I think he was referring more to learning other Filipino styles but his love of Japanese arts is also well known.

[timagua]

Very well put, StixMaster and johnzag! As it’s often said, it is better to learn one system very well than just to sample a little bit of several. From there, one can then begin to look at possibly expanding if he felt the need.

[timagua]

As I had mentioned in a previous post, I had the distinct honor of making the acquaintance of Kombatan Master Jose G. Paman though a friend in Southern California. Master Paman is an accomplished author, Inside Kung-Fu magazine’s 2007 Writer of the Year, and currently on the cover of Rapid Journal, the leading martial arts publication in the Philippines. His book Arnis Self-Defense is an instant classic in FMA literature and available through Random House and most book stores.

Master Alex France of the International Philippine Martial Arts Federation (IPMAF) based in Manila paid him the following tribute:

http://www.presas.org/content/view/17/2/ (http://www.presas.org/content/view/17/2/)


During a recent communication, I asked Master Paman what testing was like in the Arjuken of the 1970s. He responded with this description, presented with his approval.

__________


In the summer of 1975 (actually the summer break from school since the Philippines only recognizes two seasons, wet and dry), the call came for certain individuals to prepare for black belt testing in karate. Although arnis and karate were taught concurrently at the Arjuken, separate testing processes for each art were observed. The subject of arnis testing may be touched upon in a later commentary. As a side note, it may be of interest to readers that during those days, we referred to our karate system at the Arjuken simply as “karate” and not the “Arjuken karate” label that was later coined.

I was one of those selected for this round of testing. An aspect that struck me as particularly challenging was that we were not given specific material to study or practice in preparation for the event. “Know all your basics, stances, blocks, hand strikes, kicks and forms, and make sure you’re in good shape,” was all we were told. The general position of the school seemed to be that if you had to prepare too much for the test, then maybe you weren’t ready yet.

I trained intensely in the weeks leading up to the day, executing countless repetitions of the all-important basic techniques, polishing up my forms, running, and engaging in sparring with other members who were my practice partners. One of these partners was Alex Pangilinan, a convert from taekwondo who had trained for years at the school and was also to be tested. There were two others scheduled together with us: a college student from the Far Eastern University (FEU), and a Filipino-American student who was a member of an Arjuken affiliated group.

At this point, it may help to clarify the fact that within the Arjuken Karate Association in those days, there existed different groups of members. One group consisted of the core instructors present when GGM Ernesto Presas founded the school at Quiapo in 1970. These included his brother GM Roberto Presas, Pepe Yap, Willie Madla, Danny Diaz, Earl Villanueva, Cristino Vasquez, Rene Tongson, Pepito Robas, Rey Yatsu, Jess Arroyo, Jess Bonso and Romy Quiambao. There were the so-called “regular” members who became students by joining off the street. These could range in vocation from manual laborers to office workers.

Another group consisted of high school and university students who attended an institution like the University of Santo Tomas (UST), the University of the Philippines (UP) or the Far Eastern University. Exposed to the art through P.E. classes, these folks were allowed by extension to regularly train at the main school. Another yet that emerged was a sub-group of hardcore Arjuken disciples who regularly trained together and, as a symbol of membership in their faction, branded themselves (branding was a common practice among various fraternal orders of the time, especially college fraternities like the rival Beta Sigma and the Alpha Phi Omega).

The general mood in the gymnasium was not good on the day of the black belt test. Someone mentioned afterward that the teaching staff was not pleased because the testing fees collected did not add up: someone apparently shorted the school either by accident or design. While this may seem not important to the reader, one must bear in mind that this was before the worldwide FMA boom, monthly fees at the school were minimal, and GGM Ernesto was charged with the task of maintaining a gym in the downtown business district.

With a dark cloud looming over the training hall, we were lined up and bowed in. Danny Diaz, a follower of GGM from the Visayas in the southern-central Philippines, was brought in as the chief examiner to give the proceedings objectivity. The rest of the panel consisted of GM Roberto Presas and three other Arjuken instructors. GGM Ernesto observed and gave general directions. The first segment of the test was simple enough: with the other candidates facing away so no one could play follow-the-leader, each of us was called on to demonstrate all the hand and foot techniques we knew alternately in the air, on a makiwara and a heavy bag.

Next came forms. The examiners randomly called out several kata from the heian/pinan series and we executed these on command. We moved on to intermediate and advanced kata, and I performed tekki/naihanchi, bassai dai and kanku dai among several others. We were also given the opportunity to execute advanced forms we knew, regardless of system of origin. I took this opportunity to perform two sets from the five ancestor kung-fu system that I had also been studying. Things were going well so far and I had started to settle in, thinking it would be smooth sailing. This was a mistaken notion.

The next section called for each of us to demonstrate our ability to deal with a surprise attack. To do this, we were made to navigate through a tunnel of six black belts, lined up three on each side, who took turns attacking us with punches, grabs and throws, stick attacks and knife attacks. The kicker was that no one knew which of the six was going to attack. To “survive,” the candidate had to make it to the other side, past the last two black belts. This he accomplished either by simply blocking or evading, or else by blocking and countering with an effective strike, kick, takedown, or combination thereof.

This aspect of the test required an acute sense of anticipation, timing and reaction as you did not know the direction the attack would come from.
Fortunately for us, they broke it down by type of attack: first came the punches; then grabs like headlocks, chokes, bear hugs; then throwing attempts; stick blows; and finally knife attacks. Each participant had to make it through three or four times before moving on to the next kind of attack. On a couple of turns, I tried to simply run through the tunnel and ended up getting struck with a punch or grabbed hard and taken down for the effort. I strived to respond with proper counters from then on.

Further trouble came about in the stick and the knife attack portions of this tunnel test. One can attribute this to youthful folly or prefer some other justification but, to help the both of us out, Alex and I began telling each other which of the men in the tunnel had the stick or knife. The procedure was that the candidate whose turn was up faced the opposite direction as the six black belts passed the weapon among themselves. The one who ended up with the weapon then hid it behind him in preparation for the candidate trying to pass through. Alex would tell me “so-and-so has it” and I would do the same. After two or three passes, the testing panel noticed it. This infuriated them further and they made all of us face the wall away from the tunnel. It also set the tone for the bruising portions of the test to follow.

The tunnel challenge over with, and without a break, we then lined up for sparring. We candidates first fought each other in round robin fashion, with two solid points scored finishing each round, before we rotated again. Fighting the Fil-Am candidate proved to be especially challenging as he outweighed the rest of us by a good amount of poundage, had a judo background, and proceeded to charge in and throw us down to the hardwood floor using techniques like osoto gari, de ashi barai and ogoshi. Our knowledge of breakfalls saved us from serious damage but if we expected any help from the testing panel, we got none. In fact, all the guy got in the way of a warning was the admonition to deliver a punch after he had thrown one of us down so he could score a point! This caused me to have to adjust by angling out of his way and countering with hard punches and the occasional hook kick and spinning hook kick to the face. The Arjuken closely followed the more mainline Shotokan karate approach in those days and they didn’t call points for the hook kicks but these seemed to slow him down considerably.

After several turns, and with all of us beginning to wear out, we thought the testing was over. The panel had other ideas, however, and we were made to fight two-on-one matches where two candidates worked in tandem against a third one. We tried to take it easy knowing our deteriorating physical condition but someone called out, “Fight harder!” and so we had to pick up the pace and strike each other more forcefully.

Again thinking this was the end, the limits of our endurance were further strained when we were required to spar with two high-ranking black belts from the panel. I first drew Willie Madla, an old-timer at the school, and actually one of my first instructors. I knew I would have a hard time as Willie possessed excellent timing and distancing skills. He was the type of practitioner who could make someone miss by just an inch or two and immediately be in with a hard counter. Fighting him seriously sapped what energy I had left, but I managed to pick up a third wind and continue.

Lastly came a bout with Danny Diaz, the chief examiner in the test. Danny was also a good fighter, not as refined as Willie Madla, but tough and dedicated. He had bested two practitioners from another school in his native Visayas in one day, the story went, when the two disparaged the Arjuken name. He was also at the time preparing to compete in Karate-Arnis Pilipino, a Manila fighting league pitting karateka, boxers, kickboxers, taekwondoists and kung-fu men in gloved ring matches. Similarly, he did not cut me any slack, driving in and delivering pounding reverse punches and front kicks. Danny drove me down a few times with devastating blows and while I tried to return equal fire, he clearly dominated the exchanges.

They finally lined us up again and, while the final tallies were not ready yet, Danny Diaz gave a speech about how obtaining the karate black belt did not signify the end, but rather the beginning, of training. This gave us a clue that the four of us had passed. This was confirmed later and we went through the Arjuken initiation ceremony in effect at the time, a practice not meant for print, but which posed a further challenge proving that nothing in the school was free; that the student truly had to prove himself to progress.

In closing, I must say that most of the practices at the old Arjuken would likely land an instructor in jail, or else make him the subject of a lawsuit, in contemporary times. The preceding commentary has been presented nonetheless to give the current-day student an appreciation for how some Arjuken instructors earned their karate ranks under GGM Ernesto Presas some 30 years ago.

_________

A rare glimpse into a long-gone world of hardcore training in the 1970s Philippines!

- Timagua

[johnzag]

Timagua thanks for the post love reading about the history of the art and the experiences of all the older more experienced players. It gives a fantastic appreciation on how these guys all became so competent in the arts taught by GM Ernesto.
It would be really interesting to see how GM's newish generation of Lakans stand up to the founding instructors. Is there now a greater depth of techniques? Where does the focus lie as compared to those who trained in the 70's & 80's? etc..
I know that these days the Filipino lakans such as Master Oliver, Master Allan, Master Michael and not to mention GM's son and chief instructor of Kombatan Master Jan are all fantastic arnisadors but would love to fully understand how the generations have developed & evolved.
Very Interesting stuff, love it!

[Twist]

I've seen a Video of a Blackbelt-Test (prob. 10 Blackbelts) in Germany at a seminar in the 70s or 80s.. and it was tough! Thats what I'd love to see again...

[arnisador]

What was the test like?

[johnzag]

Would be very interesting to see what different people had to do for the black belt testing in Kombatan.. What different flavours of the art and experiences are out there.

[Lam Ang]

Interesting.
Thank you



Is there many people around (This site) who studied in an Arjuken school?


Your Brother
John
...i am one of them. You can compare it from the JKA Instructors Course. As to the "ARJUKEN Boys" we trained side by side with the young GGM Ernesto presas Sr. the Junior Presas was only 8 years old by then.

[armas]

I am an Arhuken boy too. I went thru something similar from what you read of Jose Paman's experience. Except our ARJUKEN brothers also had a ritualistic ceremony at the end. Later as I became an instructor of this School I also participated in as one of the Attackers or testers as you call them.

As I can explain it. You had to have the heart of a Fighter. If you did not it was easy to give up. You also needed to have a fighter's mentality.

Damn this brings back memories. I was training with Jan Presas. We were like brothers. Our seniors were GM Cristino Vasquez, SM Bambit Dulay, SM Dave Labiano, SM Mark Santos, etc.

[eskrimador]

Kombatan, as we can say a complete, not 100%, martial arts can we can used for street slef defense.

In the 70's til mid 80's, we used to train in separate schedules, one day for karate, one day for jujitsu and a day for arnis. But this system, produced many well rounded martial artist in Manila like Mark Santos, Daniel Rollon, Bambit Dulay, Joel Anajao, etc. Most of them have their own groups now, but still giving their gratitude to GGM Ernie which lead them to became a wholistic martial artist. M. Santos is propagating his jujitsu-arnis system, B. Dulay is the moving machine of IFMAP (with out him, IMAFP will not be formalized in the Philippines, given then opportunity that most of Arjuken former instructors identified him as the leader, these people (specially Bambit and Anajao) and there students were the first who became the mass of IMAF in the Philippines.)Anajao is pioneer of propagating Sports Arnis in many schools (aside from ArPhi), Ryukyu Kobudo, Goju Ryu, kenjutsu and Haedong Kumdo.

All of them, with out GGM Ernesto Presas, will never be a multi-martial arts pioneers in the Philippines.

GGM Ernesto's decision to give his full time to FMA is the best thing happened. He must be the legal and moral inheritor of Modern Arnis after GM Remy. But, I think, he paved his own way.

[tomh]

I (4th degree) studied (6 yrs) up in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada under Bernardo Lingasin (8th degree) and his 2 sons Earl & Kevin (both 6th degree) who had all studied under Grandmaster Presas. I'm now living in Illinois but not in it as my knees and legs are shot. We did however, make all the students become very familiar on knowledge about Grandmaster Presas, arjuken and the different events in his life. I just missed meeting Grandmaster Presas when he came to visit our dojo which of course was my loss. We were known throughout Canada as Mano Y Mano and we sent a few students to the Phillipines to study.

[Twist]

Just wondering.. 6 years from zero to 4th degree (blackbelt?)? Or any previous experience?

[tomh]

I have been in Martial arts first with a Japanese style here in Illinois for 3 yrs then I joined the Air Force and spent 4 years in Japan but was only able to study 2 years while I was there. Later I was in Tang soo do while I was stationed in Alabama and studied that for 4 years, then I spent 1 year in Tai Kwon Do before I started studying Arnis in Canada. So basically I have been around martial arts for quite awhile but with spending 20 years in the military, raising a family and going to college the longest period of time I was able to spend at one time was the 6 years i was in Canada.

[tomh]

Twist I know that was a brief quick history but I am at work right now and unfortunately i do not get to spend a long time on the site at one time. I'll try to get on here this weekend when i can spend more time i just found the site today so I was glad just to hear from anyone just coming onto the site for the first time. Thank you for the interest

[Twist]

Actually, thats all I wanted to hear. Sounds like you've been "in the business" quite a while and that puts the relatively short time of 6 years in perspective.

Thanks ;)

[tomh]

Twist where you at in germany? i was stationed in Spain for 4 years and my brother was stationed in germany(Hahn and Ramstein) I was at Weisbaden 1981

[Twist]

Freiburg in the Blackforrest ... although I'm here only about 6 months/year (and 6 months in SE-Asia... hopefully moving for good next year)