Edgar G. Sulite is the Founder of Lameco Eskrima

[Guro Dave Gould]

Jakeshinryu,

After receiving a private e-mail from you I am now deeply concerned as to what your motives are in what you have recently posted on this forum. However I am still unsure as to what you hope to accomplish by writing what you have written here. You wrote to me in a private e-mail:

*** " Hi Guro Dave! I'm a direct student of PG Helacrio "Jun" Sulite,Jr. of Arnis Sulite Philippines (SUDULA SYSTEM), the eldest brother of PG Edgar, who influenced him his eskrima career before settling in USA.
LAMECO is a translation of PG Edgar to SUDULA abbreviation, a visayan dialect here in mindanao phils. which means SUOD DUOL LAYO, SUOD=close range/corto, DUOL=medium range/medio, LAYO=long range/largo." ***

Just because something translates itself as "Long-Medium-Close" this does not make it "Lameco Eskrima". It only means that the two systems share a common acronym. Which has absolutey no bearing on the components, techniques, philosophies and combative concepts that each is uniquely made up of.

"Arnisudula" is not "Lameco Eskrima" and "Lameco Eskrima" is not "Arnisudula". They are as uniqe and different from one another as are the two brothers; Helcrio Sulite Jr. and Edgar G. Sulite who created them individualy. Are there similarities as each of these men shared at least 3 common Instructors (Helacrio Sulite Sr., Jose D. Caballero and Leo Tortal gaje jr.)? I am sure that there would have to be some similarities to a minimal deree. But not remotely enough to declare that the two systems are identical in everyway and that both are one, this would be absurd!

As I see it these two brothers and two systems are comparitive to two brothers growing up in the same household and learning the same language and principles from the same parents. However at some point in time the way that one will phrase what he wants to communicate will be slightly different than the other based on individual understanding and preference, as well one may swear and one may not, one may choose to be very conversational and the other may choose to be quiet, again based on individual preference and identy.

Like wise two individuals can share the same parents growing up in the same environment being introduced to the same values and moral code yet one may stray and become a thief and choose to live in the underbelly of the society and the other will choose to live a righteous life obeying the laws of our creator and never reverting to criminal activity. Based entirely on individual perception, understanding and conviction of the principles which make up who we are as unique individuals.

The following is what Edgar G. Sulite wrote in his first book; "The Secrets of Arnis" (circa 1985):

" My eldest brother, the first born of the family, Helacrio Sulite Jr., acted as my second teacher in the absence of my father. Like the elder Sulite he kept a close watch in my development as an Arnis fighter and has helped me build up my self-confidense. With this familiar background plus my close association with numerous Masters I was able to gather enough first hand information and compare the existing techniques, and pick up the most salient features which I integrate in my own system of fighting".

This is consistant with what Edgar G. Sulite has always stated and it is more believable as the father would be the first teacher and the eldest brother would act as second teacher to the younger sibling in the absence of his father. This is high praise from the younger brother; Edgar G. Sulite concerning his eldest brother. From what he wrote in his first book as well as his third, Helacrio Sulite Jr. was not wronged but rather given high praise and acknowledgement for his influence on Edgar G. Sulite.

But to say that "Lameco Eskrima" is really "Arnisudula" is an insult and a blemish on the memory of Edgar G. Sulite. I hope to god that this is not the case and if it is I can only hope that Helacrio Sulite Jr. is not advocating this, as that would be a grave insult and sign of utter disrespect to the legacy and memory of his younger sibling to the highest degree.

You also wrote in your private e-mail:

*** " We know that Lameco practitioners now are disintegrating if im not mistaken. Their are few things that PG EDgar did not learn from his brother of which i learn and enjoy it now. Sad to say that PG Edgar did not recognize his Brother as his real teacher who influenced him much before he left for manila and in USA.
If you want to upgrade your LAMECO knowledge, feel free to visit PG "Jun" Sulite Jr here in Ozamiz City Philippines or contact PG Sulite in his mobile ############. or open my friendster account jakeshinryu@yahoo.com so that you can see the picture of PG "Jun" Sulite,JR.,the 1979 International arnis champion." ***

First off Lameco Eskrima is still very strong, I can assure you and everyone else reading this that Lameco Eskrima is not "disintegrating" as you claim! We, the Recognized Standard Bearers and "Backyard Group" of Edgar G. Sulite are still very much active. We may not be prostituting the system as most would want but we are very secluded in whom we choose as students and the selection of future teachers who will one day be charged to propagate this knowledge to future generations to come. Fear not, the system is still being taught on an International level and it is still very much sought after by those in the know.

As far as me "upgrading" my knowledge in "Lameco Eskrima" there is nothing that you or your group can share with me in that regard as you are training in "Arnisudula" and have no concept of Lameco Eskrima as Edgar G. Sulite knew and taught it to us his fraternal family. So I thankfully decline your offer. If for what ever reason, one day in the future I should decide to take up "Arnisudula" I may consider your offer to train with Helacrio Sulite Jr.

Which leaves me with this point. If it is true what you are claiming why did Helacrio Sulite Jr. not address this issue right away when Lameco Eskrima was created in 1981? Why did he not take up his argument with an international audience when he was interviewed in 1985 for the book "Secrets of Arnis"? Why did he not make mention of this in his interview in 1989 for the book "The Masters of Arnis, Kali & Eskrima"? Why wait until after the International success of Lameco Eskrima some 29 yrs after its inception and almost 13 years after the death of Edgar G. Sulite to make these claims?

A few years ago I had to deal with these same claims on this same forum from a very notable Master from the philippines and it was just as distasteful then as this attempt is now. Why is it so hard for some to leave the dead to rest in peace! Again I have only heard of great things about Helacrio Sulite Jr. up until you posted on this forum that is, but if what you are saying is correct and that Helacrio Sulite Jr. is knowledgeable of and supports your claims I am simply appalled that this would surface now, true or not. The dead can not defend themselves in the land of the living, but be assured that the students who knew Edgar G. Sulite best as a teacher, a mentor and a best friend will not allow anyone, whoever they may be to blemish his good name and reputation.

My only intention here is to keep the record clear and not to allow anyone to assassinate the character and good reputation of my Instructor, Mentor and Friend; Edgar G. Sulite. May he finally rest in Peace!!!

Regards,
Guro Dave Gould.

[jwinch2]

Interesting.

[Guro Dave Gould]

Hi guys,

When I wrote the following in the above post:

*** "A few years ago I had to deal with these same claims on this same forum from a very notable Master from the philippines and it was just as distasteful then as this attempt is now. Why is it so hard for some to leave the dead to rest in peace! Again I have only heard of great things about Helacrio Sulite Jr. up until you posted on this forum that is, but if what you are saying is correct and that Helacrio Sulite Jr. is knowledgeable of and supports your claims I am simply appalled that this would surface now, true or not. The dead can not defend themselves in the land of the living, but be assured that the students who knew Edgar G. Sulite best as a teacher, a mentor and a best friend will not allow anyone, whoever they may be to blemish his good name and reputation." ***

What I was eluding to was that a few years ago a highly recognized Grand Master from a well known system was claiming that Lameco Eskrima was his own creation. Not that some one else came forwad and claimed that Helacrio Sulite jr. had created Lameco Eskrima. This is the first that I have heard these specific accusations, which is why I wanted to clear the record quickly before too much damage has been inflicted on the system of Lameco Eskrima and the memory of Edgar G. Sulite.

I just wanted to clarify this one point. In the same vain numerous people have come forward over the years since the death of Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite and fraudiently claimed high rank and status in Lameco Eskrima when it was quickly proven that these people had only attended a couple of his seminars and had never trained extensively under his very astute tutelage, much less receiving promotion to propagate his system under his hand. Some had never even met and trained with PG Sulite at all and were claiming Master status in the system.

Far too many people on this crazy planet of ours are simply opportunists, and who better to make false claims against than the dead who are utterly defenseless in confirming or denying such claims for themselves. It is bad enough that people not in your circle make such claims but when those who were considered within your circle come forth the damage and insult is all the greater.

Since he can no longer speak for himself, We the Guardians of the Legacy of PG Edgar G. Sulite, his chosen Standard Bearers of his system, are all that remain to ensure that his good name and reputation is not raped and pillaged for the self publicity and selfish benefit of others.

Regards,
Guro Dave Gould.

[gagimilo]

I was hesitantly contemplating about making a response in a similar vain as Guro Gould, but he did it so much more elborately, plus with the additional references from the PM he received...not to mention his much more competent position in Lameco!

I understand that some people may think (most of them probably rightfully so) that their teachers deserve more exposure and attention, but unfortunately some of them will opt for inadequate ways of achieving it, either intentionally or unintentinally.

In that regard, I would be glad to see mroe writings from jakeshinryu, relating to the Sudula system that he trains in, but only if devoid of disregarding attitude towards PG Edgar Sulite and his Lameco.

Oh, and by the way, was not the system of Helarci Sulite called Rapellon?

[jakeshinryu]

I and PG Helacrio Sulite Jr. are glad that Guro Dave really protect the name of LAMECO, I adm8 that i insist that Helacrio Jr. was the original teacher of Edgar, my purpose is to test the LAMECO practitioners how will they protect the reputation of LAMECO. Yes, both of them trained together under the tutelage of their father, in the absence of their father, the eldest brother toke charge in watching the development of Edgar. Edgar asked permission from his brother to use the logo for LAMECO.
Unfortunately, the statement of Guro Dave that PG SULITE Jr. didn't undergo training of De Campo 1-2-3 Orihinal, Pekiti Tersia, Kalis Ilustrisimo and Modernos Largos, it's a great insult of PG SULITE Jr. THese 4 Arnis Institutions, PG SULITE Jr has undergone training in the Grandmasters of these systems, in fact THe eldest brother force EDGAr to join him as he practice in the said different art. PG SULITE Jr is the protegee of De Campo (refer to Mark Wiley's writings and find it in the net), PG SULITE JR was given the hidden/secret weapon technique of GM Caballero of which Eric Olavides(De Campo Master) did not possess it.Even the son of the late Caballero was given the secret weapon techniques because of abusive attitudes.
When Tuhon Leo GAje jr. arrived in OZamiz, PG SULITE Jr. and Tuhon sparred and shared techniques in front of Ozamiz City Hall as early as 3 o'clock in the morning and Edgar was force by his brother to join with him in the next morning session. If you doubt, ask Tuhon Gaje regarding this issue. Jesus abella, GM of Modernos Largos, he taught PG SULITE Jr. the techniques of the said system, in fact GM Abella was hit in the left eye by PG SULITE Jr when they sparred and shared techniques.
PG SULITE Jr pick up the salient features of different systems as he integrate it to his SUDULA SYSTEM aside from RAPELLON family system.
IF you want truth, visit in the Philippines and gather information about PG SULITE Jr. HE is now a 12th Dan White and Goldbelt of Arnis Sulite (SUDULA SYSTEM).
The reason why PG SULITE Jr. didn't react to an international crowd regarding the creation of LAMECO, his mother advised him to let go but at first PG SULITE Jr was dismayed of not acknowledging him as the author the system but PG SULITE Jr was considering LAMECO as the replica of SUDULA. Sulite RAPELLON was the family system and the number one component of creating SUDULA and the four mentioned system were added in the SUDULA Creation which was translated as LAMECO. PG SULITE JR undergone training from other masters aside from the 4 systems. Anyway, PG SULITE jr was happy of the flourishing name of LAMECO worldwide. We just consider that SUDULA was the mother system of LAMECO. We know Lameco curriculum and the lacking portion of Lameco because Edgar cannot absorb some techniques of which his brother was trying to teach because of Edgar's condition in his thigh to avoid injury of the stainless inside of the bone.
PG SULITE Jr. knows LAMECO from it's beginning and it's highlight techniques and what is lacking. MY Challenge, investigate here in the Philippines not in US because it is here is the birthplace of LAMECO. Please don't get mad at this.
Ask Tuhon Leo Gaje,Jr. who Punong Guro Sulite Jr is.
If GM Caballero Tatang Ilustrisimo are still alive, they can testify and attest. Both of us (PG Sulite Jr) are not sure if Jesus Abella is still alive.
Please do not consider this as an appalling information but use it as basis for investigation.
I will not say this if i did not hear these from my both ears.
I'm training under the tutelage of PG SULITE Jr for almost 5years(batch 2005).
Please do not mind if you don't care.
Mabuhay tayong lahat na Mandirigmang Pinoy.

God Bless Us All,

jakeshinryu
FMA & MMA enthusiast

[gagimilo]

Well, in that case, if your true goal is to stimulate people to do their research, maybe you could help by actually the information on SUDULA more readily available on the Internet. Namely, the only place where it is passingly mentioned is on the web site of Leo Quilaton of K3, but not in too much detail.

Again, maybe it is time for you guys to finally put together a coherent presentation and offer it to the public, otherwise if you proceed this way, I'm afraid you will keep on giving the impression of wishing to step on other people's toes.

[jwinch2]

Well, in that case, if your true goal is to stimulate people to do their research, maybe you could help by actually the information on SUDULA more readily available on the Internet. Namely, the only place where it is passingly mentioned is on the web site of Leo Quilaton of K3, but not in too much detail.

Again, maybe it is time for you guys to finally put together a coherent presentation and offer it to the public, otherwise if you proceed this way, I'm afraid you will keep on giving the impression of wishing to step on other people's toes.

I agree with that statement completely. I tried to do a search now a couple of times and as stated, the only place you can find it is in a reference by people from other obscure styles claiming to have trained in it. Unfortunately, with the way that FMA styles are popping up all over the place these days one has to be skeptical.

[Raul]

If GM Caballero Tatang Ilustrisimo are still alive, they can testify and attest.

jakeshinryu
FMA & MMA enthusiast
Lol! Testify and attest about what?

You know what.. you can easily promote your school/system/style by simply creating a decent website or post your videos on YouTube. People will naturally flock to ask and see for themselves because of the similar last names and similar meaning of acronyms. You don't have to denigrate a dead man to elevate another man and his fma system.

What's exactly your point anyway? Do you want to promote another fma guy or demote an already dead fma guy? Or both?

[De Campo JDC-IO]

Jakeshinryu,

Would you be so kind as to supply more information in regards to GM Helacrio Sulite Jr. training with GM Caballero? More specifically the dates. In my conversations with Manong Eric he never mentioned GM Helacrio Sulite Jr. I am not doubting you but I would like to have a clearer picture. Just because things are written in books and articles on the net do not make them facts. NO disrespect intended to Mr Wiley. I do agree that one should do research if it is that important to find the "secret weapon technique" you mentioned. Good luck with that!

[jwinch2]

Jakeshinryu,

Would you be so kind as to supply more information in regards to GM Helacrio Sulite Jr. training with GM Caballero? More specifically the dates. In my conversations with Manong Eric he never mentioned GM Helacrio Sulite Jr. I am not doubting you but I would like to have a clearer picture. Just because things are written in books and articles on the net do not make them facts. NO disrespect intended to Mr Wiley. I do agree that one should do research if it is that important to find the "secret weapon technique" you mentioned. Good luck with that!

Good questions. I would also be interested in knowing the exact reference in Wiley that is being referred to. I have two of his books and do not recall such a reference. I would like follow up but don't particularly want to sift through two entire books to do it.

Thanks,

[Guro Dave Gould]

Jakeshinryu,

Interesting, but if you and Helacrio Sulite Jr. continue with this attempt to discredit Edgar G. Sulite as Founder of Lameco Eskrima, all that you will achieve in the end is contempt and condemnation from Lameco Eskrima practitioners. Did you really think that uppon your "enriching" us with this information that we would run to you and your group and replace our beloved teacher with a "golden Idol" of some sort. I trained under Edgar G. Sulite moreso because of who he was as a person than what his resume stated about him. He was a great teacher and warrior but most importantly he was an honorable person. I can tell you that if he were alive today he would not shame the reputation of any of those that he cared for especially those in his immediate family.

Personally I do not know Helacrio Sulite Jr. but thought well of him for years solely on what I heard fron Edgar G. Sulite concerning him, now I have to be honest in stating publically that if he is willing to discredit his own brother and attempt to take credit for what Edgar G. Sulite has accomplished Helacrio Sulite Jr. is not the man that I thought that he was. Moreso He does not sound like the man that I would want to be associated with. I think that it is shameful what he is trying to do and with such statements why does he not come forward him self and make these claims using his own name? Why send some one who never met Edgar G. Sulite from "Batch 5" (2005) of "Arnisudula" who is living in the shadow of his moniker instead of stating to us all his true identity? Who are you? If you are trying to convince us all of something that none of us believe the least that you can do is come out of the shadows with your identity.

now to respond to your post point by point:

*** "I and PG Helacrio Sulite Jr. are glad that Guro Dave really protect the name of LAMECO, I adm8 that i insist that Helacrio Jr. was the original teacher of Edgar, my purpose is to test the LAMECO practitioners how will they protect the reputation of LAMECO." ***

If you had come forward and stated who you were with and who you represented then you would have had some of your staunchest allies and friends in the arts. But now that you discredit our Founder and system no true Lameco Eskrima practitioner, much less those of us personally chosen and appointed as Standard Bearers by Edgar G. Sulite himself will take your group or teacher serious now.

*** "Yes, both of them trained together under the tutelage of their father, in the absence of their father, the eldest brother toke charge in watching the development of Edgar." ***

True, If the father was the first to teach Edgar G. Sulite how could Helacrio Sulite Jr. be the real teacher of Edgar G. Sulite? You admit as did Edgar G. Sulite in "Secrets of Arnis" that only in their fathers absense did Helacrio Sulite Jr. act as "Second" instructor to Edgar in absense of his father, meaning that the father was Edgar G. Sulites first and "Real" instructor? Not Helacrio Sulite Jr.

*** "Edgar asked permission from his brother to use the logo for LAMECO." ***

Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr. said that he suggested this to Edgar as a name for his system, was he in on this early conspiracy to wrong Helacrio Sulite Jr. as well? For the sake of argument lets say that Helacrio Sulite Jr. did suggest that Edgar G. Sulite use the acronym "Largo-medio-corto" this has no bearing on what Edgar chose to include in his system it only means that they share a concept of using the same acronym in different dialects alone, nothing more and nothing less.

*** "Unfortunately, the statement of Guro Dave that PG SULITE Jr. didn't undergo training of De Campo 1-2-3 Orihinal, Pekiti Tersia, Kalis Ilustrisimo and Modernos Largos, it's a great insult of PG SULITE Jr. THese 4 Arnis Institutions" ***

You and your Instructor claim that my Teacher; Edgar G. Sulite was a liar and made false claims to Lameco Eskrima and you are insulted... I find the irony in this to be quite loud indeed. First off if you read my response to you you will notice that I gave credit to Helacrio Sulite Jr. for sharing three instructors with his brother Edgar; Helacrio Sulite Sr. (Sulite Rapelon), Jose D. Caballero (De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal) and Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr. (Kali Pekiti-Tirsia). I have never heard of Helacrio Sulite Jr. training with Masters Illustrisimo, Cabahug or Abella. Which is why I did not make mention of them.

*** "PG SULITE Jr has undergone training in the Grandmasters of these systems, in fact THe eldest brother force EDGAr to join him as he practice in the said different art. PG SULITE Jr is the protegee of De Campo (refer to Mark Wiley's writings and find it in the net), PG SULITE JR was given the hidden/secret weapon technique of GM Caballero of which Eric Olavides(De Campo Master) did not possess it.Even the son of the late Caballero was given the secret weapon techniques because of abusive attitudes." ***

It was Benjamin "Jun" Pueblos and Lowell Pueblos that made the introduction to Manong Caballero for Edgar. Maybe Helacrio Sulite Jr. trained from time to time with Manong Caballero, but he is absolutely not the protege of "the old man". I would love to hear Helacrio Sulite Jr. make this claim to GM Eric Olivides just to hear his take on this as he is the rightful heir and true protege of Manong Caballero and De campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal. Unless that his Manong Caballero mistook himself and did not clear this bit of information with Mark Wiley before hand and made his last wishes known before he died in 1987.

*** "When Tuhon Leo GAje jr. arrived in OZamiz, PG SULITE Jr. and Tuhon sparred and shared techniques in front of Ozamiz City Hall as early as 3 o'clock in the morning and Edgar was force by his brother to join with him in the next morning session. If you doubt, ask Tuhon Gaje regarding this issue." ***

I have, Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr. was my first teacher in Eskrima. I began training with him in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia when I was very young both here in the US and the Philippines alike. It was Edgar G. Sulite that rose to the number three position of Kali Pekiti Tirsia world wide just before following Tuhon Gajes advice to start his own system. Not Helacrio Sulite Jr...

The following is the Preface written by Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. on behalf of Edgar G. Sulites first book: "Secrets of Arnis";

" It is astonishing to know inspite of the difficulties in life, your devotion and dedication to the art of Arnis has been developed to a high degree of development through your constant research and practice and through the help of other masters of Arnis. Your effort is highly commendable and your book will help the practioner to understand how hard and tedious the road to successis. Wish you good luck and God speed."

Tuhon Gaje said nothing of Helacrio Sulite Jr. nor has he said anything of him in specific when Tuhon gaje and I spoke of the early days of Lameco Eskrima and Pekiti-Tirsia. Did Helacrio Sulite Jr. train in Kali pekiti-tirsia? I am told that he did but he did not rise to the top, which is why I gave him credit for training with Tuhon Gaje.


*** "Jesus abella, GM of Modernos Largos, he taught PG SULITE Jr. the techniques of the said system, in fact GM Abella was hit in the left eye by PG SULITE Jr when they sparred and shared techniques." ***

I`ll have to take your word on that. But the Introduction to GM Abella was made on Edgar Sulites behalf by GM Cabahug who he met traveling on the road in front of his house while a young Edgar was beating the tire dummy with his stick one morning. As a matter of fact in the last interview both GMS Cabahug and Abella gave for the book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima" both GMS gave Edgar the highest prasie and both announced that Edgar was their chosen heir to Modernos Largos should both of them pass away. Not Helacrio Sulite Jr.

*** "PG SULITE Jr pick up the salient features of different systems as he integrate it to his SUDULA SYSTEM aside from RAPELLON family system.
IF you want truth, visit in the Philippines and gather information about PG SULITE Jr. HE is now a 12th Dan White and Goldbelt of Arnis Sulite (SUDULA SYSTEM)." ***

So did Edgar G. Sulite pick up his own version of of salient features of different systems under which he trained and integrated it into "Lameco Eskrima", also aside from Sulite Rapelon.

*** "The reason why PG SULITE Jr. didn't react to an international crowd regarding the creation of LAMECO, his mother advised him to let go but at first PG SULITE Jr was dismayed of not acknowledging him as the author the system but PG SULITE Jr was considering LAMECO as the replica of SUDULA." ***

He would have been well advised to have listened to his mother. My brother passed away in 1984 and there is nothing that I would say to disgrace his memory, all the money and fame in the world would not be enough to sacrifice my integrity to such proportions. Having integrity means doing the right thing even when no one is looking.

*** "Sulite RAPELLON was the family system and the number one component of creating SUDULA and the four mentioned system were added in the SUDULA Creation which was translated as LAMECO. PG SULITE JR undergone training from other masters aside from the 4 systems." ***

Interesting because Lameco Eskrima was also inclusive of Sulite Rapelon, De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, Kali Illustrisimo andModernos Largos. In all honesty I never even heard of "Arnisudula" until i read Edgar G. Sulite`s last book: the "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima". Whereas i have known of Lameco Eskrima since its inception in 1981.

*** "Anyway, PG SULITE jr was happy of the flourishing name of LAMECO worldwide." ***

I am sure that he would be if he were to plan to steal credit for it 13 years after his dearly departed brother passed away.

*** "We just consider that SUDULA was the mother system of LAMECO. We know Lameco curriculum and the lacking portion of Lameco because Edgar cannot absorb some techniques of which his brother was trying to teach because of Edgar's condition in his thigh to avoid injury of the stainless inside of the bone." ***

I remember often when Edgar would not teach me something for the same reason. That "stainless thigh injury inside the bone" can be a real bitch to recover from. Lets not forget that it is also the mother system of De Campo uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal as well.

*** "PG SULITE Jr. knows LAMECO from it's beginning and it's highlight techniques and what is lacking. MY Challenge, investigate here in the Philippines not in US because it is here is the birthplace of LAMECO. Please don't get mad at this." ***

Trust me I am not mad, if this whole thing was not so pathetic it would be quite laughable. However it is a sad commentary to the degree that a person will degrade his values and integrity for a shot at fame and riches. Nothing his sacred to a man that would betray his own brother, just my opinion.

*** "Ask Tuhon Leo Gaje,Jr. who Punong Guro Sulite Jr is.
If GM Caballero Tatang Ilustrisimo are still alive, they can testify and attest." ***

Yeah, funny that Manong Caballero and "Tatang" Illustrisimo also would be amongst the dead and not able to confirm or deny these allegations. A coincidence I am sure.

*** "Both of us (PG Sulite Jr) are not sure if Jesus Abella is still alive.
Please do not consider this as an appalling information but use it as basis for investigation." ***

I am appalled! as should anyone who reads what has been posted here. This is disgraceful and serves no purpose but self promotion built on deceipt and mistruths.

*** "I will not say this if i did not hear these from my both ears.
I'm training under the tutelage of PG SULITE Jr for almost 5years(batch 2005)." ***

Hmmmm quite the kunundrum, what to do, What to do? should I believe you and Helacrio Sulite Jr. whom I have never met? Or the man that I hold in the highest respect as my Instructor, Mentor and Best friend from 1992 until his passing in 1997? Call me crazy but i will stay with Punong guro Edgar Sulite the Founder of Lameco Eskrima. But good luck with that "Arnisudula" thing that you have going on, it sounds promising.

*** "Please do not mind if you don't care." ***

I am not without a sense of humor, but finally we agree on something.

On a serious note It would be better if Helacrio Sulite Jr. were to write here in person and try and explain himself, more so than you writing on his behalf. His allegations are quite serious and nothing will come from these postings here on this public forum but shame, contempt and condemnation concerning "Arnisudula", Lameco Eskrima, Helacrio Sulite Jr. and Edgar G. Sulite. Not to mention this turning out like so many other Filipino Warrior Arts that get torn apart and thrown in the trash heap blemishing not only the parties directly involved but the Pilipino Warrior Art community in general.

It is no wonder why so many who look into our community of Warrior Arts from the Philippines go else where for training when they see that the most knowledgeable of these fighting arts can not seem to do anything but slander and discredit each other for pride and ego.

Good training to you. Ciao.

Guro Dave Gould.

[gagimilo]

You know, there might be something good com9ing out of all this...mess. I mean, we have people from Ilustrisimo (Raoul) and De Campo (Jay) appearing and showing their high regards for the late PG Edgar, therefore the mother arts of Lameco gathering in some kind of reunion. Kinda neat, is it not?

[Twist]

You know what.. you can easily promote your school/system/style by simply creating a decent website or post your videos on YouTube. People will naturally flock to ask and see for themselves because of the similar last names and similar meaning of acronyms.
So true.. YouTube and the name "Sulite" ... nothing more would have been required. Instead it ends in another shameful propaganda campaign.

Luckily, with Lameco-practitioners like Guro Dave and contemporary witnesses like Mang Tony Diego, Mang Eric Olavides and others it should be easy to resolve this matter.

[De Campo JDC-IO]

In all honesty, I bet if I ever mentioned this topic of Manong Eric he would just laugh and say something like "just let it be". But I get annoyed when people attempt to bend history and facts for their own self interest. Come on Philipp, (if that’s your real name) why not let SUDULA stand on its on two feet instead of resorting to degrading, both the living and the ones who have left us? I do have high regards for LAMECO Eskrima and PG Edgar, just like I have high regard for all arts and their practitioners, who do not need to resort to mud slinging in order to be recognized.

[Guro Dave Gould]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to thank everyone who came forth and expressed their personal views and input on this subject matter. Your participation has been much appreciated by myself and the Lameco Eskrima family.

The shame of this is that had "Jakeshinryu" come forward and simply introduced himself and stated that he was a student of Helacrio Sulite Jr. and offered up "Arnisudula" as a companion art to "Lameco Eskrima" because the two brothers shared the same background growing up and shared similar experiences in training under a few of the same Instructors, I am sure that alot of us, myself being one of those, would have thrown our support, or at a minimum our interest, behind him and his group and wished them well.

But when someone with malintent comes on a public forum dedicated to Lameco Eskrima and makes false allegations that the founder of said system stole the name, concept and curriculum from someone that they represent and attempt to assissinate the founders name, reputation and memory, that individual has crossed a line that should not be crossed in good conscience.

I apologize to everyone who has parused this thread for the negative conotations that these recent posts have possibly had on Lameco Eskrima, the Sulite family reputation and the Pilipino Warrior Arts in general. These allegations are unfounded and I am a man of very limited tolerance when it comes to Lameco Eskrima and the legacy of Edgar G. Sulite. You can say what you will about me and I will either address the charges made against me or confirm them which ever be the case. But to falsely attack a dead mans legacy and reputation, especially someone who I have known for many years and that I care for dearly, is above and beyond what I am willing to tolerate.

As long as I live I will not allow anyone to disgrace the name and good reputation of Lameco Eskrima or Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite. After the many years which I have had the good fortune of being associated with this great man and his system the least that I can do is to maintain his good standing in the Pilipino Warrior Art community and defend his reputation and good name.

Honesty and integrety go along way with me, I am not someone that gives my trust to someone easily, it takes many years of association to gain my trust and once violated it is almost impossible to regain that which was lost. Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite was a great teacher, a great warrior, a great friend and a great man! Above all he was a man of great honesty and integrety, he did what was right because it was right regardless of whether he benefitted financially from it or not. He was a firm believer in giving credit where credit was due which is why he often said that Lameco Eskrima was not his alone because it also beloned to the the masters who shared their knowledge with him. Speaking specifically of the 5 major influences and the 6 minor influences. When he presented something in class he would give credit to the master and system from whence it came. If he modified it he would tell you that it was modified and then he would show you the original version for comparison and analysis.

So after always giving credit to his teachers for the knowledge which they bestowed on him, and more amazingly Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite wrote 3 books listing them all by name, inclusive of Helacrio Sulite Jr. as influences on him and the creation of Lameco Eskrima, how can anyone come forward and paint him as a person that does not give credit for his success? I hope that these allegations will cease and both "Lameco Eskrima" and "Arnisudula" can both forge their own ways through history individually allowing each of these two systems to speak volumes based on their own unique merits and each of these two founders of separate systems being judged by their students and Pilipino Warrior Art community in general as to their individual contributions for the good of the community as a whole.

Train well guys,

Regards,
Guro Dave Gould.

[jwinch2]

Well stated sir.

[gagimilo]

Amen.

[jakeshinryu]

In all honesty, I bet if I ever mentioned this topic of Manong Eric he would just laugh and say something like "just let it be". But I get annoyed when people attempt to bend history and facts for their own self interest. Come on Philipp, (if that’s your real name) why not let SUDULA stand on its on two feet instead of resorting to degrading, both the living and the ones who have left us? I do have high regards for LAMECO Eskrima and PG Edgar, just like I have high regard for all arts and their practitioners, who do not need to resort to mud slinging in order to be recognized.

*Jose Caballero's more notable students were his protege Ireneo L. Olavides, Edgar Sulite and his brother Helacrio Sulite, Jr.(wikipedia).*


I apologize if you consider my statements as funny in your part. I'm not trying to degrade someone nor to resort to mud slinging in order to be recognize because i want truth also, Arnis Sulite (Sudula System) is recognize by the Securities of Exchange Commission in the Philippine Government.



Just let it be, that what i received info were just lies.
When Tuhon Leo Gaje Arrived/visited Ozamiz City around 1978/1979, Tuhon's nephew informed Sulite Jr. to meet his uncle and his uncle knows already who is Sulite Jr. as what his uncle heard about Sulite Jr.
Before Tuhon shared his techniques to Pg Sulite Jr, they sparred first and that was as early as 3 a.m. in front of Ozamiz City Hall and when the sun rose already, it so happened that Eric Olavides came to see them. Tuhon and PG Sulite met again of the same venue and same time for several mornings before Tuhon back to US, and several morning also that Eric Olavides watched them in front of the city hall.
Eric Olavides made a deal to PG Sulite to exchange his pekiti to De campo skills, PG Sulite Jr agreed. And they made arrangements when will the share and exchange systems but many times it was postponed because Eric has many appointments in cebu and other places that time. So PG Sulite Jr. asked late GM Ancheta where was the residence of GM Caballero and GM Ancheta introduced him to Caballero in Malaubang Ozamiz City to let PG Sulite Jr undergo training with him. But it was not an easy thing that GM Caballero will teach SuliteJr., many times that PG Sulite Jr came back and forth to GM Caballero to study his system but GM Caballero didn't teach him until PG Sulite Jr got discouraged and didn't back. GM Caballero missed PG Sulite Jr. and he asked someone to let him back and he will teach Sulite Jr. his system. PG Sulite Jr got his trust because of his perseverance. For how many times they practiced that time, PG Sulite Jr. didn't find the training as easy.He spent hard time in his training that time. Until The GM gave him the top secret techniques of the system that even his late son didn't receive it because of abusive attitudes like intervening disputes or quarrel even if it is not his own business or concern.Other students of Caballero that time didn't received the topsecret techniques...



If you find this info as funny, please don't mind because sometimes truths are funny also in our perception but truth sometimes hurts.


Can we say then that PG Sulite Jr is not a protege of De campo? Remember always that not all information in the net 100% true sometimes it's bias and one sided that favors to the author or writer only, like Magellen who discovered Philippines, it was not him who first discovered Philippines, it was him who first published what he discovered because there were many traders from other countries before him discovered our island.

Again, don't consider this as factual if you find this funny!

Long Live! Mabuhay!

jakeshinryu

[Raul]

I think the issue against the fact that Edgar G. Sulite is the founder of Lameco Eskrima is already settled. The fact was never doubted by the people who are concerned and involved with Lameco Eskrima, i.e. students and friends of the PG. That's all that matters. No additional trivial anecdotes and annoying tidbits of history can or will change that.

[Twist]

Arnis Sulite (Sudula System) is recognize by the Securities of Exchange Commission in the Philippine Government.

I'm sorry, but as an attorney working in southeastasia I have to ask - whats it worth? There are much more plausible facts to base a reputation on....



Until The GM gave him the top secret techniques of the system that even his late son didn't receive it because of abusive attitudes like intervening disputes or quarrel even if it is not his own business or concern.Other students of Caballero that time didn't received the topsecret techniques...

Well, I'm not really in a position to talk about DeCampo, but I've met Mang Eric Olavides as well as Mang Caballeros son Mawe and I think that the picture you're painting here - that only Helacrio Sulite Jr. was taught the "secret techniques" - is laughable...

[De Campo JDC-IO]

Jakeshinryu,
I don't want to derail this thread more than it already has so if you would like to continue this discussion privately I am more than happy to oblige you. I await your message...

[jakeshinryu]

I'm sorry if i am inadvertently posting threads that seems laughable to others but history sometimes were just based on author's point of view, just like The discovery of Philippines by Magellan, it was not him who first discovered Philippines because there were already people who discovered our country before his arrival just like the traders from the nearby countries, it was then his opportunity to wrote first and published his discovery.

Just like the information in the net, it is not 100% reliable.

Just like the origin of Arnis-Kali-Eskrima, it was obscure for us the exact date of its origin. No one can testify because no one will attest from the generation of arnis creation,it was just then hersays or speculations how it evolve.

Nobody can judge PG Helacrio "Jun" Sulite, Jr. who he is, is it because he is not popular. PG "Jun" Sulite Jr. is just a low profile man just like others.
Dr. Mark Wiley, the only writer and versatile martial artist who personally made research here in the Philippines wrote that PG "jun" Sulite Jr. was the protege of GM Caballero. Wikipedia states that Jose Caballero's notable students and protege were Irenio Olavides, Edgar Sulite and Helacrio Sulite Jr. We don't know who gave that information to Publish in wiki and how can that the author came to its publication by finality. Is it conflicting to Dr. Mark Wiley's research here in Ozamiz?
Its up to you how you will judge it?

Godbless us all!

Jakeshinryu

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Dr. Mark Wiley, the only writer and versatile martial artist who personally made research here in the Philippines

Sorry, I do try to keep out of "family" disputes but this is just plain wrong.

One other book written by "Martial Artists and Writers" is:

Cebuana Eskrima: Beyond the Myth

It was written by Celestino Machacor (De camp JDC-10) and Ned Nepangue (Balintawak). They traveled / researched extensively for this work.

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/index.html

I'm sure there are others.

Simon.

[jwinch2]

Sorry, I do try to keep out of "family" disputes but this is just plain wrong.

One other book written by "Martial Artists and Writers" is:

Cebuana Eskrima: Beyond the Myth

It was written by Celestino Machacor (De camp JDC-10) and Ned Nepangue (Balintawak). They traveled / researched extensively for this work.

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/index.html

I'm sure there are others.

Simon.

Rey Galang has one as well LINK (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0972767916/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0972767924&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1PQCB0GSW2P11P2FXQVD). And, as a matter of fact, Wiley really has two.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Yep. Loads by Martial Artists. When they write books don't they then become "Martial Artists and Writers"....

[De Campo JDC-IO]

*Jose Caballero's more notable students were his protege Ireneo L. Olavides, Edgar Sulite and his brother Helacrio Sulite, Jr.(wikipedia).*
I never said the Helacrio Sulite Jr. was not a student of Noy Otek. My issue is that you claimed that Helacrio Sulite Jr was Noy Otek’s protégé. You seem to want to paint the picture that Ireneo Olavides was not when it is pretty well known that he was GM Caballero’s most trusted student.



I apologize if you consider my statements as funny in your part. I'm not trying to degrade someone nor to resort to mud slinging in order to be recognize because i want truth also, Arnis Sulite (Sudula System) is recognize by the Securities of Exchange Commission in the Philippine Government.
I actually don’t find your statement funny at all. As a matter of fact I find them insulting and that is why I continue to post. When I said that Manong Eric would just laugh it is because I am sure he would think this whole thing was ridiculous. Being recognized by the SEC doesn't necessarily mean that the style is worthy of being recognized as an effective art. That should be judged by people who have experienced it. If you say it is effective then who am I to say it is not. That is not the issue I have with your post.


Just let it be, that what i received info were just lies.
When Tuhon Leo Gaje Arrived/visited Ozamiz City around 1978/1979, Tuhon's nephew informed Sulite Jr. to meet his uncle and his uncle knows already who is Sulite Jr. as what his uncle heard about Sulite Jr.
Before Tuhon shared his techniques to Pg Sulite Jr, they sparred first and that was as early as 3 a.m. in front of Ozamiz City Hall and when the sun rose already, it so happened that Eric Olavides came to see them. Tuhon and PG Sulite met again of the same venue and same time for several mornings before Tuhon back to US, and several morning also that Eric Olavides watched them in front of the city hall.
Eric Olavides made a deal to PG Sulite to exchange his pekiti to De campo skills, PG Sulite Jr agreed. And they made arrangements when will the share and exchange systems but many times it was postponed because Eric has many appointments in cebu and other places that time. So PG Sulite Jr. asked late GM Ancheta where was the residence of GM Caballero and GM Ancheta introduced him to Caballero in Malaubang Ozamiz City to let PG Sulite Jr undergo training with him. But it was not an easy thing that GM Caballero will teach SuliteJr., many times that PG Sulite Jr came back and forth to GM Caballero to study his system but GM Caballero didn't teach him until PG Sulite Jr got discouraged and didn't back. GM Caballero missed PG Sulite Jr. and he asked someone to let him back and he will teach Sulite Jr. his system. PG Sulite Jr got his trust because of his perseverance. For how many times they practiced that time, PG Sulite Jr. didn't find the training as easy.He spent hard time in his training that time. Until The GM gave him the top secret techniques of the system that even his late son didn't receive it because of abusive attitudes like intervening disputes or quarrel even if it is not his own business or concern.Other students of Caballero that time didn't received the topsecret techniques...
I am a little confused about your post above. When did Helacrio Sulite Jr train in Pekiti? If he met Tuhon in 1978/79 like you stated, then what skills would he have in Pekiti that Manong Eric would want to exchange for De Campo? Which son of Noy Otek are you referring to that was not taught the secret techniques? I will agree however, that not all of GM Caballero’s students were taught everything.

If you find this info as funny, please don't mind because sometimes truths are funny also in our perception but truth sometimes hurts.

Can we say then that PG Sulite Jr is not a protege of De campo? Remember always that not all information in the net 100% true sometimes it's bias and one sided that favors to the author or writer only, like Magellen who discovered Philippines, it was not him who first discovered Philippines, it was him who first published what he discovered because there were many traders from other countries before him discovered our island.

Again, don't consider this as factual if you find this funny!

Long Live! Mabuhay!

jakeshinryu

[Guro Dave Gould]

Hi Guys,

Having trained in De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal under Edgar Sulite I also have a vested interest in this system and the reputation of Manong Caballero. Let us not forget that the core of Lameco Eskrima and the confidense system of Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite concerning Impact Weapons, is De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, concerning edged weapons it is Kali Illustrisimo, but I digress.

It has always been clear from anyone who trained with Manong Caballero that Eric Olavides is the chosen protégé by Manong Caballero long before he passed away in 1987. It was accepted then and regardless of what Mark Wiley may have written it is accepted now. I have to believe that Manong Caballero should have known in his own mind who his chosen protégé and successor to his system was when he revealed this information in his last days more so than Mark Wiley, who was not present and only came on the scene many years later as a writer.

If you read wikipedia carefully in this regard it states that Ireneo L. Olavides is the protégé of Manong Caballero and that Edgar G. Sulite and Helacrio Sulite Jr. are among notable students, not that all three are protégés of Manong Caballero as I believe you to be reading what is written.

No one has ever had reason to doubt anything about Helacrio Sulite Jr. until you started posting here. Quite honestly the way that you are painting him here with your writing style is doing more damage to his reputation than good. In reading what you have written you would have us believe that no one elses influence played any degree in the creation of Lameco Eskrima other than Helacrio Sulite Jr.? that Helacrio Sulite Jr. since day one of their meeting was equal to Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje jr. of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia? That Helacrio Sulite Jr. was so skilled in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, never having trained in the system but rather only experiencing one sparring session with Tuhon Gaje, so much so that a complete stranger, Eric Olavides who supposedly witnessed only one sparring session, was williing to compromise the trust and confidense that he had gained from numerous years of training under Manong Caballero to trade his guarded knowledge of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal to Helacrio Sulite Jr. for the smallest amount of knowledge of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, moreso than choosing to receive a vast amount of knowledge directly from the Grand Master of the system himself (Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr.)? Then you would have us believe that Helacrio Sulite Jr. was the protégé of Jose D. Caballero and should have been the wrightful heir to his system over Eric Olavides who is the long time recognized protégé and successor of Manong Caballero, chosen by Manong Caballero himself?

How can you read what has been written here and not understand why we would hesitate to believe you? As I stated before Helacrio Sulite Jr. can not have knowledge that you are writing such things about him and damaging his reputation to the degree that you are here on this public forum. He needs to come here and write on this forum to defend these allegations and make "HIS" intentions known. I can assure you that if you keep making these allegations you will succeed in only inflicting heavy irreparable damage on the reputation of the one that you claim to serve.

Honestly how do we know that you represent Helacrio Sulite Jr.? You have not given your name, therefore no-one knows who you are, for all we know you could be someone from another system with an agenda to do harm to the reputations of Helacrio Sulite Jr., Edgar G. Sulite, Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. and Manong Caballero for personal gain. As of now only if Helacrio Sulite Jr. comes forward and puts these allegations to us directly will I believe that this is coming directly from him. Not that these mistruths will be accepted as being true but at least we will know without a doubt that these fantastic allegations are being leveled against us directly from the source and not from someone with possible alterior motives.

In the end when the dust settles:

Lameco Eskrima will still go down in history as being founded by Edgar G. Sulite on September 25, 1981.

The recognized protégé of Manong Caballero and successor of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal will continue to be Eric Olavides.

Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr. will still lay claim to being the Supreme Grand Master of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia being unequalled in his knowledge and abilities concerning said system.

What will become of "Arnisudula" and the reputation of its founder Helacrio Sulite Jr.? Will he redeem himself and his reputation allowing his knowledge and creation ("Arnisudula") to go forward and speak for its own merits and achievements? Or will his reputation be bogged down and crippled by years of doubt and criticism born from the fantastic mistruths being spouted on this public forum? Only time will tell, but the question that you need to ask your self is does the end result justify the means by which it is met?

I sincerely apologize to everyone for having to endure another round of this nonsense.

Regards,
Guro Dave Gould.

[De Campo JDC-IO]

I could not have said it better myself. Thank you Guro Dave for once again giving us thought provoking words of wisdom. Be well!

[jakeshinryu]

[quote=De Campo JDC-IO;47157]
***Being recognized by the SEC doesn't necessarily mean that the style is worthy of being recognized as an effective art. That should be judged by people who have experienced it. ***

You mean that arnis sulite sudula is not an effective art? Do you want to try our system regarding its effectivity? PG Helacrio Sulite Jr. did not become an international champion for nothing. Your knowledge of your system is just only a pinch to him!


***I am a little confused about your post above. When did Helacrio Sulite Jr train in Pekiti? If he met Tuhon in 1978/79 like you stated, then what skills would he have in Pekiti that Manong Eric would want to exchange for De Campo? ***

Manong Eric wants to exchange his de campo techniques system to pekiti especially in knife fighting techniques. Tuhon Gahe and PG Sulite Jr had their training more than a month in Ozamiz City in knife fighting(daily). I would like to emphasize that PG has knowledge already in knife techniques prior to Tuhon's arrival in Ozamiz. Tuhon commented PG's excellent techniques in knife fight. Pekiti knife techniques were just only an additional to PG's skill.
Manong Eric was called by PG Sulite Jr to join them as they have their training in pekiti but manong eric just kept on observing for several mornings and days.

[jakeshinryu]

[quote=Guro Dave Gould;47160]Hi Guys,


***It has always been clear from anyone who trained with Manong Caballero that Eric Olavides is the chosen protégé by Manong Caballero long before he passed away in 1987. It was accepted then and regardless of what Mark Wiley may have written it is accepted now. I have to believe that Manong Caballero should have known in his own mind who his chosen protégé and successor to his system was when he revealed this information in his last days more so than Mark Wiley, who was not present and only came on the scene many years later as a writer.***

***If you read wikipedia carefully in this regard it states that Ireneo L. Olavides is the protégé of Manong Caballero and that Edgar G. Sulite and Helacrio Sulite Jr. are among notable students, not that all three are protégés of Manong Caballero as I believe you to be reading what is written. ***

I respect your opinion for that.

***No one has ever had reason to doubt anything about Helacrio Sulite Jr. until you started posting here. Quite honestly the way that you are painting him here with your writing style is doing more damage to his reputation than good.***

NO i'm not, i just want to say something about PG Sulite Jr who he is, he is a low profile man. Pueblos brothers know him well who taught them also as Edgar continued teaching them while they went to Manila together.

***That Helacrio Sulite Jr. was so skilled in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, never having trained in the system but rather only experiencing one sparring session with Tuhon Gaje, so much so that a complete stranger, Eric Olavides who supposedly witnessed only one sparring session, was williing to compromise the trust and confidense that he had gained from numerous years of training under Manong Caballero to trade his guarded knowledge of De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal to Helacrio Sulite Jr. for the smallest amount of knowledge of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia, moreso than choosing to receive a vast amount of knowledge directly from the Grand Master of the system himself (Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje Jr.)? ***

The training in pekiti knife techniques lasted more than a month before Tuhon left Ozamiz and i did not ever mention that PG Sulite Jr. has equalled his knowledge in Tuhon's system. Several mornings and days that manong eric observed them infront of OZAMIZ city hall.

***Then you would have us believe that Helacrio Sulite Jr. was the protégé of Jose D. Caballero and should have been the wrightful heir to his system over Eric Olavides who is the long time recognized protégé and successor of Manong Caballero, chosen by Manong Caballero himself?***

Dr. Mark Wiley stated it, im just borrowing/quote his statement.
This all started when you said that PG Sulite Jr. did not undergone training in 4 major systems of Lameco and minor systems, I say to you, PG Sulite Jr crosstrained in more or less than 50 Masters of different asian martial arts discipline. He didn't became an international champion for nothing.

Good Luck,

Sensei/Guro jakeshinryu

[Guro Dave Gould]

Jakeshinryu,

Jason from JDC De Campo-IO, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting some years ago, responded to you the following:

*** "Being recognized by the SEC doesn't necessarily mean that the style is worthy of being recognized as an effective art. That should be judged by people who have experienced it." ***

Your response to him in your previous post was the following:

*** "You mean that arnis sulite sudula is not an effective art? Do you want to try our system regarding its effectivity? PG Helacrio Sulite Jr. did not become an international champion for nothing. Your knowledge of your system is just only a pinch to him!" ***

Jason has never been anything but respectful in any of his posts on this forum, to include his response to you. He was simply making a statement that even though "Arnisudula" may be recognized by the SEC that in and of itself does not mean that they are an expert in said system. It only means that they "recognize" the existance of the system, as I am sure that they recognize numerous more systems and styles of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima in the Philippines. Which has no bearing on the superiority or inferiority of one system over the other. They simply recognize that "Arnisudula" exists, not that they have given it the endorsement of the SEC and have a vested interest in how effective that it may or may not be or to whom it is propagated.

The teachers, students and followers of a system are the ones to best judge the effect of said system, as no one can attest to the effectability of a combat system until they have gained first hand knowledge of it through thousands of hours of experiencing it with the shedding of much blood, sweat and tears in developing its core principles. Something that the SEC could not possibly possess of any system never having trained in it personally and only judging it from the outside looking in.

As a Certified Trainer and US Representative of JDC De Campo-IO under Mang Eric Olavides, Jason was just trying to get clarification regarding the statements that you made in reference to him (Eric Olavides). He has every right to defend the honor and reputation of his Instructor as do we all. I can not speak for Jason as he is his own man but from my perspective he was not "challenging" the effect of "Arnisudula" or was he attacking the reputation of Helacrio Sulite Jr. He was just simply trying to get you to reveal some hard varifiable facts which may substantiate your allegations against Mang Eric Olavides as being the Protege of Jose D. Caballero and successor to De Campo Uno-Dos-Tres Orehenal, no more and no less.

So please do not insult this forum or its readers. Remember that it was you that wrote first making these allegations against our systems, we were just defending the reputations and honor of our Instructors whom you have attempted to cast doubt upon by your statements. Thus far we have only asked for clarification from you and posed several lines of questions to you regarding that clarification process.

Regards,
Guro Dave Gould.

[gagimilo]

Here's what happens whan somebody appears and writes with an agenda, instead of aiming at an honest conversation. The things get glanced over (or even completely missed), which than leads to people loosing their valuable training time to stand for something that really should not have been disputed in the first place...

@jakshinryu

You said that PG Helacrio Jr. is a low profile man...well, I guess he is not anymore! Still, it is doubtful if in this particular situation his coming into spotlight was a good thing. Would it not have been better to have prepared an actual presentation on the Internet (video clips, properly written articles), in order for those potentially interested to see for themselves the actual movements and utilitarian value of Arnisudula, instead of arguing the historical background and lineage?

[De Campo JDC-IO]

You mean that arnis sulite sudula is not an effective art?

I don’t seem to remember saying that Arnis Sulite Sudula was not an effective art. If that is how you interpret my words then I am truly sorry.



Do you want to try our system regarding its effectivity?

Come on, are you serious? There is no need to make challenges over the internet.



PG Helacrio Sulite Jr. did not become an international champion for nothing. Your knowledge of your system is just only a pinch to him!

So now you are saying that PG Sulite Jr has knowledge in De Campo JDC-IO? I have no reservation in saying that PG Sulite Jr has much more knowledge in other styles of Arnis, Eskrima and Kali then me but I doubt he has even heard of De Campo JDC-IO much less have knowledge in it. But hey, if you say so then I have to believe you, right?

You still have not answered my questions regarding the time PG Sulite Jr spent training with GM Caballero. Is that really so much to ask?

So for the third time, what year did PG Sulite Jr train with Grand Tuhon Gaje for more than a month?

I sincerely apologize to the members of the forum for dragging this topic on.

[Carol]

Agreed, there is no need for challenges over the internet, and on this site, issuing a challenge is a bannable offense.

This applies to posts in the public forum, and it also applies to private messages sent through this forum and e-mails sent through this forum.

- Carol
- FMATalk Admin

[jakeshinryu]

regarding your question of time reference of PG Helacrio Jr. training under the tutelage of GM Caballero(De Campo 1-2-3 Orihinal),that was around 1978 t0 1980. He spent almost two years of rigid training under GM Caballero after his almost 2 months training in knife fighting under Tuhon Gaje but before Tuhon Gaje left Ozamiz,he made a few video clips from GM Caballero's actual training in his house of Malaubang Ozamiz City.
Pertaining to your quote that i mentioned of previous thread regarding my question,"Do you to try our system regarding its effectiveness?"
I am not challenging you to have a duel over the internet because it is unethical but my point is you have to study it if you want so that you can say if it is effective or not.
I sincerely apologize if i made some threads that are annoying or shall we say disgusting into your side. Don't worry i am a good friend as your brother in fma.
Maybe this is my last thread for you. Keep up the good work of protecting your system. I really appreciate it.
Hope to meet you someday my friend.
For those guys asking for our website, it is soon be open to the public.

Regards,
jakeshinryu-
d small guy

[De Campo JDC-IO]

Jakeshinryu,

Thank you for clearing up the dates for me. I now have a clearer picture of your teacher's training in De Campo 1-2-3.

I have no doubt that Arnisudula is an effective art and wish you the best in training. I am looking forward to some videos you can share. Since I live on the other side of the globe, this might be the only way I can "experience" it. Take care

[still lurking]

Personally I do not know Helacrio Sulite Jr. but thought well of him for years solely on what I heard fron Edgar G. Sulite concerning him, now I have to be honest in stating publically that if he is willing to discredit his own brother and attempt to take credit for what Edgar G. Sulite has accomplished Helacrio Sulite Jr. is not the man that I thought that he was. Moreso He does not sound like the man that I would want to be associated with. I think that it is shameful what he is trying to do and with such statements why does he not come forward him self and make these claims using his own name? Why send some one who never met Edgar G. Sulite from "Batch 5" (2005) of "Arnisudula" who is living in the shadow of his moniker instead of stating to us all his true identity? Who are you? If you are trying to convince us all of something that none of us believe the least that you can do is come out of the shadows with your identity.


Guro Dave Gould.

I'm sure Edgar wouldn't want you to think I'll of his brother. Until Jun Sulite Jr. posts himself, I'd just rather shoot the messenger for now.

[Raul]

I'm sure Edgar wouldn't want you to think I'll of his brother. Until Jun Sulite Jr. posts himself, I'd just rather shoot the messenger for now.I second that.