Anyone interested in talking Karambits?

[Cruentus]

So...do you like or dislike them?

Why?

They certianly have both strengths and weaknesses....

I am curious what others have observed and experienced, and what the opinions are of them...

Paul

[arnisador]

I have a folding one. I enjoy playing with it. I love how it feels--it is angled to cut in line with a very natural hooking or uppercut arm motion. In terms of body movement, I prefer it to a standard knife. Also, for better or worse, if it has a finger hole it has retainability (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=351).

On the other hand, a knife has a reach advantage, and I feel it's harder to get around it if an opponent is trying to grab my knife hand. Also, a knife can stab, which is more debilitating than a slash. I've heard it said the karambit is a less lethal weapon because while it makes ugly slashing wounds, they are only slashes and so less likely to kill than a straight knife. Since a knife can do both, it has more options.

So, I prefer to work with the karambit from a comfort point of view, but emphasize the knife over it because it's more practical.

See also this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=347&page=2) on its history.

[Alakd'an]

We have just recently started training with kerambits, we make our own training blades including kerambits. You are correct in that thrusting is non-existant when it comes to Kerambits. But what we like about them is the trapping and locking applications. This fits well with our Modern Arnis Training. We can use them in place of the Dulo and use the same moves. Using the trapping techniques from Modern Arnis adds a different dimension than just cutting or slashing. It gives us more to "play" with. Just my 2 cents. Salamat! www.alakdanarnisador.com (http://www.alakdanarnisador.com)

[arnisador]

I bought a cheap knife at the county fair yesterday that is shaped kind of like a kukri, which to me resembles a big kerambit in some ways.

It was made in China but marketed as an official U.S. Army Rangers' combat knife. I wasn't fooled, but I liked it anyways.

[Balintawak]

So...do you like or dislike them?

Why?

They certianly have both strengths and weaknesses....

I am curious what others have observed and experienced, and what the opinions are of them...

Paul


Personally, I do not like the blade.

** WHAT YOU DO NOT LIKE THE BLADE? **

Yes, I have a problem with it. Even the larger trainers, I have problems with the finger hole being small and the edge of the blade starting in the palm of my hand.

But that is a personal issue. ;)

[greg808]

I think it's a cool weapon. I've recently purchased a folding one although its a one sided edge, I'm kinda leary about having to use it since I've had a folding knife aleady close on my index finger. Luckly they sewed it back on. Other then that I think a fixed blade karambit is an excellent weapon you can strike and counter at the same time. I still would use one if I had to fight.

[arnisador]

Glad your finger is OK! I have a folding kerambit and I like it. But, of course I would prefer a fixed blade whenever possible.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm not a huge fan. The kerambit is effective at what it does but I would rather have a straight blade any day.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[arnisador]

I agree. It's more fun than practical. The best argument I've heard in its favor is th eone Imention ed above--that it may be less lethal than a straight blade as it's principally a slashing weapon. Still, I do like the "feel" of the motions one makes when using it.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Another big point about it is that it really has no functional value in our society other than being used in a violent situation. That being said, if you had to use it in a violent situation I can imagine that the police, prosecutor or judge would not view it in a possible light.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[V-Rex]

I didn't appreciate the effectiveness of a Kerambit until I'd seen a member of the Sayoc organization use one in a demonstration. If you are ever fortunate enough to see one of the high-end Sayoc guys use one, check it out. It's a fantastic weapon when used to its potential, and suddenly some Silat movements seem to make more sense when done armed with one.
I have one by Kris Cutlery, one of the Cold Steel models, and 2 inexpensive folders.

[arnisador]

suddenly some Silat movements seem to make more sense when done armed with one.

I've noticed this--like where you drop and then grab the leg at the knee to initiate a take-down, you can use the kerambit to hook instead. We practiced that with a Silat-trained FMA instructor, and it clearly works better that way...and the kerambit is better than a knife for this technique.

Yet, I'd rather stand up and use a fixed blade, with its reach advantage! You have to get in closer with the kerambit, unless you spin it via the finger-hole, which I prefer not to do for fear of losing control of it.

[V-Rex]

I've noticed this--like where you drop and then grab the leg at the knee to initiate a take-down, you can use the kerambit to hook instead. We practiced that with a Silat-trained FMA instructor, and it clearly works better that way...and the kerambit is better than a knife for this technique.


One of our jurus contains "leapord fist", three rotations inside (pulling into the body, which I understood) and three rotating outside (as if hitting with the pinky finger, which I had me confused). When done with a kerambit, the move rotates the opponent around the kerambit while the blade spins in the opposite direction... as if to peel an apple as it spins. Quite nice.

[arnisador]

One of our jurus contains "leapord fist", three rotations inside (pulling into the body, which I understood) and three rotating outside (as if hitting with the pinky finger, which I had me confused). When done with a kerambit, the move rotates the opponent around the kerambit while the blade spins in the opposite direction... as if to peel an apple as it spins.

Ah, it makes sense! In arnis we often say that if you don't understand what an empty hand is doing, put a knife in it. Perhaps in Silat, one must put a kerambit in it!

[James]

Ah, it makes sense! In arnis we often say that if you don't understand what an empty hand is doing, put a knife in it. Perhaps in Silat, one must put a kerambit in it!
This is certainly true for some Mande Muda forms as well. Although they could be done empty handed, when one puts a kerambit in hand, you certainly see the application come to light.

[Cruentus]

Given the nature of how fights happen on the street/field as compared to dueling situtations, the devestation that a kerambit can cause can't be ignored.

This was proven in a famous case in India that I am aware of where a government official was assasinated with a Kerambit at an event in public view. The killers concern was getting the job done rather then getting caught or killed in the process. Despite many security officials and bystanders, the mark was killed. The weapon of choice was a Kerambit because of it's ease of concealment, it's quickness of draw, and it's difficulty to be disarmed once secured in the hand. If I can find a reference to this story, I'll provide it.

For an in-close, ruff and tumble situation (as most fights are), kerambits can be easily deployed and a great compliment to the empty hand.

As to my dislikes...

I am not in favor of a lot of what is taught out there for use of the weapon (outside of what we teach, anyway). I believe that emphasis should be on basic boxing skills and such with the weapon as a compliment to the empty hands rather then emphasis on elaborate trapping, flowery hand motions, and fancy stuff (like twirling the weapon around your fingers, for example).

I am not in favor of the folding kerambits because a major benefit of the weapon is ease of deployment; this is reduced considerably with a folding weapon. The Emerson Kerambits are probably the best for folding because of the wave feature and the ergonomics; but even still I would prefer a fixed anyday.

It also is not completely practical by legal standards; it isn't an impossible problem to overcome, but you better have your ducks in a row when it comes to proving reasonableness if you use one of these things. This can be extremely difficult to do.

I don't consider the fact that it isn't a good deuling weapon (unlike my bowie, for example) as a negative because it isn't really meant for that.

Well, that's my basic take on the weapon.

:)

[kabaroan]

Like anything else, a Kerambit is a tool that requires proper training in its use. Some knife techniques will transfer over but others are unique to the knife due to its design. I believe Steve Tarani is big on the kerambit.

I have one that I bought on a whim but it really needs a kydex sheath to make it something for everyday carry.

[Cthulhu]

My kerambit experience comes from what Tuhon Ray Dionaldo developed for his FCS Kali group and, by extension, Sayoc Kali. I feel confident enough with it to use it as a weapon, but that is the thing: it can only be used as a weapon. It is almost impossible to justify carrying a kerambit for any utility purpose.

Another distinct disadvantage is one that arnisador mentioned: it really cuts down the range, and you have to be very aware of that if training and using the weapon.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Kelly Worden's travel wrench is meant to be a (dull) kerambit with other applications.

[Silence_sucks]

I've noticed this--like where you drop and then grab the leg at the knee to initiate a take-down, you can use the kerambit to hook instead. We practiced that with a Silat-trained FMA instructor, and it clearly works better that way...and the kerambit is better than a knife for this technique.

Yet, I'd rather stand up and use a fixed blade, with its reach advantage! You have to get in closer with the kerambit, unless you spin it via the finger-hole, which I prefer not to do for fear of losing control of it.

Guro inosanto demonstrated this at his last seminar in sydney, when describing that certain style of silat, (panagmut?) the 'tiger' ground fighting style thats ment to mimic the tiger. Would NOT want to be on the reciving end of all those hook cuts to the groin and femoral artery!

[408kali]

My 2 pesos...

My take on the Karambit is that because of it's design it's a quick draw, easily concealed bladed weapon that can open an offender up in a heartbeat, and bleed them out, especially when the timing is right, i.e. if the blade is deployed unexpectedly. The stomach, and the main arteries (inner thighs, underarms, neck, and groin) are easily sliced/ripped/torn open. If properly executed, your adversary will be dead in less than five minutes.

On the contrary, in the US we generally wear thicker clothing and the inner thigh, groin, or armpits seem less accessible with the Kerambit. In this case the Balisong (Butterfly knife) or a fixed/folder is my preferred blade.

[tanod]

guro louie lindo taught us a kerambit form from mande muda, i like it.
also thinking of getting the travel wrench.

[SUPERMAN .45]

I got 1 Karambit a Smith & Wesson folding karambit, I Iike the blade.

[stickfighter.dk]

Funny how most people tend to focus on only being able to slash with a Karambit. I tend to use it with jabs (and straight punches), hooks, trapping, locks aso. I find it a great tool for in-close work. That said, I would never carry a Karambit as my sole blade as it is IMO a close quarters tool.

[arnisador]

Good point! You can certainly 'prick' someone with it in more ways than one. There are a number of ways to use it in conjunction with locks/traps/throws.

[Baddmojo]

If you really want to see Kerambit and alternative ways to use it.


2O6MchAeAkc

[arnisador]

I like that clip!

[stickfighter.dk]

If I'm not mistaken, that's Ray Dinaldo of Sayoc Kali doing some sweet moves. Anyone seen the the Sayoc Karambit DVD? IMHO it got some interesting material :coolyello

[Baddmojo]

If I'm not mistaken, that's Ray Dinaldo of Sayoc Kali doing some sweet moves. Anyone seen the the Sayoc Karambit DVD? IMHO it got some interesting material :coolyello

Yeah, it's Tuhon Ray. Get the Karambit DVD it's worth your while. Sweet material. I admit I'm a bit biased, but I swear it's generations ahead of everything "I've" seen so far.

Anthony

[stickfighter.dk]

Anyone got DVD recommendations besides the Sayoc DVD (got it)? I'm trying to pick up a little inspiration :)

[Doc_Jude]

My 2 pesos...

My take on the Karambit is that because of it's design it's a quick draw, easily concealed bladed weapon that can open an offender up in a heartbeat, and bleed them out, especially when the timing is right, i.e. if the blade is deployed unexpectedly. The stomach, and the main arteries (inner thighs, underarms, neck, and groin) are easily sliced/ripped/torn open. If properly executed, your adversary will be dead in less than five minutes.

On the contrary, in the US we generally wear thicker clothing and the inner thigh, groin, or armpits seem less accessible with the Kerambit. In this case the Balisong (Butterfly knife) or a fixed/folder is my preferred blade.

I agree with what you have to say about the Kerambit use...


But why in the world would you carry a Balisong as an EDC? Since they're seriously illegal in CA, of course?


As for Kerambits, I'm in the market for a Mineral Mountain Lil' Prick...
http://www.mineralmountain.com/images/lilprick2.jpg

They're about $180, but since you can get the ring expanded to 1and1/8", I'd definitely do that.

[arnisador]

What aspect of the kerambit makes it illegal in CA?

[Carol]

Doc Jude didn't say the Kerambit was illegal in CA...he said the Balisong knife is illegal in CA.

[stickfighter.dk]

I had not seen any Mineral Mountain knives previously. Thanks for the intro Doc, those karambits are deffinetely going on my "must have" list :bow:

[arnisador]

Doc Jude didn't say the Kerambit was illegal in CA...he said the Balisong knife is illegal in CA.

Ah, my mistake! I was looking at the picture as I read the sentence.

[neo headhunter]

I have seen both of Tuhon Ray's DVD one from Sayoc and another from our school FCS, by far the FCS Kerambit DVD have a ton more material on it, since Tuhon Ray primarily developed all his materials anyway. I'm sure you've heard "it's not how big it is it's how you use IT =), well the Kerambit is that IMHO. He discusses the 3 grips, triangles of attack, templates or targets.

[Riddick29]

I own both the DVD's ; I have a small preference for the Sayoc one, the explainations are better (I'm not a fluent english speaker) ; otherwise, as Tuhon Dionaldo gaves both curriculum ; it's globaly the same with some difference (more controls in the Sayoc, a bit of Silat too ; two complete Vital Template) ; and more uses/applications in the FCS one.
There is Karambit too in at least two of the Sayoc Sama Sama DVD's ; and the components are including a new Template and some of the parts from the FCS Karambit DVD.

[KaliGman]

I train with karambits quite a bit. Albo Kali Silat teaches karambit as well as the uses of more conventional blades. I have several karambits, both live blades and trainers, folders and fixed blades. For anyone interested, I posted a few karambit videos covering some basic techniques in Albo Kali Silat regarding the use of the karambit. The videos are posted on the video section of this forum and you can follow the thread below to get there if you so desire:

http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?p=24130#post24130

[Brock]

Yeah I'm interested! I've never seen a talking karambit before! :laugh:

Okay, so that joke was only funny to me....

[BING]

I am carrying Emerson Combat Karambit as an EDC. I love this one, it can open very fast with Wave.
I got many Karambit DVDs such as
1. Steve Tarani Karambit 3 DVDs set.
2. Sayoc Karambit
3. Tuhon Ray Karambit Principles
4. Ernie Emerson Karambit DVDs
5. Kelly Worden: Karambit as an Impact Weapon
6. Kuntao Silat Karambit
7. Kenpo Karambit
8. Silat Mubai Karambit
I found out that anyone who has back ground on martial arts such as Kempo, Silat, FMA the Karambit is more easy for them to use it and make it functional more than show off.
Thanks,

[Hickory]

I bought a Smith & Wesson folder, just to try it out before I go spending $$$. I've been carrying it as an EDC item for about six months now, and have actually grown quite used to the blade, even as a utility tool. I wouldn't work in the yard with a knife that I've spent a couple of hundred bones on, but with a $25 S&W, I figured why not see what it could do. I haven't been disappointed.

About a month ago, I picked up a Ka-bar TDI Law Enforcement Knife. With the sharp-angled drop point, it wields much like a K-bit; of course you don't have the finger loop to help with retention, so that's a bit of a drawback. At any rate, I like the design.

I now carry both - none of my fixed blades are of "legal" length, and wouldn't be practical to carry in my work environment - one in the pocket and one in the ruck. I'm sold.

[MachoDC]

I just ordered a real low price "plastic" training karambit... (http://www.botachtactical.com/costfgxka.html) haven't received it yet. Should be fun to play with! :sword2:

[Brian R. VanCise]

I just ordered a real low price "plastic" training karambit... (http://www.botachtactical.com/costfgxka.html) haven't received it yet. Should be fun to play with! :sword2:

Just an FYI that those are not really training Kerambits as they are sharp even though made out of plastic. They are more meant to be a throw away kerambit than a training one.

[MachoDC]

Just an FYI that those are not really training Kerambits as they are sharp even though made out of plastic. They are more meant to be a throw away kerambit than a training one.

Thank you for that clarification. I had a feeling it was sharp (based on the description), and an actual weapon.

"Officer, it's just a plastic toy!" lol :whip:

[MachoDC]

Karambit just came UPS... yes it is sharp! Very nice piece though.... happy with the looks and feel of it!

[arnisador]

Sounds good! It'd be nice to see a review by someone who tested one for endurance but that'd no doubt destroy it in the process.

[MachoDC]

For $10-$12.... it'd be worth it.... looks pretty durable... maybe I need to get me a side of beef and go to town with it!! :)

[arnisador]

Consider it "taking one for the team" if you do ruin it in the process! Your dog will appreciate the leftovers from your testing. :D

[MachoDC]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/roflmfao.jpg

[Brian R. VanCise]

Arnisador and MachoDC I have about a dozen of these and they are good for the price and if you consider it a throw away if damaged. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif It is an interesting plastic design and sharp. (very interesting)

[MachoDC]

Played with it tonight for a couple hours......... snipped off the point & dulled out the cutting surface.... turned into a nice trainer after all! :)