Pocket Sticks.

[arnisador]

On MartialTalk there is a [thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33222) on pocket stick usage. It is being disparaged by some and praised by others. Personally, I wouldn't be likely to carry one for its own sake. I've carried kubotans before and find them too bulky compared to their value. While a pocket stick increases the effect of a strike, it also limits the ability to grasp with that hand. It's a net benefit to have the stick, I believe, but not a sufficiently big benefit to justify carrying one. If I'm going to bother carrying something, I'd rather have at least a blade, unless it was restricted (work rules, etc.).

On the other hand, I do like to know how to utilize a small flashlight or unopened folder (if there wasn't time enough to open it), etc., just in case. So, I see value in playing with the dulo-dulo on occasion. I prefer striking than the locks, but I do know that one can get some very painful locks with them. Where they really shine is destructions!

Some people see the fact that you can't grab as well with a stick in your hand as a big disadvantage. I think if I carried one regularly then I'd want a lanyard or other way of securing it; but even still, while I see the point, it's not a particularly important one to my mind. I can always drop it if it's doing more harm than good! But, I think I can grab well enough with the top two fingers and retain with the lower two, and as it'd like be in my striking, not grabbing, hand, I probably would not be grabbing with it. A grab could be changed to a painful punyo press with the stick instead.

As to pens, I see them more as daggers than sticks, so I think of that as an application of knifework.

[Ron B]

I carry 2 tools with me a small maglite and a spyderco atr folding knife.I have been doing some training with the flashlight.one thing to remember if you use a blade you also have to take into account the legal consequences even though you may be justified in using a blade police and judges do not like people using them and you might be charged with using a blade even though you are in the right.you might be less likely to be charged if you use the flashlight.I would use mine to augment my strikes using it like you would like you would use brass knuckles instead you would be using a hammer fist instead of punches.with my other hand I would be hitting as well.the same basically if I would to use a pen or a small knife held in the reverse grip.

[JohnJ]

The pocket stick, dulo-dulo, yawara/kubotan is a viable tool for both self-defense and as a training aid to knife concepts. As an SD tool, it definately adds to your "punch" so to speak. Whether straight on, cycling hammerfistis like a piston or simply hooking with the top to the temple. As mentioned, it is all a matter of how you are applying it and where that adds to the effectiveness of a basic strike. As far as aiding in locking and controlling, I would be more apt to say that these techniques are follow ups after you tuned the opponent good. Compressing nerves is always a plus too.

I don't think it disrupts the ability to grab any less than "cranking & shanking" someone with a knife is. Simply grab a hold of the opponent or his clothing and bat away with pure intent. I use a spike tip kubotan, added a ring or two with more keys. Sure, a lil bulky but it provides some versatility making it a somewhat flexible tool.

Regarding its use for knife training, that is a given since similar principles, manipulation and/or handling apply. It is a discrete way to introduce the knife to newbies.

[ryangruhn]

With the material I teach we use the palm stick as a training tool for other daily objects. The most common replacement is the unopened knife.

Gruhn

[lhommedieu]

The mini-mag is a good candidate and if you can ramp up the light with krypton bulb and put a push switch on the butt end you have a pretty good self-defense tool.

One thing to tell beginners though is that some strikes can be potentially lethal. A strike to the ribs or collar bone is going to do less damage than one to the temple or throat.

Best,

Steve Lamde

[arnisador]

With the material I teach we use the palm stick as a training tool for other daily objects.

I like this approach. The point is not to train the specific weapon but rather to train movements that will be useful for a range of (standard and improvised) weapons. For me too, the unopened folder comes first to mind.

[ryangruhn]

I'll be flying this weekend and always have my mini-mag as a light assistant (overnight flights). I think it is one of the most trusted impact weapons in my tool box.

Gruhn

[kabaroan]

Several years ago, I had taken a Kubotan Class from my instructor, Ed Bansuelo. Many of the applications of the Kubotan are easily transferred to the pocket stick or a closed knife like my Benchmade AFCK. Some knives, however, because of their profile when closed make it more difficult to transfer the techniques (not impossible, just difficult) such as the Spyderco Endura.

Come to think of it, I need a refresher on my Kubotan techniques.

[lhommedieu]

The Benchmade AFCK makes a great pocket stick when it's unopened. I gave them as gifts to my groomsmen at my wedding. 5/6 were martial artists.

Other viable candidates (beside the mini-mag mentioned above):

Two-headed steel wrenches
Sturdy metal scissors (hook the larger eye ring in the last 3 fingers and butt the other eye ring against your palm; your thumb gets reinforced by the back of one of the blades)

These are good "ready to hand" weapons because they are so easily accessble.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Waltyr]

Also, I don't know if it has already been mentiones as far as 'make-shift' palm sticks/pocket sticks/kubutons, but I've recently seen that the "SHARPY" permenant markers have a 'beefed up' version marker thats about 6 or so inches long and about 3/4 to 1 inch thick.
Personally, one of the advantages about this is that its available almost anywhere and you can take it anywhere, along with the fact that the marker cap has a clip that one can attach to almost any part of your cloth (say if you happen to be wearing a button-up shirt, or pants pocket...etc..) Just a thought.....and who knows, you might actually need to write with it....


W.v.

[arnisador]

Also, I don't know if it has already been mentiones as far as 'make-shift' palm sticks/pocket sticks/kubutons, but I've recently seen that the "SHARPY" permenant markers have a 'beefed up' version marker thats about 6 or so inches long and about 3/4 to 1 inch thick.
Are these actually intended for self-defense, like the so-called "flashlights" that are clearly being marketed as pocket sticks with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, or are they truly make-shift weapons?

[JohnJ]

Are these actually intended for self-defense, like the so-called "flashlights" that are clearly being marketed as pocket sticks with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, or are they truly make-shift weapons?

Let's face it...as FMA players, the principles of the blade can make relatively anything a very viable tool for defense. An inch on each side from a pen, sharpee, mini-maglite to the kubotan is all you need to thrust, butt, strike, shear, scarpe, hook, impinge nerves etc.

[grimfang]

A used spark plug is perfectly legal to keep in your pocket. Not the sturdiest thing in the world, but its pretty easy to replace if it breaks or gets lost. And its got that little metal fork on the end which could be really nasty if it 'accidently' got straightened out.

[Carol]

Also, I don't know if it has already been mentiones as far as 'make-shift' palm sticks/pocket sticks/kubutons, but I've recently seen that the "SHARPY" permenant markers have a 'beefed up' version marker thats about 6 or so inches long and about 3/4 to 1 inch thick.
Personally, one of the advantages about this is that its available almost anywhere and you can take it anywhere, along with the fact that the marker cap has a clip that one can attach to almost any part of your cloth (say if you happen to be wearing a button-up shirt, or pants pocket...etc..) Just a thought.....and who knows, you might actually need to write with it....


W.v.

Interesting idea, Waltyr.

Have you or anyone tried fighting with a Sharpie? (On the mat or off...)

The caps of those sharpies are very large...they cover over a third of the barrell...and they are desiged to be removed easily. I would wonder if this ease of motion would interfere with a strike.

Even if one plunged the sharpie square on in to a surface, if the sharpie went cap-first in to the impact, the cap woud definitely give and deflect some of the blow.

That's just how I see it in my mind though. I don't know how realistic that is in practice. Anyone?


Carol

[arnisador]

I can imagine the cap coming off, leaving only the felt (?) marking surface. Hmmm...I will need to play with one! With the cap gone, is the marking surface soft or still hard beneath a small tip?

[JohnJ]

I can imagine the cap coming off, leaving only the felt (?) marking surface. Hmmm...I will need to play with one! With the cap gone, is the marking surface soft or still hard beneath a small tip?

Not much of a concern cause you have the other side to still work with. And, even if the tip is left, you are striking with such intensity it will push right down basically sliding the tip into the tubing part of the marker so your just as good to go.

[Waltyr]

In all honesty, I haven't attempted to train with or even use the fat version Sharpie marker as of yet. I was at work and I noticed the BIG Sharpie sitting on someones desk. At that moment I picked it up and it felt good in the hand and reminded me of my palm stick that I carry (or dulo-dulo).
My hope is that maybe this weekend I'll be able to pick up a couple of them and see how they work out. Perhaps maybe bring it to class and see what the instructor thinks about it.
I can see the problem of the felt portion being pushed back into the marker, though one would most likely keep the cap on if your about to engage in any type of conflict, don't you think??
Again this is all theory until one actually give this idea a chance. One might find out that a Sharpie wouldn't be the best selection, but perhaps a something similiar in nature. But hey, give it a shot and see what happens.

[JohnJ]

I can see the problem of the felt portion being pushed back into the marker, though one would most likely keep the cap on if your about to engage in any type of conflict, don't you think??

If striking is the preferred choice, and executed in rapid cycling motion, chances are the cover could come off. We should not spend too much time posing these minor concerns as the emphasis is to strike, lock, thrust etc. with a viable, hard enough object. If I had a pen I wouldn't give it a second thought that maybe the tip would break. I would only hope it breaks as I sink it in my assailant.

[SAL]

Hey Guys
About two years ago I did a project on the pocket stick. This is the first page of the text, it should help with some more info on the pocket stick.

Sal


The Pocket Stick
Applied to the Empty Hand Techniques of
Modern Arnis


The pocket stick is a short impact weapon that is used by various martial art styles and is made from a variety of materials and comes in different shapes and sizes. It is easy to carry, cheap and easily adaptable from objects available to you during your every day routine
(pencils, pens, eating utensils etc.).

The name Pocket Stick is a generic term for this weapon.
Some of the other names for it are
Kubotan, Olisi Palad, Dulo Dulo, Pasak and Chizikun-bo

All of these, regardless of shape or size, have one thing in common.
They all require the user to hold them in a clenched fist
in order to retain control of them.
The one exception is the Okinawan version of the pocket stick called the Chizikun-bo.

This weapon utilizes a finger loop that slips over the middle finger and allows the user to open his/her hand for grabbing, while still
retaining control of the weapon.

The Chizikun-bo was and still is used by Okinawan fisherman to assist them in pulling in their fishing nets. It allows them to hook with the tool as well as still being able to use their fingers for grabbing, without fear of losing the tool. It has tapered ends and fits very well in the hand.

For these reasons the Chizikun-bo is the best design that allows for hand grabbing and manipulation that are predominate traits of Modern Arnis.

Used with the techniques of Professor Remy Presas’ Modern Arnis,
the pocket stick can be a very effective defensive tool
or a nasty offensive weapon.
With the pocket stick, defense and offense are the same.

[kabaroan]

I recently acquired a pair of titanium chopsticks in purple. I even use them to eat; noodles are bit of a challenge but sticky rice is great! :)

[SAL]

Here is an example of an Okinawan pocket stick. It is perfect for use in Modern Arnis empty hand applications.The finger loop allows for weapon retention and the tapered ends are excellent for pressure point strikes.

Salhttp://www.cebuwest.com/gallery/albums/edit/preview_e7cec65f.JPG

[Carol]

Sal,

You brought some to the meet and greet. How can one purchase such a pocket stick?

Carol

[SAL]

I have a few pair available now and I'm getting more in a few months.
E-mail me and I'll make arangements to get anyone who's interested a pair.

SAL

[Waltyr]

Greetings,


I would definetly be interested in knowing where you purchased those pocket sticks. By all means, please post the info. and price so that I could get hooked up with a couple as well!!!


W.v.

[MSTCND]

Guro Sal,

Would you please stash away a set of pocket sticks for me?

I'll pick them up at Datu Hartmans Seminar next month...

Thank you!

Best Regards,

Andy

[SAL]

My contact info is at www.cebuwest.com (http://www.cebuwest.com)

E-mail or call me and I'll make arrangements for exchanging info.

Andy, got a set put aside for you. See you at the seminar.

Sal

Here's what they look like with the pouch.

http://www.cebuwest.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_IM001046.JPG

[MSTCND]

My contact info is at www.cebuwest.com (http://www.cebuwest.com)

E-mail or call me and I'll make arrangements for exchanging info.

Andy, got a set put aside for you. See you at the seminar.

:bow:

[arnisador]

I more and more look for folding knives that extend far enough on each side of my fist in the closed position that I can use them as a pocket stick. I'm surprised how many fall just short of this!

[lhommedieu]

I more and more look for folding knives that extend far enough on each side of my fist in the closed position that I can use them as a pocket stick...

I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that I like Benchmade's AFCK folder because it can double as a pocket stick. Tuhon William McGrath from Pekiti Tirsia International (http://www.pekiti.com/) has a nice clip about the transition that can be made from empty hand to pocket stick (palm stick) to knife using the same basic movements on this link (http://pekiti.com/video_clips/palmst.mpg).

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Carol]

Spyderco calls this an "urban tactical utility knife"

The handle was designed for pressure point/less-lethal uses.

http://www.esteller.com/Esteller/images/27-5FC87S.gif

[arnisador]

Yes, that's what I mean! Looks neat, by the way.

[Silence_sucks]

Has anyone read some of the Don Rearic pocket stick articles on http://www.donrearic.com/ ? That guy brings up some good points on the usefulness and validity of the pocket stick as weapon and the differences (or lack of) between the various types. As mentioned before the finger loop should make grabbing no problem and the stringed varients are less likely to leave you with broken fingers in a struggle than the solid rings. Also that rotating pocked stick on the ring was an interesting idea for concealment any opinions?

[Carol]

Interesting stuff! I hadn't read the articles before. His writing style is a bit tedious, but he lays out quite a bit of information to consider when using a pocket stick.

As far as the validity....just my personal opinion....but in my experience the people that question the validity of the weapon haven't had any training on it or don't have a fundamental understanding of Physics.

If I may put my engineering hat on for a moment...

Pressure = Force over Area: P = F/A

This can be restated as...

Force = Pressure over Area: F = P/A

Pressure and Area are inversely proportional.

If the force of two punches is the same, the force spread over a greater area is going to result in lower pressure than force concentrated in a smaller area.

One example I posted on another board...

There is a part of the building where we are doing some remodeling. Across the floor were some old hunks of ceiling tile. I needed something at the other end of the room, but told the building manager I didn't want to walk across the tile given the shoes that I was wearing.

He said it was OK, because the tile was about to be discarded.

So, I walked across the ceiling tile and....claaaack claaack claaaaack...I was making a tremendous amount of racket doing it. My high heels (OK, they were more like 'medium-heels'" were puncturing the tile. Every step I made showed the print of my heel.

However, my 200+ pound building manager walked across it wearing his work shoes and he didn't have anywhere near the destructive effect on the tile.

It made me think about how a small spike can concentrate a lot of force.

So, I'm wondering about this as an experiment.

I'd like to take a large hunk of that old tile, or industrial styofoam, and mount it flush against a wall. Once in position, I'd hit one area with my bare knuckles, and another with a kubotan, then compare the indentations made from the impact.

I haven't done the experiment yet. However, I predict that the outcome would be...both made an impact, but the impact from the kubotan would be smaller, more focused, and much deeper.

[arnisador]

Don Rearic used to post a lot at MartialTalk (http://www.martialtalk.com) (as Don Rearic, IIRC). He has some interesting material--I certainly didn't always agree, but it was generally thought-provoking and worth considering.


Pressure = Force over Area: P = F/A

This can be restated as...

Force = Pressure over Area: F = P/A


(Hmmm, I think you want F=PA, force/area times area gives total force.)


It made me think about how a small spike can concentrate a lot of force.

Yup. Your experiment would be interesting...but then we'd still need to know which has a greater impact on the human body: Concentrated force, or distributed force. It seems intuitively clear to me that it's the former.

One things about this is that you'd just plain feel free to hit harder when you knew you couldn't hurt your hand (knuckles). I'd suggest using your tactical flashlight (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=874) for the experiment if I didn't know your 'success rate' in breaking them!

[Silence_sucks]

Ahhh stop it!! I just finished school and your brining me back to my horrible engineering lessons! haha i know what you mean though, i liked Don Rearics method of proving the validity of the pocket stick by encouraging people to take the blunt end of a pencil, smash it against the back of their hand and see if they still think pocket sticks are useless. That guy has some good stuff and your right about him laying out info (despite the tediousness) though his use of headings highlights the points he makes exremely well and he makes some good points especialy in some of his articles describing fighting overall and knife/defence laws and politics.

[nash]

I think pocket sticks are great. I like that you can lock in the attackers joints, which is perfect for me since I tend to use my legs more. I can lock the attacker in and knee and kick them all I want.

[Carol]

(Hmmm, I think you want F=PA, force/area times area gives total force.)



DOH! . Thanks for the correction. I'm getting my terms mixed up and getting everyone confused. Perhaps I really need to stick with telecom...LOL!

Hey Silence,

Sorry to bring back nightmares! :D :D :D






Yup. Your experiment would be interesting...but then we'd still need to know which has a greater impact on the human body: Concentrated force, or distributed force. It seems intuitively clear to me that it's the former.

One things about this is that you'd just plain feel free to hit harder when you knew you couldn't hurt your hand (knuckles). I'd suggest using your tactical flashlight (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=874) for the experiment if I didn't know your 'success rate' in breaking them!


Yeah, but it has a lifetime warranty...even when the light is used for (ahem) non-traditional reasons. ;)

That's actually a great suggestion. I'd like to try it.

Your question of whether concentrated force or distributed force has more of an effect on the human body is a damn good one.

I'd speculate that in most cases, concentrated force has more of an effect.

After all...this how knives "work", yes? The reasons why knives do damage is because the force is concentrated in one or two thousandths of an inch. When the blade gets dull...what has happened is that the edge of the blade has worn to an area that is too thick. Sharpening the edge of a knife is nothing more than thinning the edge of a knife...which allows the same pressure to penetrate deeper.

[nash]

Originally posted by Carol Kaur
I'd speculate that in most cases, concentrated force has more of an effect.


I'm sure this is right. There is scientific evidence to support this. It's like this, think of the way we are trained to fall. Spread out and land flat and the shock is distributed over the entire area, which hurts consideribly less than falling in a ball shape and having the force consentrated on one area of your body. It helps keep bones from breaking and can help you feel less pain.

[arnisador]

Yet...the 'stopping power' of a bullet is a hydrostatic effect that is distributed over the body via the pressure wave the bullet causes. The immediate effect is due to a distributed (wave) result of a point force, while the lethality is due to the damge caused by the highly concentrated force itself (damage due to the bullet's path).

A concentrated strike from a pocket stick causes more pain and is more likely to break a bone or rupture something. But what about the same force delivered via a slapping palm-strike to the head? Might it be more likely to cause a concussion (global effect), whereas the pocket stick is more likely to cause a skull fracture (point failure)? I don't know.

[nash]

A concentrated strike from a pocket stick causes more pain and is more likely to break a bone or rupture something. But what about the same force delivered via a slapping palm-strike to the head? Might it be more likely to cause a concussion (global effect), whereas the pocket stick is more likely to cause a skull fracture (point failure)? I don't know.
Very good question. I'm not sure on this since a concussion is the brain touching the inner wall of the skull. I would think that a fracture caused by concentrated point force would also cause the the brain to concuss. I would have to talk to a few of my medic and doctor friends to see what they think about the subject.

[arnisador]

I'm wondering if the concentrated force is 'spent' on the fracture with little left to displace the whole skull, while the distributed force, since it doesn't go 'into' the break, can displace the whole skull and cause the concussion...sort of like a bullet causes much damage but doesn't propel the body backwards, but an equivalent hit from the flat of a shovel would move the body back.

Just thinking out loud...

[nash]

This again is a very good question. I'm not too sure about how that would work. I guess here we can examine the mechanics of brick or board breaking. Since the skull is relativley thin it may work like a stack of bricks. A stack of individual bricks is easierto break than a slap of the same height (which would be the thickness of the slab). It has to do with the pressure required to break a material. The pressure to break a half inch brick is considerabley less than a 6 foot thick brick of the same material. The pressure will transfer to the next brick as you drive through. So can it be the same with the brain? If you break the skull and try to drive through could you cause the pressure to transfer to the brain and cause a concussion?

[Brock]

I think a bullet would still cause concussive damage to the brain as well as the penitration, so my guess would be that a pocket stick would do the same.

[nash]

Ok, I just got done talking to a medic friend of mine. He said that a concussion is in reality the brain swelling and pressing against the skull. When I asked him if fracturing or punturing the skull would cause a concussion, he said that he doesn't know. But since the brain is such a sensitive organ, it is likely that the brain would swell and press against the skull causing pressure, dialated pupils and memory loss. These are all symptoms of a concussion which can be seen in victims of fractured skulls and gunshot wounds. So in cunclusion it is likely that a fracture skull would cause a concussion, however it could cause serious damage to the brain. So what is better, a minor bit of damage letting you escape the dangers, or possibly causing some brain damage to the attacker?

[Carol]

I'm...not a medic. I can only speak in regards to what I learned in rehab from a car accident when I was 17. There are different grades of concussions and different levels of injury. Mine was bad but not life-threatening. A break in the skull I would think would be a life threatening injury.

In terms of what is better for the defender...in many ways that is a legal question. In my state, if one is arrested fighting with anything except empty hands, the state will bring Assault with a Deadly Weapon charges. These charges have been brought on people for having shod feet (a foot with shoes on), for having a pen in their hand, and a variety of other circumstances that I think are a bit ludicrous but...it is the law and I must abide by it.

So...in terms of what is better for the defender...the best answer I can come up with is...the amount of force that is necessary for the situation.

[arnisador]

But since the brain is such a sensitive organ, it is likely that the brain would swell and press against the skull causing pressure

Hmmm...a good point. Even if the initial trauma didn't cause swelling the way a punch would, the secondary effects quickly would.

[nash]

So...in terms of what is better for the defender...the best answer I can come up with is...the amount of force that is necessary for the situation.

Exactly Carol, and the only time deadly force is authorized (deadly force in military terms is defined by the most amount of force needed to make an apprehention) is when your life is in danger. There are certain steps that should be followed. Shout, show, shove, shoot is what we use. Shout at the assailant to get everyones attention. Show that you do have the means to injure them. Shove them away, and then use the greatest amount of force needed to neutralize the situation.

[DAMAG-INC]

With the material I teach we use the palm stick as a training tool for other daily objects. The most common replacement is the unopened knife.

Gruhn

I've been working on the same stuff with the unopened knife. In this video link below I used simple English terms for the layman instead of using the FMA terms (i.e. "gunting", "pak-sak"-etc.). I made it as easy as possible to comprehend for this demonstration for the Gen. public.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g6gZMOlWEw

[arnisador]

I've been working on the same stuff with the unopened knife.

I think about this often--how I could use an unopened folder as a dulo-dulo, at the least to buy time to open it.