Doble daga mixed grips

[blue]

I've asked this of a few instructors: just wondering what others on this forum think.
In Pekiti Doble daga, mixed grips, the material seems to favor right pakal and left saksak (while in right lead). What about the reverse, which would seem to preserve the longer range capabilities of the lead hand, and save the power for the rear?

[kaliman1978]

It all depends on what range you were planning to fight at largo or corto. If largo I think you would want to use as your lead, the grip that favors long range fighting which would be sak sak, and you could keep the rear hand in pakal for hooking or jabs if you chose to do it that way. Understand that pakal is for a range that is very close, so if you don't want the guy right on top of you you might want to keep it largo. The rule with pakal for me is, if you aren't in punching range then I cannot use pakal effectively. Just my 2 cents.

[blue]

kaliman1978 wrote: "so if you don't want the guy right on top of you you might want to keep it largo"

Right. Which is why I'm curious why Pekiti seems to favor right lead pakal and left rearhand saksak in its mixed grip curriculum. Is the assumption that close range is the favored range?

In general, the doble daga curriculum is so comprehensive, covering all permutations (double saksak, double pakal, right pakal/left saksak): why is right saksak/left pakal left out?

(Theoretically, one could just do mirror image of the right pakal/left saksak teachings, but that would put you in left lead, which doesn't seem as natural...)

Thanks for your help...

[Jack Latorre]

Hello All--

Much of what you see in the Doble Daga syllabus of PTI are parallels of what is seen is Espada Y Daga. Adjustments are made due to length of weapon but the transitive properties tend to be readily seen if you've been exposed to both blocks of information.

The pakal hand tends to reflect the punyo of the espada...thus initially one sees the right hand (typically the espada) in pakal. This explains why ones sees mixed grip Doble Daga favoring right pakal. The left hand in saksak keeps its translation in function from Espada Y Daga.


As for right saksak/left pakal being left out...it really isn't. In Doble Daga 3, which reflects mixed grip for both the operator and attacker, ones does see the grip change for half of the material. It is pertinent, however, to note that being exposed to curriculum is one thing...training it is quite another, as it is with anything.

As for leads, footwork can be a dynamic thing. Range does in fact determine much. But so does power and how one generates it with proper body dynamics. So rather than let rote memorization of technique determine that, let the dynamics of motion and the associated thought-provoking process be your guide. And qualified instructors will certainly be helpful.

Best,

Jack A. Latorre

[TuhonBill]

Hello All--

Much of what you see in the Doble Daga syllabus of PTI are parallels of what is seen is Espada Y Daga. Adjustments are made due to length of weapon but the transitive properties tend to be readily seen if you've been exposed to both blocks of information.

The pakal hand tends to reflect the punyo of the espada...thus initially one sees the right hand (typically the espada) in pakal. This explains why ones sees mixed grip Doble Daga favoring right pakal. The left hand in saksak keeps its translation in function from Espada Y Daga.


As for right saksak/left pakal being left out...it really isn't. In Doble Daga 3, which reflects mixed grip for both the operator and attacker, ones does see the grip change for half of the material. It is pertinent, however, to note that being exposed to curriculum is one thing...training it is quite another, as it is with anything.

As for leads, footwork can be a dynamic thing. Range does in fact determine much. But so does power and how one generates it with proper body dynamics. So rather than let rote memorization of technique determine that, let the dynamics of motion and the associated thought-provoking process be your guide. And qualified instructors will certainly be helpful.

Best,

Jack A. Latorre

An excellent post by Jack. I would just add this. When asked which hand and which grip to hold two knives in, I suggest that you put your larger knife in your dominant hand. As for which grip to use: use the grip that's best for each knife. Most pocketknife sized blades tend to be better used in Pakal grip. Conversely, if a knife is large enough to be used effectively in Sak-Sak, then it tends to be too large to use in Pakal; as a long blade in Pakal grip presents a danger to the user in some movements or is at the very least awkward to use in that grip. So if I had two knives, for example a Cold Steel Rajah (a heavy knife with a 6 inch blade) and a large Voyager (a lightweight knife with a 4 inch blade), then I would have the Rajah in my right hand in Sak-Sak and the Voyager in my left in Pakal.

As for which lead to use, in single knife there are some advantages to using a left lead when fighting an opponent using a knife in the same grip as you are using, in that you are better able to use your empty hand effectively for checking, locking, etc. When your opponent is in a different grip than you (and there is more of a reach difference in your grips - ie Sak-Sak vs. Pakal), then I feel it's more of a largo game and you will want to bring your knife side forward. In Sak-Sak, to use your greater reach over Pakal to your advantage: in Pakal, to help reduce some of Sak-Sak's advantage.
In double knife, you have a bit more flexibility in stance, but, just as in single stick and Espada y Daga, there are times when you want the shorter weapon in the lead (for example, when moving from medio to corto during an entry).

An excellent question and several excellent answers given. Please keep the technical questions like this coming.


Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

[lhommedieu]

Great discussion, and really, a good standard to which to hold future technical threads!

The only thing that I can think to add is that in my (hypothetical) race to the kitchen to grab a couple of knives to defend my family, etc., I might not be thinking clearly enough to decide which way I'm going to hold them. I'll just grab and turn and end up with some combination of pakal/sak-sak - and whatever training I've had will just come out. At that point it's just going to be, as the old saying goes, "While you're in the kitchen, I'll be gettin' a sandwich."

The foregoing conversation can be part of that training - if I take the time, while training, to deliberately train based upon the inights offered above (here you have, in a nutshell, the advantages that participating in an internet forum can offer you - without the usual political bullsh*t that often takes the place of real conversation). For example, Tuhon said something about using pakal to mitigate sak-sak's reach advantage - but what does that actually mean unless you take the time to train with someone who understands what it means, and spend a lot of time doing it?

Finally, you should never ignore the way that chance and accident warp theory. If I am reading Jack's post correctly we should infer that it's not the techniques, per se, that are important, but the attributes that training the techniques will develop. So I might reach for a larger knife for my dominant hand, etc. - without consciously knowing what I'm doing, but I might not - in which case some other pakal/sak-sak skill-set that I've trained will have to come out, for better or worse.

Best,

Steve

[Jack Latorre]

If I am reading Jack's post correctly we should infer that it's not the techniques, per se, that are important, but the attributes that training the techniques will develop.


Hello All--

I think it's fair to say that it is the techniques...in part...and the conditions under which those techniques were designed for, providing some important things, such as...

...the natural physical attributes of the practitioner, as well as the attributes that the techniques and associated drills are designed to foster...

...mental preparation during training, as well as mental readiness during the engagement...

...and, as Steve says, how chance and accident rear their heads...

It's really nothing that other threads haven't discussed in some form or other, but the specifics regarding mixed grip Doble Daga make it good mental exercise that translate well to actual practicum...with knife or even without...but that's another discussion...

Train hard and often,

Jack A. Latorre

[wes tasker]

For what it's worth - I, of course, completely agree with what Tuhon Bill, Jack, and Steve say... I've often looked at the permutations of doble daga techniques and levels as just examples of heuristics that need to then be brought back into drills and in a more "friction" based environment (which may be sparring, contested drills, scenario work, etc.).....

Like the example that Steve states where you never know how you are going to end up so you might as well have trained as many possibilities (or better yet the theory / principles) as one can under someone who has the base knowledge...

Now if you'll excuse me I have this image of Steve dispatching would be home invaders and then making BLT's for his family... Of course I know that if people were to invade his home, he'd be the least of the problems they encountered :wink2:...

-wes tasker

[blue]

Thank you for all the considered and thought-provoking responses!

I readily admit that the days of two duelists "choosing their weapons" are long gone: Steve's kitchen scenario is much more likely (which argues for not scrimping when it comes to the kitchen cutlery...)

I guess the best that we can hope for is Tuhon Bill's scenario of choosing/carrying the knives to bring with him, and considering ahead of time how he might deploy them (one long knife and one short knife seems to be quite common among outdoorsman from what I understand...)

Jack's point about needing to understand the conditions that give rise to certain techniques is certainly what drove my curiosity about this question: the fact that the mixed grip pakal derived from espada y daga punyo explains why it went in that direction. (Alas, my impression of the right saksak/left pakal in Doble Daga 3 was tainted by the fact that it tended to be used by the feeder, who was then decisively neutralized by the operator, leading me to wonder if it was an inherently less sound combination: I stand happily corrected.)

With regards to Tuhon Bill's point about left lead if both opponents are in the same grip: hmmmm. I must admit, I've only been able to pull off left lead in the medio/corto range. In largo, I've usually found my left arm the victim of sniping attacks with little counter-attacking possible. No doubt this goes back to footwork: it always does...

Which brings us to Steve and Wes's advice to train it in order to derive the essence: This will be taken to heart and I have just arranged to meet up with Guro Mike tomorrow for more grasps at the truth :)

And of course, Jack's recommendation about qualified instructors is well taken: I do indeed hope to have the privilege of training with some of you one day...

Thanks again