Appropriate level of disclosure?

[selfcritical]

I had planned on having a fairly technical discussion on the differences (and similarities) of the material discussed in DLO and the SBGI's STAB programme. I know that you've gone to a great deal of trouble to keep a lot of thet info under wraps.....is there anything you would like to make sure ISN'T discussed in a semi-public way? Some of the things discussed i independently know from my pekiti training, but I'd prefer not to cross any lines.

Thanks in advance crafty

PS. You should really try to get Erwin Ballarta to see this material as soon as possible. I don't think there's anyone else with the same depth of both FMA and defensive tactics background that would be better able to appreciate and comment on it.

[The Phalanx]

Is this a professional way of saying "that I've seen the stuff on DLO before from other people."?

I mean are there really any secrets in Martial Arts and defensive tactics anymore? After thousands of years of combat and tactical training, what is there left to be kept secret?

Human movement is human movement all over the world... There is no other way you can move the human body... So there are no "kept secrets" or "exclusive technique from(insert art) in anything anymore... Just things that other people haven't found out about yet...

[selfcritical]

More like "obviouusly crafty's gone to some trouble to blur out what the hends are doing in DLO, out ouf courtesy would you prefer in technical conversation that I not tell any of those details that aren't learned (for me) from another source".

I've got a background in pekiti, so you can probably guess if you've seen the video which parts I'm talking about.

[The Phalanx]

More like "obviouusly crafty's gone to some trouble to blur out what the hends are doing in DLO, out ouf courtesy would you prefer in technical conversation that I not tell any of those details that aren't learned (for me) from another source".

I've got a background in pekiti, so you can probably guess if you've seen the video which parts I'm talking about.

I don't have a background in PTK... But if you're talking about the Dog Catcher, it's not something I haven't seen from another art either... In fact, I've practiced something similar in another system... I don't really know which technique you're talking about if you're beating around the bush about it...

This is not new to me when a technique from one system/art is called another term in another system/art... One great example is the Kimura Lock in BJJ which in Judo is called something else...

Like what I said, human movement is human movement... There is no such thing as "purely of (insert art)" anymore... Combat evolves and techniques can be similar to other techniques... There are no big MA secrets anymore...

[Crafty Dog]

Phalanx:

I would offer as the other half of things the idea that yes there are only 12 notes in western music, but that does not mean that there are no new melodies.

OF COURSE any given element can be found elsewhere, (indeed the role/skill set of one of the hands lead me to name it "the pekiti hand" in recognition of the influence), but with our DLO material I like to think that I have assembled things in a way that, taken in its totality, is pretty innovative (and most people who have bought the DVD or trained with me in this material agree)-- but that is simply my opinion and just like a nose, everyone has one of those.

Self-critical:

Thanks for asking.

On my own Dog Brother forum
http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?board=1.0
we have a policy of not comparing styles directly. Although such a discussion may begin with the best of intentions, my sense of things is that it often leads to problems. Indeed, given some internet dust ups of a few years ago (from which all concerned have moved on as far as I know) I suspect the potential here for misunderstanding to be a bit higher than usual.

OTOH this forum is NOT my house, and the desire to converse about these things is quite natural. Also quite natural is the human desire to see if one can pick up enough knowledge about a DVD to make it unnecessary to buy it. Naturally my hope is that the conversation not have this effect. That too I think is quite human :-)

I readily admit that the ongoing irritations in my life of trying to deal with pirate operations of our products tends to make me hypersensitive on all of this.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

PS: I have heard nothing but excellent things about Irwin Ballarta over the years and would be delighted if our paths were to cross.

PPS: For those interested in substantive conversation about our DLO material, use the "advanced search function" on our forum for "DLO".

[gagimilo]

I readily admit that the ongoing irritations in my life of trying to deal with pirate operations of our products tends to make me hypersensitive on all of this.



I guess that's the downside of having a law school background... :-))

All kidding aside, I understand the frustration. First, it is only natural having in mind the effort and investments that are obviously part of your video products, unlike in many others. Second, I have found out myself that people have the tendency of taking things lightly, or discarding their value altogether, if obtained freely or at low cost.

Personally, although the material in DLO was not any sort of a revelation for me, I certainly did like the overall framework and the instructional approach it presents. Therefore, I certainly have no regrets about shelling out some considerable cash for it...hell, I plan to do the same thing with Dos Triques stuff.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I feel your pain crafty dog as I just found out a while back that some of my books and dvd's were being black marketed as well. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon13.gif (fortunately a stop to it has been successful for the moment)

[arnisador]

we have a policy of not comparing styles directly. Although such a discussion may begin with the best of intentions, my sense of things is that it often leads to problems.[...]OTOH this forum is NOT my house, and the desire to converse about these things is quite natural.

We certainly understand why you'd have such a policy. Style-to-style comparisons are all too often either banal or heated. But, when questions like "What are the differences between Remy Presas' Modern Arnis and Ernesto Presas Kombatan (previously called Modern Arnis?)" or "What JKD lineage would have the greatest FMA content?" come up, we see value in would-be FMAers getting some info. from posters here. It's a fine line. We've had heated discussions of differences between two orgs. within a style here, and in one case the differences being discussed were so subtle that I couldn't discern them (and there were lots of similar discussions on our sister site MartialTalk when Modern Arnis fragmented). Well, people in real life who ask me what the best martial art is get a lengthy discussion on what "best" might mean.


the ongoing irritations in my life of trying to deal with pirate operations of our products

I have a textbook (unrelated to the martial arts) and this has been a huge headache (and loss) for me too. Please do let us know if you ever see anyone trying to do that here as we don't tolerate it.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[PG Michael B]

Damn pirates....call the SEALS..oh shite..wrong pirates..or are they?...LOL



I have heard nothing but excellent things about Irwin Ballarta over the years and would be delighted if our paths were to cross


Irwin is a great dude...humble...knowledgable and just as nice as can be. His Pekiti is top notch (one of the best I ever saw)..and I studied the system for some 10 years here in south Tejas (Pekitiville). He also has some serious Balintiwak skills..I believe he learned from the Buots while he lived and worked in Michigan. All in all Irwin is just a great guy!

[selfcritical]

Phalanx:

I would offer as the other half of things the idea that yes there are only 12 notes in western music, but that does not mean that there are no new melodies.

OF COURSE any given element can be found elsewhere, (indeed the role/skill set of one of the hands lead me to name it "the pekiti hand" in recognition of the influence), but with our DLO material I like to think that I have assembled things in a way that, taken in its totality, is pretty innovative (and most people who have bought the DVD or trained with me in this material agree)-- but that is simply my opinion and just like a nose, everyone has one of those.

Self-critical:

Thanks for asking.



PS: I have heard nothing but excellent things about Irwin Ballarta over the years and would be delighted if our paths were to cross.

PPS: For those interested in substantive conversation about our DLO material, use the "advanced search function" on our forum for "DLO".

I can attest that while I have seen all the of individual elements of DLO 1(at least the parts that don't involve guns) previously, the combination is unique(while still being a fairly natural outgrowth- the head placement and it's use in place of the third-hand strike was something i'd contemplated before but been unable to develop prior). I think if someone has good pekiti training they will find it dramatically easier to gain the initial crash via the dog catcher. Of course, is someone has excellent silat or greco skills, i'd expect the followups to be likewise).

In retrospect, i've found that i've accidentally done the dog catcher in response to a repeated, spastic stab on the same line.

We're going to give a try to working this material during my normal pekiti sparring sessions outside of class, I'll probably just sign up for a membership so I can have a relatively safe place to discuss technical details without giving too much away.

PS. I'll probably try to get Leslie to take a look at the material at some point, and see if it works it's way up to Irwin that way. At the last Texas Kali Mastery camp he gave about a 4 hour mini-seminar about weapon retention and deployment(and enabling the latter with tapping and segung-labo) including some some groundwork, which I found very illuminating.

[Edge]

Crafty Dog, just wanted to say 'woof' and congratulation on making an excellent DVD! DLO 1 was an eye opener! I like your format a lot; no nonsense yet playful. The dog catcher and PTK hands were useful when we drilled our knife work. Many of our entries had been 'flinch' response akin to the Richard Dimitri's Shredder and seeing a Filipino flavor added to the mix of combatives brought a big smile to my face.

Salamat,
Rich