Your favorite Ilustrisimo technique

[Black Grass]

For the Ilustrisimo players in the room.

What is you favorite Ilustrisimo technique and why?

(pls describe as terminology in Ilustrisimo is not universal also for our non-Ilustrisimo members).

I'll start.

Classico (Klassico)
- A defence against a mid or low level slash or thrust from the open ( albrieta) position. As the attack comes in, it is avoided using a retreating x-stance ( Ekais) and a strike to the incoming limb. When the attack passes (or is passed) the defender returns facing the oponent with the weapon occupying centre line ready to trust.

I like this move because I think it looks kewl.


Vince
aka Black Grass

[JohnJ]

Doble Carrera (double race) from either abierta or cerrada position.

As your opponent (assuming right vs. right) slashes diagonally to your left temple, aggressively flank at 45 degrees to his outside with your own diagonal slash. However, the object is to slash at his eyes/face first and then using the same line, intercept his weapon. Once his weapon is met, bring it right back on the same line with a thrust. Make sure you utilize bantay-kamay to monitor weaponhand. This works very well against a backhanded attack and depending on your range...a counter is limited.

JohnJ
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

[Matt Lim]

Praxion
A preemptive strike/counter against any attack initiated by the opponent.

Salamat!

[oosh]

KAPA - an explosive and painful disarm, where the thumb and index finger is secured and then POP ! :D

[JohnJ]

PraxionA preemptive strike/counter against any attack initiated by the opponent

Just for clarification...Pracion is a principle not an actual technique.

[Matt Lim]

Just for clarification...Pracion is a principle not an actual technique.
Yup!

Then, I would say, Cadena Real/Tumbada - an entering technique by spilling off an attack and returning a cut in one fluid movement.

Salamat!

[Black Grass]

Yup!

Then, I would say, Cadena Real/Tumbada - an entering technique by spilling off an attack and returning a cut in one fluid movement.

Salamat!

I would say that is my second fav!

Vince
aka BLack Grass

[armas]

Media fraile: this is used vs. a diagonal backhand or a downward strike to the top of the head. You are in abierta position. You sidestep to the right and intercept with the tip of the weapon. Then you counterstrike with a thrust. Don't forget the left hand to parry the weaponhand.

Second is Estrella-arco- vs an inside strike to the left side of the head or body or downward strike to the top of the head. As you sweep your weapon from abierta position you hit the head of the opponent as you sidestep to the right. Then you block or hit the weapon hand of the opponent check with the left and slash the body with a backhand strike.

here's a story of me learning estrella from Tatang. I ask him why did he call this technique Estrella. Tatang says strike me with here in the left temple. He executes estrella as he hits me in the head then my hand parries and I get hit on the side. He says did you see any estrellas(Stars)! hahaha! This is a true story. I was a beginner in Kalis Ilustrisimo. I wish I had a camcorder when I was studying with him. Hope you guys like it.

[JohnJ]

Hi Armas,

Just curious who you are and with whom you currently train with? I don't mean to be overly personal but rather enthusiastic to meet fellow KI players.


Media fraile: this is used vs. a diagonal backhand or a downward strike to the top of the head. You are in abierta position. You sidestep to the right and intercept with the tip of the weapon. Then you counterstrike with a thrust. Don't forget the left hand to parry the weaponhand.

Just for clarification, there are 2 methods of Fraile; Media Fraile and Fraile. Media is used against a downward vertical strike to the crown of the head while Fraile is against a backhand diagonal. You pretty much described Fraile. The use of Media Fraile is to intercept and counter simultaneously. Parry attacking weaponhand while striking opponents eyes with tip of your weapon in one harmonious movement. Basically, you are using your bantay-kamay to push opponent's weaponhand off centerline. By doing so, your weapons should meet and as you clear the opponents weapon, you are retracting yours to his outside for a follow up thrust. This must be done with Tatlong Bao footwork in aggressive or offensive manner.


Second is Estrella-arco- vs downward strike to the top of the head.

Estrella is not done against a vertical or diagonal strike due to the potential of the opponents sword sliding down yours and cutting you. Unless you are executing Advanced Estrella after set up and even that could have the same potential disadvantage.

JohnJ

[oosh]

haha good story Armas :D

[Matt Lim]

Kumusta,


Just for clarification, there are 2 methods of Fraile; Media Fraile and Fraile. Media is used against a downward vertical strike to the crown of the head while Fraile is against a backhand diagonal. You pretty much described Fraile. The use of Media Fraile is to intercept and counter simultaneously. Parry attacking weaponhand while striking opponents eyes with tip of your weapon in one harmonious movement. Basically, you are using your bantay-kamay to push opponent's weaponhand off centerline. By doing so, your weapons should meet and as you clear the opponents weapon, you are retracting yours to his outside for a follow up thrust. This must be done with Tatlong Bao footwork in aggressive or offensive manner.
Here in manila, we practice a "family" of Fraile against all conceivable attacks. The name Media Fraile is the only name we mention in public. You might be familiar with some of them bacause Tatang uses a lot of Fraile. One not so known to the mass was Fraile Lateral demonstrated by Romy Macapagal in his article in Rapid Journal.


Estrella is not done against a vertical or diagonal strike due to the potential of the opponents sword sliding down yours and cutting you. Unless you are executing Advanced Estrella after set up and even that could have the same potential disadvantage.
JohnJ
We suggest that beginners use Estrella against a high body planchada but only at the beginning stage of his training. The mark of an advanced Ilustrisimo practitioner can be seen by his use of Estrella against ANY strike.

Salamat!

[JohnJ]

Here in manila, we practice a "family" of Fraile against all conceivable attacks. The name Media Fraile is the only name we mention in public. You might be familiar with some of them bacause Tatang uses a lot of Fraile. One not so known to the mass was Fraile Lateral demonstrated by Romy Macapagal in his article in Rapid Journal.

KI continues to evolve even as we speak, as any good art should. As you know, the original core techniques varied from 28 to 32 methods from what I have been exposed to. In a recent seminar outline from one of Mang Romy's seminar, there were techniques new and unfamiliar to even his peers. This is a perfect example that KI today continues to develop with GM Tony & Mang Romy. And it is a positive thing.


We suggest that beginners use Estrella against a high body planchada but only at the beginning stage of his training. The mark of an advanced Ilustrisimo practitioner can be seen by his use of Estrella against ANY strike.

There is a reason for that. And as mentioned and concur with your statement, advanced Estrella can certainly be done against a variety of attacks but the set up has become more prevalent. For example, defending against a number 1 is not as easy as attacking the eyes and then followig the line to opponents weaponhand. There aren't many people who can react instinctively like Tatang. Therefore we must assess and decipher what strategies can compliment specific techniques. Mind you this is not a variation or interpretation of Advanced Estrella as Tatang would often set up his opponents.

[Black Grass]

This why I asked for description as opposed to just names of techniques.

Initially when I started learning Ilustrisimo from Master Topher I learned many techniques which I never knew the name until much later. There must have been at least 10 techniques called "this one". :-).

Also some of the terms used in the Kalis Ilustrisimo book, which was co-written by Master Topher he did not use with me, such as "tindig abierta" he simply refered to it as "fighting form". Now it might have been my limited tagalog as he would frequently switch between english and tagalog when teaching me.

Vince
aka Black Grass

[armas]

I can relate to you Vince. That's why it is so hard to describe the techniques in text. It is easier to show it. but all is good. This is a great art!

[Matt Lim]

Kumusta,

KI continues to evolve even as we speak, as any good art should. As you know, the original core techniques varied from 28 to 32 methods from what I have been exposed to. In a recent seminar outline from one of Mang Romy's seminar, there were techniques new and unfamiliar to even his peers. This is a perfect example that KI today continues to develop with GM Tony & Mang Romy. And it is a positive thing.
Evolution is good as long as it doesn't sever itself from the root it professed to be growing from.
But I'm not talking about derivative techniques, I've seen these techniques from Tatang himself. The core style/method is Fraile. Maybe the conflict will stem from the use of different names referring to specific movements but I know Topher is familiar with the actual movements himself.




There is a reason for that. And as mentioned and concur with your statement, advanced Estrella can certainly be done against a variety of attacks but the set up has become more prevalent. For example, defending against a number 1 is not as easy as attacking the eyes and then followig the line to opponents weaponhand. There aren't many people who can react instinctively like Tatang. Therefore we must assess and decipher what strategies can compliment specific techniques. Mind you this is not a variation or interpretation of Advanced Estrella as Tatang would often set up his opponents.
You set up a skilled opponent never an ordinary assailant. The "original" (if I may use the word original) Estrella was meant to engage an aggressive commited attack from a distance(fuera distancia). The only set up there might be the acute awareness and manipulation of distance. It was related to Tres Andanas and Combate Heneral.
The study of Tatang Ilustrisimo's Art can never end. The art is not so eager to reveal what it conceals.
Salamat.

[Matt Lim]

Kumusta,


Initially when I started learning Ilustrisimo from Master Topher I learned many techniques which I never knew the name until much later. There must have been at least 10 techniques called "this one". :-).
It was a device by Topher to prevent you from putting the technique inside a box thus limiting its actual function. It is used to prevent students from "understanding". Understanding is the booby prize of those who can't do.

Also some of the terms used in the Kalis Ilustrisimo book, which was co-written by Master Topher he did not use with me, such as "tindig abierta" he simply refered to it as "fighting form". Now it might have been my limited tagalog as he would frequently switch between english and tagalog when teaching me.

Vince
aka Black Grass
Terms are used to illustrate the art more clearly to the students, to come closer and not to alienate them from the source. Tatang never wanted clones of himself, so he expected his students to express their individual selves and not somebody else.
Salamat.

[Black Grass]

Kumusta,

It was a device by Topher to prevent you from putting the technique inside a box thus limiting its actual function. It is used to prevent students from "understanding". Understanding is the booby prize of those who can't do.

Terms are used to illustrate the art more clearly to the students, to come closer and not to alienate them from the source. Tatang never wanted clones of himself, so he expected his students to express their individual selves and not somebody else.
Salamat.

Matt,

I agree with you to a certain extent, Master Topher really focused on being able to fight, 'training' as opposed to 'learning'. Although I do think there is value in 'understanding' as long as you can 'do'. Alot of western students worry about promotion and learning 'more'. I was coming from JKD and had just broken this habit. The 'more' attitude plagues many practioners JKD .

I agree with you on the second point as well. I think many teachers use terminology to mistify themselves and there systems. Saw alot of this in JKD too. Which is why I asked for descriptions, just cause you know the name of something doesn't me, ***** to me.

What i loved about Tatang he to borrow from Nike 'just do' attitude. I really feel that Master Topher keeps that spirit alive.


Vince
aka Black Grass

For the record I am not a JKD basher as I still train and teach it.

[Matt Lim]

Kumusta,

Matt,

I agree with you to a certain extent, Master Topher really focused on being able to fight, 'training' as opposed to 'learning'. Although I do think there is value in 'understanding' as long as you can 'do'. Alot of western students worry about promotion and learning 'more'. I was coming from JKD and had just broken this habit. The 'more' attitude this plagues JKD many practioners.
Another meaning of "understanding" is limitation. You understood.. past tense. I think Tatang's techniques are alive and their names are just still pictures of the living entity. Heavy emphasis on the name will stifle real understanding.

I agree with you on the second point as well. I think many teachers use terminology to mistify themselves and there systems. Saw alot of this in JKD too. Which is why I asked for descriptions, just cause you know the name of something doesn't me, ***** to me.
I used to tell foreign students that there are no names, just descriptions.


What i loved about Tatang he to borrow from Nike 'just do' attitude. I really feel that Master Topher keeps that spirit alive.
Regards to topher!
Salamat.

[JohnJ]

Evolution is good as long as it doesn't sever itself from the root it professed to be growing from.

I concur.


But I'm not talking about derivative techniques, I've seen these techniques from Tatang himself. The core style/method is Fraile. Maybe the conflict will stem from the use of different names referring to specific movements

Neither was I. I do not base techniques by name but by principles which are universally applicable against a host of attacks. However, we must still point out the point of execution in which this particular technique stems from hence the necessity to make the distinction between the 2 methods. And because of this, my confusion may lie in your description of Fraile used against a vertical strike to the head. In other words, Media can be used effectively against a vertical cause of your ability to use the livehand and ability to move outside the attack with foot work. If you execute from the cerrada position, you are kept within the hazards of the line of attack even with footwork. If it is merely terminology that is creating this gray area, maybe you can shed some light on the Lateral method cause “lateral” (a side movement) ” somewhat contradicts the end position of fraile which is vertical. I assume, this is the method you were referring to?



but I know Topher is familiar with the actual movements himself


I asked Tups and he does not recall a “lateral”. BTW…were you a student of Tatang, a peer of Tophers or a student of Romy???


You set up a skilled opponent never an ordinary assailant.


I disagree. As the saying goes, “never underestimate your opponent”. A less skilled adversary can easily surprise and frustrate you with broken rhythm, timing and intent alone. This is evident in all martial arenas. Therefore, set-ups are essential if your strategies are somewhat negated or failing.


The "original" (if I may use the word original) Estrella was meant to engage an aggressive commited attack from a distance(fuera distancia). The only set up there might be the acute awareness and manipulation of distance. It was related to Tres Andanas and Combate Heneral.

I understand. My point is that set-ups in relation to this technique are more prevalent. It takes more than mere awareness and manipulation of distance. It requires precise timing and the commitment as in the aggressive flanking seen in Combate Heneral.


The study of Tatang Ilustrisimo's Art can never end.

Agreed.


The art is not so eager to reveal what it conceals.

To outsiders of KI I agree but between the senior disciples and now contemporary players, secrecy should be null for WE are not fighting each other. Sadly, I see this with contemporaries from the various factions of KI. If we are to truly preserve Tatang’s legacy then let us make more effort to do it with integrity.

[Matt Lim]

Kumusta,


Neither was I. I do not base techniques by name but by principles which are universally applicable against a host of attacks.
Yes, principle is primary.

However, we must still point out the point of execution in which this particular technique stems from hence the necessity to make the distinction between the 2 methods. And because of this, my confusion may lie in your description of Fraile used against a vertical strike to the head. In other words, Media can be used effectively against a vertical cause of your ability to use the livehand and ability to move outside the attack with foot work. If you execute from the cerrada position, you are kept within the hazards of the line of attack even with footwork. If it is merely terminology that is creating this gray area, maybe you can shed some light on the Lateral method cause “lateral” (a side movement) ” somewhat contradicts the end position of fraile which is vertical. I assume, this is the method you were referring to?
Basic Fraile "Lateral" can be executed from abierta or cerrada but to illustrate it clearly you can start with cerrada posture against a forehand diagonal cut. You intercept the opponent's cut from under his blade with a vertical subida, then you enter outside him, livehand outside inward parry, and redirect his blade to your right all at the same time. Then end it with a #11 thrust. Hope that helps. Macapagal calls it Fraile Tochada.


I asked Tups and he does not recall a “lateral”. BTW…were you a student of Tatang, a peer of Tophers or a student of Romy??? I am a student of Tatang Ilustrisimo. I grew up a few houses from Tatang's.

I disagree. As the saying goes, “never underestimate your opponent”. A less skilled adversary can easily surprise and frustrate you with broken rhythm, timing and intent alone. This is evident in all martial arenas. Therefore, set-ups are essential if your strategies are somewhat negated or failing.Same reason why I refrain from setting up unskilled opponents, they are jerky, choppy, and engaging. In my experience, simple and direct attacks work best.


To outsiders of KI I agree but between the senior disciples and now contemporary players, secrecy should be null for WE are not fighting each other. Sadly, I see this with contemporaries from the various factions of KI. If we are to truly preserve Tatang’s legacy then let us make more effort to do it with integrity.

We here in manila never keep secrets about the techniques/methods of Tatang Ilustrisimo. We teach them even to strangers. Anyone who met Tony, Romy, Yuli, and the rest will attest that their impression of the Ilustrisimo after their first session was that it's so overwhelming, "so many things to learn for so little time". Ilustrisimos are very generous, sometimes too generous. What I'm saying was that the Art itself will not readily reveal itself to just anybody.
On my part, as my expression of respect and gratitude to Tatang Ilustrisimo, I refrain myself from presenting him to the world as One Mean Killing Machine.
Salamat.

[JohnJ]

Basic Fraile "Lateral" can be executed from abierta or cerrada but to illustrate it clearly you can start with cerrada posture against a forehand diagonal cut. You intercept the opponent's cut from under his blade with a vertical subida, then you enter outside him, livehand outside inward parry, and redirect his blade to your right all at the same time. Then end it with a #11 thrust. Hope that helps. Macapagal calls it Fraile Tochada.

Yes. We simply refer to this as fraile. However, your original post described it originally against a vertical strike to the crown of the head. And based on your description now, it cannot be done as both you and your opponent are running vertical lines.


I am a student of Tatang Ilustrisimo. I grew up a few houses from Tatang's.

Ah, so you were one of the very fortunate individuals to have learned directly from Tatang. I guess you were there alonside Mang Tony, Topher and the rest. I will be sure to let him know you were his peer. Are you now training with Mang Tony or Romy?


and the rest will attest that their impression of the Ilustrisimo after their first session was that it's so overwhelming, "so many things to learn for so little time". Ilustrisimos are very generous, sometimes too generous. What I'm saying was that the Art itself will not readily reveal itself to just anybody.

I absolutely agree. The art is still being discovered by many worldwide. And is appreciated for its simplicity and effectiveness. As far as the "Art" revealing itself, that is also often a matter of a students diligence. I am sure you can attest to this as most of you were left to dissect Tatang's methods in an effort to decipher the actual techniques.


I refrain myself from presenting him to the world as One Mean Killing Machine.

I have of heard him ever being described as such.

[Matt Lim]

Yes. We simply refer to this as fraile. However, your original post described it originally against a vertical strike to the crown of the head. And based on your description now, it cannot be done as both you and your opponent are running vertical lines.
It can be used against any strike to the head. If it is a vertical strike to the crown then you don't have to use the initial vertical subida, you sidestep, livehand outside inward parry, sword beat/parry(lateral motion), and thrust. If its a forehand vertical downward strike, I use the cerrada version, if its # 12 then the abierta version is more apt, the end thrust will be #10. This fraile is smoother and less violent compared to the fraile that resembles a wide boca y lobo. The Media Fraile featured in mandirigma tapes were called Media Fraile I and II (I think). Not shown was the cerrada versions of both Frailes. Both featured Frailes had weapon passes but there are stop-thrust versions.




Ah, so you were one of the very fortunate individuals to have learned directly from Tatang. I guess you were there alonside Mang Tony, Topher and the rest. I will be sure to let him know you were his peer. Are you now training with Mang Tony or Romy? I was there before sixto and basti, I was there when Morales was organizing the luneta group, I was there everytime Tony, Romy, Yuli, Norman, Vitalliano, Sioc, or Topher comes to luneta, I was there when murillo, took over training then chavez, batiller, alarzar, then raganas, but I was never part of any group.
I am close to all that trained with tatang who live near his home and those who regularly frequent luneta but I cannot call myself their peer because I seldom practice with them. I am a mere student of Ilustrisimo. And if there is hierarchy in Ilustrisimo, then I am the least.



The art is still being discovered by many worldwide. And is appreciated for its simplicity and effectiveness. As far as the "Art" revealing itself, that is also often a matter of a students diligence. I am sure you can attest to this as most of you were left to dissect Tatang's methods in an effort to decipher the actual techniques.I think it won't be too much to say that only the genuine students can decipher the true nature of the techniques. They are not just mechanical movements.




I have of heard him ever being described as such.Of course I was exaggerating.
Salamat.

[JohnJ]

It can be used against any strike to the head.

May I ask what your end position is on your "family of frailes"?


I was there before...I was there when...I was there everytime...I was there... I am a mere student of Ilustrisimo. And if there is hierarchy in Ilustrisimo, then I am the least

And???? What is your point? Like I said, you were very fortunate to be a student of Tatang. Why even bring up the subject of hierarchy?


I think it won't be too much to say that only the genuine students can decipher the true nature of the techniques. They are not just mechanical movements.

And that is why I commented, "I am sure you can attest to this as MOST OF YOU were left to dissect Tatang's methods..." As I stated earlier, I do absorb "mechanical movements". I focus on principles.

[Matt Lim]

May I ask what your end position is on your "family of frailes"?Usually, #10 or #11 thrust... but against body and leg attacks, it could be # 6 or #7 thrust.




And???? What is your point? Like I said, you were very fortunate to be a student of Tatang. Why even bring up the subject of hierarchy? At the luneta, you might find us fiercely arguing about techniques. Onlookers might see us as a hairline to jumping on each other but we're not, we're like brothers that we can afford to speak our minds without anyone feeling offended. We can argue because there is no hierarchy. It might be different to those who are not here in manila so I want It clear that we don't have any problem about hierarchy because we don't have it. My point is that I say my own expression or interpretation of techniques not as an assertion of authority but as a brother talking to another brother.

Salamat.

[JohnJ]

Usually, #10 or #11 thrust... but against body and leg attacks, it could be # 6 or #7 thrust.

Thanks for keeping the dialogue up but yet, I am still confused with some of the methods you describe. I always understood that fraile was mirrored from the a friars hand position and movement, hence a vertical motion which can end in 6,7,10 or 11. Can you explain how the principle is used against such a low-line attack as to the legs???? It could be that you are referring to what has been shared to some of us as crossada against the leg attacks which a follow up 7.


At the luneta, you might find us fiercely arguing about techniques. Onlookers might see us as a hairline to jumping on each other but we're not, we're like brothers that we can afford to speak our minds without anyone feeling offended. We can argue because there is no hierarchy. It might be different to those who are not here in manila so I want It clear that we don't have any problem about hierarchy because we don't have it. My point is that I say my own expression or interpretation of techniques not as an assertion of authority but as a brother talking to another brother.

It is not a perception that "we" here in the States have since we are training with some of those individuals who were there possibly with you. i.e. Topher

I guess I have been known to be very vocal. Possibly because there has been a surge of so-called or self-claimed KI players coming out of the woodworks. And I am not referring to you. Those out there know who they are and sometimes silence tends to make believers out of the ignorant ones. Therefore, I choose to speak up not as an authority but as a loyal stundet of the art. This is not an attempt to stir up politics but to honor Tatang and his art with more integrity.

[Matt Lim]

Thanks for keeping the dialogue up but yet, I am still confused with some of the methods you describe. I always understood that fraile was mirrored from the a friars hand position and movement, hence a vertical motion which can end in 6,7,10 or 11. Can you explain how the principle is used against such a low-line attack as to the legs???? It could be that you are referring to what has been shared to some of us as crossada against the leg attacks which a follow up 7.It's not cruzada, cruzada has its own distinct motion. If you know how to apply media fraile against #1 then the low media fraile is the mirror image against #3 or #8. The end thrust here is #7. The slicing cut-thrust is very distinctive of fraile.




It is not a perception that "we" here in the States have since we are training with some of those individuals who were there possibly with you. i.e. Topher That's good to know.


I guess I have been known to be very vocal. Possibly because there has been a surge of so-called or self-claimed KI players coming out of the woodworks. And I am not referring to you. Those out there know who they are and sometimes silence tends to make believers out of the ignorant ones. Therefore, I choose to speak up not as an authority but as a loyal stundet of the art. This is not an attempt to stir up politics but to honor Tatang and his art with more integrity.I know what you mean, integrity is such a lonely word.
Regards.

Salamat.

[PG Michael B]

No favorites....I dig it all....

[media]

PG Michael B, as you are doing seminars throughout the country, what technique/concept is easily grasped by the participants and what is the hardest to teach?

[PG Michael B]

In my honest opinion I would say that Praction is one of the concepts that the participants pick up quickly. As far as something difficult is concerned I would say Pluma....just for the manual dexterity needed not because it is overtly hard, also proper lutang footwork and it's many variances in correlation with the strikes.

The one thing I have found that hinders most peoples progression is lack of relaxation (I suffered from this as well)....it seems so many folks are worried about the destination as opposed to enjoying the journey. The key to learning is the ability to relax which allows for one to truly absorb the lesson at hand.

[media]

Is there any difference in the footwork of Bahad Zubu versus traditional KI?

[PG Michael B]

There is some...we use single carrera , doble carrera, hexagon (which entails the 6 steps), Lutang (with variance) and box stepping. BaHad Zu'Bu is a system where individual expression is applauded....we all have the same solid foundation but our homes will be a bit different due to the experience of the player and the abilities he or she may bring to BZ.

[media]

What role does your extensive experience in Silat and other southeast asian arts play in your personal Bahad Z. footwork?

[PG Michael B]

What role does your extensive experience in Silat and other southeast asian arts play in your personal Bahad ZuBu. footwork?

Kamusta ka na Steve......Footwork in my humble opinion is the key to FMA....it all starts from the ground up. What I have learned from the Silat I have trained is that the footwork blends same/same with the FMA or at least the FMA I have trained, where Eskrima may cut a sharper angle, Silat may step deeper etc.. what it does for my personal interpretation is thus; it gives me more options to play with, I am able to get inside my laboratory and put together very odd possibilities that some may disagree with but work for me.
Master Yuli is not a big proponent of cross stepping, but when he saw that I was doing it and very competent he realized that it was part of my personal interpretation due to the Silat I have trained, he told me that he doesn't like it but I use it very well without compromising my structure. My personal interpretation is very unorthodox to say the least but that is what makes BaHad Zu'Bu Eskrima such a fascinating system...Master Yuli encourages his people to express them self through the art, that way it never dies...like Maestro Yuli says " our structures are the same, but our houses MUST be different"....this way BaHad Zu'Bu grows and individuals become intuitive as opposed to carbon copies merely mimicking the head instructor.

The art must be absorbed to be truly yours....some are topical at best....

[Raul]

My favorite Ilustrisimo technique is the abanico.

[arnisador]

Do you do it in a particular way, or is it similar to how it's done in other FMAs?

[Raul]

Do you do it in a particular way, or is it similar to how it's done in other FMAs?
Other FMA's do it in such a way that if you replace the stick with blade, the flat of the blade will land instead of the edge and will stop in a certain range of the wrist. The ilustrisimo abanico is strictly blade oriented without the wrist restricting the range, always the blade chops, hacks, and slices, palm-up and palm-down, left-side to right-side of the opponent's body, high and low.

[sneaky]

Hi all,

My favorite KI tech is enganyo and lutang, watch Tatang move and you see them both again and again.

All the best,

Jim

[Raul]

For the Ilustrisimo players in the room.

What is you favorite Ilustrisimo technique and why?

(pls describe as terminology in Ilustrisimo is not universal also for our non-Ilustrisimo members).

I'll start.

Classico (Klassico)
- A defence against a mid or low level slash or thrust from the open ( albrieta) position. As the attack comes in, it is avoided using a retreating x-stance ( Ekais) and a strike to the incoming limb. When the attack passes (or is passed) the defender returns facing the oponent with the weapon occupying centre line ready to trust.

I like this move because I think it looks kewl.


Vince
aka Black Grass

Clasico is one of my fav too. And you're right, it looks so cool especially when done during a fast paced freeform contra por contra.

Another wicked technique is that one which looks like a mix of Cadena Real, Uyon and Clasico. Similar to Cadena Real's entrada but differs in its atraca and seguidas which is a hook, dig and slice.

[BayaniWarrior]

My favorite Illustrisimo technique has got to be Bagsak...the vertical dropping strike. It's use along with the Lutang footwork is as basic, simple, effective, and devestating as it gets. I've used this technique in real time against resisting opponents and it really works against nearly every means angle of attack.

-Mike

[Black Grass]

My favorite Illustrisimo technique has got to be Bagsak...the vertical dropping strike. It's use along with the Lutang footwork is as basic, simple, effective, and devestating as it gets. I've used this technique in real time against resisting opponents and it really works against nearly every means angle of attack.

-Mike

If I only had time to teach a limited number of techniques bagsak would be number one the other would be V-De Cadena-V. I have sparred and fought tourney's only using these two techniques and won.

Vince
aka Black Grass

[PG Michael B]

I love to blend the pluma entry into de cadena with a quick lutang ending with the # 5 thrust......Or the pluma to abaniko into a saplet. Hell, I dig it all..LOL

[Raul]

If I only had time to teach a limited number of techniques bagsak would be number one the other would be V-De Cadena-V. I have sparred and fought tourney's only using these two techniques and won.

Vince
aka Black Grass
There was a Lameco student who won three consecutive championships using only retirada and bagsak. Usually this is the first technique taught to students because its so easy to learn and can be applied right away.

[sneaky]

Saplet is sweet to be sure PG, that aboniko sure sounds like how I was taught Tatangs "rapidfire" attack.

My other fav when useing Bolo or baston is enganyo into high gate number 2 slash at head whilst dropping into low gate inside knee attack into a strong cross body clearing shot into high number 5 thrust or number 1 slash, that combo saves my can again and again as its an entry and defense all in one with options to create distance or finish with a power shot.

All the best,

Jim

[Raul]

To the two-count (block and strike) type of fighter, Sumbra and Cambiada are the techniques that serve them well. And of course, the next of kin Rapillon and Vertical for that type of fighters who barely blocks.

[PG Michael B]

To the two-count (block and strike) type of fighter, Sumbra and Cambiada are the techniques that serve them well. And of course, the next of kin Rapillon and Vertical for that type of fighters who barely blocks.

Very true Raul

..be both,.. be neither..simply be,.. use it all,.. use none,.. simply be,..simplicty,..intent,..simply be,..life,..death,..simply be

In the end it is in you..Simply Be!

[oosh]

enganyo #1 into De cadena and bagsak/aldabis :)

[eome]

media fraile,doblete and arko.

[Black Grass]

media fraile,doblete and arko.

Describe what you mean by Arko pls

Vince
aka Black Grass

[arnisador]

For arko, see also post #5 here (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=207).

[eome]

Vince, i put raul in explaining the techniques more clearer and accurate for all of us.Thanks arnisador for the post regarding arko.

[PG Michael B]

I have been working this combination as of late...

serrada position--float with horizontal cross cut--re-enter with bagsak---90 degree lutang into de cadena finishing with 7 or 11 thrust as I step drag to fully quarter the opponent.

The possibilities are endless!

[RETIRADA]

My favorite Ilustrisimo single stick/sword technique is the Arko Media Planchada (also called Planchada Doblete) with lutang or retirada footwork.

Regards,

Louie

[CincoTeros]

For those who who like to see some Bahad Zubu footage may want to check out the following:

Taken in Manila and Valenzuela, Philippines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guqb5XUlDD8

Master Yuli in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPxwznphGxM

The young one is Master Yuli son. He was hitting the sticks at the tips which represents fingertips--very nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dl3AY2O_Vg

[krugman]

V,decadena,v.Excuse my ignorance if I have expressed this improperly,fairly new at this.I like the simplicity,footwork.Influenced by my instructor,of course ,who is very fond of this technique.If I have 30-40 minutes to squeeze in some FMA practice ,this will be foremost.

[RETIRADA]

Thanks Krugman. If I may ask...is there a Ilustrisimo group in Halifax, NS ?

[Black Grass]

Yes, I am actually based in Halifax, we fall under Master Topher Rickett's Kali Ilustrisimo USA banner as well as Master Rey Galang Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo.

Vince

[RETIRADA]

Hi Vince,

That's great that you have a KI group in Halifax. I know both Master Topher and Master Rey.

They are great mentors. I used to teach a small group in Milton, NS...maybe you can touch base with them and see if they have interest in KI. I did a Silat seminar for them some 15 years ago.

Ingat.

Louie

[Sicilian]

Boca de Lobo. Ang angas eh. :EvilGrin:

[Raul]

I like Ligis which can be applied with or without weapons. Mang Romy is a master of Ligis.

[Sicilian]

Will ask Tito Romy on Thursday about that. Thanks dude.

[RETIRADA]

Hi Raul,

What is involved in the practice of 'ligis' ?

Salamat.

Louie

[kali-rand]

Fraile, outside fighting or defending. Striking the hand wrist or finger areas.... to enter the head , shoulders and, elbow areas for your complete killing blows. aloha.

[Raul]

Hi Raul,

What is involved in the practice of 'ligis' ?

Salamat.

Louie
It involves the use of hand and forearm to manipulate your opponent to facilitate jointlocks, crank, wrenches, disarms, traps and takedowns. Those who practice jujitsu, chin na and maybe silat will find affinity between their methods and ligis. Ligis lends itself best against adversaries who like to use brute force in close range.

[Raul]

Will ask Tito Romy on Thursday about that. Thanks dude.
You should see mang Romy's applications of Pluma if you haven't seen them yet. He's a wonder to behold.

[Sicilian]

Oh yeah. Had a taste of Ligis. Didn't know that was the term. I tried grappling with him empty hands (I'm a blue belt in BJJ). Didn't get to take him down. I got manipulated like crazy. hehehe

Re the Pluma. I was 1st taught the formal version. But he also showed me 3 variations. 1 of which is Media Pluma.

[pluma]

fav technique. all of them.. deadly stuff!!!

Yeah romy master of ligis yan! hehehe

[RETIRADA]

It involves the use of hand and forearm to manipulate your opponent to facilitate jointlocks, crank, wrenches, disarms, traps and takedowns. Those who practice jujitsu, chin na and maybe silat will find affinity between their methods and ligis. Ligis lends itself best against adversaries who like to use brute force in close range.

Thanks Raul. We have similar methods in my practice of Silat. Aside from KI, I used to train a lot in Silat about 20 years ago.

[eome]

Everything we do in the sayaw.

[Djay]

I like the Classico Technique and also like another combination of strikes one of Mang Tony's students showed me: Bagsak to the arm on a strike from the abierta side, redonda, aldabis then bagsak to the head.

[Black Grass]

Djay,

Sounds like you are describing what Mang Tups describe as V-De Cadena-V. I feel it is one of the most versatile combinations, personal favorite.

Vince

[Djay]

Vince,


Yes, I find it very fluid the striking is very fluid as one strike sets up another.

[Djay]

I also like the pluma off of a trust into a doblete or bagsak.

[Sicilian]

It involves the use of hand and forearm to manipulate your opponent to facilitate jointlocks, crank, wrenches, disarms, traps and takedowns. Those who practice jujitsu, chin na and maybe silat will find affinity between their methods and ligis. Ligis lends itself best against adversaries who like to use brute force in close range.

Bro. A KI guy just utilized ligis in a BJJ tournament and won Silver in the no-gi division and Gold in the Gi Division.

He used elements of ligis to set up an Americana and a Kimura from side control. Wow!

[RETIRADA]

Due to constraints of time, what we usually do is train the basic strikes with the various footwork, then work 2 - 3 or more count combinations (amarra). We work primarily on single weapon, thus, training left and right sides is highly recommended.

I usually teach a set of combinations (1-9 and 10-18) then when the student work on their own time, they would work on their own combinations (amarra) with footwork.

We work on a core of 9 counterstrikes and an optional of another set of 9.

Then they try to apply it in sparring and see which combination works for them.

[Raul]

Bro. A KI guy just utilized ligis in a BJJ tournament and won Silver in the no-gi division and Gold in the Gi Division.

He used elements of ligis to set up an Americana and a Kimura from side control. Wow!
No doubt!

[Raul]

Salto! The sneaky and wicked salto!

[Sicilian]

I believe I got hit by the salto more than I could remember. Ouch!!!