Most likely opponent we'll face

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

When i share self defense concepts with others, i always convey to them that a lot of men have been (or are presently) trained in some sort of physical conditioning and techniques that can be used against us... in particular, Wrestling and Football...

I assume that almost all high schools that has boys has a wrestling and football program where they learn how to take people down quick... so, these people are the most likely opponents to deal with in an empty hand situation...so, i guess, there are A LOT of people who have played Football and competed in Wrestling! and don't forget those YMCA and GOLDEN GLOVES BOXING GYMS!!!!!!

i also assume that in terms of weapons, the police, security and military personnel are the most likely "trained" people we'll face other than criminals of course... please check out this very interesting site to see the general outline of their stick work:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/19-15/CH10.htm

i'd like to ask everyone if you train "most likely" or "most common" situations in an integrated, or separated manner in relation to our beloved art

thanks and hope to hear from you soon!

Cap

p.s. i also heard/read (http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3305&sid=48c5c8c944f48314dc77a0abe56e12ff) that people in correctional facilities are watching UFC/PRIDE and are practicing those moves on each other... and the scary thing is, Criminals GET OUT!!!!!

[Ron B]

good question.because of the popularity of martial arts over the past few years there is alot more knowledge out there on martial arts then ever before.I am 37 years old and when I grew up the only martial arts out there in small and medium sized cities would be karate and judo.boxing and wrestling were also taught but were not thought as martial arts thank God that has changed.now there are alot more arts being taught out there.before the UFC the arts that were being shown on TV was mainly what you seen in movies and boxing with alittle kickboxing shown in the late 80's.now you can watch UFC fights on spike tv or tune in like I will tomorrow to watch UFC 59 on pay per view.since cable tv is offered in some prisons inmates can and will watch the fights as well.
who would be your most likely opponent well that depends on where you live,work and hang out.if you are in law enforcement the threats will come where you are at work.the can also come outside work as well for retribution.jail guards and police are targeted off their job.main threat to them would be the criminal element.if you hang out in alot of bars the threat can be where you are hanging out.add drugs and alcohol and you can see people at their worst.if you live in a bad crime area the threat can come from where you live.one of the most important thing to learn in self defence training is awareness.know the area and environment at all times.if you live in a high crime area know what gangs operate in the area and how to watch out and avoid them.another part of self defence training is avoidance.stay out of trouble if you can.the training group that I train with we train that either you are going to fight to escape or to dominate the ground that you are on.most of the time you are fighting to escape. if you cannot escape you have to fight to dominate the ground that you are on and inflict as much damage as you have to do to escape.the reason I mention this is that is how we train in the senario training that we do.I believe that people train in martial arts for 3 reasons
for self protection,as a form of exercise or fun physical activity or as an art form like someone would study painting ect.I believe you study the martial arts for all of those 3 reasons but you will emphasize on of the reasons.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Great Pot Ron! (If i may call you that of course!)

Yes i agree with you that Awarness, Intuition and Avoidance and knowledge are the most important things in terms of self defense... I share with my group how to recognize and use those concepts thru our situational trainings...

there seems to be a lot of just showing the techniques when presented the threat (punch, headlock, knife, stick, sword etc) and not relating on how to observe and avoid those same threats in the traditional sense...

if we can avoid those situations by awareness, and de-escalation, then that seems to be the ultimate goal of martial arts and self defense...

Cap

[Ron B]

hi Cap yup call me Ron as it is my first name.B is the first initial in my last name not too much originality in my handle.another thing I believe people miss out on the training is that they just focus on the physical part of the threat.people are composed of a body mind and spirit.when we are attacked we are being attacked on all 3 levels.the fight did not start when we were grabbed or hit it started when someone made the decision in their mind to attack that is when the attack happened that is why training on awareness and avoidance is so important.also being able to use all that is around you is very important.that is why I like the FMA as they teach weapons use.being able to adapt and use items around us is a very important skill one that we can learn from FMA.

[platypus]

Where I live (Hawaii), you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone who's trained in BJJ or some other MMA form.

[geezer]

Where I live (Hawaii), you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone who's trained in BJJ or some other MMA form.
Talk about using improvised weapons! My wife is an artist who collects all kinds of stuff to make into mixed media sculpture. Once we had a dead road-kill cat in our freezer. Man it would have hurt to get hit with that. I never would have thought of use it against MMA fighters, though.

[PG Michael B]

There is an axiom that I follow and pass on to all my students and to others whom will listen. In a combat situation I always assume the following;

1. He is bigger than me
2. Faster than me
3. Stronger than me
4. He has more skill than me

By following this axiom I never underestimate anyone, on the contrary I perceive everyone as a potential life ending threat and prepare myself in kind. Far to many times have I seen people underestimate or take someone lightly due to many reasons and end up getting their asses handed to them in spades.

Having worked as a bouncer in some very dangerous joints and also having worked security and body guarding certain individuals I have come to the conclusion that more people than one will realize has greenbelt itis. Greenbelt itis is quite common, individuals who know just enough to do damage to another individual with their mediocre skills and their screwy attitudes. This fueled by alcohol or meth, crack, skag, or God only knows what else is a dangerous concoction to be sure.

The availability of weaponry also is a problem especially when the aforementioned individuals can easily obtain such tools of destruction. Here in South Texas we live in a blade culture. There is not a day that goes by where someone here in San Antonio isn't getting shanked into oblivion. It isn't uncommon to have family members go at it with blades or guns, and it is even more likely to be alcohol induced. We also have the influx of a huge gang population here, the Mexican mafia , Bandidos MC, Latin Kings, Bloods and now the dreaded MS-13 all are prevalent, not to mention every little peewee who plays wannabe (sometimes more dangerous than actual members) and all seem to favor blades. This problem is one that cannot be ignored. These individuals also are skilled, they learn in prison, they learn from doing, hell half of these guys fight in the street daily so they are prepared for whatever. These types also have the rat pack mentality, they will come in sets to do their work. If they see something or someone they want to take out or rob etc. they are more than likely going to come in a wave and do their work, so it is imperative to teach you people mental awareness, physical awareness and definitelly how to deal with multiples and how to use the environment to take care of themselves.

To my guys I preach this till I am blue in the face. I try to make it simple direct and violent. I tell them that they should also learn the tactical usage of firearms as well as hardening their hearts when the shite hits. I also tell them to keep, in shape because there is nothing wrong with running...it is a tactical method that can work in your favor especially if being pursued by 3 or 4...string them out turn it into 3 or 4 one on ones as opposed to one setting of 4 on 1.

In the end it is up to YOU to keep you and yours safe...I do not wait nor do I expect the police to get there and save my ass..in my city the average response time to a disturbance is 14 minutes, a lifetime if your ass is getting obliterated by some ding dong and his pack of A-Holes. Handle your business, don't look for it, but when it comes handle it in spades...NO quarter asked NONE given. Go ugly early and win!

Salamat

[krugman]

Very well said,PGMB,you have summarized things nicely!

[arnisador]

I agree. I train for a 250 lb. drunken, angry biker. Why bother, otherwise?

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Wow, i'm glad this old post of mine has recently been bumped up and still discussed!... glad i could post something interesting!.. heheh..

anyway, i'm so very much in agreement with you all... it goes to show me intelligent and forward thinking people who love to share are prevalent in FMAtalk... glad to be part of it!

i would also like to emphasize PG Michael's post regarding his axioms above--great stuff!..

I also relate to my students/friends to not assume things in general, but in a self defense situation we must assume these:

Your opponent is better than you
Your opponent is ARMED (blunt, edged, projectile, chemical)
Your opponent will go all the way to kill you
Your opponent has friends who'll hurt you(these four points are directly taken from www.senshido.com (http://www.senshido.com))

Keep safe!

Capt.

[Armorer]

Hi there Captain Jack.
The only person I ever had to fight who was actually trying to kill me was more like a 280 lb drug dealers body guard who was more than twice my size. I noticed while fighting him that he simply assumed no blow that I hit him with would cause him any harm. He also incorrectly decided that if were close in on me it would make the weapon I grabbed to defend myself ineffective. It just so happened however that I prefer to fight in a close in style.
The bottom line was that an over confident drugged out person who is all offense and zero defense is still no match for a person who can both attack and defend at the same time.

Incidentally since your talking about statistics there are probably a lot more SCA trained stick fighters around in the states than there are FMA schooled fighters.
As far as this police stick training goes it looks very basic from what I saw in the training diagram pointed out on this thread.

I bet most any SCA trained stick fighter could easily beat a cop in a fair fight armed with the same stick if he had to. In fact even if the cop was a larger person the SCA trained fighter would still probably be the one still standing at the end of the fight.
I don't think the average football player is going to know much of anything about how to fight. I was attacked by a football player in high school who was much larger than myself and I simply knocked him off balance. After that he left me alone.
No part of my high school PE classes included martial arts nor was there an option to do so. In my high school Football players were treated like heroes while people who wanted to learn martial arts like myself were treated like dirt.
As you can tell I'm no football fan.

[geezer]

Interesting input from the SCA angle. A few members of our escrima group are heavily into the SCA, and sometimes we train at a local park where the SCA meet. One of our guys who is also an SCA-er is switching from being a "spearman" to a "florentine" or double-sword stylist after some training in escrima double stick style. Personally, I think he ought to train a little more before testing his FMA skills. We'll see. Some of those SCA guys are big boys, and I'd definately call them "martial artists". I've met a couple who ARE cops and a fair number who DID play football, and also some other FMA stylists in the mix. It's probably best not to make assumptions about people...they might surprise you.

[Armorer]

Your right that it's probably best not to make assumptions however I was referring to the average and not all. Although I consider myself SCA trained to a certain extent I don't call myself an SCA fighter per say.
I'm actually no longer involved in the SCA as I felt I was no longer welcome sparring with those people.
The problem was that the SCA people want to assume the people at their practice are there to win at their tournaments or be a so called "medieval recreator" instead of being there just to learn martial arts skills.
I personally don't agree that the SCA people even use the term "recreate" properly.
The SCA sparing rules allow certain types of martial arts skills to be learned while other skills of the same nature are discouraged for no good reason.

I decided instead to look into the local WMA groups in the bay area but found their sparring rules and equipment to be even less logical than those of the SCA.

At this time I'm looking into FMA to see if it is where I can progress since I don't feel the WMA or the SCA are quite correct in the way they go about things.

[Ryno]

Train for the worst, and don't make assumptions. I discourage my training partners from standing toe to toe and trying to trade blows and outhit someone when stickfighting. Why? Because I used to play football, and also do Judo. If you are outhitting someone, but don't put them down quickly, they will either run away, or tackle you.

Some people are very thick skulled and tough to knock out. Make your shots count, and don't assume he'll stand there for you to flurry off a long and intricate combo. Just in case you don't put him down immediately, be sure to angle off so that you're not as easy to take down. If you stand head up with him, you're in easy range for a double leg takedown.

Keep in mind that a self defense situation is not a stick duel. Your opponent will not be playing by WEKAF rules. They will fall back on what they know, which very well may mean football or wrestling tactics. Many talented stickfighters seem to forget this sometimes, and it's a shame that they get so wrapped up in their own style that they can forget what actual combat really entails.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Train for the worst, and don't make assumptions. I discourage my training partners from standing toe to toe and trying to trade blows and outhit someone when stickfighting. Why? Because I used to play football, and also do Judo. If you are outhitting someone, but don't put them down quickly, they will either run away, or tackle you.

Some people are very thick skulled and tough to knock out. Make your shots count, and don't assume he'll stand there for you to flurry off a long and intricate combo. Just in case you don't put him down immediately, be sure to angle off so that you're not as easy to take down. If you stand head up with him, you're in easy range for a double leg takedown.

Keep in mind that a self defense situation is not a stick duel. Your opponent will not be playing by WEKAF rules. They will fall back on what they know, which very well may mean football or wrestling tactics. Many talented stickfighters seem to forget this sometimes, and it's a shame that they get so wrapped up in their own style that they can forget what actual combat really entails.


Very true. I tell everyone that HUMANS are very tough and resilient. There are those who can take punch after punch after punch and still keep going--even without drugs! Humans are also PROBLEM SOLVERS and will figure things out. Like Ryno says, "make your every shot count" and keep thinking!

Train right.

Cpt.

[Armorer]

When you say some people are thick-sculled Ryno you are not exaggerating. The bodyguard who attacked me took many direct hits in his head before dropping. Incidentally I found the SCA " Wrap" shot can in fact be done quite effectively from a prone position. I found this out while my attacker was trying to bash my head into the pavement after tackling me just as you say. I had no choice however but to trade blows toe to toe since I was pinned against the door of my car. What you say is true however. Hit hard.

[animal_stylez]

Train for the worst, and don't make assumptions. I discourage my training partners from standing toe to toe and trying to trade blows and outhit someone when stickfighting. Why? Because I used to play football, and also do Judo. If you are outhitting someone, but don't put them down quickly, they will either run away, or tackle you.

Some people are very thick skulled and tough to knock out. Make your shots count, and don't assume he'll stand there for you to flurry off a long and intricate combo. Just in case you don't put him down immediately, be sure to angle off so that you're not as easy to take down. If you stand head up with him, you're in easy range for a double leg takedown.

Keep in mind that a self defense situation is not a stick duel. Your opponent will not be playing by WEKAF rules. They will fall back on what they know, which very well may mean football or wrestling tactics. Many talented stickfighters seem to forget this sometimes, and it's a shame that they get so wrapped up in their own style that they can forget what actual combat really entails.

Ryno, I agree with what you say. If you watch a lot of the tournament fights, they are very much straight toe-to-toe fighting with each other "whacking" each other as hard as they can with very little movement side to side. Not all fights are like this, but most. I think it's just natural for people to get "tunnel" visioned when fighting and try to use brut force on someone, even with a ton of padding on.

And as you mentioned to, its natural for people to just tackle. If you look at young kids fighting, they end up swinging wildly and then rushing the other person, tackling them and taking them down, a natural instinct. Even more so for those who played football and/or who wrestled in High School, or even just for fun. I never played organized football, but I played in weekly pickup games for years, from Jr. High to well after HS. There are a LOT of "EX" football players and wrestlers out there, so the odd's of encountering someone like this is greater than people think. Because of my experience with football, I have to say it becomes part of my instincts, when sparring, to want to rush and tackle someone hard if they are just standing there.