Filipino blade history to present time info...

[Ron Kosakowski]

Now this is based on knowledge i have acquired during my Philippine trips. It is also based on my observations. At this point in my life, I have been there enough times to come to these conclusions.

A lot of the blades that I have on the TFW web site are very rare. We found some of them from some old men on whatever island in the Philippines, others were in my friends family tribe handed down through generations. Others were located in museums in the Philippines. I found some here in the Museum of Natural History but I have all the ones they showed there already on the site.

The ones that I noticed that are common carry in the Philippines today are the Pinute and the Ginunting. Those are common in the Visyan area. Though the Pinute is popular ALL over the Philippines it seems like. The Itak Tagalog http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Itak%20Tagalog.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Itak%20Tagalog.html) is more popular in some parts of the north...which is really a Pinute with a subtle design change.

I actually saw a few people in the south with Kris swords. That freaked me out to see something like that today. It was not common to see...plus think about it, the Kris does not double as a tool. Made me wonder how much blood was on those Kris swords.

In the North, it was common to see the Golok http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Golok.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Golok.html) The word Golok is common in Indonesia. But that makes sense since Bagiuo region are a result of the early Indonesian travelers who caught a wind that brought them to the north. I was told they were going to the Southern Philippines and caught a wind that brought them further north. My friend looks very Indonesian actually and so do many of the people of that area.

I have seen a few Karambits but I think it is more the style in modern day that catches their eye. Again, that is an Indonesian influence. There is another type of Karambit, and dam I can't think of what it is called. Its ugly, it does not have that ring at the end of it...it has just a common handle...but it is deadly. Definately not a tool. I will be having that one soon also. I am not sure of the history of it right now but its common in the northern region. My gues is that it is also an Indonesian influence due to the looks of it.

The War Golok http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/WarGolok.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/WarGolok.html) is actually another northern design...a design that is a result of the Spanish breaking the tips of the Sword of the Filipinos. The Filipinos were very good at thrust and slash action with their swords. The Spanish were intimidated by this during a lot of rebellion that was going on at the time so Spanish soldiers were ordered to take all the swords of the Filipinos and break off the tips of their swords. If anyone was seen with a tip, they were killed. Every one had to follow that law or suffer the consequences. I am not sure if this was just in one region though it seems like this blade was popular in the Luzon area. All their blades had to be forged with a flat top, though a newer fighting method of making it a little heavier and gaining a new hacking style of fighting still made it a formidable weapon. I have a War Golok that is very old...it has killed 5 different people. The 5 people were burned and the ashes were put on the sheath to keep the spirits of the warrior power in that blade. It is a priceless gift to me. You can literally smell the death on this sheath and blade. If you guys ever make it to my school, I will show it to you. I was told not to let anyone touch it so you will not be able to touch it. It disrupts the spirit balance of the blade. And i may have to use it some day. :p:

The Espada Y Daga is not a common blade to see carried today but it is VERY popular. I think it is kept alive through Kali, Arnis and Eskrima. It is popular in San Miguel, Illustisimo and Pekiti Tirsia...I am sure many others as well.

The Garab sword http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/GarabSword.htm (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/GarabSword.htm) is another one you see that is still carried today. The Garab knife http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/GarabKnife.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/GarabKnife.html) is a very popular design there. It is a good tool for coconuts and cutting of about everything that is done there in the Philippines. And it is definitely a formidable weapon. I like that knife. I have seen that all over the Visayan area and all over the south. I have seen many people on the side of the road using it.

The Iron Wood sticks are still carried as a self defense weapon. In the more civilized areas, you can still get prison time for slicing up a person like anywhere else now a days (not that it does not happen), so Iron wood seems to make a good self defense weapon. I have heard that some tribal arguments are fought with them. One hit with one of them http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/GiroIronwoodSticks.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/GiroIronwoodSticks.html) and you will break or die. Its not like fighting with rattan where you can show off your bruises after a good fight or two.

The Pakal knives are a combat weapon made for exactly that, to be held in pakal position (ice-pick, earth position) comfortably. Those are pretty much designs of my friends tribe. You can see those on http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/PakalKnife2.html, (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/PakalKnife2.html,) http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/PakalKnife3.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/PakalKnife3.html) and http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/PakalKnife1.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/PakalKnife1.html) You can feel a big difference from a knife designed for that position in comparison to one that isn't. Very practical and they feel great in the hand(s).

The Balisong is still a popular carry. All the Special Action Force Commandos and the Marines all had Balisongs. I found that amazing. I feel it is a good knife but there are simpler ones to carry. In Batangas, you can see the tourist versions of Balisongs all over the place for sale. To me they are crap but then again, I am spoiled by good quality. :p:

Pretty much, all the others on the TFW site are extinct today. Like I said, we had to seek them out and bring them back to life again.

All cultures were once blade oriented cultures. they had to be or you would not exist today. All our ancestors had to fight with the blade at one time or another for whatever reason. The blade cultures are pretty well dead now. that is due to firearms. You pull out a blade, you get blown away. So to keep up with the Jonses, every one got a firearm. The reason it is still alive in the Philippines and other parts of SE Asia because those people depend on them as tools. they use them for everything they make, crops, etc.. Many of them are poor people who cannot afford modern tools (or a gun for that matter), they were brought up with the blade as a tool so they are used to it. In turn, you will see an occasional hacking up of a body or two when some drinking is going on or some one wronged another and revenge takes place.

I hope you liked this information. Let me know your thoughts or if you have anything to add here.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Wow, I am surprised there is no responce to this. I racked my agile mind to write this up.http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[excalibur]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/206-iag30.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/philippines.swords.htm&usg=___mcrXEfCW9NwCjao-C7lsfANUQI=&h=380&w=1200&sz=18&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=espKszrFXVxW4M:&tbnh=48&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfilipino%2Bwarriors%2Bduring%2Bthe%2B spanish%2Bcolonials%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1

Just to add more info on your research about the Filipino Weapons.

[Ron Kosakowski]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/206-iag30.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/philippines.swords.htm&usg=___mcrXEfCW9NwCjao-C7lsfANUQI=&h=380&w=1200&sz=18&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=espKszrFXVxW4M:&tbnh=48&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfilipino%2Bwarriors%2Bduring%2Bthe%2B spanish%2Bcolonials%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1

Just to add more info on your research about the Filipino Weapons.
Wow, so many toys out there. Thats a nice find. I am surprised I never saw that site before. I have a lot of antiques myself. Every trip to the Philippines, i come back with at least one. You can sit and imagine how they were used at one time.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Check this out...here are some professional pictures taken. Just click on the links below to see some eye candy pictures up close:
http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Bankgon-Gayang-Lahot%20Detail.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Bankgon-Gayang-Lahot%20Detail.html)
http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Sansibar%20Blade%20Art.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Sansibar%20Blade%20Art.html)
http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/KnifeArt.html (http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/KnifeArt.html)

Dave Everett took those pics. He has quite a love for bladed weapons so he can turn pictures easily enough into art.

Opinions anyone?

[arnisador]

Nice looking stuff! The close-up pictures are good for seeing the detail in the grips and scabbards.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Nice looking stuff! The close-up pictures are good for seeing the detail in the grips and scabbards.
Thank you. They are a work of art. I felt before that a few pictures did not give them any justice. Now with these up close and personal shot, everyone can now see all the details. I get a lot of e-mails just complimenting the pictures.

[mabagani]

Opinions anyone?
imo this thread belongs under advertising / product news, or I'd suggest side by side comparisons with real examples, since its a thread about history

[blindside]

Opinions anyone?

Hi Ron,

Do you have any of the historical examples that you have based these designs off of? I don't think anyone would say that the ginunting that is being produced now by either you or most other manufacturers is a "traditional" design. It may be ideal for the present day task, but they are neither traditional nor historical.

If we are going to talk about the actual history of the blades it would be useful to have historical examples. Frequently within your designs I see elements that appear ahistorical, so it would useful to have a good reference point.

The belt clip/retaining device is certainly not a historical design, nor have I see the use of grip "stippling" for lack of a better word.

Lamont

[sjansen]

I would like to see historical examples with those currently made as well. However, I have seen no proof that they are not true representations of historical examples. Does anyone in the previous examples have proof that they are not true in their representation? There were no links or proof provided. I would like to know either way with some actual proof provided.

[arnisador]

That would require a sword expert to examine them in person, wouldn't it?

[Labantayo]

There are many Philippine sword experts here on this board, but their opinions are ignored or dismissed as wrong by the supposed commercial sword expert here.
I can guarantee you that he has no idea what most of his swords looked like in their antique form. He says he has examples and we have asked him to post pics of them, but that has yet to happen. Most of the names of his swords are also not correct. Pira Cotabato??? Give me an effin break.
We have asked that if he can prove his swords are correct contemporary recreations of the antique ones, we would leave him alone. We have yet to see these antique examples.

They are all fantasy interpretations of some real and some not so real swords of the Philippines.

[R. Mike Snow]

Wow, did I hear someone say Ginunting and Pira? Two of my favorite weapons, now we are talking my kind of language!

Thank you very much for sharing some of your knowledge with us Labantayo. It is an honor to have gentlemen like Zelbone, Spunger, MoringStar, and Dr. Sandata(Jonathan) on this forum.

Just to be very clear, these are the type of people that the Indiana University Department of Anthropology submit questions to. I have had the privilege to see and handle just a few of these gentlemen's fine museum pieces, eloquently displayed in the their Senjata and Sandata armories. Blades so eloquent, well fitted and fuctional a Japanese and Arabic sowrd collector would be envious. The gentlemen put our national museums to shame when it cames to Sandata. If you actually take then time to become acquainted with these gentlemen, you will find that they know the forging processes, materials, meaning of the symbols, evolution, cultures, history, systems and techniques used for each and every blade. And of course each has their specialty as well. I have exchanged information with them in the past and all of which can be verified through others and documentation. Needless to say has been 99.9% a learning experience of my behalf. They all hold their cultures in the highest regard and work fervently devoting their lives to preserve their heritage accurately and to pinpoint detail. Which is why they ask a lot of questions them selves.

I have the utmost respect for you engaging on a quest for knowledge Ron, but you are misleading the masses. Instead of standing corrected, which I my self have done so in the past at the beginning of my journey and it is just part of the never ending learning process. You still have not answered the question submitted to you on the Kuntaw Knife Throwing thread. As for your Ginunting, not the talim, puluhan nor kaluban look anything like that of my Gininting collection, antique or modern.

[arnisador]

we would leave him alone.

That sounds like a good idea.


They are all fantasy interpretations of some real and some not so real swords of the Philippines.

Pointing out that that's your opinion is one thing. Continually harping on it (*not directed at you in particular*) is getting tiring.

[Labantayo]

All we ask is to see the specimens used to make the recreations.
The swords being commercially sold are inaccurate in form and overall design. If they were indeed made by copying an antique sample, we would like to see it. Also, there are swords by the same seller that really suspect in being a true Filipino weapon historically.
Pictures of his antique versions are all we have ever asked for.

[mabagani]

I would like to see historical examples with those currently made as well. However, I have seen no proof that they are not true representations of historical examples. Does anyone in the previous examples have proof that they are not true in their representation? There were no links or proof provided. I would like to know either way with some actual proof provided.

Its been shown that many of the modern reproductions are not made at their place of origin, therefore examples do not necessarily follow historical forms from each of the different regions they represent because they are not made by the same inherent tribal groups and there is the obvious broken connection to their past.
If all swords are made by one maker in one location of the Philippines, its reproductions from the different regions could not have historical value, they are copies and not true historical representations. In this circumstance, it does not take an expert to know the differences between historical and ahistorical.
Whether the copies follow historical form or fantasy is another question, and either way they couldn't be considered historical if they are not from the places from which they originated. Evidently, experts can show the differences between real traditional forms and errors made in modern reproductions, but it'd be tiring and negative tasks. In the interest of history and for people who want to study the old real weaponry it'd be forthright to replace the commercial examples with images of real antiques or as mentioned just move the thread over to the advertisement forum. With all due respect, this has nothing to do with politics or some conspiracy by a few members, its historical correctness, which I'd expect most people to stand up for.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Hi Ron,

Do you have any of the historical examples that you have based these designs off of? I don't think anyone would say that the ginunting that is being produced now by either you or most other manufacturers is a "traditional" design. It may be ideal for the present day task, but they are neither traditional nor historical.


The belt clip/retaining device is certainly not a historical design, nor have I see the use of grip "stippling" for lack of a better word.

Lamont
I have many antiques at my school. All of which do look like some of the blades I have here on the TFW site. I don't have all 50 different weapons so I cannot help you there...at least not from my school.

As for the clips, those are modified in a modern way for a reason. Bringing a tropical grown wood here to the US where most of us have 4 season, I noticed some shrinkage and warping on a few of the sheathes. To fix that problem before it started happening to more than just a few, we needed to modify the sheaths a little bit. Not on all of them but some. In fact, we will be using a different more expensive hard wood, maybe Kamagong for some of the sheaths soon do to some problems I found happening. Replacing peoples weapons gets expensive so I have to modify the sheaths. However, they are still traditional weapons from the Philippines.

As for the historical proof. Believe me, this was a lot of work on my friends and me. My friend had many of these weapons within his family...the blades of the north anyway. If you go to http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Sandata.html you will see that we have seperated the catagorys of north, south,, etc. The ceremonial knives for example...as a gift, they gave me the originals which are so old, they are rusty and have no wooden handles on them. I plan on putting them behind glass to display at my school as they are. To me, even though they are old loooking like that, it has meaning and also look artful.

The rest of the weapons we got from old men from whatever island. Sometimes the blades were borrowed, sometimes they were bought from these old timers who just so happen to still have a family heirloom hanging around.
Museums in the Philippines played an important part in getting actual measurements and some historical info on them. So as you can see, we did not pull them out of our heads and make fantasy blades. Most people did not see many of these designs because they have been dead for a 100 or more years. Many of these you cannot find on the internet for the same reason. Our goal is to bring back a piece of history that has almost become extinct.


If we are going to talk about the actual history of the blades it would be useful to have historical examples. Frequently within your designs I see elements that appear ahistorical, so it would useful to have a good reference point.

First off, where is your proof that they are not historically accurate outside some clips to hold them in place? I understand that a true historian has to have written proof of historical facts. the problem with the Philippines is a few things against having written records just hanging around in some areas of lesser importance. Number one, outside influences changed that area a few times a little bit in culture and religion. We all know that already. The Spanish had destroyed all written anything due to the thought that the ancient sanscrit looking writings were the writings of the devil. Everything else that survived rotted in the tropical weather. Steel does the same thing. Look at the word Kali...many do not believe the word Kali is a valid pre-Spanish term. But, where did Yambao get the word to put it in his book in 1957? That debate dies right there actually due to no written records and the use of Spanish wording.

The only way for me to give proof is to bring you around to museums in the Philippines. Or come to my school and see some of the antiques I have on the walls. I have old Philippine combat axes that were made of jaw bones of big animals. We guesstimate they are 200 to 300 years old or more. No one has them on the web. I can't find those particular items anywhere.

Anyway, I understand the controvercy or at least wondering if they are really historically accurate or not. I can assure you they are. And a lotta work went into making sure of that. There is more to what we do in TFW than just a website with blades for sale. There is a bigger picture.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Wow, did I hear someone say Ginunting and Pira? Two of my favorite weapons, now we are talking my kind of language!

Thank you very much for sharing some of your knowledge with us Labantayo. It is an honor to have gentlemen like Zelbone, Spunger, MoringStar, and Dr. Sandata(Jonathan) on this forum.

Just to be very clear, these are the type of people that the Indiana University Department of Anthropology submit questions to. I have had the privilege to see and handle just a few of these gentlemen's fine museum pieces, eloquently displayed in the their Senjata and Sandata armories. Blades so eloquent, well fitted and fuctional a Japanese and Arabic sowrd collector would be envious. The gentlemen put our national museums to shame when it cames to Sandata. If you actually take then time to become acquainted with these gentlemen, you will find that they know the forging processes, materials, meaning of the symbols, evolution, cultures, history, systems and techniques used for each and every blade. And of course each has their specialty as well. I have exchanged information with them in the past and all of which can be verified through others and documentation. Needless to say has been 99.9% a learning experience of my behalf. They all hold their cultures in the highest regard and work fervently devoting their lives to preserve their heritage accurately and to pinpoint detail. Which is why they ask a lot of questions them selves.

I have the utmost respect for you engaging on a quest for knowledge Ron, but you are misleading the masses. Instead of standing corrected, which I my self have done so in the past at the beginning of my journey and it is just part of the never ending learning process. You still have not answered the question submitted to you on the Kuntaw Knife Throwing thread. As for your Ginunting, not the talim, puluhan nor kaluban look anything like that of my Gininting collection, antique or modern.
What question did I not answer in the Kuntao knife thread? Though, start a new thread for that because I do not want to get into that. I have been involved with the real elders and still am so really, opinions here do not mean anything to me on Kuntao.

As for the Ginunting, its funny that I have seen the same exact look. GT Leo Gaje has the same exact looking Ginunting that is an older version. If I remember correctly, Nene has one that looks pretty much the same. Is the Gaje/Tortel family not accurate in their design? It is where we based our design from. Its the same design base that Sgt Prado uses, who also sells Ginuntings online and in the Philippines.

I can tell you this also, I have seen say the Pinute all over the Philippines...probably one of the most popular designs. Most use the term, "pinute" also. However, I have also seen that same pinute with some subtle design changes. Making blades is artwork. Each artist is going to give their design twist to it making it their signature design. So if you see a blade I have that does not look exactly like mine, that may be due to the design the artist took at the time. Like I said above, these designs are based on museum peices.

I am NOT misleading the public in any way at all. And would not. I am always willing to learn more of course and I will say I don't know if I do not. I have no problem with that. I never claimed to be an expert. I claimed to have some knowledge in the history, culture and a lot of knowledge in the fighting arts of the Philippines. Its what i like!

[Labantayo]

I have many antiques at my school. All of which do look like some of the blades I have here on the TFW site. I don't have all 50 different weapons so I cannot help you there...at least not from my school.

The only way for me to give proof is to bring you around to museums in the Philippines. Or come to my school and see some of the antiques I have on the walls. I have old Philippine combat axes that were made of jaw bones of big animals. We guesstimate they are 200 to 300 years old or more. No one has them on the web. I can't find those particular items anywhere.

.


Ron,
Can you post a picture of your wall of antique swords at your school?

[Ron Kosakowski]

Ron,
Can you post a picture of your wall of antique swords at your school?
I am not the most computer literate person here. Do I just copy and paste? I would have to take picutres of them, then do that if thats the method. Let me know and I can do that.

I will also see if my friend can send me pics of some of the originals also. I may have some of those pics. I have to dog them out of the mess of unorganized files in my computer to do that. But I remember being sent a few.

[themorningstar]

I have many antiques at my school. All of which do look like some of the blades I have here on the TFW site. I don't have all 50 different weapons so I cannot help you there...at least not from my school.

would you be so gracious as to show examples of what you do have?

As for the clips, those are modified in a modern way for a reason. Bringing a tropical grown wood here to the US where most of us have 4 season, I noticed some shrinkage and warping on a few of the sheathes. To fix that problem before it started happening to more than just a few, we needed to modify the sheaths a little bit. Not on all of them but some. In fact, we will be using a different more expensive hard wood, maybe Kamagong for some of the sheaths soon do to some problems I found happening. Replacing peoples weapons gets expensive so I have to modify the sheaths. However, they are still traditional weapons from the Philippines.

you write: "these are modified in a modern way for a reason", "i have to modify the sheaths" -but then contradict all of that by saying they are still traditional from the philippines?

As for the historical proof. Believe me, this was a lot of work on my friends and me. My friend had many of these weapons within his family...the blades of the north anyway. If you go to http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Sandata.html you will see that we have seperated the catagorys of north, south,, etc. The ceremonial knives for example...as a gift, they gave me the originals which are so old, they are rusty and have no wooden handles on them. I plan on putting them behind glass to display at my school as they are. To me, even though they are old loooking like that, it has meaning and also look artful.

you write: "my friend had many of these weapons within his family...the blades of the north anyway." but you have vehemently advertised and posted that the tribe that works for you has been making all of your blade designs for hundreds of years-how does that extend to the visayan blades of the central islands and the moro/non moro blades of mindanao?

The rest of the weapons we got from old men from whatever island. Sometimes the blades were borrowed, sometimes they were bought from these old timers who just so happen to still have a family heirloom hanging around.
Museums in the Philippines played an important part in getting actual measurements and some historical info on them. So as you can see, we did not pull them out of our heads and make fantasy blades. Most people did not see many of these designs because they have been dead for a 100 or more years. Many of these you cannot find on the internet for the same reason. Our goal is to bring back a piece of history that has almost become extinct.

do you mind sharing which particular museums in the philippines you have acquired your measurements and information from so that we can compare the examples to yours side by side?
i think your quote of " most people did not see many of these designs because they have been dead for a 100 or more years. many of these you cannot find on the internet for the same reason. our goal is to bring back a history that has almost become extinct." is very presumptuous. who are these people that you speak of? researchers, historians and collectors have documented, catalogued and even printed their information for public viewing-so i fail to understand how you can make this claim. are you trying to say that you are the main reason for bringing these so-called dead blades back to life? where are you getting your information that these blades have been dead for 100 or more years? to make it worse-if its been dead for that long, how have you magically stumbled across it since you cannot find them on the internet and theyve been dead fo 100 or more years? how has the bladed history of the philippines almost become extinct to the point that its needs your help in resurrecting it? have you spent many years in the philipines? how can pieces of our bladed history become extinct when we have tribes like the one that works for you that have been making blades for hundreds of years?
you keep contradicting your posts - im just looking for clarification and straight answers- no hostility is needed

First off, where is your proof that they are not historically accurate outside some clips to hold them in place? I understand that a true historian has to have written proof of historical facts. the problem with the Philippines is a few things against having written records just hanging around in some areas of lesser importance. Number one, outside influences changed that area a few times a little bit in culture and religion. We all know that already. The Spanish had destroyed all written anything due to the thought that the ancient sanscrit looking writings were the writings of the devil. Everything else that survived rotted in the tropical weather. Steel does the same thing. Look at the word Kali...many do not believe the word Kali is a valid pre-Spanish term. But, where did Yambao get the word to put it in his book in 1957? That debate dies right there actually due to no written records and the use of Spanish wording.

sir, theres lots of proof that they are not historically accurate- where is your proof that they are?
"the spanish had destroyed all written anything.... everything else that survived rotted in the tropical weather"
are you serious- thats a heavy blow against your own information if you believe and write that.... so how did you magically come across the information?
once again you presume too much of the philippines culture and history-if our histories were destroyed by the spanish and everything else rotted- how have we survived and existed for so long? how do we even have any mythological and cultural stories to tell our children? how have we preserved our methods of making native crafts and cooking traditional foods? how have we retained dialects that have no outside influence of spain's tongue? how has the northern luzon tribe that works for you retain the methods to making your traditional luzon visayan and mindanao blades and keep it away from the spanish?
you are making a veiled insult to those proud to be from the islands of the philippines.

do you even have or have even read yambao's book?
because you seemed surprised about it when a myspace member told you about yambao's book.
i have an original copy right next to me-so dont try to say anything about it being in spanish wording.

The only way for me to give proof is to bring you around to museums in the Philippines. Or come to my school and see some of the antiques I have on the walls. I have old Philippine combat axes that were made of jaw bones of big animals. We guesstimate they are 200 to 300 years old or more. No one has them on the web. I can't find those particular items anywhere.

Anyway, I understand the controvercy or at least wondering if they are really historically accurate or not. I can assure you they are. And a lotta work went into making sure of that. There is more to what we do in TFW than just a website with blades for sale. There is a bigger picture.

we as collectors, historians and researchers can assure you they are not historically accurate- you disagree they are. what happens if someone shows you they are not? will you being willing to accept that? will you then try to make a new copy? will you change things around like the kampilan and talibong handles? what will you do?
i would hope for the better mr. kosakowski-you can do so much good with your business especially for fma practicioners, but only if you make sure its done with honest and truthful information.

[themorningstar]

What question did I not answer in the Kuntao knife thread? Though, start a new thread for that because I do not want to get into that. I have been involved with the real elders and still am so really, opinions here do not mean anything to me on Kuntao.

As for the Ginunting, its funny that I have seen the same exact look. GT Leo Gaje has the same exact looking Ginunting that is an older version. If I remember correctly, Nene has one that looks pretty much the same. Is the Gaje/Tortel family not accurate in their design? It is where we based our design from. Its the same design base that Sgt Prado uses, who also sells Ginuntings online and in the Philippines.

GT Gaje has numerous ginuntings that he uses at any time-sometimes its the traditional one from negros and sometimes its the modified one for the philippine force recon marines that has mainly influence from luzon culture. GM Nene only uses the traditional one from negros culture.
and why are you selling the same design base of another maker and seller?
you have always claimed yours were the traditional version havent you?

I can tell you this also, I have seen say the Pinute all over the Philippines...probably one of the most popular designs. Most use the term, "pinute" also. However, I have also seen that same pinute with some subtle design changes. Making blades is artwork. Each artist is going to give their design twist to it making it their signature design. So if you see a blade I have that does not look exactly like mine, that may be due to the design the artist took at the time. Like I said above, these designs are based on museum peices.

the pinuti is a very popular blade and name-but traditionally and historically it is only found in certain parts of the philippines-otherwise they have a different name for it. but shouldnt you know that from your research and visit to museums or at least been told that by makers and other locals from different islands? even in your own blade videos with GT Gaje he mentions different names for some of your blades- so who is incorrect then? is it the Grand Tuhon of PTK or the owner of TraditionalFilipinoWeapons? is not acceptable that you are both right? at least GT Gaje says that such and such blade is also called..., where as you have just written that if the design doesnt look like yours-then its artistic difference only- but yours is still the standard so to speak of what a particular blade should look like.
that is a very bold claim sir.

I am NOT misleading the public in any way at all. And would not. I am always willing to learn more of course and I will say I don't know if I do not. I have no problem with that. I never claimed to be an expert. I claimed to have some knowledge in the history, culture and a lot of knowledge in the fighting arts of the Philippines. Its what i like!

mr. kosakowski you keep saying that you are always willing to learn more- yet you contradict yourself time and time again everytime the issue arises. you rise up and defend your claims and posts-sometimes you avoid them all together. you say you have no problem with learning more yet you speak out of anger sometimes and offer hostility. you willfully ask for opinions and comments on your topics and subjects but become defensive and hostile once someone responds negatively or questions your "authority" and "time" in the martial arts and now blades.



can we have a productive discussion mr kosakowski...?

[Ron Kosakowski]

we as collectors, historians and researchers can assure you they are not historically accurate- you disagree they are. what happens if someone shows you they are not? will you being willing to accept that? will you then try to make a new copy? will you change things around like the kampilan and talibong handles? what will you do?
i would hope for the better mr. kosakowski-you can do so much good with your business especially for fma practicioners, but only if you make sure its done with honest and truthful information.
Well Mr Morningstar, like I said, you seem to follow me around for some reason or another. Even on MySpace? On my forum? Hmmm...you in love with me or something? All I see here is you putting down my blades. If you are trying to put me out of business, you cannot. What is your goal here? What do you actually like about the TFW business...anything at all?

You are throwing stuff at me I never said, picking apart my words on every thread I go on in this forum. This thread started off with MY observation on the little time that I can spend there each year. Yet my observations are attacked in a very unfriendly manner in a very sarcastic way. I even said at the beginning, "thoughts to add to my opinions here?" I am interested in Philippine history and culture for whatever reason and maybe you should appreciate that or are you just over and above everyone else?

As for the blades, I have seen many rusty originals, how you can say they are not accurate, i don't know and you never showed me differently. I have seen the Talibong on the web with the hooked handles with subtle design differences. the Kampilan when it first came out was on the opposit side, then repaired before to many went out. I know the Pinute is called other names elsewhere also.

As for GT Leo saying the name wrong...it was on one blade which was the Panabas, he called the Laring. I didn't catch that when i was filming but he did a pretty good job on the rest.

And I do not see what is wrong with making one little modification out of a sheath to hold the blades in better. Like I said, some woods from there have warped. A VERY small amount did that. I did not want that happen anymore so the clips were added. It is the blade makers design and yes, they are still traditional.

I have not met anyone so unfriendly before. Like I said, appreciate where i am at here. through email or in person, I may have learned a lot from you. I am open minded. Always have been. That you should see in what I am doing. The putting down of others to make yourself look good is not what I am used to...at least I don't do that.

[Ron Kosakowski]

GT Gaje has numerous ginuntings that he uses at any time-sometimes its the traditional one from negros and sometimes its the modified one for the philippine force recon marines that has mainly influence from luzon culture. GM Nene only uses the traditional one from negros culture.
and why are you selling the same design base of another maker and seller?
you have always claimed yours were the traditional version havent you?

I am not basing it on another seller. I was basing it on Leo Gaje's Ginunting that he had long before the Marine modification. I do not have the Force Recon Ginunting. I do want to eventually have one made though. Or am I going against tradition if I do that?

[Ron Kosakowski]

can we have a productive discussion mr kosakowski...?
Yup!

[Ron Kosakowski]

do you even have or have even read yambao's book?

because you seemed surprised about it when a myspace member told you about yambao's book.
i have an original copy right next to me-so dont try to say anything about it being in spanish wording.


Where did I say yambaos book is Spanish wording? I merely said the Kali word is controversial and Yambao had to get it from somewhere.

You have to read what I say. I have been friendly here without anger although you say I am angry. I came here to post to see who else was going to add to the posts. To see what others say but the sarcasm is amazing here and its always by you.

[R. Mike Snow]

I would like to see historical examples with those currently made as well. However, I have seen no proof that they are not true representations of historical examples. Does anyone in the previous examples have proof that they are not true in their representation? There were no links or proof provided. I would like to know either way with some actual proof provided.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/DTSgroup/Binangkuko.jpg

[R. Mike Snow]

Hello everyone and my sincere apologies for the late reply. The blade I just posted in my previous post from my collection is NOT, and I will repeat, is NOT a Ginunting. To the untrained or misguided eye it may look like a Ginunting. But there are huge differences aside the general shape of the blade, again general shape or the blade. I have heard the particular sword labeled as a Binangkoko, Binangkuko and even a Matulis Kuko. But never a Ginunting! A true Ilinggo Ginuntings from Negros or Panay are NOT ever pinned at the butt of the hilt, do not gradually taper from the guard or ferrell, are never fullered, never fluted and do not even feel the same. Oh, and are never chiseled too far at the top, becaue it would ruin the forward weight(power of) the blade.

Sincerely, Mike

p.s. The stars at the top of the hilt represent the "THREE ISLANDS" regions of the Philippines. Luzun, the Vasiyas and the Sulu Sultanate. An independent and united Philippines is the theme of this Katipunan blade.

[Kali Cowboy]

Nice blade Mike! I have one just like it! LOL. See you in Chicago, and I will bring your baby with me.
God Bless,
Stephen

[mabagani]

I am NOT misleading the public in any way at all. And would not. I am always willing to learn more of course and I will say I don't know if I do not. I have no problem with that. I never claimed to be an expert.

To get to the point and without sarcasm, you admit you are not an expert and still learning, yet you do mislead the public by continuing to write unresearched misinformation. Besides stating incorrect historical comments, you also admit to taking artistic liberties in the designs and making non-traditional modifications in the manufacturing of your products. So why use images of commercial copies rather than real artifacts on this thread about history? Doesn't this appear to fall under advertising and promoting products which is against forum rules? There are conflicts of interests here using copies instead of real examples and its the cause of many the contradictions. In general, it insults everyone's intelligence and its irresponsible to perpetuate false information.

[arnisador]

you admit you are not an expert and still learning

Everyone here who's not still learning, raise your hand!

[Buwaya]

In general, it insults everyone's intelligence and its irresponsible to perpetuate false information.

My apologies, but I'm going to have to differ with the above poster on one particular point, I don't think it insult everyone's intelligence, I think it only insults the informed.

The uninformed are oblivious. Perhaps blissfully.

lets be straight up here. The Filipino martial arts community,in large part, is not educated in its own blades.

Very few of the first wave of Migrant workers Filipinos that first taught and fought outside of the Philippines brought swords with them. Its uncommon to find footage or photographs of the Stockton or Hawaiian manongs with native Philippine sandata. When you see someone of that era with a sword, its likely a machete, or a fencing saber, or more common, Garotte/flatstick. Leo Giron is a noticeable exception to this.

That gap in sword knowledge from one generation to the succeeding, their students, is why something like the blades at TFW's can be passed off as traditional and the history as well researched or even accurate. The body of practitioners doesn't know any better.

The issue is that overseas FMA practitioners divorced from the traditions and lifestyles that surround their weaponry read something like the history on TFWs and believe it, and see or buy the blades and think they're holding traditional Philippine sandata.

Its actually sad.

I don't mind nonsense passed as history on the Internet. That's normal. I also don't mind fantasy interpretations of Philippine blades that are horribly inaccurate. Also normal. I mind when your talking about my culture and the Art, and you try to pass something off as something when it isn't.

Be straight up and call it what it is. Those barongs weren't made in Sulu, those Pira weren't made by Yakan hands, those sansibars didn't come from Leyte. Call an apple an apple.

I have more respect for someone who's creating modern reproductions using modern methods and honest about it, than somebody trying to sell the native indigenious never been alterted made by the same tribe for hundreds of years, made from modern steel, with belt clips, and pins, hundreds of miles from its region of origin.

[greg808]

Thanks Ron. I'm astonished by your craftsmanship and one day will start a collection on your fine blades.

[arnisador]

lets be straight up here. The Filipino martial arts community,in large part, is not educated in its own blades.


Yeah, this has always been the case for me. I've never studied with anyone who has made a point of really discussing what distinguishes one blade from another--it's as though everything is a bolo.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

...depends who you study with.

With Master Yuli Romo I am very fortunate that the weapons, culture and Philosophy of the Philippines are discussed every meeting. We also discuss how certain blades are made and the reasons for it. He has a collection of traditional pieces that he frequently shows visitors and does the occasional demo with.

In the past he has lent me "Moro Swords" by Cato, a few other publications from Musuems and most recently a Philippine History book detailing early history to about the 1960s (when the book was published - a family heirloom!).

He actively encourages students take an interest in the history and culture of these fighting arts and also wants all instructors to know alibata too. For me it adds an extra dimension to my training and understanding.

I just wanted to share that not all instructors are alike.

Simon.

[arnisador]

You're fortunate! Modern Arnis is very stick-oriented because of the strong Balintawak influence, but other FMA instructors with whom I've studied have also always just treated a sword as a sword. That's good from one point of view, but one misses the history and subtleties of design and usage!

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Yep, I count my blessings, I really do :)

A point in case (from what I gather and I do stand to be corrected) is that a lot of traditional Filipino weapons have no guards - like the barong. So we are taught "squeezing" by Master Yuli.

For example you bait the opponent with the edge pointed down and wait for their live hand to check you. When it arrives you squeeze and twist the blade to rotate it 180 degrees and withdraw - cutting the hand.

With a guard that is not possible.

[sjansen]

Yep, I count my blessings, I really do :)

A point in case (from what I gather and I do stand to be corrected) is that a lot of traditional Filipino weapons have no guards - like the barong. So we are taught "squeezing" by Master Yuli.

For example you bait the opponent with the edge pointed down and wait for their live hand to check you. When it arrives you squeeze and twist the blade to rotate it 180 degrees and withdraw - cutting the hand.

With a guard that is not possible.

Hey Simon, do you have any pictures of the museum swords? I'd love to see them. I'm not up in the discussion of what is real and what isn't. I just want to learn.

[R. Mike Snow]

In the past he has lent me "Moro Swords" by Cato, a few other publications from Musuems and most recently a Philippine History book detailing early history to about the 1960s (when the book was published - a family heirloom!).


I just wanted to share that not all instructors are alike.

Simon.

Yes Simon, you are blessed to have Master Romo as an instructor. GT Tortal speaks very highly of him.

I would love to have that old classic too, as a keepsake. But all of the collectors I know and even my Pendakar from Jolo tell me that the information on Moro blades in the book is not enirely correct. I cannot wait to stumble across a copy one of these days to check it out. I have the old "Stone's Glossary" and it is off as well as severely lacking information on Sadata.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Hi Mike,

Yes, I tend to always to think of the 3 versions (mine, theirs and the real version) of the truth when dealing with anything historical - including oral history ;).

I am ashamed to admit I just have a photocopy of that book as I couldn't afford the $200 - $300 to purchase it at one of the few places it is available on-line.

Hi Scott,

It's mostly Barongs he has as they were the favourite blade of his Instructor, GM Ilustrisimo. I think they are featured at the start of a you-tube video. I will see if I can dig it out.

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi Simon,

You have nothing to be ashamed of. I don't have the cash to purchase it right now and will not have for a while to buy purchase it or anything else for that matter. That's just life. You have things far more valuable than the book anyway, the oral traditions and traditional techniques within your grasp. Most FMA'ers never even get to go to the Philippines and you live there. So you are truly blessed. I wish we could all just pick up a volume of each culture's history and traditions including all artifacts out of a digital AV library. But it looks like I will just have to continue wishing.......

God Bless, Mike

[silat1]

Here, Here Majority of FMA practitioners who I have ran across have never been to the Philippines and have no concept of what it is like to train there.. Especially during the times that I did in the past, less than 35 yrs after the second war and things still being taught as they were back then.. No flowery movements, nothing that wasted time, all real time proven combatives from those who have seen the elephant and lived to kick it in the nads.. That is why I like the DTS system as taught by the guys who I consider friends now.. My training with GT Nene was like being back with my instructors back in the 70s and I will always remember that time for as long as I am able to swing a stick..

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Thanks :)

It's a fascinating culture and it's just a shame there seems to be a dearth of museums and media on the subject. A case in point is a program I caught on the T'boli tribe the other day on the knowledge channel. Here is a link to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf4O1kfd_uc

I really enjoyed how learning about the tribe, their dances and culture. The oldest weaver also had a Kris sword which was an heirloom. I contacted the Musuem in Makati to try and get the DVD but as usual despite the number being on the website they didn't know what I (or my wife in this case) was on about...:(

Anyway, I wandered off and got back to the point of this thread (which being an online retailer I tried to stay out of!!!)

Here's an interesting picture I just found whilst surfing:

Kampilan Sword of the T’boli People



http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos/items/67/001567/ph-0.jpg

Any opinions on the hilt? They have all been shaped like crocodiles in the examples I have seen.

Hmmm, I just find this picture:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd240/99Kampilan/a73e299d.jpg

Lumad
Bagobo, T'boli Tok
Mountain Province
Ibaroy axe, Kalinga axe (fourth and sixth), Bontoc axe

How cool are these two:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd240/99Kampilan/fb1906de.jpg
Bangsamoro, 19th Century or earlier
Kalis Taluseko, Kalis Tulid, Kalis Tulid, Kris Matidto, Kris Seko, Kris Seko

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd240/99Kampilan/60043610.jpg

Bangsamoro
Padsumbalin Panabas (first and second), typical Panabas (last two), Barongs from Sulu (first, second, third, and fifth are known as Junggayan type, due to the handle design, which are most likely reserved for the Datus)



Apologies if these have been posted elsewhere but I'm sure we'll all appreciate seeing these pics!

Simon.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Great museum pic's Simon.

In regards to many of the blades I have seen differences in hilt or blade based on a certain tribes or pandays preferences. Similar to Mike Snows blade in I believe this thread that looks like a ginunting and could be mistaken for one but yet is not. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I have a beautiful pre world war II tenegre that unfortunately has to have a new handle to be usuable again. However, once I do that it will not be the same. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Buwaya]

In regards to many of the blades I have seen differences in hilt or blade based on a certain tribes or pandays preferences. Similar to Mike Snows blade in I believe this thread that looks like a ginunting and could be mistaken for one but yet is not. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif




There's a difference.


What Simon is talking about is regional differencies between kampilans.


What Mike Snow is talking about is people calling something it isn't. You could call his example a ginunting, but isn't. It's from a whole different region. Different arts emerged to fight with that, then those that did to fight with ginunting.


In Simon's case above, both are kampilans, forked and not, but variations based on region, and ethnic group.

Any personal creative variation of the panday still happens within the traditional classic forms of that ethnic groups sandata.

When you talk about huge variations based on a panday's preference, your now talking about a panday not from the region or ethnic group, not raised in that specific blacksmithing tradition making sandata based on descriptions and photographs, never having held or handled the actual thing. That's how the soul of a art is destroyed.

That's how soulless life-less blades are created.

There's meaning behind each and every aspect of a sundang. History, war, religion, agriculture, all wrapped up in it. A panday foreign to the blade just adds things because they're nifty, pretty, look cool, catch the eye, without any grasp why the original blade looked, moved and handled the way it did, often adding and changing things that have nothing to do with the blade.

Fine and dandy, unless your trying to pass it off as the actual thing.

This is not an attack on anyone's business or any one personally. So much as an explanation of why people are responding strongly to this.

It's more important to support the dying blacksmithing tradition in the Philippines at the regional micro level in terms of preservation than attempting to create one stop sundang emporiums catering to every regional fancy. Its better to go to the region your interested in to support a local panday where the blade comes from, grounded and raised in how the blade is made passed down from generation to generation.

Otherwise all you'll find in ten years, is empty blacksmithing shacks and cold forges. And people who no longer know the names or stories behind anything. Trust me, this is already happening, and has been for a long time.

[Brian R. VanCise]

You know I have a lot of blades from all over the Philippines direct from pandays native to the region. Do not be confused that I do not know the names, etc. as I research carefully. I fully know the difference from a blade produced by a panday and one mass produced. I will use mass produced blades to do cutting with because I do not want an origional damaged. (ie. ones that have more than just monetary value)

Now as to the sword dealer in question well that is for you and he to discuss differences. I am not involved!

[Brian R. VanCise]

I also agree with supporting local black smiths. I am all for it and have for the past twenty years or so. Thanks. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Labantayo]

Simon,
Just a FYI regarding the pics of the museum pieces:
I know most of the people who donated their swords for that exhibition.
Most of the descriptions on that site are incorrect, as the preparer of information for each sword did not do his job correctly. So take the descriptions with a grain of salt. But there are some beautiful pieces!!!

Buwaya and Mr. Snow,
I'm glad to see someone else who understands our position on preserving Philippines history correctly.

Mr. Snow,
Do you have that "ginunting" you posted? :)
Wanna trade? :)

Mr. Van Cise,
Thanks you so much for supporting our blacksmiths!!
Only they know how to make the sundang feel right.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Agree completely with Brian's sentiments. I only posted the question to expand my own knowledge and not for controversy. I can understand why people have strong feelings around these issues and tried to steer clear!

Thanks for the comments regarding the Kampilan. Here's the last photo of them from the images I found:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd240/99Kampilan/2c8f2e26.jpg

Bangsamoro
Bangkung(20th c.), Kampilan, Bangkung(20th c.), Kampilan, Kampilan with a reworked handle, Kampilan

[arnisador]

I love the pictures!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes Simon beautiful pictures. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

I have seen the site you posted them from but could you give us the link so we do not have to hunt around for it. Thanks!

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have an authentic Kampilan similar to the one with the horse hair. Alas and unfortunately for me the hilt cracked due to the different weather here in Michigan. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon9.gif When I go next to the Phillipines for training some time next year I will have to try and replace it with another Kampilan if I can find one. Then I will have to take extreme measure to ensure that it will not crack. Ie. maintain a constant temperature.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

I found them posted on a forum.

Here's the link:

http://pinoyhistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photos&action=display&thread=141

[Buwaya]

You know I have a lot of blades from all over the Philippines direct from pandays native to the region. Do not be confused that I do not know the names, etc. as I research carefully. I fully know the difference from a blade produced by a panday and one mass produced. I will use mass produced blades to do cutting with because I do not want an origional damaged. (ie. ones that have more than just monetary value)

Now as to the sword dealer in question well that is for you and he to discuss differences. I am not involved!

Brian,

I quoted your post to coment on a common misunderstanding I see online regarding a pandays personal interpretation of sandata, one that could be misconstrued from your phrasing. It's not aimed at you, but addressed more to the overall tone of the discussion. Please don't take it personally. I don't believe anyone's "involved" so much as we all have a personal interest in an art that we all love.

My posts are addressed more to the overall thread and a personal commentary on things, than addressed to anyone in paticular.

[Brian R. VanCise]

No sweat and I understand where you are coming from. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Labantayo]

I have an authentic Kampilan similar to the one with the horse hair. Alas and unfortunately for me the hilt cracked due to the different weather here in Michigan. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon9.gif When I go next to the Phillipines for training some time next year I will have to try and replace it with another Kampilan if I can find one. Then I will have to take extreme measure to ensure that it will not crack. Ie. maintain a constant temperature.


Mr. Van Cise,
If you ever want to unload the cracked kampilan, please let me know... :)

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mr. Van Cise,
If you ever want to unload the cracked kampilan, please let me know... :)

I will keep you in mind but it would be very, very hard to ever part with it. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[R. Mike Snow]

Buwaya and Mr. Snow,
I'm glad to see someone else who understands our position on preserving Philippines history correctly.

Mr. Snow,
Do you have that "ginunting" you posted? :)
Wanna trade? :)

Mr. Van Cise,
Thanks you so much for supporting our blacksmiths!!
Only they know how to make the sundang feel right.

Which one are you refering to? I have posted two or three of my Ginunings and I do have all of them. Well, with the exception of five. Kali Cowbay kidnapped my Binangkuko and Navadisha one of my Plamengko. : ) I am still unsure of the ransom too. Pendakar confiscated one of my Barungs and GT Nene my Si and Au Seko w/Cu inlay. And I gave my Kampilan as a gift of appreciation.

[sjansen]

Agree completely with Brian's sentiments. I only posted the question to expand my own knowledge and not for controversy. I can understand why people have strong feelings around these issues and tried to steer clear!

Thanks for the comments regarding the Kampilan. Here's the last photo of them from the images I found:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd240/99Kampilan/2c8f2e26.jpg

Bangsamoro
Bangkung(20th c.), Kampilan, Bangkung(20th c.), Kampilan, Kampilan with a reworked handle, Kampilan

Thank you Simon. I'm sure you have cleared up alot of the BS.

[Navadisha]

Which one are you refering to? I have posted two or three of my Ginunings and I do have all of them. Well, with the exception of five. Kali Cowbay kidnapped my Binangkuko and Navadisha one of my Plamengko. : ) I am still unsure of the ransom too. Pendakar confiscated one of my Barungs and GT Nene my Si and Au Seko w/Cu inlay. And I gave my Kampilan as a gift of appreciation.

Ah, the plamenko (beautiful work), it is being well taken care off :wavey:
You should be reunited in a few weeks with some other surprises.

[themorningstar]

Well Mr Morningstar, like I said, you seem to follow me around for some reason or another. Even on MySpace? On my forum? Hmmm...you in love with me or something? All I see here is you putting down my blades. If you are trying to put me out of business, you cannot. What is your goal here? What do you actually like about the TFW business...anything at all?

sorry mr. kosakowski, im definitely not in love with you.
are you trying to imply some type of homosexual comment towards me as some sort of insult? that would be very wrong and prejudiced of you ,especially on a public forum and especially from a business owner sir.

i still have yet to see where you keep getting this idea that i am trying to put you out of business. how you make your money is not my concern.

my goal with my talks towards you have been simple- i have asked questions seeking answers and you have yet to give me straight answers even after you reply back with my comments quoted. my only other goal is the preservation of philippine sandata, history and culture which i have stated many times.

You are throwing stuff at me I never said, picking apart my words on every thread I go on in this forum. This thread started off with MY observation on the little time that I can spend there each year. Yet my observations are attacked in a very unfriendly manner in a very sarcastic way. I even said at the beginning, "thoughts to add to my opinions here?" I am interested in Philippine history and culture for whatever reason and maybe you should appreciate that or are you just over and above everyone else?

once again sir, you really need to reread my posts... i also suggest that you take a few more minutes to reread your replies to my posts and how they barely address them.
i do appreciate that you are interested in philippine history and culture, what i dont appreciate are your hostile and snide comments in place of answers to questions asked.

As for the blades, I have seen many rusty originals, how you can say they are not accurate, i don't know and you never showed me differently. I have seen the Talibong on the web with the hooked handles with subtle design differences. the Kampilan when it first came out was on the opposit side, then repaired before to many went out. I know the Pinute is called other names elsewhere also.

now heres an example of what i am talking about in regards to rereading your posts: "As for the blades, I have seen many rusty originals, how you can say they are not accurate, i don't know and you never showed me differently" ... according to you, the tribe that makes your blades has been making all these blades for hundreds of years, the information on your blades you have acquired through research and a philippine professor on history, and you and your associates have scoured the islands looking for these blades and even bringing "dead" one back to life. if all of that is true, then why would i or anyone else be questioning you on their accuracy? you just wrote that you dont know-when you should be the one person to know! and why should i continue to show you differently? havent i already pointed things out to you like your backwards kampilan and your changing of the talibon handle? why the need for the change when they are supposed to be accurate and traditional? by the way, you still have yet to answer my question if you have offered replacements or refunds to those people that bought those swords in place of the new ones-think about your customers, wouldnt your feelings be hurt if you found out you owned a traditional filipino weapon that had its handle backwards?

As for GT Leo saying the name wrong...it was on one blade which was the Panabas, he called the Laring. I didn't catch that when i was filming but he did a pretty good job on the rest.

please reread my post (again)- i never said GT Gaje said a name wrong so i dont know where you are getting that from. i said "even in your own blade videos with GT Gaje he mentions different names for some of your blades- so who is incorrect then? is it the Grand Tuhon of PTK or the owner of TraditionalFilipinoWeapons? is not acceptable that you are both right? at least GT Gaje says that such and such blade is also called..., where as you have just written that if the design doesnt look like yours-then its artistic difference only- but yours is still the standard so to speak of what a particular blade should look like."

And I do not see what is wrong with making one little modification out of a sheath to hold the blades in better. Like I said, some woods from there have warped. A VERY small amount did that. I did not want that happen anymore so the clips were added. It is the blade makers design and yes, they are still traditional.

that makes no sense at all sir... sorry...

I have not met anyone so unfriendly before. Like I said, appreciate where i am at here. through email or in person, I may have learned a lot from you. I am open minded. Always have been. That you should see in what I am doing. The putting down of others to make yourself look good is not what I am used to...at least I don't do that.

mr. kosakowski, it has you who have been unfriendly towards me and others who have tried to help you by merely correcting what we have found to be incorrect. yes you may have learned alot if you were open minded enough to accept that there are things about the philippines sandata, culture and history that you havent learned yet and people such as myself and other members of this and other forums have spent our lifetimes learning, researching and living.
and as far as your last sentence-"The putting down of others to make yourself look good is not what I am used to...at least I don't do that." - all one has to do is go to your forum, your youtube clips, and myspace forums to see the contrary.

[themorningstar]

I am not basing it on another seller. I was basing it on Leo Gaje's Ginunting that he had long before the Marine modification. I do not have the Force Recon Ginunting. I do want to eventually have one made though. Or am I going against tradition if I do that?

thats odd, the first version of your ginunting looked very much like it. i saw version 2 started to step away from it and now version 3 looks less like it.
so are you stating that your version is closer to the original negros version of the ginunting? because i dont seem to see the s-guard or the traditional handle style found in the negros version.
if you or anyone else wants to take a look - go to pt-go.com and look up the pictures that mandala tim waid has graciously provided of the philippine force recon marines with their "bolo"
http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy4.jpg
http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy5.jpg

that was the blade style used before it was modified...
yours bares a closer resemblance to the new one and not those.

[themorningstar]

You know I have a lot of blades from all over the Philippines direct from pandays native to the region. Do not be confused that I do not know the names, etc. as I research carefully. I fully know the difference from a blade produced by a panday and one mass produced. I will use mass produced blades to do cutting with because I do not want an origional damaged. (ie. ones that have more than just monetary value)

Now as to the sword dealer in question well that is for you and he to discuss differences. I am not involved!

mr. vancise,
hello sir and i hope all is well with you.
if i am correct-you own a tfw ginunting, typhoon blades ginunting and an antique ginunting?
if you can spare a moment of your time sir, can you provide a side by side by side picture of said 3 blades for comparison being an unbiased third party as well as a supporter of philippine sandata and pandays for the sake of this discussion on philippine history and blades?

[themorningstar]

Agree completely with Brian's sentiments. I only posted the question to expand my own knowledge and not for controversy. I can understand why people have strong feelings around these issues and tried to steer clear!

Thanks for the comments regarding the Kampilan. Here's the last photo of them from the images I found:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd240/99Kampilan/2c8f2e26.jpg

Bangsamoro
Bangkung(20th c.), Kampilan, Bangkung(20th c.), Kampilan, Kampilan with a reworked handle, Kampilan


i dont see any clips on these scabbards.... and are the handles on backwards?
these cant be traditional....

[Buwaya]

I found them posted on a forum.

Here's the link:

http://pinoyhistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photos&action=display&thread=141 (http://pinoyhistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=photos&action=display&thread=141)

Thank you Simon. I'm sure you have cleared up alot of the BS.


As people are referencing the history of steel exhibit photographs and captions, I'd like to highlight a piont Labantayo made previously that may have been glossed over.


Simon,
Just a FYI regarding the pics of the museum pieces:
I know most of the people who donated their swords for that exhibition.
Most of the descriptions on that site are incorrect, as the preparer of information for each sword did not do his job correctly. So take the descriptions with a grain of salt. But there are some beautiful pieces!!!



Looking through the history of steel captions I notice a number of wrongly labeled swords.

A few months ago I was visiting family in San Francisco and we went to the Asian Art Museum. Some of the Philippine swords were mislabeled as Indonesion. One of the one's labeled as Filipino was put in the wrong region and time period.

Just because somethings in a book or museum doesn't make it accurate. It's valuble to see, to see what things looked like from a paticular time period, but the best information will come first hand from the region and people that keep it as a vibrant living tradition.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Completely agree Buwaya (again).

Maybe you missed this earlier post of mine:




...I tend to always to think of the 3 versions (mine, theirs and the real version) of the truth when dealing with anything historical - including oral history ;).



I just posted the photographs as I thought they were relevant and not to support any hypothesis I / others may have. I also thought they would bring the thread back on topic and help relieve the tension shall we say ...;)

My question is that if a sword does not have the "Crocodile" hilt, is it still a Kampilan? This is for my own curiosity. Unfortunately, I think this was lost in the back and forth that this thread started and has descended back into :(

Maybe we should all try to help each other and be respectful and receptive with the sharing of information - and ofcourse, appreciative towards those like yourself who have knowledge to share.

[R. Mike Snow]

Maybe we should all try to help each other and be respectful and receptive with the sharing of information - and ofcourse, appreciative towards those like yourself who have knowledge to share.

Sounds Like a plan! But these gentlemen have posted on numerous occcasions and no one ever listened. They have just been pathologically dismissed as rude, uneducated bullies that have been verbally attacked and not ever given the simplest of responses. A simple "Thank you" from the start and the answers of their questions. They are all big enough to take care of them selves, but I felt that they were being categorized unjustly, so I finally decided jump in to verify their knowlege and experience as well as post a photographic example to help clarify ONE of their many points.

[Buwaya]

Simon, check your PM. I'll awnser your question.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Sounds Like a plan! But these gentlemen have posted on numerous occcasions and no one ever listened.

Well, I'm listening and I'm sure others are as well that maybe don't want to don a tin hat and post on this thread! We are lucky to have you guys on the forum. Thanks for the PM buyawa.

[mabagani]

My question is that if a sword does not have the "Crocodile" hilt, is it still a Kampilan? This is for my own curiosity.
Kampilan hilts do not necessarily have to have a crocodile form, I've seen the hilts morph stylistically from reptilian, to bird, to aquatic like forms, but what you'll find in common are the blade orientations, types, and native carving if we are writing about the typical Mindanao/Sulu Moro/Muslim kampilan.
Looking back at your original post and photos, the T'boli form of the short kampilan (for lack of a better term and description) is a "tok", if I recall. The non-Muslim tribes surrounding Moro territories had their own forms of hilts and short kampilan type blades with their own native names other than "kampilan", the similarities in blade types were due to trade and their interrelated history, the characteristics the non-Muslim tribes blades had in common were the shorter length vs. the longer Moro swords.

[Sun_Helmet]

Good thread.

If you check out this link, you can view one of the oldest Weapons of Moroland displays. This is from a VERY old book, Inhabitants of the Philippines written by Fredric Sawyer in 1904. It was taken from an actual display of weapons from the Philippine Museum, not the miniatures you see today. I cropped and enhanced the image so that the old photograph can show the details. The book's photo was very old and there was lots of deterioration on the spine and edges.

As far as I can tell, this is the oldest Weapons of Moroland display ever captured on a photo. If you click the enlarge or magnifying button you can see a larger image.

Weapons of Moroland shirt (http://www.zazzle.com/weapons_of_moroland_vintage_tshirt-235318216676184017)

better image here:

Weapons of Moroland Print (http://www.zazzle.com/weapons_of_moroland_print-228093112624459962)

Pardon that this is a commercial link but since interest was brought up on old weapons, this display may explain more of what weapons the old plaques originally contained.

I'm sure the educated eyes here can distinguish and share what is missing and what has been added in the tourist WoM plaques of today.

I would also like to say that Ron's post is educational in that at least discussion is stirred up on this subject.

--Rafael--

[PG Michael B]

Rafael..excellent kapatid....very interesting. I do see the additions and deletions...great find!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Cool! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Sun_Helmet]

Thanks.

I'd like to provide another image that may hopefully stir up the historian in everyone to dig deeper into the mysteries of Filipino weaponry.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3594/kampilanscimitar2ej.jpg

Looking at old books about the pre 1900 time period especially weapons catalogued by the Spanish government for their own studies, I came across the kampilans of that day and they look very much like actual scimitars, not the forked, straight bladed shape that the kampilans we know of.

The 'Campilanes' illustrated in the Resen'a Historica de la Guerra al Sur de Filipinas in 1857 were markedly different than the ones we see today.

They are twice as wide where the tip widens, some bow out instead of the 'v' prongs, or in reverse, bow in at the tip instead of making the 'v', more of an exagerrated curve on the blade shape than a straight weapon. At the punyo were tassels, similar to the ones we see on latter versions.

I always wondered why the Portugese, Spanish and Italian ( the versions of Pigafetta's manuscript) had described the kampilans as scimitars, perhaps that was due to the weapons looking more like a fatter classical scimitar from the Arabian Nights. A page of the catalogue is reproduced on page 213 of Muslims in the Philippines by Majul.

What are your thoughts?

--Rafael--

[mabagani]

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3594/kampilanscimitar2ej.jpg


The 'Campilanes' illustrated in the Resen'a Historica de la Guerra al Sur de Filipinas in 1857 were markedly different than the ones we see today.

What are your thoughts?

--Rafael--

I've wondered about these drawings...but when looking at each of the renditions of the different swords and shields individually, their forms are off compared to known examples, so I'd guess that all are overstylized artwork rather than precise images in scale and form. I've seen curved versions of a long sword that could be considered a kampilan but the Spanish drawings resemble panabas-like blades which have more variation in length, width and curvature. Maybe historians and artists clumped every long blade as "kampilan" without making the distinctions.
Old Moro writings cite classical kampilans as we know today in descriptions and form of the hilt and blade and usage, which wouldn't be possible with the swords in the Spanish drawing. Oddly, Spanish historians were more precise about drawing Moro warships to scale and form, imo possibly because artists were more comfortable observing them from a distance vs. close quarter combat weapons. lol. but there are many real examples in Spain's museums and I don't recall any matching the ones in the drawings.

[R. Mike Snow]

I've wondered about these drawings...but when looking at each of the renditions of the different swords and shields individually, their forms are off compared to known examples, so I'd guess that all are overstylized artwork rather than precise images in scale and form. I've seen curved versions of a long sword that could be considered a kampilan but the Spanish drawings resemble panabas-like blades which have more variation in length, width and curvature. Maybe historians and artists clumped every long blade as "kampilan" without making the distinctions.
Old Moro writings cite classical kampilans as we know today in descriptions and form of the hilt and blade and usage, which wouldn't be possible with the swords in the Spanish drawing. Oddly, Spanish historians were more precise about drawing Moro warships to scale and form, imo possibly because artists were more comfortable observing them from a distance vs. close quarter combat weapons. lol. but there are many real examples in Spain's museums and I don't recall any matching the ones in the drawings.

I totally agree. I think that they exaggerated the shape of Parang and Pira. As well as making the hilts look more Moorsih and/or or Middle Eastern. A form of artistic propaganda if you will.

[Sun_Helmet]

Good points. The Spanish manuscript text themselves tended to use a lot of artistic license so I could see how that would translate in the artwork.

The best way to obtain a better perspective on this is to locate more drawings by this artist. Since he appeared to be designated to gather information, it would seem odd that he would not draw the standard kampilans since it would be much easier to debunk him due to all the actual weapons being brought in.

Still interesting regardless of whether it was exaggerated, an amalgam of other swords/weapons or not, it shows how history can be distorted by the record keepers.

The weapons of Moroland display does not support the drawings either. Although another old drawing I've seen has an even more exaggerated swirl at the tip of the blade but it wasn't called a "campilanes".

--Rafael--

[Sun_Helmet]

However, IF for some reason the kampilans as we know today did evolve, this would be the perfect time period for it to happen. Reason being is that Emilio Bernaldez a Spanish engineer who supplied the catalogue with it's content was part of the bloody campaign that overtook the Balangigi fort/cotta. It was recorded that this was one of the more decisive victories for Spain due to the natives being unfamiliar with fighting the Spanish bayonets. See page 350 of the book Iranun and Balangigi. (it comes up on a google search). Prior to this battle, the Spanish were still calling the kampilan a "scimitar-like" weapon. Page 170.

My theory has always been that the standard kampilan's design were made to thwart the pike and bayonets of the Spanish. The above examples were not. The forked tip and the forked handles are features that offer excellent counters which specifically address the advantages of a pike or bayonet, specifically the length of weapon.

This is merely theory of course, but one which addresses the wide margin of artistic license in this image not in others, the use of Spanish terminology of "scimitars", the actual attributes between the weapons that were involved in battle, historical references to the disadvantages, and the creativity of our ancestors.

--Rafael--