Sparring Masters & Advanced Guros

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Hi there,

Last nite, I wanted to write a post that would be thought provoking as best as I could... and at the moment, here is what i've come up with:

As I've been an avid Eskrima practitioner as well as a Reality Based Self Defense (RBSD) student, I have come to experience a strange thing in sparring in FMAs...

It seems, like in all the other Traditional Martial Arts (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu etc), Eskrima sparring is usually done by the students and not with the higher ups, in particular the Advanced Guros and Masters...

Is this the case of putting the Master on an untouchable god-like iconic level?... And to spar him would disrespectful?...

Now what if the student does hit the master every so often?... does that make the master less that what he is?... Will masters not spar in fear of looking bad to the other students? Just to clarify, I understand the respect factor and I do all the time...

Luckily, I have had almost all of my Eskrima teachers spar against me... even as my skill has grown, these same Masters still spar me in front of others in seminars/workshops!... yes I am able to hit them squarely on the face, but my respect is still there for them.. in fact, it may have even gone up for them sparring me!... I guess what I'm getting to is, How do you feel about Advanced Guros/Masters not sparring--essentially not able to pull off the some times complicated techniques he/she just showed us?

Any thoughts on this? (Please, as this can get out of hand, let us try not to mention any particular instructor/schools)

Thanks,

Cap

[Buwaya]

Our Maestros were fighting men. Some were *ahem* business men, some were bodyguards, many fought as guerillas or solders. All of them fought.

I have never heard of the Presas brothers, Tatang, Mena, Lema, the Canetes, or other GM's not sparring their students. Even into their later years.

I can't imagine not walking into a Balintawak, Doce Pares, Lighting Scientific, Lameco or Bakbakan school and not seeing sparring at all levels.

If you see a lack of ability with the top practitioners of your school, you need to ask if thats where you want to be.

[Buwaya]

Another thought about sparring advanced level practitioners/maestros,

Do it.

Reality is getting humbled by someone twenty-seventy years your senior.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

and that is what i'm looking for... to train as close to reality as much as possible... unfortunately, the newer generations seem to have gone to the ways of the traditional martial arts (Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do etc) and have put up their masters (who never fought) in a god-like iconic stature!...

it seems, that some of these so-called guros/masters teach mean well, but cannot pull off any the moves in sparring--it becomes caveman hitting...

why then teach something that is not useful in the real world?... the above mentioned grandmasters lived in an era known as the "GREATEST GENERATION" (Tom Brokaw) who fought in WW2 and right after that, i highly respect and have no question that they can do it... there are also the few that do spar with armor, and even without and that is the truth that is the essence of the FMA...

however, there a lot of subsequent generations who are caught up in the politicking of making money that has diluted the FMA as i am observing as a whole... there are too much outside protocals being adopted and that hinders the student... and this has put the student in a dangerous mindset... the student saying "i can't do it, but you should see my master/teacher, her can!"...

so what if your master can... great for him and i don't doubt it... unfortunately, he won't be there to help you in a real situation unless he can appear out of thin air... as the FMA is being marketed as "SELF DEFENSE," then let it go back to its original truth of defending oneself...

Cap

[Buwaya]

Don't associate with them. They're doing there thing, you can do your thing.

"there for the grace of god go I"

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Don't associate with them. They're doing there thing, you can do your thing.

"there for the grace of god go I"

very true... and i do appreciate your advice... now, since we do know this is happening, isn't their an accountabilty issue?... the addage: "knowledge is power" isn't good enough and half ass...

APPLYING THAT KNOWLEDGE is TRUE POWER...

[Buwaya]

Cap,

You've said alot. I'll get back to you on this.

Ingat.

[arnisador]

it seems, that some of these so-called guros/masters teach mean well, but cannot pull off any the moves in sparring--it becomes caveman hitting...


A lot of sparring takes place at largo, where options are somewhat more limited. I can't hope to pull off a disarm against a skilled opponent from that range. So, if they're sparring well but with a limited selection from their full repertoire, that doesn't bother me. If they aren't sparring well at all, that's different!

Compare what happens with stickgrapplers (e.g. many Dog Brothers matches), where they crash in and grapple. You tend to see a wider variety of techniques there.

Not every technique is necessarily sparring-oriented. When I spar, I tend to stay largo and use just a few techniques, But when I have been able to get to medio-to-corto, I've pulled off traps etc. It depends.

I grant that too many people don't spar. I don't know why. It hardly seems appropriate for the FMA, which has such a dueling history.

[WT_ATL]

Hi there,
It seems, like in all the other Traditional Martial Arts (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu etc), Eskrima sparring is usually done by the students and not with the higher ups, in particular the Advanced Guros and Masters...


Hi Jack,

I really don't think that this is true of most FMA instructors. I know of many that spar with their students or any one else that would like to try and test their skills. In fact some of the instructors below have recently entered tournaments, now thats putting themselves out there. The way I see it, it's a lose lose situation for them. If they win they were supposed to, if they lose, then you know the rest.

Tim Hartman (competed in Bakbakan tournament)
John Jacobo (competed in Bakbakan Live stick tournament )
Roger Agbulos (Always incorporates sparring with the students in all his seminars)
Myrlino Hufana (Always spars with his students in seminars)
Ryan Gruhn (Often tapes his sparring sessions with his students)
Many of the Sayoc instructors (watch any of the sama sama DVDs)
Burton Richardson (often spar with his students during class)
etc....

[Alex(ander Bautista Bayot France)]

I second Winston's opinion. ALL the FMA instructors I know, with the exception of just one, will spar with their students, or anyone else for that matter, in tournament or non-tournament settings. And if our students can score on us, good! It means we're doing our job (or we're awfully terrible --smile).

[JohnJ]

I am firm believer that if an instructor does not spar then that is due to his lack of confidence and/or skill NOT ego. Unless of course, he is physically unable i.e. age or severe handicap Quite often, you will hear that there is no need to prove anything or that sparring is not real. This is merely an excuse.

There are 2 things to consider when training to apply the techniques taught. Sparring is essential but chances are you will never pull off any of the more fancy moves due to the mindset the players have engaged in. In other words, it is a dueling approach which automatically sets you in a "stick and move" pace. Players will hit and get out because of the anticipation of getting hit, they may retract strikes etc. As a result, disarming, locks, blah, blah, blah are rare with the exception of a few methods. Although enganyos/baiting work very well. Sparring enhances timing, footwork, conditioning and develops the ability to control range to name. However, if you want to test certain techniques for real world application, simply break down attacks and increase them in numbers while maintaining intent. For example, similar to 1-2-3 step sparring; evade the first attack and then pressure test a particular method on the 2nd. There are many options to develop your techniques in a manner suitable for practical self-defense but the distinction in training must be emphasized.

I am 40 years old and will continue to spar weapons :sword2: & E-H till my body or brain cannot take it:eek:. This is the only true way to hone skills aside from a real situation. l always spar my students and make it a point to reach out to other instructors to set up sparring sessions. This is not always an easy task but most often it is welcomed.

JohnJ
www.swacom.com (http://www.swacom.com)

[Roger Agbulos]

Sparring is a good thing. It gives you the opprtunity to test your skill, build on your strenghts and overcome your weaknesses. Application of timing, non-telegraphic strikes, combat-cardio, economy of motion, speed & accuracy, power, split second decision making at every second of the fight, etc..., all essential in the execution of a clean technique.

When I train, I often ask myself "is this movement combat effective?"
If yes, I will work on that technique over and over and over till it becomes part of my muscle memory.

I encourage everyone to sparr as often as you can, but safely. Use the correct gears - FMA helmets & hockey gloves, SMAK-STIKS (they are the best). But do not take the weapon for granted like it is in a boxing match. You don't want that messing with you muscle memory build-up.

Once in while, you may shift to live sticks with lesser protection. You'll notice a change in the fighting behavior...

Good topic Captain Jack!

Roger

[JohnJ]

But do not take the weapon for granted like it is in a boxing match. You don't want that messing with you muscle memory build-up.


Pare'...here's where we may disagree. Please clarify? Are you speaking of some defensive mechanics i.e. bob & weave or strategies and concepts like movement in & out, counterstriking, footwork, combinations, set-ups & power. I would tend to believe that these aspects work best for stick-fighting.

John

[Rich Parsons]

Lots of good points.

I think people should spar.

I spar and tell those who are my juniors "Good" when they get a hit, or a good block based upon their timing.

As to my seniors I always enjoy training with them, even if it is just stick and move. I treat ever opportunity as a posible learning experience.

[Roger Agbulos]

JohnJ,
I agree that we may disagree... but exactly what is it that you are not agreeing about from my post? Maybe best to see the merits first before disagreeing...

[JohnJ]

I agree that we may disagree... but exactly what is it that you are not agreeing about from my post? Maybe best to see the merits first before disagreeing...

Hey Rog,

If your referring to the merits you listed, I saw them and concur. My comments were with regards to, "taking the weapon for granted like it is in a boxing match" in which I replied as follows:

Some defensive methods of boxing i.e. bob & weave do not apply well. However, strategies and concepts like movement in&out, counterstriking, footwork, combinations, set-ups & power much like boxing are essential to stickfighting.

[Pat OMalley]

I spar with my students all the time, when they are ready for it that is:EvilGrin: And they hit me and I hit them:EvilGrin: that is the way I was taught FMA and that s the way they wil teach there students.

Put it this way, I am 45 and I recently fought at the is Arnis World Invitational Championships in Manila and will quite happily admit that this young 21 year old Vietnamese guy caught me off guard on more than one occasion, he was younger, fitter and eager. But I loved every moment of it because I know next year if he is there is will come back older, but wiser.

If an instructor does not spar with his/her students it is for 2 reasons.

1. They are not ready yet.
2. They don't do real FMA.

Best regards

Pat

[Roger Agbulos]

JohnJ,

You were indeed refering to my comments "taking the weapon for granted like it is in a boxing match" . I may have jumped the gun here, kapatid, pasenya na...

I will share my opinion so that others may understand my position. The way I see it, if somebody is going to hit me with a club in the street, I am most likely to die because I won't have any protection on like a head gear, arm guard, hockey gloves, etc..., I will end up dead in a second when that weapon hits my skull. I am not a big fan of "exchange hittings" like what we see in most tournaments out there. No disrespect to these styles, it is just a matter of preference.

With that preference, the training methodology is based on fighting without getting hit by the opponent - because with a weapon, I might not have that second chance.

Let's keep this short for now. Other opinions welcome...

[Datu Tim Hartman]

JohnJ,

You were indeed refering to my comments "taking the weapon for granted like it is in a boxing match" . I may have jumped the gun here, kapatid, pasenya na...

I will share my opinion so that others may understand my position. The way I see it, if somebody is going to hit me with a club in the street, I am most likely to die because I won't have any protection on like a head gear, arm guard, hockey gloves, etc..., I will end up dead in a second when that weapon hits my skull. I am not a big fan of "exchange hittings" like what we see in most tournaments out there. No disrespect to these styles, it is just a matter of preference.

With that preference, the training methodology is based on fighting without getting hit by the opponent - because with a weapon, I might not have that second chance.

Let's keep this short for now. Other opinions welcome...
Excellent points kapatid!:cheers:

[JohnJ]

With that preference, the training methodology is based on fighting without getting hit by the opponent - because with a weapon, I might not have that second chance.

I absolutely agree that is why I pointed that strategies and concepts like explosive in & out movement, counterstriking, footwork and effective blocking is essential to stickfighting. It is this skillset that will prevent the careless "exchange hittings" seen in tounaments.

Another thing to consider is that quite often the mindset and goals of avid tournament participants is to simply win by points. There often lacks the "combat minset" and that is why it is often seen as a sloppy give & take approach.

JohnJ

[Brian R. VanCise]

Good points by all. Sparring with a weapon is very good and everyone should do it. However, sparring without thought of defense or thinking that you can take that hit is very, very dangerous when translated to the street. That type of mindset could get you in lots of trouble. However, having said that as long as everyone understands that it is an exercise then it is a great way to increase your skills and improve your ability to understand speed and distance!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Rocky]

Just my opinion here, but I think as an instructor you owe it to your students to spar with them how else can you gage them or cretique their abilities.

I am also a firm believer in Minimal protection. My instructor in Pekiti back in the early 80s was a firm beliver in a fencing mask knee pads elbow pads and nothing else, I believe to this day this is the only way to really spar, however I also prefer sparring in a confined area this makes you stand in there and block and swing instead of keeping too much distance and clashing to go to the ground immediatly, but how every you do it, I think an instructor must be willing to stand in there with his students and if an instructor is really blessed some day he will have a student beat him, that should be the goal of all instructors.


Rocky

[WT_ATL]

Hey kuya John and Roger,

Question for you. Both of you have a very technical and functional approach to your training. My question is in regards to sparring. When most people spar, they typically square off both having the same weapon of choice. This is typically not the case on the street. Consequently, do you feel that sparring with different weapons (i.e., short stick vs long, knife vs stick, empty hand vs weapon, etc...) is beneficial?

I realize that there are many drills that account for some of these scenarios, but I'm wondering if they are ever incorporated during sparring. When the speed and intent is hightened, and the movement is free flow.

--Winston

[JohnJ]

This is typically not the case on the street. do you feel that sparring with different weapons (i.e., short stick vs long, knife vs stick, empty hand vs weapon, etc...) is beneficial?

Absolutely! However, sparring is limited to attribute development such as utilization and/or controlling of range. It should not be the primary training methodology when developing functional life preservation skills. Functional is that which can be applied under stress with the least effort and maximum effectiveness or result. It must function at any given time, place and under various circumstances.

As you pointed out, sparring will pit 2 opponents from a square off position. Furthermore, there is general consent to engage. These two factors alone are uncommon in a self-defense situation. This is why I stress the distinction in training. While the 2 vastly different areas share common elements such adrenalin stress, unpredictability and aggression, it is still very important to train accordingly. Focus on principles over techniques since they are more universally applicable than techniques. Subsequently, bring in the elements most commonly associated with “real life” scenarios like the element of surprise and confined space to name a few. And then you can mix & match weapons, include common everyday objects and multiple opponents.

Hope this helps and is not over redundant to previous posts I've made.

JohnJ

[Roger Agbulos]

Kapatid Winston,

I agree with JohnJ’s postings – it’s all in there (don’t want to be redundant either).

So, it’s not all about sparring, isn’t it? It could just even be a drill on self-defense: empty hands vs. knife, from a hold-up position as an example. What is important here is that you are able to initiate techniques effectively & efficiently in real time. If not, I’ll drop that technique… don’t want to waste my time working out on things that’s not functional. Like I said earlier, don’t what it “messing with my muscle memory.”

You might want to check out my posting in the LAMECO segment about empty hands. FMA is such a beautiful and pragmatic art. It is even embraced by top-notched combat elite systems.Here's the thread:
FMA Talk (http://fmatalk.com/index.php)> FMA Arts, Styles and Families (http://fmatalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10)> Lameco (http://fmatalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17) -Empty hands Of Lameco Eskrima


I like what JojnJ said “focus on principles rather than techniques”. Later...

[WT_ATL]

Guys,

As always, wise advice.

Maraming Salamat,

Winston