CQC gun

[equilibrium]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=997156908802149881&hl=en

the paper bag is coming down with a #1 knife slash in icepick fashion..use your imagination.

[silat1]

The individual had no concept of not putting anything in front of the barrel when handling a weapon.. If you look closely, you will find where he put his empty hand in front of the barrel several times while doing the criss cross.. No concept of general firearms use was evident in the making of this movie.. Hopefully it wasn't any of our forumites.

:rules::schild24:





http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=997156908802149881&hl=en

the paper bag is coming down with a #1 knife slash in icepick fashion..use your imagination.

[equilibrium]

Gun safety rules? That is for guys that poke holes in targets at 15 or 25 yards. At close quarters with an opponent you can't do much without crossing yourself, you just have to have some techniques to cue when you shoot and when you don't.

This is advanced. Gun safety rules are for people who can't even figure out when their gun is loaded or not.

[silat1]

That is nothing like any cqb course that I have seen in my travels and training.. I was commenting that the arm was getting in front of the path of the muzzle.. I carry a weapon in the performance of my duties and have been to several military shooting courses that never dictated putting your arm in front of your weapon when firing it.. I was just stating that the firearms safety rules weren't even met.. IMHO any one who waves a weapon like that while firing is someone that I would really avoid on the range or even when social shooting, for my own safety sake.

[equilibrium]

Yeah, and anyone who swings a live blade around would be equally smart to stay away from.

Here are the top 3 from NRA site:

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.

How many of those do you really think apply if you are fighting for your life at close quarter?

Gun safety rules are meant to keep people safe for those around them or for themselves, not necessarily rules to help you defeat the opponent or deal with a situation where seconds make life or death. Read them again.

[silat1]

well, that is good as a start for understanding firearms use and safety..
Here are the rules we use in my organization and are used by several federal agencies.

1.Treat all weapons as if they are loaded
2.Keep a straight trigger finger until sights and muzzle are on target
3.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
4.Be sure of your target and what is beyond

From what I have viewed on this video, the bottom 3 rules were broken beyond any belief.. The individual muzzled himself several times when whipping the firearm in the X format.. The movement of the muzzle in the X pattern definitely was not what I call qualified as cqb training because if it was in a hot situation, any and all personnel on the sides and in the back of the individual would be in danger..
It's always nice to simulate different scenarios in your training, but when the use of a firearm comes into play, common sense would tell you to keep your muzzle pointed down range and not spin it around like some movie scene. Hollywood movie gun fu is fun to watch, but in a realistic situation, it should be left on the movie screen and not on the street

[PG Michael B]

Agreed Billy.... It is always so easy for people to speculate and say what is wrong or right..we both know that...it is a different story when it is for real in crunch time...I reserve comment on that...no need to start a pissing match over a subject that few know about. To each their own...just get it done..eh mate.

I was wondering why NO SPEED ROCK while using the pistol at a safer distance......looked like a 38 snubby..my question is why close to use the weapon and then back out...you were out to begin with. If your saying and I quote
the paper bag is coming down with a #1 knife slash in icepick fashion..use your imagination. First off I would not close...Murphys law tells me that..he has knife, I have pistol..distance is my friend.

Sorry I got to this thread extremely late. To each their own...I just prefer to use my piece at a distance, especially in the scenario shown.

[Killbot]

I've always thought you never strike with the gun because of slide and jamming issues. From what I've seen, and I'll qualify this statement that I've never done official cqb just stuff with friends from the military, is that your off hand gets used to create space if your gun isn't at the ready. Basically this guy was walking up to a target and then creationg space he just closed by walking forward. If you're caught by suprise with weapon not bearing on the target, you use a kick or shove with the off hand to make the space needed.

Besides, some of the angles his gun went off at we're laughably close to blowing his own head or foot off.

[silat1]

I had completely forgotten about this thread.. Just what I needed to see after a week of bull fecal matter at work.. Made me laugh with the video again,

Thanks for the chuckle

[arnisador]

After he draws the handgun, he moves in, towards the knife?

[PG Michael B]

Exactly my point.....you were at distance with the superior weapon within said range. Why go into the fray, into his range?...This to me makes zero sense. I have trained hand gun and have never seen this method as being palatable. I understand the mindset of adaptability but adaptability can only be accomplished with rock solid basics..and IMHO the basics were not there, and were as rock solid as a bowl of jello.

I also agree with killbot..some of those discharges we nearly tragedies waiting to happen.

[sjansen]

If you used a revolver or a gun with a compensator you could easily get burns from the sideblast out of the front of the cylinder on a revolver or the top of the gun on a compensated gun. You can burn skin and loose digits as well.

I own many guns and have literally thousands of hours shooting and what I saw was plain stupid.

Move away from the assailant and look for cover and concealment while firing with both hands on the weapon.

You don't use a sword like a stick and you don't use a stick like a knife so why use a gun with knifefighting techniques?

[arnisador]

Yeah, this is an "only-in-the-movies" technique.

[PG Michael B]

A....B one at that....dangerous way to work your hand gun skill sets, that's for dang sure. Not to big on packing my roscoe in my bermudas either....awful close to the mamma shaker if you know what I mean...and yanking it out at mach three with an itchy finger can have one singing soprano pretty dang quick.

[Killbot]

I guess there's always this:



http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8343/pb10ss.jpg

Then again, this might be it too:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5341/205669311.jpg

But, then again, why half-ass anything!
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3282/videogameopener480.jpg

[arnisador]

Heh, too much!

[equilibrium]

Moving in toward the knife. This is taken from a pekiti tirsia drill called segung lebo. Moving out is not always possible. If you cannot move out, you must move in. Once you have shot him a couple of times there is no reason to stay in. Hitting someone with a gun is good for empty guns and it won't cause a revolver to jam.

Safety versus survival. Safety rules or made to produce safety. Fighting techniques may violate safety rules to do the job. Safety rules may get in the way of survival.. (keep the gun in one place and the ammo in another..hold on a second, let me look behind you for a sec to make sure the it is safe to shoot this way)

Nobody has taught you this? Most teachings are shooting for the lowest common denominator.

[PG Michael B]

Moving in toward the knife. This is taken from a pekiti tirsia drill called segung lebo.
Yes I know what it is...but in this setting why move in..you had the dominant weapon which deems distance as a friend..at least that's what your clip presented.


Moving out is not always possible. If you cannot move out, you must move in.
Your right sometimes you can't move out...depending on environment..but that doesn't mean you have to move in...there are other ways to move is there not?


Once you have shot him a couple of times there is no reason to stay in. Hitting someone with a gun is good for empty guns and it won't cause a revolver to jam.
I would say if I shot him a couple of times the need to pistol whip him would be rare..also, If you are shooting him from point blank range I would think one should re access his personal radar system, if he gets this close the pooch has done been screwed...


Safety versus survival. Safety rules or made to produce safety.
Horse CRAP! The two are married...from military training to private academies they all marry the two. Safety rules are there for reasons..YOUR SAFETY..with your ideas people would be getting whacked over silly mistakes...don't you think their are rules one follows when house clearing, when working tandem, when doing withdrawals..from vehicles etc etc etc..to say Safety Vs. Survival and believe they don't marry truly shows a lack of depth in your over all game.


Fighting techniques may violate safety rules to do the job. Safety rules may get in the way of survival.. (keep the gun in one place and the ammo in another..hold on a second, let me look behind you for a sec to make sure the it is safe to shoot this way)
Of course things change on the fly but I have never in my life with all my weaponry training..via Uncle Sam..various academies etc. have ever heard any instructor worth their salt simply shite can the rules of safety...they go hand in hand with the craft of weaponry. I agree that weaponry separated from ammo is silly..but to not know your alley and start cutting loose because you feel and I quote "Fighting techniques may violate safety rules to do the job" is to me as haphazard as can be.

Nobody has taught you this? Most teachings are shooting for the lowest common denominator.
No I have never been taught half baked silliness when it pertains to hand guns, shot guns or rifles. On the contrary every person I have trained with has taught simplicity with intent, to make sure safety is followed, to make sure you get the job done in the realm of which your dealing, not fantasy..and definitely not to damn near blow my own hands off.

Let me ask you, how many gun fights you been in? Or are you begging for the day?

I will be straight and honest here....that video you posted is to me a WHAT NOT TO DO feature.. I hope this isn't the stuff your touting and teaching to thers as practical, tactical handgun combatives..because it is not. Mark my words if you keep jacking around with your pistols in this fashion your gonna blow your damn hand into pieces...you came real close in this one as I and many other people here noticed.

To each their own but sooner or later common sense has to come into play..and for your sake I hope sooner finds ya.

Moderators I don't want to look like an A-Hole here but this is a very touchy subject..and one of importance...to place videos such as this out to the public is to me unconscionable...to think some other person may think this is cool and try it is sad....if I sound gruff then so be it...but I won't hold my tongue when I see bad tactics...and these tactics no matter if they stemmed from Pekiti or not are bad....

A word of advise...show your video to Lewis Arbuckle, Scott Reitz, Clint Smith etc...all top notch firearm trainers See what they say.I bet they cringe.

If this is your way so be it...but to tout it as cutting edge or the way is wrong!

Jeff Cooper turns in his grave over this one.....

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am not putting my hand in front of the muzzle like that.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Now I could see utilizing your off hand to fend off someone high while keeping your firearm low (belt level) out of the range of your defense and firing. We covered this in several tactical LEO classes that I attended.

[Shaun]

The clip looked to me like he got his weapons mixed up(pistol,not blade),and that he nearly blew his hand off.

[Jack Latorre]

Hello All--

I am of the opinion that an educated shopper and practitioner of firearms training will have (and already had) debunked the technique shown. However if folks wish to practice the technique despite what is said, then what can be done but an internet "shrug of the shoulders"?

I practice Pekiti-Tirsia.

I practice sagang labo.

I would never attempt this drill/application with a firearm for all the reasons stated. It is a good drill, but not one designed with firearms in mind. Stick? Yes. Sword? Yes. Knife? Yes. Perhaps pieces of the drill may be extrapolated but not in the way demonstrated. And I would not want the general public thinking that Pekiti-Tirsia practitioners have no clue how to use a firearm responsibly....because many do use firearms responsibly and effectively, regardless of affiliation.

The topic of responsibility that PG Blackgrave brings up is a salient one...one that should resonate whenever techniques are shown on video to the public.

The clip is worth showing however, even if only for folks to make their own opinions known in the most civil ways.

Respectfully,

Jack A. Latorre

[equilibrium]

pedestrians.

You guys are the same ones saying I can't do high retention with an auto since my shirt is going to get caught in the slide. I have done it quite a bit and it doesn't happen. Just because I have many times done what you say is impossible doesn't mean anything.

Segung lebo moves in period.... Don't tell me to leave and find cover or be like the gun idiots and just blast away thinking that bullets can safely put down a guy plunging a knife in pakal at close range before he sticks it in me. I think the americans learned that in the phillipines a long time ago.

I have shot that same revolver thru the pocket in my jeans(knee, anti grab or no time to pull it out) Maybe I am the pathfinder who can tell you what is possible. You feel uncertainty the first time you do something, like grab the slide of an automatic to stop the slide. After you do it a few times, it is like childs play. And then you post it and people tell you it is dangerous and you will hurt your hand big time. Nonsense. Gun courses are super concerned about liability and they also teach to the lowest common denominator.

This is advanced so treat it that way.

When I roll my knives in sak sak they are far apart. When I see tuhon gaje do it they are quite close together. Should I tell him that what he is doing is impossible, dangerous or irresponsible? Or should I realize he knows what he can and cannot do and has probably been doing it since before I was potty trained.

As for shooting my arm off, I have a method to deal with that. And let me tell you, if there is another person involved you are not in control of when your arm might cross the muzzle, so you need to have a method of shooting that deals with when you can shoot and when you won't.

Anyway, I reject the comments and stand behind this technique. I wouldn't teach a class to beginners on this and then do range time with them though...

[Jack Latorre]

"Pedestrians" are those who walk.

People who chose not to shoot their own hand off are called "sensible".

[equilibrium]

Here is one reason why you move towards the knife in Segung lebo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgSiS4QzOF8

[equilibrium]

And actually, it appears in the video that I am crossing my arm with the muzzle. I am not, it only appears that way.

Since I am moving the gun like a knife, as I move the gun back and forth like a thrust the muzzle moves away from the arm as it goes over and under. I did it with a laser and could post it if it was worth the time. (actually I have a method to deal with that but in this case I wasn't)

You guys like to criticize but you really are just making snap judgements with without much research or consideration.

This will probably be my last post on this subject since with these attitudes I am not interested much in sharing stuff I am working on.

[PG Michael B]

To each their own..if you wanna do it then do it....some people like Shipleys..others prefer Krispy Kreme....me I'm a Winchels guy.

[silat1]

We criticise because we know that kind of gun play will get you seriously injured or injure the people who are on the range with you if you have spectators.. You never use a firearm the same way you do a knife,, That is just common sense..

As far as not researching what we are talking about, I can tell you that if I did anything like that, I would have my butt handed to me as I was heading out the door and heading to the unemployment line.. We are taught firearms safety and have strict rules of engagement that dictate when to use our weapons.. If we even pull our weapon unnecessarily, we are downloaded and suspended pending investigation.. As I had stated prior, I have been through several cqc and weapons handling classes in my job and on my own dime.. If I handled a weapon like that, it would result in some serious legal issues..


Reject the comments as you wish, but take it from those who have been involved with the use of firearms in situations where their life was on the line be it street defense or in a law enforcement related incident..

That application or any type of situation that you use that type of application is just setting you up for a long battle with the judicial community.. I hope you have a minimum of 50K to pay for your lawyer and any bail that you might need when you are pulled in for the ramifications of your actions while using that " training drill"

Have a nice day




And actually, it appears in the video that I am crossing my arm with the muzzle. I am not, it only appears that way.

Since I am moving the gun like a knife, as I move the gun back and forth like a thrust the muzzle moves away from the arm as it goes over and under. I did it with a laser and could post it if it was worth the time. (actually I have a method to deal with that but in this case I wasn't)

You guys like to criticize but you really are just making snap judgements with without much research or consideration.

This will probably be my last post on this subject since with these attitudes I am not interested much in sharing stuff I am working on.

[silat1]

Jack,
They are also called Lefty as a result of shooting their hand, or called Inmate as they are hauled off to prison..




"Pedestrians" are those who walk.

People who chose not to shoot their own hand off are called "sensible".

[arnisador]

And actually, it appears in the video that I am crossing my arm with the muzzle. I am not, it only appears that way.


Mr. Hubbard photographed me this weekend at the WMAA (http://www.wmarnis.com) Camp. It took about eight takes with various weapons because each time the photo made it look like I was cutting myself or a similar problem. One time it looked like I was punching my own stick. It drove me nuts!

[equilibrium]

You guys were right and I was wrong. Here I have corrected my gun "errors."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MigUr9i-2uw

[London]

nice! you just need ear muffs and an orange traffic safety vest

[sjansen]

Moving in toward the knife. This is taken from a pekiti tirsia drill called segung lebo. Moving out is not always possible. If you cannot move out, you must move in. Once you have shot him a couple of times there is no reason to stay in. Hitting someone with a gun is good for empty guns and it won't cause a revolver to jam.

Safety versus survival. Safety rules or made to produce safety. Fighting techniques may violate safety rules to do the job. Safety rules may get in the way of survival.. (keep the gun in one place and the ammo in another..hold on a second, let me look behind you for a sec to make sure the it is safe to shoot this way)

Nobody has taught you this? Most teachings are shooting for the lowest common denominator.

A quick point of correction, revolvers don't jam, that's why it took so long for police departments to use autos. They work every time you pull the trigger and you can't stop them or jam them by grabbing the gun like you can an auto.