Knife throwing methods of Kuntao...

[Ron Kosakowski]

I did not know where to put this clip. We need a Kuntao section in here. Its the only traditional FMA missing from this forum. Due to the fact Kuntao, Kun Tao, Kuntaw or Kuntau (however you want to spell it) is the oldest Filipino martial art which influenced all the other styles in the Philippines, there should be a place for it here. I guess I got two topics going at once in this section.

Anyway, check out the knife throwing methods of Kuntao Dumpag. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDoIzvJvew&feature=channel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDoIzvJvew&feature=channel_page)
This is an area of self defense we worked on for footwork and power in striking believe it or not. Check this out and let me know your thoughts on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDoIzvJvew&feature=channel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDoIzvJvew&feature=channel_page)

[arnisador]

We're always happy to create a new forum if we see people posting about a subject! Start a few kuntao posts and see what happens.

_Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[R. Mike Snow]

I wonder if the Filipino Penchak Silat practitioners would be kind enough to share anything with us on a Silat section. After all, the world champion Silat Team is from the Philippines. I also wonder whom is going to take the late great Hodji Yasser's place as coach? Even though there will NOT ever be anyone that can truly replace him. However, the Navadisha gentlemen have provided us with some info in the past and it is authentic Maranao Penchak Silat, not the made up stuff........

[Ron Kosakowski]

We're always happy to create a new forum if we see people posting about a subject! Start a few kuntao posts and see what happens.

_Arnisador
-FMAT AdminI would be glad to talk about Kuntao more often. I have spent most of my life in the style and have had many adventures with it.

I agree with Mike Snow also...there is a lot of Silat in the Philippines as well. Many do not realize all this because finding real Kuntao or Silat in the Philippines is a dangerous trip to take. I know that for a fact from experience. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[silat1]

:nixweiss:

[tim_stl]

Due to the fact Kuntao, Kun Tao, Kuntaw or Kuntau (however you want to spell it) is the oldest Filipino martial art which influenced all the other styles in the Philippines,

how's that?



tim

[Ron Kosakowski]

how's that?



timThe elders of Kuntao claim their style is up to 2000 to 2700 years old. Silat being a Chinese word from one of the dialects is as old as the first Chinese settlements in the Philippines. The words, "Eskrima or Arnis" are not even 400 years old...in the Philippines.

[Navadisha]

But defining which combination of letters used to "name" something does not define or clarify the historical lineage of what influenced what techniques.
If one were pinning down what century a term came into usage, that's one thing.
Stating that a term existed first and therefore must have influenced the techniques of a later sytem, that's a jump not based on anthropoligic analysis.

[Ron Kosakowski]

But defining which combination of letters used to "name" something does not define or clarify the historical lineage of what influenced what techniques.
If one were pinning down what century a term came into usage, that's one thing.
Stating that a term existed first and therefore must have influenced the techniques of a later sytem, that's a jump not based on anthropoligic analysis.
I am not claiming to be a scientist in hoplology...I am going on observation and what the elders in Kuntao have told me and I have met a few of them, including my own teacher. I see a lot of similarities in technique and footwork. All styles have to have a root. Eskrima, Arnis and Kali have more than one root but it has some technique here and there lookig similar to Kuntao. All martial arts share pretty much the same idealology due to the fact there are only so many ways to kill, cripple and evade. Which again brings us to that root I was referring to.

I see a lot of technique in Dumog that looks like Kuntao technique. I have done quite a bit of research in both areas over the years...hence my observations. Plus like I said, what I have been told by Kuntao elders.

[silat1]

The Human body only moves specific ways.. Irregardless of what you train in and what you are told by "elders" or senior people, a punch is still a punch, a kick is still a kick and grappling or walking are the same irregardless of body shape or culture.. I could state that I am one of the "elders" of Kuntao in the states, yet I don't believe a whole lot of the hype that is coming out about kuntao nowadays.. Some of the so called Kuntaoers are using concepts from different arts and yet calling it Kuntao/Kuntaw/Kuntau. I tell my people that Kuntao is very individualistic and if they see something from another art that fits their needs, take it and incorporate it, yet give respect to the art inwhich you picked it up at and not call it Kuntao.. Kuntao is just an identifier for a fighting system that originated in China, yet if you read Draeger's book on the fighting arts of Indonesia, you will find that the history of Kuntao that is covered in there is split into two different regions of China which are the Fukien/Hokkien (southern) and the Shantung or northern style which emphasis the use of long ranging applications and a lot more use of the legs instead of the southern styles of Kuntao which are more hand oriented due to the general mass of cities and the tight environment in which the people are put together and survive.. Kuntao is just an identifier for a fighting system, not all individuals have the experience of spending years in the system and have knowledge from the source.. But in my years of traveling in the Philippines and experiencing different systems of the FMA, I still take the advice of one of my old military acquaintances which was " check and verify" the source before telling what others say in oral conversation.. Remember a conversation is interpeted differently by the individuals involved, especially in the type written mode..

[MPC1257]

This KunTao discussion is interesting, but I was wondering what people thought of the knife throwing video. I used to "play" with throwing knives when I was much younger, but I just threw the knife overhand at a target.

Do any of you other FMAers practice throwing knives?
If you do, do you have particular training methods that are significantly different than
Ron's?

[arnisador]

My art (Modern Arnis) doesn't teach knife-throwing.

[sharon.gmc]

nicely put silat1. . .

[Ron Kosakowski]

The Human body only moves specific ways.. Irregardless of what you train in and what you are told by "elders" or senior people, a punch is still a punch, a kick is still a kick and grappling or walking are the same irregardless of body shape or culture.. I could state that I am one of the "elders" of Kuntao in the states, yet I don't believe a whole lot of the hype that is coming out about kuntao nowadays.. Some of the so called Kuntaoers are using concepts from different arts and yet calling it Kuntao/Kuntaw/Kuntau. I tell my people that Kuntao is very individualistic and if they see something from another art that fits their needs, take it and incorporate it, yet give respect to the art inwhich you picked it up at and not call it Kuntao.. Kuntao is just an identifier for a fighting system that originated in China, yet if you read Draeger's book on the fighting arts of Indonesia, you will find that the history of Kuntao that is covered in there is split into two different regions of China which are the Fukien/Hokkien (southern) and the Shantung or northern style which emphasis the use of long ranging applications and a lot more use of the legs instead of the southern styles of Kuntao which are more hand oriented due to the general mass of cities and the tight environment in which the people are put together and survive.. Kuntao is just an identifier for a fighting system, not all individuals have the experience of spending years in the system and have knowledge from the source.. But in my years of traveling in the Philippines and experiencing different systems of the FMA, I still take the advice of one of my old military acquaintances which was " check and verify" the source before telling what others say in oral conversation.. Remember a conversation is interpeted differently by the individuals involved, especially in the type written mode..
I have been in Kuntao since the mid 70's. I have never seen anything like it. At this point, I may be considered one of the elders in Kuntao also.

I understand where you are coming from...people talk and others listen. How true it is, no one knows till it is written in a book...I guess. And there is a lot of blending going on. I see it all over the place. Very little Kuntao has impressed me out there from what I have seen so far in person, on video, on web sites. The people I have met that I looked up to did impress me though. Witrh their technique and the way they move. So yes, we can say take what people say with a grain of salt...but not everything everyone says. Some do have some truth. How to prove that, I don't know. I know I like what I saw with the elders I met.

[Navadisha]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;37941]I have been in Kuntao since the mid 70's. I have never seen anything like it. At this point, I may be considered one of the elders in Kuntao also.



By who? You can't call yourself an elder, others do it.

[Navadisha]

people talk and others listen. How true it is, no one knows till it is written in a book...I guess. And there is a lot of blending going on. I see it all over the place. Very little Kuntao has impressed me out there from what I have seen so far in person, on video, on web sites. The people I have met that I looked up to did impress me though. Witrh their technique and the way they move. So yes, we can say take what people say with a grain of salt...but not everything everyone says. Some do have some truth. How to prove that, I don't know. I know I like what I saw with the elders I met.

All your statements here can be turned back toward you as well.

Also, those saying nothing are also saying something. Depends how you choose to interpret it.

[arnisador]

All your statements here can be turned back toward you as well.

Eh?

[Ron Kosakowski]

Eh?
I agree...huh?

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;37941]I have been in Kuntao since the mid 70's. I have never seen anything like it. At this point, I may be considered one of the elders in Kuntao also.



By who? You can't call yourself an elder, others do it.
An elder is not a "Grand Master" ranking. I never made any such claim to some GM rank. It is the hours within the amount of years Ihave put into it. 3/4 of my life was spent in Kuntao.

I guess with all the hype in martial arts, I can see the second guessing my stuff. You would have to see it for your self in person to come to a conclusion on it. Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje likes my Kuntao. Larry Hartsell really liked it...there are a few others not so popular that liked it when they saw it. I have 3 youtube videos on Kuntao showing bits and pieces of what I am willing to give away. Judge it from there.

[Ron Kosakowski]

This KunTao discussion is interesting, but I was wondering what people thought of the knife throwing video. I used to "play" with throwing knives when I was much younger, but I just threw the knife overhand at a target.

Do any of you other FMAers practice throwing knives?
If you do, do you have particular training methods that are significantly different than Ron's?
Yes, back to the knife throwing thread.

Knife throwing in any style is a secondary sub system. In extreme circumstances it can be used. Though, you don't want to throw away a valuable weapon unless you really have to or you have a back up of some sort. If you notice, there is body positioning and foot work in throwing for evasive purposes. Its cool the way its done. Different than just target hitting ewhere they really don't move. Pluse, most target throwers use a softer target. I practice on a hard oak target to develop power.

I am not sure if I mentioned this earlier, throwing is supposed to help develop power and speed for striking also. I can see that as a logical training method. I always took knife throwing deeper than most did in my Kuntao brotherhood. I find it very relaxing.

[themorningstar]

[quote=Navadisha;37946]
Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje likes my Kuntao. Larry Hartsell really liked it...



Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje is the inheritor and caretaker of Pekiti Tirsia Kali-one of the greatest fma systems- but he is not a kuntao instructor.
The Great Larry Hartsell (Rest in Peace) was one of the world's premier grappling/jkd teachers- but still not a kuntao instructor.

your statement is the equivalent of someone saying "my mommy says...."
now if you present your statement with someone who is a kuntao exponent then perhaps it will hold more weight ( im not saying GT Gaje's or the very missed Larry Hartsell's words don't hold weight- but the fact remains they are not kuntao instructors. )

[Labantayo]

After spending time looking for Kuntao videos on your site, all I found was a JKD Kali/JiuJitsu blend video labeled as Kuntao.
Is that the Kuntao the Maranao and Magui "kuntaoist" approved?

Who did GM Rossi learn Kuntao from during the war?

[silat1]

Before this escalates into a flame war, I want to put a stop to it before it gets to that point.. This is not what I wanted for responses to this thread.. You have to remember than Kuntao is just an identifier to a specific combatives system/s that I have been able to train with over my past experiences in the Philippines and Taiwan.. Kuntao is nothing more than an identifier which has chinese, indonesian and filipino influences in it.. In some dialects of China, Kuntao is the same as Chuan fa which literally translates to fist way, just as kenpo karate translates into law of the fist.. In my research of Kuntao, it has been pointed out that Kuntao is also an old name for generalizing the older Chinese forms of martial arts.. According to Draeger in his "Weapons and fighting arts of the Indonesian archipelago", There are two general cateories of Kuntao, one from Shantung (northern) and another from Fukien (southern), These systems vary quite a lot due to the population that lives in these regions of China.. It has been my privilege to be able to train in different variations of Kuntao over the last 30 plus years, yet I am still learning.. I am not an expert and although I have been fortunate to train with some very skilled and experienced practitioners, I am not a "reliable" subject expert on another individual's teacher or system that they have been able to train with under another a different kuntao instructor.. As I have put it out so many times in the past, Kuntao is a very individualistic combatives system, and there are more variations of it as they are as many different snow flakes or grains of sand, no two are a like as they are personal interpetitions of what the individual chose to focus on..

[themorningstar]

Before this escalates into a flame war, I want to put a stop to it before it gets to that point.. This is not what I wanted for responses to this thread.. You have to remember than Kuntao is just an identifier to a specific combatives system/s that I have been able to train with over my past experiences in the Philippines and Taiwan.. Kuntao is nothing more than an identifier which has chinese, indonesian and filipino influences in it.. In some dialects of China, Kuntao is the same as Chuan fa which literally translates to fist way, just as kenpo karate translates into law of the fist.. In my research of Kuntao, it has been pointed out that Kuntao is also an old name for generalizing the older Chinese forms of martial arts.. According to Draeger in his "Weapons and fighting arts of the Indonesian archipelago", There are two general cateories of Kuntao, one from Shantung (northern) and another from Fukien (southern), These systems vary quite a lot due to the population that lives in these regions of China.. It has been my privilege to be able to train in different variations of Kuntao over the last 30 plus years, yet I am still learning.. I am not an expert and although I have been fortunate to train with some very skilled and experienced practitioners, I am not a "reliable" subject expert on another individual's teacher or system that they have been able to train with under another a different kuntao instructor.. As I have put it out so many times in the past, Kuntao is a very individualistic combatives system, and there are more variations of it as they are as many different snow flakes or grains of sand, no two are a like as they are personal interpetitions of what the individual chose to focus on..

you did not want this to turn into a flame war,and yet you write as if you speak on behalf of kuntao practicioners as an "elder" of kuntao.
first you say you can be considered an "elder" of kuntao- yet now you write that you are not an expert nor a reliable subject expert- but your previous sentences seek to claim otherwise by providing explanations and definitions on the history, origins and focus of kuntao.
do you speak on behalf of practicioners of kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw with mindanao/sulu origins?
or are you speaking on behalf of philippine kungfu/karate later renamed kuntaw?
have you trained in kuntao/kuntao/kuntaw with mindanao/sulu origin?
i seem to notice that the references in your research you have made in regard to your definitions of kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw seem to come from either indonesian or chinese origins. i do not see any reference from the philippines and especially mindanao/sulu in your post.
you state that you have studied and trained in kuntao in the philippines- will you clarify if that is of the philippine kungfu/karate-lanada/maharlika lineage or/and if that includes mindanao/sulu training so that your statement can be clarified on who's kuntao you are speaking of in regards to your statements.

[MPC1257]

This KunTao discussion is interesting, but I was wondering what people thought of the knife throwing video. I used to "play" with throwing knives when I was much younger, but I just threw the knife overhand at a target.

Do any of you other FMAers practice throwing knives?
If you do, do you have particular training methods that are significantly different than
Ron's?

As I originally posted, I am interested in hearing if other FMA practicioners work on knife throwing.
And if so what might your training methods be?

[blindside]

you did not want this to turn into a flame war,and yet you write as if you speak on behalf of kuntao practicioners as an "elder" of kuntao.
first you say you can be considered an "elder" of kuntao- yet now you write that you are not an expert nor a reliable subject expert- but your previous sentences seek to claim otherwise by providing explanations and definitions on the history, origins and focus of kuntao.

You have the wrong poster, Bill/Silat1 didn't say any such thing. Read the thread again.

[silat1]

I wrote that I could be considered an "elder" of Kuntao, as I was teaching Kuntao/Kuntaw in the states in 1975, even before a lot of the individuals who are teaching it now were even thinking about training in it.. I was affiliated with the Maharlika Kuntaw group for more than 20 yrs, but when I started training in it, we were called Maharlika Kuntaw Kungfu, which then was a mixture of the chinese, indonesian and filipino combatives.. When I went back to the Philippines in the late 70s, the Karate type of forms were being taught and the whole system had changed to be more of a karate system.. I learned the system that had been revamped, yet coming from a Chinese Kuntao background that I had trained in Taiwan with, I stayed with the more fluid system as I was originally taught.. Since I was with the Lanada Kuntaw group for so many years and I left due to personal disagreements and other circumstances that I won't go into here..
I stayed with the Chinese influences due to personal preferences, yet I still teach the Filipino eskrima arts that I have trained in and achieved instructor quals.. They were out of the Kuntaw/Kuntao realm as that is the way I chose to develop my program for my specific clientel as I don't teach commercially and most of my students are referred to me by people who have known me for years..

I don't speak for any of the Kuntaw groups out of mindanao or sulu regions as my training within Kuntao has been more of a personal preference for the chinese influences, but as a recognized Tulisan or renegade instructor of the old Maharlika Kuntaw system, I speak from my personal experiences with this system.



you did not want this to turn into a flame war,and yet you write as if you speak on behalf of kuntao practicioners as an "elder" of kuntao.
first you say you can be considered an "elder" of kuntao- yet now you write that you are not an expert nor a reliable subject expert- but your previous sentences seek to claim otherwise by providing explanations and definitions on the history, origins and focus of kuntao.
do you speak on behalf of practicioners of kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw with mindanao/sulu origins?
or are you speaking on behalf of philippine kungfu/karate later renamed kuntaw?
have you trained in kuntao/kuntao/kuntaw with mindanao/sulu origin?
i seem to notice that the references in your research you have made in regard to your definitions of kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw seem to come from either indonesian or chinese origins. i do not see any reference from the philippines and especially mindanao/sulu in your post.
you state that you have studied and trained in kuntao in the philippines- will you clarify if that is of the philippine kungfu/karate-lanada/maharlika lineage or/and if that includes mindanao/sulu training so that your statement can be clarified on who's kuntao you are speaking of in regards to your statements.

[arnisador]

you did not want this to turn into a flame war


I'm sure that none of us want that.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[themorningstar]

I wrote that I could be considered an "elder" of Kuntao, as I was teaching Kuntao/Kuntaw in the states in 1975, even before a lot of the individuals who are teaching it now were even thinking about training in it.. I was affiliated with the Maharlika Kuntaw group for more than 20 yrs, but when I started training in it, we were called Maharlika Kuntaw Kungfu, which then was a mixture of the chinese, indonesian and filipino combatives.. When I went back to the Philippines in the late 70s, the Karate type of forms were being taught and the whole system had changed to be more of a karate system.. I learned the system that had been revamped, yet coming from a Chinese Kuntao background that I had trained in Taiwan with, I stayed with the more fluid system as I was originally taught.. Since I was with the Lanada Kuntaw group for so many years and I left due to personal disagreements and other circumstances that I won't go into here..
I stayed with the Chinese influences due to personal preferences, yet I still teach the Filipino eskrima arts that I have trained in and achieved instructor quals.. They were out of the Kuntaw/Kuntao realm as that is the way I chose to develop my program for my specific clientel as I don't teach commercially and most of my students are referred to me by people who have known me for years..

I don't speak for any of the Kuntaw groups out of mindanao or sulu regions as my training within Kuntao has been more of a personal preference for the chinese influences, but as a recognized Tulisan or renegade instructor of the old Maharlika Kuntaw system, I speak from my personal experiences with this system.

thank you very much for generous and honest answer,
i am kindly requesting you clarify one last point

do you have any training in the kuntao/kuntau/kuntaw arts of mindanao or sulu? and if so please clarify since you do not state one way or another.

thank you.

[silat1]

I have not trained with any of the instructors of Mindanao or Sulu to be perfectly straight.. I have not trained with the Tausug or Maranao groups of that region and although at one point I was told that my old alliance with the Maharlika Kuntaw Kungfu was from the Tausugs, I have never stated (to the best of my knowledge) that I was teaching anything even remotely associated with the tribes of the region and if I did, I was quick to correct the statement once I found out the truth... Most of my Kuntao/Kuntaw training has been with the Chinese systems and the systems that are called Kuntaw in the central Luzon area, but as a result of the findings of my research within my former association with the system mentioned above, I chose to stay with the blade and stick arts of the Philippines and who do not use any form of Kuntaw spelling in their system.. I hope to get some exposure to the Kuntaw and silat systems of the Mindanao region some day, but due to the nature of my job, my travels to the southern regions of the Philippines are limited due to restrictions by the powers to be that are in charge.. The last time I was in Mindanao was in the late 70s while on a medcap mission with the USAF along with the AFP where we were called in to take care of a cholera outbreak as part of our joint operations.. I did have the chance to go to Cagayan De Oro a couple of times in support of the military base we had there at one time and also helped treat the citizens of the local area with the medcap teams that we had assigned

[Ron Kosakowski]

After spending time looking for Kuntao videos on your site, all I found was a JKD Kali/JiuJitsu blend video labeled as Kuntao.
Is that the Kuntao the Maranao and Magui "kuntaoist" approved?

Who did GM Rossi learn Kuntao from during the war?
With all due respect, I have to say that you do not know anything about JKD or Jiu jitsu. Nor do you know anything about Kuntao obviously. I have to say that your comments on this cannot be accepted. If you think that this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwKu_UzwQk or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxzNkYJ47U looks like JKD, Kali or Jiu jitsu...how can I accept your opinion here?

However, this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hukqFbyWJQE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hukqFbyWJQE) was put up by ESPY-TV...it was a seminar I did back in 1995 blending all the different styles I teach together. I used to sometimes teach a blend of styles...I don't do that anymore. Unless that is the only video you saw?

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;37952]



Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje is the inheritor and caretaker of Pekiti Tirsia Kali-one of the greatest fma systems- but he is not a kuntao instructor.
The Great Larry Hartsell (Rest in Peace) was one of the world's premier grappling/jkd teachers- but still not a kuntao instructor.

your statement is the equivalent of someone saying "my mommy says...."
now if you present your statement with someone who is a kuntao exponent then perhaps it will hold more weight ( im not saying GT Gaje's or the very missed Larry Hartsell's words don't hold weight- but the fact remains they are not kuntao instructors. )
You would be surprised what Grand tuhon leo Gaje knows about...the same goes for the late Larry hartsell. I am and was close to both of them so I know what they are into. No, they are not Kuntao teachers but they both know about Kuntao one way or another. Larry mostly understood the Indonesian version through Guro Dan Inosanto and Willem DeThours.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Before this escalates into a flame war, I want to put a stop to it before it gets to that point.. This is not what I wanted for responses to this thread.. You have to remember than Kuntao is just an identifier to a specific combatives system/s that I have been able to train with over my past experiences in the Philippines and Taiwan.. Kuntao is nothing more than an identifier which has chinese, indonesian and filipino influences in it.. In some dialects of China, Kuntao is the same as Chuan fa which literally translates to fist way, just as kenpo karate translates into law of the fist.. In my research of Kuntao, it has been pointed out that Kuntao is also an old name for generalizing the older Chinese forms of martial arts.. According to Draeger in his "Weapons and fighting arts of the Indonesian archipelago", There are two general cateories of Kuntao, one from Shantung (northern) and another from Fukien (southern), These systems vary quite a lot due to the population that lives in these regions of China.. It has been my privilege to be able to train in different variations of Kuntao over the last 30 plus years, yet I am still learning.. I am not an expert and although I have been fortunate to train with some very skilled and experienced practitioners, I am not a "reliable" subject expert on another individual's teacher or system that they have been able to train with under another a different kuntao instructor.. As I have put it out so many times in the past, Kuntao is a very individualistic combatives system, and there are more variations of it as they are as many different snow flakes or grains of sand, no two are a like as they are personal interpetitions of what the individual chose to focus on..
Kuntao translates to Fisy Way in Chinese and Indonesia. In the Philippines it translates as "to be a man" by the elders of Kuntao from the Marinao tribes.

I can see why there can be controvercy over me having Kuntao. My teacher had learned his in Mindanao going back after WW2. He first learned an abridged version of it during the war, then went to complete his learning after obviously taking a liking to what he had learned in the abridged format. I am the only one that ever learned the whole system Joe Rossi had.

Another part I take in this is what GT Leo Gaje had done for me. I am writing a book on Kuntao so i wanted to explore more about Kuntao and gain some contacts to continue my own education and complete the book. GT Leo risked his life to bring me where he brought me to accomplish this. We had a few close calls where we almost got killed to do this. By the way, he wrote a big blog on his web site on this exact subject in case you are in doubt. Anyway, I remember wondering if I was ever going to see my kids again. I am adventurous but that area is dangerous and worse now a days that it was 5 years ago. On the other hand, it was worth it. i got some good contacts there which I remain in contact with. I got to see a similar but different version of Kuntao.

Right now, there are some elders helping me write the history of Kuntao. There is a history out there that is not accurate and these people are adament about straightening that out. So am I...you will have to wait for the book to be published to see what it is.

Bill...you say you are not an expert as a reliable sourse...I hear you there...I am not either. If it were not for me taking these chances and meeting these people, I would have to rely on what is on the web for my information. Kuntao info is always kept very secretive. My teacher was like that...greedy with his style...they all are. I am also. I look for loyalty and I do not teach just anyone who walks in the door. If they are brawler types, I send them to the JKD/Grappling classes.

I am not used to my Kuntao being questioned. Though, I welcome it because I understand. Being a caucasion with such a sophisticated style IS unusual. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif

[Navadisha]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;38068]With all due respect, I have to say that you do not know anything about JKD or Jiu jitsu. Nor do you know anything about Kuntao obviously. I have to say that your comments on this cannot be accepted. If you think that this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwKu_UzwQk or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxzNkYJ47U looks like JKD, Kali or Jiu jitsu...how can I accept your opinion here?


Ron, how can you make a statement like "you do now know anything" with anything close to due respect?

And you've now clarified my statement earlier that what you say can be said about you.
Maybe there are others who feel that if those videos are what you think is a clear definition of Kuntao, how can they accept your opinion?

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;38068]With all due respect, I have to say that you do not know anything about JKD or Jiu jitsu. Nor do you know anything about Kuntao obviously. I have to say that your comments on this cannot be accepted. If you think that this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwKu_UzwQk or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxzNkYJ47U looks like JKD, Kali or Jiu jitsu...how can I accept your opinion here?


Ron, how can you make a statement like "you do now know anything" with anything close to due respect?

And you've now clarified my statement earlier that what you say can be said about you.
Maybe there are others who feel that if those videos are what you think is a clear definition of Kuntao, how can they accept your opinion?

Like I said, I cannot accept your opinion. You are here to put down my Kuntao knowledge or skill or whatever. Thats why I feel your opinion is useless here. You said it looks like JKD...I have 3 prestigious ranks in JKD from 3 different teachers and I have works with many of the original BL students one way or another. I do not see JKD in my Kuntao at all. I also do not see any grappling, at least not by the standard version of it. there definately is no Kali in it. Unless you are referring to that blend in that last video posted by ESPY-TV. Maybe you should look into what I know and do before you deside to put me down on a public forum to make yourself feel better.

Anyway, I am willing to discuss Kuntao and the knife throwing video.

To the owner and moderaters here...Are you folks going to put up a Kuntao/Kun Tao/Kuntaw/Kuntau section in here?

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;38068]With all due respect, I have to say that you do not know anything about JKD or Jiu jitsu. Nor do you know anything about Kuntao obviously. I have to say that your comments on this cannot be accepted. If you think that this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcwKu_UzwQk or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxzNkYJ47U looks like JKD, Kali or Jiu jitsu...how can I accept your opinion here?


Ron, how can you make a statement like "you do now know anything" with anything close to due respect?

And you've now clarified my statement earlier that what you say can be said about you.
Maybe there are others who feel that if those videos are what you think is a clear definition of Kuntao, how can they accept your opinion?

I just noticed something...I thought it was Labantayo saying all this so i went in thinking it was him because he basically said the same thing.

Well, i don't know what the problem is here. I have never been second guessed on my Kuntao before. Not even by people that spent their life in Kuntao in the Philippines. I think maybe there are a few folks here who should maybe research it before thinking i am not doing a legitamate Kuntao style or technique. If you can research it that is...I realize that is not an easy task. Its a rare style so its hard to figure out what is going on in those videos, maybe? I know my first teacher did not know anything about JKD nor did any one else I met over the years. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Labantayo]

I have learned my fair share of JKD to know that what you are showing in your videos is a blend of some Jun Fan/Serak entries with Mande Muda ground work and some JiuJitsu/Aikido joint locks and throws. There's even some Savate and Muay Thai kicks thrown in.
What you lack in your skill demonstrated on your videos is the essence of Kuntao. Without the essence, the ancestors are not respected and Kuntao turns into mush.
I am not questioning your JKD/Kali skill, just your transference of what our forefathers struggled so hard to keep alive, to our future generations to pass on to their students.

I can't wait for the book to come out. I will keep silent on the subject until I finish reading the book.

[Ron Kosakowski]

I have learned my fair share of JKD to know that what you are showing in your videos is a blend of some Jun Fan/Serak entries with Mande Muda ground work and some JiuJitsu/Aikido joint locks and throws. There's even some Savate and Muay Thai kicks thrown in.
What you lack in your skill demonstrated on your videos is the essence of Kuntao. Without the essence, the ancestors are not respected and Kuntao turns into mush.
I am not questioning your JKD/Kali skill, just your transference of what our forefathers struggled so hard to keep alive, to our future generations to pass on to their students.

I can't wait for the book to come out. I will keep silent on the subject until I finish reading the book.

Well, I go not know Aikido at all, though I do BJJ and other ground grappling. I also do not know Savate though I did a class at the Inosanto Academy once with Salem Assli back in 89 or 90. The joint locking you see that looks like Aikido to you is pretty much universal. The ground work in my Kuntao is not Mande Muda...it consists of eye and hair grabbing, joint locking, superficial nerve grabbing...it is a complete system covering all ranges. Is that what makes you think it is JKD? A true ancient system will cover all ranges yet be in-fighting oriented due to the fact that one on one or multi man attacks will inevidably end up in the clench...or a clench of some sort.

Anyway, I don't know what you saw that was Kuntao before. I saw some very "Karate" looking Kuntao on the web and no, thats not what I do. My Kuntao has been accepted by the elders in the Philippines. If it is hard to beieve, then ask Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje if it was. I think the elders know what they are looking at when I had to demonstrate my style. So I am not to worried about what the opinions here are.

Like I said before, I understand the controvercy...Real Filipino Kuntao is not easy to find...even in the Philippines.

[themorningstar]

[quote=themorningstar;37981]
You would be surprised what Grand tuhon leo Gaje knows about...the same goes for the late Larry hartsell. I am and was close to both of them so I know what they are into. No, they are not Kuntao teachers but they both know about Kuntao one way or another. Larry mostly understood the Indonesian version through Guro Dan Inosanto and Willem DeThours.

im actually not surprised by what GT Gaje knows about- i know that he has had exposure to a great many things such as kuntao and silat- but that doesnt change the fact that he is the Grand Tuhon of Pekiti Tirsia Kali, not kuntao. i am sure that even Grand Tuhon will verify for you that PTK is a complete art and technology-no kuntao added.
i also understand that the great Larry Hartsell had exposure to kuntao but that doesnt change the fact that he was not a kuntao instructor unless you are stating otherwise.

[themorningstar]

Kuntao translates to Fisy Way in Chinese and Indonesia. In the Philippines it translates as "to be a man" by the elders of Kuntao from the Marinao tribes.

I can see why there can be controvercy over me having Kuntao. My teacher had learned his in Mindanao going back after WW2. He first learned an abridged version of it during the war, then went to complete his learning after obviously taking a liking to what he had learned in the abridged format. I am the only one that ever learned the whole system Joe Rossi had.

Another part I take in this is what GT Leo Gaje had done for me. I am writing a book on Kuntao so i wanted to explore more about Kuntao and gain some contacts to continue my own education and complete the book. GT Leo risked his life to bring me where he brought me to accomplish this. We had a few close calls where we almost got killed to do this. By the way, he wrote a big blog on his web site on this exact subject in case you are in doubt. Anyway, I remember wondering if I was ever going to see my kids again. I am adventurous but that area is dangerous and worse now a days that it was 5 years ago. On the other hand, it was worth it. i got some good contacts there which I remain in contact with. I got to see a similar but different version of Kuntao.

Right now, there are some elders helping me write the history of Kuntao. There is a history out there that is not accurate and these people are adament about straightening that out. So am I...you will have to wait for the book to be published to see what it is.

Bill...you say you are not an expert as a reliable sourse...I hear you there...I am not either. If it were not for me taking these chances and meeting these people, I would have to rely on what is on the web for my information. Kuntao info is always kept very secretive. My teacher was like that...greedy with his style...they all are. I am also. I look for loyalty and I do not teach just anyone who walks in the door. If they are brawler types, I send them to the JKD/Grappling classes.

I am not used to my Kuntao being questioned. Though, I welcome it because I understand. Being a caucasion with such a sophisticated style IS unusual. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif


i would definitely like to know in what particular dialect "kuntao" means "to be a man"- if you are saying that is the definition in the MARANAO dialect- that can easily be confirmed. ( if you have been accepted by the maranao "elders" then why do you continue to misspell their tribal name?- that would be considered disrespect )

i will not bring your teacher Joe Rossi or his history into this out of respect for the departed.

i have been to many parts of mindanao and i know quite a few members on this very forum who currently live and love mindanao- they do not seem to be risking their lives. why are trying to make it seem the lands of mindanao are such frightening places? why should you have even been afraid when you were accompanied and chauffered by members of the armed forces of the philippines? please dont try to argue with me about mindanao and its surrounding areas when you were only there for a few days with armed guards and many of us VACATION there with friends family and loved ones and even train for months at a time. do you not realize that by making it sound like you went to such a "DANGEROUS" place you are also insulting the land and people of the "council elders" that you claim connection to?

i think they would be hurt by your very comments.
speaking of the "council of grand kuntaoists" of the "marinao" tribe- why didnt they tell you the hilt on your kampilan was backwards before you changed it recently?
arent they a little hurt that you choose to have your "moro" blades made by people who are not followers of islam or even located in mother mindanao?

please think about what i have wrote and the potential damage you can cause to the sons and daughters of mindanao-you go there a few days for research- to many of us, its our home

[themorningstar]

Anyway, I don't know what you saw that was Kuntao before. I saw some very "Karate" looking Kuntao on the web and no, thats not what I do. My Kuntao has been accepted by the elders in the Philippines. If it is hard to beieve, then ask Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje if it was. I think the elders know what they are looking at when I had to demonstrate my style. So I am not to worried about what the opinions here are.

Like I said before, I understand the controvercy...Real Filipino Kuntao is not easy to find...even in the Philippines.


i would like to know these elders if you could be so kind.
there are many of us who practice and teach kuntao and silat from the philippines.
so many of us are connected in one way or another, either through kinship or friendship- so perhaps either myself or some others might be familiar with the "elders" that accepted you and would like to inquire as to why our elders do not know about you.
so dont worry about my simple opinions- they should mean nothing to you.
if you are legitimate then you have nothing to fret or get upset about-i would just be inquiring about someone who shares a common art with me, my family, my "brothers" and "cousins".

in regards to your last statement that kuntao is hard to find- you make it seem like it is so hard that it can only be found in connecticut.
your last statement shows the ignorance that only 5 days guarded by soldiers in mindanao will give you. go there without the guns, go there with the "council of elders", go there with an appreciation for the native and local people and then you'll know what im talking about

[arnisador]

there are many of us who practice and teach kuntao

We need more of them to start productive, positive threads about that art.

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;38069]

im actually not surprised by what GT Gaje knows about- i know that he has had exposure to a great many things such as kuntao and silat- but that doesnt change the fact that he is the Grand Tuhon of Pekiti Tirsia Kali, not kuntao. i am sure that even Grand Tuhon will verify for you that PTK is a complete art and technology-no kuntao added.
i also understand that the great Larry Hartsell had exposure to kuntao but that doesnt change the fact that he was not a kuntao instructor unless you are stating otherwise.
Where did I say that Leo Gaje or Larry Hartsell were Kuntao instructors? And WTF is your problem with me?

[Ron Kosakowski]

i would definitely like to know in what particular dialect "kuntao" means "to be a man"- if you are saying that is the definition in the MARANAO dialect- that can easily be confirmed. ( if you have been accepted by the maranao "elders" then why do you continue to misspell their tribal name?- that would be considered disrespect )

i will not bring your teacher Joe Rossi or his history into this out of respect for the departed.

i have been to many parts of mindanao and i know quite a few members on this very forum who currently live and love mindanao- they do not seem to be risking their lives. why are trying to make it seem the lands of mindanao are such frightening places? why should you have even been afraid when you were accompanied and chauffered by members of the armed forces of the philippines? please dont try to argue with me about mindanao and its surrounding areas when you were only there for a few days with armed guards and many of us VACATION there with friends family and loved ones and even train for months at a time. do you not realize that by making it sound like you went to such a "DANGEROUS" place you are also insulting the land and people of the "council elders" that you claim connection to?

i think they would be hurt by your very comments.
speaking of the "council of grand kuntaoists" of the "marinao" tribe- why didnt they tell you the hilt on your kampilan was backwards before you changed it recently?
arent they a little hurt that you choose to have your "moro" blades made by people who are not followers of islam or even located in mother mindanao?

please think about what i have wrote and the potential damage you can cause to the sons and daughters of mindanao-you go there a few days for research- to many of us, its our homeOk, Kampilan expert...it was fixed. You still diggging for insults?

It seems you do NOT know much about Mindanao by what you say here. Yes, you can go to a few areas of Mindanao and there are some tourist areas there as well. Like Davoa (if I got the spelling correct before you jump down my throat again) for example is the biggest one there if I am not mistaken. But going more south, there are Abu Sayaf all over the place now a days. I was told by the elders NOT to go there due to Abu Sayaf. Many of them left the area themselves due to Abu Sayaf. Many are not even in Mindanao anymore.

I do not care what you think of my Kuntao or my background. You are nothing more than someone with nothing to do but go on forums and play keyboard irritant. You jealous of my accomplishments or something? I have nothing to prove to you. Many know of what I do all over the world and know how I got there. You picking out a mistake in spelling or whatever here and there does not disprove any of that.http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Ron Kosakowski]

i would like to know these elders if you could be so kind.
there are many of us who practice and teach kuntao and silat from the philippines.
so many of us are connected in one way or another, either through kinship or friendship- so perhaps either myself or some others might be familiar with the "elders" that accepted you and would like to inquire as to why our elders do not know about you.
so dont worry about my simple opinions- they should mean nothing to you.
if you are legitimate then you have nothing to fret or get upset about-i would just be inquiring about someone who shares a common art with me, my family, my "brothers" and "cousins".

in regards to your last statement that kuntao is hard to find- you make it seem like it is so hard that it can only be found in connecticut.
your last statement shows the ignorance that only 5 days guarded by soldiers in mindanao will give you. go there without the guns, go there with the "council of elders", go there with an appreciation for the native and local people and then you'll know what im talking about
I say that because the youth today do not want to put in the time it takes to be a real martial artist. Look how many instructorships are given away. Look what fighters look like today...look how many "grand masters" are out there today. Elders of ALL styles see this.

And yes, it can be found in CTat the Practical Self Defense Training Center in Waterbury. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Ron Kosakowski]

We need more of them to start productive, positive threads about that art.
I certainly tried. If I had a spell checker here there would be far less to attack me with. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[themorningstar]

[quote=themorningstar;38110]
Where did I say that Leo Gaje or Larry Hartsell were Kuntao instructors? And WTF is your problem with me?

so then why do you bring them up to validate your kuntao?
proudly bring up the names of the "council of grand kuntaoists"(whom you constantly reference) who have verified or authenticated your kuntao then.

sir, there is no need for language like that.
do you talk to everyone who inquires of you like that?
you are very quick to speak on others who say they practice kuntao that doesnt look like yours-yet you get upset and start to use harsh language when someone mirrors it back towards you.

[themorningstar]

Ok, Kampilan expert...it was fixed. You still diggging for insults?

It seems you do NOT know much about Mindanao by what you say here. Yes, you can go to a few areas of Mindanao and there are some tourist areas there as well. Like Davoa (if I got the spelling correct before you jump down my throat again) for example is the biggest one there if I am not mistaken. But going more south, there are Abu Sayaf all over the place now a days. I was told by the elders NOT to go there due to Abu Sayaf. Many of them left the area themselves due to Abu Sayaf. Many are not even in Mindanao anymore.

I do not care what you think of my Kuntao or my background. You are nothing more than someone with nothing to do but go on forums and play keyboard irritant. You jealous of my accomplishments or something? I have nothing to prove to you. Many know of what I do all over the world and know how I got there. You picking out a mistake in spelling or whatever here and there does not disprove any of that.http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

i didnt have to be a kampilan expert to know the hilt on your kampilan was backwards.
im just surprised that the tribe you emplyed who have been making blades for hundreds of years could get something so rudimentary and essential to the kampilan-backwards.
then i was further surprised that the council of grand kuntaoists did not care to mention or correct you in regards to the kampilan as well.
if they were maranao-then surely they would have been upset that you put the hilt on their traditional sword-backwards.
i am glad however that you did get around to fixing it-would you be willing to offer exchanges to those that did buy the kampilan with the backwards hilt? i only ask in the interest of good business and the reputation of the council of grand kuntaoists.

oh i assure you, i happen to know a little bit about mindanao and sulu
i lived in mindanao and sulu for many years-you went there for how many days?
there are members on this very forum who are sons of mindanao and sulu and i can assure that they love where they are from, still live there happily and are proud of it as i am.
PLEASE stop making our homes sound like their are terrorist infested everywhere and dissuading people from visiting there and enjoying what our lands have to offer.

why keep bringing up ASG? does that really have a bearing on what my questions were towards you?
please clarify for me- many of the council of grand kuntaosits have left mindanao due to ASG?
if i am reading that correctly, then i am saddened by that news however glad that they are safe.
were none of them offered assistance by local MILF or MNLF or other organizations?

sir, once again you seek to attack me with name calling and other verbal insults out of frustration or anger.
i have refrained from doing so in search of answers to questions
i wish you would conduct yourself a little better as potential customers may be reading this as well.

p.s. i only bring up the spelling issue as that is an important aspect to the culture. i was hoping you could respect that, since you yourself are proud of who you are and your homeland of birth.

[themorningstar]

I say that because the youth today do not want to put in the time it takes to be a real martial artist. Look how many instructorships are given away. Look what fighters look like today...look how many "grand masters" are out there today. Elders of ALL styles see this.

And yes, it can be found in CTat the Practical Self Defense Training Center in Waterbury. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

what you say may be true in many regards and respects.
however what bearing does that have to the topic of your kuntao and the comments you have made in regards to it?
i am merely inquiring about someone who may share the same art as myself, my family, my "brothers, sisters and cousins".
look at it as if you found someone with the last name of kosakowski and inquired if you were related somehow.
does that necessitate your insults and bad mouthing towards me?

sir- you just keep making it seem as if the ONLY place in the world to the learn the philippine art of kuntao is in connecticut-not even the philippines.

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;38162]

so then why do you bring them up to validate your kuntao?
proudly bring up the names of the "council of grand kuntaoists"(whom you constantly reference) who have verified or authenticated your kuntao then.

sir, there is no need for language like that.
do you talk to everyone who inquires of you like that?
you are very quick to speak on others who say they practice kuntao that doesnt look like yours-yet you get upset and start to use harsh language when someone mirrors it back towards you.
Without trying to make yourself look good here which is not working...what is your problem with me? Do YOU speak on others like that who say they practice kuntao that doesnt look like yours? Your constant digs are very disrespectful. You have fun disrespecting others on forums?http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif We both know that you have done this to me elsewhere...right?

Don't worry about who authenticated my Kuntao. There is a picture of the elders on the site and all other info will all be in my book. If you do not recognize anyone from the picture then you will have to wait till the book comes out to see who it is if you are that curious.

[Ron Kosakowski]

what you say may be true in many regards and respects.
however what bearing does that have to the topic of your kuntao and the comments you have made in regards to it?
i am merely inquiring about someone who may share the same art as myself, my family, my "brothers, sisters and cousins".
look at it as if you found someone with the last name of kosakowski and inquired if you were related somehow.
does that necessitate your insults and bad mouthing towards me?

sir- you just keep making it seem as if the ONLY place in the world to the learn the philippine art of kuntao is in connecticut-not even the philippines.
Maybe you should try reading my posts before you write about what I am saying and what I am not saying. I said, WTF is your problem with me and I did not say that Kuntao CANNOT be found in the Philippines...I said that it is hard to find. Like I said, try reading my posts and not throwing in words I did not say. Kali, Arnis and Eskrima for that matter is not easy to find there unless you know someone.

And as for bad mouthing Mindanao, I never did that either. And there is Abu Sayaf there in Mindanao and it is a problem. Alquieda is a problem all over the world...face it. Other than that, I found many people to be friendly and the land to be beautiful. The culture to be very interesting.

[arnisador]

Perhaps it would be best to return to the topic of the thread.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[mabagani]

The original topic included whether or not to have a kuntao section.
I agree with morningstar's comments...and the negative stereotype that its dangerous to go to the south does not help. Local friends steer you from harm as with any place in the Philippines, you usually know ahead of time which areas to stay out of. When I travelled in Mindanao it was without fear and danger, I toured historical sites, mosques, markets, schools etc... I still have friends and family who live there.
Comments were made about being an "elder" and consulting with elders, yet from what I've observed the TWF company didn't know the hilt on the replica it manufactured of one of the oldest native swords was backwards and it still uses the mistake with the backwards kampilan handle in its company logo and tshirts, whenever I see it or hear about "elders" I wonder who is trying to pull whose leg. Its a pain in the behind to police mistakes written about our history and culture on forums and websites, having to see more fantasy swords being made that exploit our heritage and now read more erroneous history.
I also agree with labantayo about the essence in kuntao and silat as it relates to forms in the southern Philippines, each region has ethnic cultural movements that can indentify its origin and without them techniques can seem like plain or similar fighting moves, or modern innovations and interpretations.
I've trained and done my share of research with the Tausug, Maranao, Magui, etc. and have an open invitation to travel among friends without fear and danger. I do ongoing cultural and historical projects with several groups and I can verify information or misinformation. Some of my research can be found at Mindanao State University, Capitol University, University of the Philippines and Philippine National Museum, also universities and institutions in the US.
Anyone writing about history and culture should do the research first...there are scholars who will call mistakes and it will save the embarrassment plastered all over the internet to do thorough work beforehand especially in public forums and websites. Like any other system, school or group etc. people will ask about teachers and instructors, so if one were elusive, unclear, faulty etc about information why wouldn't it draw more questions in a new or old forum section?
imho

[themorningstar]

[quote=themorningstar;38166]
Without trying to make yourself look good here which is not working...what is your problem with me? Do YOU speak on others like that who say they practice kuntao that doesnt look like yours? Your constant digs are very disrespectful. You have fun disrespecting others on forums?http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif We both know that you have done this to me elsewhere...right?

Don't worry about who authenticated my Kuntao. There is a picture of the elders on the site and all other info will all be in my book. If you do not recognize anyone from the picture then you will have to wait till the book comes out to see who it is if you are that curious.

i'm not trying to make myself look good
i'm not the one on fmatalk self promoting with business advertisements and videos of themselves
i've just been asking you questions and seeking answers
do you even read the posts that you quote me on?
you still have yet to answer any pertinent questions i've projected towards you.
you keep taking my questions as disrespectful, yet you outright insult and disrespect me when i ask questions?
and yes ive had a go at you before and others who speak ill of mindanao and sulu.

one thing is for sure, you definitely have fun disrespecting people instead of answering questions.

im not worried about who "authenticated" your kuntao just curious.
i've seen the pictures of "the grand kuntaoist ali sharief and the council of grand kuntaoists" that you put up- you easily identify them on your website yet refrain from bringing them up on others.
like i have written before, you quickly bring up GT Gaje and Larry Hartsell in regards to your kuntao but refrain from acknowledging the very people that you had "authenticate" your kuntao and who are kuntao instructors as well as who make up a council of grand kuntaoists?

[themorningstar]

Maybe you should try reading my posts before you write about what I am saying and what I am not saying. I said, WTF is your problem with me and I did not say that Kuntao CANNOT be found in the Philippines...I said that it is hard to find. Like I said, try reading my posts and not throwing in words I did not say. Kali, Arnis and Eskrima for that matter is not easy to find there unless you know someone.

And as for bad mouthing Mindanao, I never did that either. And there is Abu Sayaf there in Mindanao and it is a problem. Alquieda is a problem all over the world...face it. Other than that, I found many people to be friendly and the land to be beautiful. The culture to be very interesting.


sir,
first you write that you don't care who i am or what i have to say- but then you go right back and loudly state-WTF is your problem with me?
there's no need for adrenalin or chest thumping.
im not jealous of you or anything like that- im still puzzled why you make comments like that when i'm not promoting anything, selling anything, or making competitive videos against you.
i'm a nobody as you so put it- so there's no need to try and get loud, insult and disrespect me or try and scare me in your attempt to not answer any questions posted and presented to you in a civil manner.

you keep saying the art of kuntao is hard to find in the philippines-yet you have never and do not currently reside there, have only been there so many times, and went to mindanao for maybe a handful of days?
how can you make such a statement?
and then you state that you found the people friendly, land beautiful and culture interesting, in your most recent post but just a few posts back you state how you were scared for your life and were warned to not go there or go back there(even with GT Gaje by your side and military escorts)????

sir, please go back and reread my posts, my posts you quoted, the posts you posted and the many questions you have yet to answer.
just please try not to insult me or degrade me in exchange for an answer to my questions.

[themorningstar]

Perhaps it would be best to return to the topic of the thread.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin
I did not know where to put this clip. We need a Kuntao section in here. Its the only traditional FMA missing from this forum. Due to the fact Kuntao, Kun Tao, Kuntaw or Kuntau (however you want to spell it) is the oldest Filipino martial art which influenced all the other styles in the Philippines, there should be a place for it here. I guess I got two topics going at once in this section.

Anyway, check out the knife throwing methods of Kuntao Dumpag. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDoIzvJvew&feature=channel_page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDoIzvJvew&feature=channel_page)
This is an area of self defense we worked on for footwork and power in striking believe it or not. Check this out and let me know your thoughts on it.


we can certainly return to both topics of the thread.
now in regards to the knife throwing of "KUNTAO DUMPAG", was this traditionally trained with traditional kuntao knives of the philippines or contemporary knives from recent era?
also,
if kuntao is such an old and complete art that predates many others-then why has "dumpag" which is a combination of the visayan arts of "dumog" and pangamut"(and a part of the PTK system) been added to it?
to clarify-PTK is a COMPLETE SYSTEM and TECHNOLOGY
why learn PTK and the other plethora of arts you have studied if you have one of the oldest and most complete arts(kuntao) at your disposal?

[themorningstar]

I would be glad to talk about Kuntao more often. I have spent most of my life in the style and have had many adventures with it.

I agree with Mike Snow also...there is a lot of Silat in the Philippines as well. Many do not realize all this because finding real Kuntao or Silat in the Philippines is a dangerous trip to take. I know that for a fact from experience. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


please sir, conversate with me about kuntao so that i may find an answer or 2 to the millions of questions i may have.
just try to keep the degradation and insults to a minimum please?

[Navadisha]

now in regards to the knife throwing of "KUNTAO DUMPAG", was this traditionally trained with traditional kuntao knives of the philippines or contemporary knives from recent era?



I was wondering on this as well. Was this practice traditionaly taught with the Gunong (not really a throwing knife IMHO)? Was throwing taught as a traditional subcomponent of the Maranao arts you learned or was it a modern addition to Kuntao Dumpag?

[Labantayo]

"And there is Abu Sayaf there in Mindanao and it is a problem. "

Why are you making money off of the groups who you warn everyone about?

You sell a fantasy recreation of the swords, that the peoples of the south, who designed them originally, to fight invaders to their lands.

But yet you talk about how dangerous it is and that we need a ton of bodyguards to go there.

If the Moros are so bad, why are you making money off of their culture?

I know not ALL Moros are associated with "rebel" groups, but don't use them for your propaganda.

[Ron Kosakowski]

Well, its been a while since I have been here...I have been crazy busy with every thing.

I read the posts and really did not want to be here and answer all these questions originally. The reason being is my answers are torn apart and redirected by a select few for some reason or another. If I leave a small detail out, my answers get redirected like I am being disrespectful to what I like most in my life. Its rediculous actually.

Anyway, there are some parts of Mindanao that are dangerous to go to right now. No, it is not all the people. And yes, there are tourist areas. Like I said, I found everyone i met to be friendly. I did not meet any rebels, though, I did have an experience where I was woken up at 2 in the morning by the SAF and told to pack and go due to some problems I would have had.

I say its not easy to find Silat or Kuntao there because its not. For me who does not live there and knows all the various tribes, its not easy. I had a month (that particular year) stay to do this. I found Ali Sharief and the Kuntao counsel. If you live there, of course it will be easier to have connections to find these people. I would have liked to get to know people that lived in the area to be introduced to these Kuntaoists actually. For me, its a matter of time and money...I am sure that goes for most all foriegners.

As for the reason I call it Kuntao "Dumpag." I call it that for my own reasons. Its a name recommended to me to seperate myself from many of the others in the Rossi crowd due to the fact that there are claims to be the inheritors and many are now calling themselves Grand Master...it went crazy, blending what they know with other stuff calling it Kuntao, breaking boards and blocks. To me, thats not what I was taught as Kuntao so I wanted to be seperate. I am the only one to learn the system from my teacher. As for learning from Ali and a few others, I am still furthering my education when I can get there every year.

I have never disrespected anyone for doing their style, why do I get disrespected for loving Philippine martial arts and wanting to continue my education? I simply want to know more while I am young enough to learn it and perform it. Why do i have to be put down for having videos on youtube? Believe me, I am not the only one who complains about this forum being like this. Personally, I have stayed out of the political crap always here and where ever else. As for the videos...yes, I do like to drum up business. If I owned a gift shop, I would be advertising it also where ever i could so people know I exist. No one would say a thing about it if it were a gift shop, but for some reason I get torn into because I am showing mine and my students on film?

Oh, and someone here said that I said you were a nobody. Where did I say that? It is NOT even in my personality to say that. The only thing I said is "WTF is the problem you have with me?" I said that because a couple of ya's have been on me about my swords and my martial arts for some reason or another. I never claimed to be a Grand Master. Though, I am a long time teacher. My first real style was Kuntao. And yes, i have mastered the techniques of my Kuntao to the point it is automatic reflex. But I have always put myself as a student also. Because I like to learn...the subject of martial arts, especially Kuntao arouses my curiosity. Anything wrong with that?

As for the knife throwing and the laughter...my teacher showed it to me. It is an option, not a main focus. Like I said before, I happened to focus on it. Why? Because I like it and I find it reasonably relaxing to throw knives accurately due to the focus it takes to get everything perfect. I was taught that it is another training method for body positioning coordinated with hand striking. It enhances that area. Knives are not the only projectile used. Anything can be thrown to attack or get to another weapon. Notice my positioning is different than target knife throwers? Why the "LAMAO" or whatever the initials are for laughter were put here, I don't understand. Since when is knife throwing or projectiles in general a modern additive?

Anyway, I have less interest in this forum because of this. I don't mind explaining myself and what I know of my martial arts on a friendly basis with no sarcasm.

My guess is this will be looked at between the lines torn apart. Oh well!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Worm Dirt]

Mr. Kosakowski,

I think part of the reason you're being asked a lot of questions is simple: refer back to your website.

"The name "Kun Tao Dumpag" was given to Ron Kosakowski by Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. in the Philippines to personalize his own system. Kun Tao, as it is taught at the Practical Self Defense Training Center is definitely a style that has to be seen to be believed."

That implies PTK to the outsider moreso than a "true" authentic Kuntaw system lineage, not to mention your "own" system. Being your system it will be biased by a number of factors; body type, personality, experience, and walk of life.

"Kun Tao Dumpag is the ONLY style of Kun Tao in the United States recognized by the Grand Kuntaoist Ali Sharief and the Kuntao council of Grand Masters of the Maranaw and Maguindanao tribes in Mindanao, Philippines."

This implies to the outsider that everyone else is fake. How do I know if someone is fake? According to your website, I should take your word for it.

By reading your website, it's geared more towards trying to convince me (the reader) that your material is real and tons of people are teaching something that isn't authentic.

I have one question, says on your website you taught "special tactics" to US Army Rangers from 1992 - 1995. Out of curiousty as a prior military guy, where was that instruction and what did it entail?

I don't know you and I'm nobody important, but I'll bet your image, your website, and your sales pitches tend to shy away more legitimate interest than it brings in. After all, there is a video on youtube of you getting KO'ed by Chuck Liddell, unless that's a different Ron Kosakowski. I watched it expecting magic and wound up seeing someone eat the mat.

I'm not insulting you, I'm just being honest.

Worm Dirt

[Ron Kosakowski]

Mr. Kosakowski,

I think part of the reason you're being asked a lot of questions is simple: refer back to your website.

"The name "Kun Tao Dumpag" was given to Ron Kosakowski by Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje Jr. in the Philippines to personalize his own system. Kun Tao, as it is taught at the Practical Self Defense Training Center is definitely a style that has to be seen to be believed."

That implies PTK to the outsider moreso than a "true" authentic Kuntaw system lineage, not to mention your "own" system. Being your system it will be biased by a number of factors; body type, personality, experience, and walk of life.

"Kun Tao Dumpag is the ONLY style of Kun Tao in the United States recognized by the Grand Kuntaoist Ali Sharief and the Kuntao council of Grand Masters of the Maranaw and Maguindanao tribes in Mindanao, Philippines."

This implies to the outsider that everyone else is fake. How do I know if someone is fake? According to your website, I should take your word for it.

By reading your website, it's geared more towards trying to convince me (the reader) that your material is real and tons of people are teaching something that isn't authentic.

I have one question, says on your website you taught "special tactics" to US Army Rangers from 1992 - 1995. Out of curiousty as a prior military guy, where was that instruction and what did it entail?

I don't know you and I'm nobody important, but I'll bet your image, your website, and your sales pitches tend to shy away more legitimate interest than it brings in. After all, there is a video on youtube of you getting KO'ed by Chuck Liddell, unless that's a different Ron Kosakowski. I watched it expecting magic and wound up seeing someone eat the mat.

I'm not insulting you, I'm just being honest.

Worm DirtOk, well the name is different but the technique is still kuntao technique. The name is new but the technique is old. I just personalized what I learned from my teacher and from some others. I can't see anything wrong with that if it is still Kuntao. Whats inna name?

As for my fight with Chuck Lidell, yes I did get knocked out. If you notice in the video I was limping after him. I had lost my knee a month and a half badly before the fight basically walking with a cane. Back then I was trying hard to get fights, my knee gave me more and more pain, I went to the doctor, he told me that I should not even be walking let alone fighting. So I stopped training for fighting. However, I got a phone call to fight him. I took the fight anyway figuring I was going to get my knee taken out and replaced with a metal knee. The whole story is here on this thread http://forum.psdtc.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1729

If you remember, back in 1998, polititions were trying to outlaw MMA fighting. That fight took place in Vegas. They got away with it by rules of having slaps in the face only. You noticed only the knock out but did you happen to notice that I got in on him easily with my hands but the ref said if I do that again, I will be disqualified.I cut Chucks eye open with a palm but that was against the rules. Now i was stuck with no tools, i could not really do any hand work (I never practiced slap fighting before) I could not shoot...I am a long time grappler but he backed up and I was to slow due to my condition at the time. Believe me, I do not regret this fight. I at least fought. I did it basically crippled but I went in anyway to get it done before going under the knife. I am a fighter and even at my age now, I still feel the urge. Though MMA is out for me now.

As for Kuntao magic...is that what you were looking for in that fight? Gimme a break! Did you want me to grab his hair and throat, pull me into him and bite pieces of his throat out? To me its a statement just to pick on my Kuntao to make yourself feel better. It doen't work. Do I get any respect for eating, sleeping and drinking not to mention living martial arts?

By the way, Grand Tuhon leo Gaje did help me with the name because he knows the politics that are going on here in CT in Kuntao after my teacher died. I am thankful for that and many other things he has done for me.

And yes, I have taught many military and police since the 70's. It is Kuntao that I have taught them...an abriged format of it of course. Sometimes they have me there for a seminar, others have come to me for private lessons and others have joined my school.

[arnisador]

As for my fight with Chuck Lidell, yes I did get knocked out.

Good for you for trying! I find that impressive enough already.

[Worm Dirt]

Like Arnisador said, props for taking a shot at. I'll totally give that much. Excellent initiative but perhaps you should have waited until you were healed up? Who knows. That's your decision. The magic I was looking for was you whooping his @$$. If you're injured, haven't trained for the format of the competition, and want to make a good name for yourself... choose a venue more beneficial to you. In a military thought process context, horrible decision making. You obviously wouldn't have fought if you didn't think you had a chance. In the world of competition fighting, you don't get to be a martyr; you're just a loser. If you were proud of your loss, you'd advertise that too instead of concealing it and making excuses. And why not be? Everybody has a bad day and ANYBODY can be beaten. At least you had the stones to try... but don't make excuses.

Now as far as making a statement to "pick on" your Kuntao to make myself feel better... no. Everything I have said is fact or how I percieve what you are presenting. I'm a huge fan of PTK and I admire that system in many ways, but PTK is not Kuntao nor is it advertised. It's alread a complete system of itself.

But again, you're saying now it's your Kuntao. So say just that. This is your interpretation of Kuntao. Then say who you learned from. You'll get more respect that way. To say it's the "only" Kuntao is arrogant and unfair to other practioners.

The "everyone's out to get me" attitude does not bolster my confidence in you in the least.

Now, what Ranger unit did you train from 1992 - 1995, where, and what's "special tactics" mean? Or does that just mean you had US Army Rangers attend your seminars?

I'll go straight to the point with this: "Cool By Association" or CBA. Also known amongst we crawlers of the dirt as "Name Dropping" which is different than an affiliation with someone who is well known. Dropping "trained US Army Rangers" is a big deal in certain circles. If you mention it, then you better be able to vet it.

Mr. Kosakowski, I don't doubt one single bit you live martial arts. I would encourage you to continue to do so as with everyone else who does so. I would only strive to remind you that there is a huge difference between living as an avid "martial arts" enthusiast... and living as a warrior.

Worm Dirt

[Ron Kosakowski]

Like Arnisador said, props for taking a shot at. I'll totally give that much. Excellent initiative but perhaps you should have waited until you were healed up? Who knows. That's your decision. The magic I was looking for was you whooping his @$$. If you're injured, haven't trained for the format of the competition, and want to make a good name for yourself... choose a venue more beneficial to you. In a military thought process context, horrible decision making. You obviously wouldn't have fought if you didn't think you had a chance. In the world of competition fighting, you don't get to be a martyr; you're just a loser. If you were proud of your loss, you'd advertise that too instead of concealing it and making excuses. And why not be? Everybody has a bad day and ANYBODY can be beaten. At least you had the stones to try... but don't make excuses.
Where am I making excuses? I went in to fight with him at 40 years old at the time and basically crippled. Thats not an excuse thats a fact and it did hinder my abilities. I feel like I would have beat him if my body was together.
And no I could not wait till I healed. I had my knee replaced with a metal knee and I knew that my leg would be cut in half and wanted one more fight. Fighting with a metal knee is not smart to do in MMA because the situation can be worse on one little mistake. I now train MMA fighters. And as far as the Kuntao magic goes...there is a BIG difference between Kuntao fighting and MMA fighting. You will not see Kuntao in the ring or in MMA unless they water it down, or unless there is a fight to the death or maimed in a bad way. My thoughts are you do not understand Kuntao.



Now as far as making a statement to "pick on" your Kuntao to make myself feel better... no. Everything I have said is fact or how I percieve what you are presenting. I'm a huge fan of PTK and I admire that system in many ways, but PTK is not Kuntao nor is it advertised. It's alread a complete system of itself.

But again, you're saying now it's your Kuntao. So say just that. This is your interpretation of Kuntao. Then say who you learned from. You'll get more respect that way. To say it's the "only" Kuntao is arrogant and unfair to other practioners.

I guess you did not read my web site? All answers are there. Though even that has to be upgraded when I get the time because I have more to add to it.

By the way, I like PTK obviously also. The style is triangle based and so is my Kuntao. I like the relation between the two.


The "everyone's out to get me" attitude does not bolster my confidence in you in the least.I have plenty of confidence. I just don't do the keyboard warrior thing. Sorry, but you would have to see my confidence face to face. http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif



Now, what Ranger unit did you train from 1992 - 1995, where, and what's "special tactics" mean? Or does that just mean you had US Army Rangers attend your seminars?

I'll go straight to the point with this: "Cool By Association" or CBA. Also known amongst we crawlers of the dirt as "Name Dropping" which is different than an affiliation with someone who is well known. Dropping "trained US Army Rangers" is a big deal in certain circles. If you mention it, then you better be able to vet it.

Actually, i feel like you are busting balls here, I am not name dropping...I have a lot of experiences teaching all over and many diffferent people, but I will answer. A man named Leutenant(sp) William Gambino came to one of my Kuntao workshops and liked my Kuntao. He thought it was one of the most practical hand to hand stuff he has ever seen. He became one of my long distance students for a while. He also started learning other areas I teach. He set up some time for Rangers and Ranger graduates at Norwich University in Vermont. I was given a bunch of tactics to adapt "what we would do in Kuntao if" situations. I problem solved and gave them some good practical ways to survive the situations he gave me. They all loved it. So every year for about 3 years I went there and did the same thing. I still have a couple of the retired Rangers coming to my workshops and occasionally a private lesson or two. One of them is now a NYC cop.


Mr. Kosakowski, I don't doubt one single bit you live martial arts. I would encourage you to continue to do so as with everyone else who does so. I would only strive to remind you that there is a huge difference between living as an avid "martial arts" enthusiast... and living as a warrior.
If you do not know me or anything I have been through in my life, what makes you know what I am? I never heard of you either. But I don't second guess you or anyone until I see what they do, and/or know more about them. Personally, i would never do this to someone on a computer forum. I have more respect than that!

I went on here just to show my knife throwing skills and had a few pick apart everything I said for some reason or another. I like to throw knives. I have been on this forum getting along well with everyone for quite a few years now. I have always put my FMA videos on here to drum up conversation or whatever. Many have left this forum due to the BS like this going on. No one wants to sit at the computer having to stick up for themselves. People go on a forum to socialize with others who have the same interests. Gettting disrespected is a turn off. Notice how really this forum is dying out. The reason? Look around on MySpace forums and FB forums where they talk about the exact BS I just referred to mentioning this exact forum.

[Worm Dirt]

Mr. Kosakowski,

I tried to be fairly diplomatic, at least I thought I was. I'm going to say I don't understand your flavor of Kuntao, nor your rationale. But whatever. I can't see having any kind of intelligent debate or discussion with you.

"Fighting with a metal knee is not smart to do in MMA because the situation can be worse on one little mistake."

Then why get in the ring with an MMA fighter in the first place? Obviously you're well versed in MMA if you're training them, why not bust out the MMA material you're teaching? Not to mention the JKD, BJJ, Kuntao, ETC.

There is nothing wrong with this forum and it is not dying out. There are a lot of people, just like me, who lurk and read absorbing tons of information and a lot of people who post up really good information.

What Ranger unit? I keep asking this question with no solid response. Some "Ranger" guy you trained three times over the course of three years is not the same as training "US Army Rangers", which implies DOD sanctioned/contracted training. Which, does happen frequently, but is easily verified.

Ron, you talk about respect... how about integrity?

Worm Dirt

[arnisador]

This thread is now closed.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin