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Raisy
11-03-2008, 05:55 PM
I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. I came across some youtube clips of demos of Pangamut or Panantukan, illustrating empty hand techniques. My question is: are pangamut or panantukan individual styles or do they just refer to empty hand techniques used in most FMAs? If they are just referring to empty hand techniques, are their certain FMAs that teach or tend to utilize the empty hand more than others? I ask because I have been taking Modern Arnis for a bit now, and the empty hand we are learning doesn't really look like I've seen in clips.

el maldito de cebu
11-04-2008, 05:55 AM
I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. I came across some youtube clips of demos of Pangamut or Panantukan, illustrating empty hand techniques. My question is: are pangamut or panantukan individual styles or do they just refer to empty hand techniques used in most FMAs? If they are just referring to empty hand techniques, are their certain FMAs that teach or tend to utilize the empty hand more than others? I ask because I have been taking Modern Arnis for a bit now, and the empty hand we are learning doesn't really look like I've seen in clips.
In the best of my knowledge of what I know, as a Pangamot practitioner of the cacoy doce pares, my opinion based in my experience. pangamot is a system developed a long time ago in the call of time that self defence is a must against offender in my city before during the 1940's onward my grand dad use to tell me cebu city during that time the use of knife is very popular specially in blood money killing in response to this the long lived pangamot system was revolutionized with introjection of foreign arts like aikido,juijitso(japanese style) and the popular karate. pangamot is alredy existed in prehispanic period of the phil. but still in the puberty stage of it until it grows up to know. pangamot can be used in emptyhand and with a knife or short dagger or with a balisong in tha northern part of the phils. which is now known as kali.

gagimilo
11-04-2008, 11:05 AM
Bah, I guess you're not gonna get a definitive answer on this one. I have found out that some people use thw two terms interchangibly while some others use Pangamot to refer to higher unit, composed of panantukan, sikaran, dumog... Ohters, yet, use it to mean specifically the empty hand defense against an armed opponent, and so on.

Buwaya
11-04-2008, 05:18 PM
I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. I came across some youtube clips of demos of Pangamut or Panantukan, illustrating empty hand techniques. My question is: are pangamut or panantukan individual styles or do they just refer to empty hand techniques used in most FMAs? If they are just referring to empty hand techniques, are their certain FMAs that teach or tend to utilize the empty hand more than others? I ask because I have been taking Modern Arnis for a bit now, and the empty hand we are learning doesn't really look like I've seen in clips.
Pangamut refers to something you do with your hands in Bisaya. Its a common term for empty hand in Visayan systems (Doce Pares, Pekiti Tirsia, Corto Kadena, ect). What it looks like will vary depending on the preferences of each system. Pangamut from a Doce Pares practitioner wont look like pangamut from a Pekiti Tirsia practitioner.

Panatukan is a term that's been spread through the JKD/Inosanto line of FMA, so it's not uncommon to see it with elements of arts like BJJ, Silat, Savate, Muay Thai, Wing Chun.

Guro Marc
11-05-2008, 07:06 PM
I was hoping someone could answer a question for me. I came across some youtube clips of demos of Pangamut or Panantukan, illustrating empty hand techniques. My question is: are pangamut or panantukan individual styles or do they just refer to empty hand techniques used in most FMAs? If they are just referring to empty hand techniques, are their certain FMAs that teach or tend to utilize the empty hand more than others? I ask because I have been taking Modern Arnis for a bit now, and the empty hand we are learning doesn't really look like I've seen in clips.

Pangamut, Pangamot(?) Pakamut are terms from the Visyan region for hand to to hand and hand to weapon combat. Yes, for those fluent in Cebuano there are multiple meaning in three different local Cebuano dialects. I have found other practicioners from Cebu and Mactan that practice the hand to hand fighting system that uses fluid motion, limb destruction and zoning as a fighting system. The system typically uses hammer fist, elbows, hooks, simple throws, low kicks and sweeps. GM Danny Inosanto taught a varration of this and it is referenced. It is complete and practical fighting system. Based upon research the original Pangamut/Pakamut had and still has linear stick strikes and thrusts, locks and throws with stick that translate to the knife or to empty hands. Some have labled it the same at it not the same and can be spotted by a practioner of pakamut/pangamut.

ap Oweyn
11-05-2008, 09:28 PM
I work with a Modern Arnis group that uses the same term we used to use in my Doce Pares school. "Mano mano." Though I interviewed GM Cacoy in the early 90s. And he explained that he was using the term "pangamot" to describe his empty hand. The way he was talking about it, it sounded like it was the empty hand implementation of his eskrido. So it was more jiujutsu and judo based. That said, GM Cacoy has a background in boxing, karate, wrestling, etc. So I'm sure those influences work their way into his pangamot as well.

I personally use the term mano mano though. And my personal take is that, yes, regardless of the term you use, it's more an acknowledgment of the need for empty hand than it is a specific style in itself. Any given FMA proponent's mano mano is going to be influenced by whatever empty hand resources he has in his background.



Stuart

el maldito de cebu
11-06-2008, 10:04 AM
just adding some Idea pangamot in traditional term, it is a simple diffinitive discription of deffending your self. I am a pure cebuano and speak several dialects in the visayas region as well as in the luzon region. pangamot in its simpliest form before its evolution did alrady exist long before the spanish era had come. it is just revolutionized by some filipino FMA practitioner due to expansion of ideas to more propagate the deffencive tactic and to make it combat effective so why not combined with foreign arts to amke it more compound than in its original primitive form? so thats where the ideas a formed together they should use modern pangamot by this time to make it distinctive.

pguinto
11-06-2008, 05:29 PM
Raisy, looks like you missed this article from Bobbe, posted about a year ago:
Filipino Pangamot and Empty Hand Skills (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=3148)

el maldito de cebu
11-07-2008, 05:01 AM
I would prefer empty hand FMA called pangamot than mano mano. mano-mano came from spanish word means manual while pangamot is local native tongue which means deffence without weapons it is also like called abilidad.

Guro Marc
11-07-2008, 11:26 AM
I would prefer empty hand FMA called pangamot than mano mano. mano-mano came from spanish word means manual while pangamot is local native tongue which means deffence without weapons it is also like called abilidad.

I have to agree with my fellow practicioner on this one. I have hard time with mano-mano!!!

Raisy you need to read Bobbys article on the subject about it. It was very well written. Guro David Gould wrote a piece on this subject when he used it against another system, you need to read it, it has really great fine points. Also see my article on the 14 uses of the live hand. I feel the more your explore the FFA / FMA and its fine points the better it gets.

Raisy
11-07-2008, 05:06 PM
Raisy, looks like you missed this article from Bobbe, posted about a year ago:
Filipino Pangamot and Empty Hand Skills (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=3148)

Actually, I did read this article. I guess this was part of my confusion. This article gave me the impression that Pangamot was it's own system. However, when I checked Wikipedia, I kind of got the impression that it was only a term used to represent empty hand component to FMA. Also, when I searched for schools that taught Pangamot I wasn't really finding anything.

el maldito de cebu
11-08-2008, 01:20 AM
I have to agree with my fellow practicioner on this one. I have hard time with mano-mano!!!

Raisy you need to read Bobbys article on the subject about it. It was very well written. Guro David Gould wrote a piece on this subject when he used it against another system, you need to read it, it has really great fine points. Also see my article on the 14 uses of the live hand. I feel the more your explore the FFA / FMA and its fine points the better it gets.
tnx my fren looking forward to it. I was not reffering to system I was just refering to right use of the word as a filipino and a well versed understanding about filipino dialect to make it more filipino as I said already mano-mano is a foreign language and to make it more filipino I reffer to the word pangamot it better called panuntokan coz' panuntokan is a filipino languge. que palabra mano y mano amigo es la lengua para espanol un para que palabra para mas Filipino muy gusto preparidad es pangamot y panuntokan. I speak 3 Major filipino dialects and 4 subdialect of the philippines bro. Thanx for the info I will read that. I'am also looking forward to train with pitiki tirsia to add the system I know about Kali-pangamot to cover the weakness to make it more compound.

Gumagalang
El Maldito de Cebu

el maldito de cebu
11-08-2008, 01:26 AM
Actually, I did read this article. I guess this was part of my confusion. This article gave me the impression that Pangamot was it's own system. However, when I checked Wikipedia, I kind of got the impression that it was only a term used to represent empty hand component to FMA. Also, when I searched for schools that taught Pangamot I wasn't really finding anything.
Raisy schools that teach panagamot are Kali illustrisimo, Cacoy doce pares, dikiti tirsia, balintawak and pikiti tirsia to name a few but there is also some system that specialized in pangamot or empty hand. in cacoy doce pares we just not limit ourselves in eskrima but also in pangamot and eskrido the dangerous form of eskrima to make ourself battle ready at all times, in time of difficulty will come.

R. Mike Snow
11-08-2008, 02:17 AM
To the best of my knowlege, in the older blade oriented systems, knife, empty hand vs. knife and empty hand are vertually the same. At least in our sytem and the other traditional systems I have studied in the past. There is really no difference between knife and empty hand. GT Nene always tells us to, "assume they have a blade", or may be pulling one at any time. Even in Dumog, we start with a knife then graduate to empty hand. It's all the same.... Bangkaw to bayonet is another perfect example. I am guessing that systems differ on their ratio of empty hand to blade techniques as well as their complexity depending on their need while they were evolving.

Unfortunately I am still stuck in the pre historic dial-up connection world so I miss out on alot here. Thanks for pointing out the awesome article that Bobbe wrote.

R. Mike Snow
11-08-2008, 02:24 AM
I almost forgot, Panggamut is not a system, it is a piece or part of most systems. Just like Dumog is a piece or part of most systems...........

ap Oweyn
11-08-2008, 12:04 PM
I would prefer empty hand FMA called pangamot than mano mano. mano-mano came from spanish word means manual while pangamot is local native tongue which means deffence without weapons it is also like called abilidad.
I can respect that. I don't mind mano mano because I spoke Spanish before getting involved in FMA.

But that said, "el maldito" is also Spanish-derived. As are "eskrima", "arnis", "kamusta", and various other terms.

Does that one strike you as especially bothersome? Just curious.


Stuart

Raul
11-08-2008, 12:27 PM
I can respect that. I don't mind mano mano because I spoke Spanish before getting involved in FMA.

But that said, "el maldito" is also Spanish-derived. As are "eskrima", "arnis", "kamusta", and various other terms.

Does that one strike you as especially bothersome? Just curious.


StuartExactly!
Mano-mano IS Filipino! In Spanish, it would be be mano y mano. If a Filipino will say mano y mano, it will sound and mean something else.
Btw, there's no pangamut nor mano-mano as a system itself before the word system became in vogue.

el maldito de cebu
11-08-2008, 12:31 PM
I can respect that. I don't mind mano mano because I spoke Spanish before getting involved in FMA.

But that said, "el maldito" is also Spanish-derived. As are "eskrima", "arnis", "kamusta", and various other terms.

Does that one strike you as especially bothersome? Just curious.


Stuart
as I answer your question my fren as we all know phils. was collonised by spain for over 300years so how can you earse that in history. I can speak spanish because I'am partly spanish but yet I'am native to cebu I'am just giving value to where I did come from. to sum up I'am both with spanish and filipino influence. and to give more info bro. trives in phils are also influence by the neighboring nation manila is influnce by indo-malue region northern part with mix spanish. central luzon is heavily influence by chinese and indian culture with mix spanish and american with japanses and recently the korean migrants. southern part cebu is mostly indonesian parly malay and chinse with mix spanish and american. the waray in leyte are indo malayo +chinese southern leyte is american mix because of american troops stayed in the pacific campaign. Zamboanga heavily spanish and the dialect is dominant in spanish language. in the muslim mindanao heavily islamic influence by indian arab and arab people with chinse and indo-malayo with thai and portuguse influence. to add up in the pacific cost palawan is also indo-malayo with recent vietnam refugees and russian reffugees and in the bataan area had a dutch influence. now isnt' it reach with culture my friend? I hope I did give some input in my great country my freind? you can check it out my exercise demo on panagamot handgrip training dagger on youtube. search el maldito de cebu I appologize for the reception of the vid. I only use cellphone vidcam. I hope you can get some Idea on the demo

Gumagalang
el maldito de cebu

el maldito de cebu
11-08-2008, 12:37 PM
Exactly!
Mano-mano IS Filipino! In Spanish, it would be be mano y mano. If a Filipino will say mano y mano, it will sound and mean something else.
Btw, there's no pangamut nor mano-mano as a system itself before the word system became in vogue.
my fend to add an info pangamot before is jsut an ability not yet a system because it is still hybernating an as I recall old folks in the barrio with abilidad tend not to share thre knowledge you know some filipino culture very secretive just like tha assasins of japan the ninjas upto know there history in the ninja is still not clear because they hide there secret that will jsut like in the old filipino folks who discoverd ther ability by accident with no name yet and later became popular and was called pangamot, panontokan, tapi-tapi and manomanohttp://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon7.gif intiendo
gumagalang
raffy

el maldito de cebu
11-08-2008, 12:40 PM
I almost forgot, Panggamut is not a system, it is a piece or part of most systems. Just like Dumog is a piece or part of most systems...........
my friend here in cebu there are some clubs that really concentrated on pangamot alone so we cant called it as part because pangamot alone is already a system just like the emty hand karate ot aikido but still they manage to have weapons right? I'am jsut adding some valuable info tnx also for giving some info and opinions.

gumagalang
el maldito de cebu

ap Oweyn
11-08-2008, 12:50 PM
as I answer your question my fren as we all know phils. was collonised by spain for over 300years so how can you earse that in history. I can speak spanish because I'am partly spanish but yet I'am native to cebu I'am just giving value to where I did come from. to sum up I'am both with spanish and filipino influence. and to give more info bro. trives in phils are also influence by the neighboring nation manila is influnce by indo-malue region northern part with mix spanish. central luzon is heavily influence by chinese and indian culture with mix spanish and american with japanses and recently the korean migrants. southern part cebu is mostly indonesian parly malay and chinse with mix spanish and american. the waray in leyte are indo malayo +chinese southern leyte is american mix because of american troops stayed in the pacific campaign. Zamboanga heavily spanish and the dialect is dominant in spanish language. in the muslim mindanao heavily islamic influence by indian arab and arab people with chinse and indo-malayo with thai and portuguse influence. to add up in the pacific cost palawan is also indo-malayo with recent vietnam refugees and russian reffugees and in the bataan area had a dutch influence. now isnt' it reach with culture my friend? I hope I did give some input in my great country my freind? you can check it out my exercise demo on panagamot handgrip training dagger on youtube. search el maldito de cebu I appologize for the reception of the vid. I only use cellphone vidcam. I hope you can get some Idea on the demo

Gumagalang
el maldito de cebu
Please don't get me wrong, mate. I'm not suggesting, for one moment, that you shouldn't take pride in your heritage. Or that you shouldn't value what's uniquely Filipino. I was just wondering if there was something specific about that term. That's all.

I can certainly understand that people's feelings on any colonizing culture must be... a bit mixed. I was just wondering.

In any event, I appreciate any cultural insights that come up in these conversations. So thanks for that.


Stuart

el maldito de cebu
11-08-2008, 12:58 PM
Please don't get me wrong, mate. I'm not suggesting, for one moment, that you shouldn't take pride in your heritage. Or that you shouldn't value what's uniquely Filipino. I was just wondering if there was something specific about that term. That's all.

I can certainly understand that people's feelings on any colonizing culture must be... a bit mixed. I was just wondering.

In any event, I appreciate any cultural insights that come up in these conversations. So thanks for that.


Stuart
yap I can well understand spanish as well as speaking also the specific insight mano-mano means not a deffense it just manual. mano is hand in bisaya kamot is hand but when you say hand deffense from the combined word mate panga-mens to use kamot hand. together pangamot. if I said mano-mano it means hand and hand doesnt make it a deffence. if i said in my dialect what did you use to fix the cars tire he said manomano lang it means I fix it manually. see the distinction there.. I hope I added some food for tought mate. I'am a local in cebu so trust me its for realhttp://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Gumagalang
el maldito de cebu

Raul
11-09-2008, 02:14 AM
my friend here in cebu there are some clubs that really concentrated on pangamot alone so we cant called it as part because pangamot alone is already a system just like the emty hand karate ot aikido but still they manage to have weapons right? I'am jsut adding some valuable info tnx also for giving some info and opinions.

gumagalang
el maldito de cebu
In this post, you say pangamut is already a system but in the preceding post you were saying pangamut is not yet a system because its still hibernating?!?!?! Which is which? No intiendo mi amigo.
Pangamut only means anything that can be done by the hands. Mano-mano means hand-to-hand combat. While you can use pangamut about things not related to combat, mano-mano is specifically about combat. It means two combatants agreed or thrown to fight hand-to-hand without weapons at least at the initial phase of the fight.

el maldito de cebu
11-09-2008, 09:18 AM
In this post, you say pangamut is already a system but in the preceding post you were saying pangamut is not yet a system because its still hibernating?!?!?! Which is which? No intiendo mi amigo.
Pangamut only means anything that can be done by the hands. Mano-mano means hand-to-hand combat. While you can use pangamut about things not related to combat, mano-mano is specifically about combat. It means two combatants agreed or thrown to fight hand-to-hand without weapons at least at the initial phase of the fight.
I told you in the revolutionization of pangamot my frend it is not yet a system but now in the modern world it evolve in a sysstem I would try to contact those guys here in cebu that there main system is pangamot and they relly mostly on it than weapons if you want to see a demonstration on pangamot dagger hand grip based on our system just search in you tube el maldito de cebu. as I said again I was refering to the proper usage of the word not the system. for example panuntokan from root word sontok means to punch how can it be empty hand deffence. mano-mano and pangmot are both combative my fren. if it was not combative then it would not reach upto USSF curriculum if it wasnt effective. once again I was not reffering to the system the proper usage of filipino worlds. if you dont believe me pls. try to explore on a filipino english dictionary. i hope I did clear the word

ap Oweyn
11-09-2008, 10:40 AM
As I said before, I think this might be a question of style. We're both from Cacoy Doce Pares. And I interviewed GM Cacoy years ago, when he was beginning to formalize his pangamot. So I think, within DP, the definition is probably pretty definite. But outside of DP, probably not so much.


Stuart

Raul
11-09-2008, 11:27 AM
I think Doce Pares was the first to formalize pangamot as a FMA version similar to empty hand arts of JKA or CMA. To others it simply generic that can be used in many ways. Its like when you say, "I wanna learn pangamut.".. the other guy will look at you perflexed.

el maldito de cebu
11-09-2008, 12:10 PM
As I said before, I think this might be a question of style. We're both from Cacoy Doce Pares. And I interviewed GM Cacoy years ago, when he was beginning to formalize his pangamot. So I think, within DP, the definition is probably pretty definite. But outside of DP, probably not so much.


Stuart
tnx for the calrification oweyn so that some of our brod. will be enlightened. yes it is diffinite if in our style is concern. but there are still some old folks living in the mountain area had there own style of pangamot abilidad that formulated in there own experience and was developed. there is no such thing as generic in pangamot every practitioner has its own unique system specially here in cebu the system just keeps on developing and evolving both through experience expirement and evolution of the art been developed. if you want to see some demo I got some on youtube search el maldito de cebu on youtube i demonstrated on the use of dagger handgrip next time I'l make dagger kings grip demo.
Salamat for helping me explain. shoi.....http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

ap Oweyn
11-09-2008, 04:10 PM
You're welcome mate

Master Vince
12-26-2008, 10:20 PM
Hi Everyone, may I introduce myself, my name is Grand Master Vince Palumbo, and I am a senior student of Supreme Grand Master Cacoy Canete in Cebu City, Philippines.

I hold the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt in Cacoy Doce Pares Eskrima and also in the Cacoy Pangamot Filipino Jiu Jitsu as well. (I'm also a World Champion Stickfighter!)

Allow me to give you a brief overview of the Cacoy Pangamot Filipino Jiu Jitsu style as taught by the great SGM Cacoy Canete in the Cebu C.D.P.E.W.F. Headquarters, ok!

Firstly, it is definately a hybrid style of martial arts, and its definately not limited in any way, because this system has been formulated by Supreme Grand Master Cacoy, so that it helps the student to understand all of the different ranges of empty handed self defence, and this is what Pangamot cosists of now, because these are the arts that SGM Cacoy studied over the years, and he was highly ranked in all of them too.

1) Judo (He was taught original Kodokan style Judo, and it was still very combative!)
2) Jujitsu (He learned the techniques from Japanese sailors before and after the war!)
3) Karate (He studied an Okinawan style of karate!)
4) Aikido (SGM Cacoy was highly ranked in Aikido!)
5) Kung Fu (He studied this style from some Chinese people in Cebu!)
6) Western Boxing (He was an amateur boxer in his high school years!)
7) Wrestling (He studied wrestling in his college years!)
8) Arnis, Kali, Eskrima and Pangolisi (He learned these styles from his family members!)

The SGM cacoy has put this together in a way that seems so very practical, and it all makes a lot of sense too, because he has combined the techniques and elements into this very combative system, and it is very applicable in a real street confrontation.

Kicks- are used as a long range weapon, and they are mainly directed towards both of the attacker's knees.

Boxing- punches are thrown in combinations, especially to the head and body.
Karate- punches are directed with force to the liver, solar plexus, sternum and heart.
Knees & elbows- are incorporated at close range fighting.(Head butts are also used!)
Aikido and Jujitsu- locks, chokes, throws and takedowns are used at grabbing range.
Combat Judo and Wrestling- are used at the grappling range on the ground.

All the weapon disarms and the use of fighting sticks, daggers and sword techniques are all taught from the Pangolisi, Eskrima, Arnis and Kali martial art styles.

This style was developed for self defence, and SGM Cacoy put it to the test on many occassions in the area of San Nicholas in Cebu, because it is a very rough and tough side of town.

The old people still talk about the great 'CACOY' and his many street confrontations!

The Filipino's are only interested to learn and use techniques that work in a real fight, and this will also include the use of a weapon if there are more than one attackers.

The Filipino weaponry style also teaches many weapon dis-arms as well.

So may I say that the Cacoy Pangamot Filipino Jiu Jitsu is a very practical form of Self Defence in a real street fight or encounter!

Salamat to you all, regards from GM Vince Palumbo (Australia)

oosh
12-26-2008, 10:45 PM
Thanks for the info GM Palumbo. A bit off-topic, but do you know whether SGM Cacoy was involved in the resistance during WWII?

arnisador
12-27-2008, 12:16 AM
I knew that Cacoy Canete had a varied background in Japanese grappling arts but didn't realize it was that extensive!

Pat OMalley
12-28-2008, 08:58 AM
Thanks for the info GM Palumbo. A bit off-topic, but do you know whether SGM Cacoy was involved in the resistance during WWII?Yes he was as was the other Canete Brothers along with the Savedraas.

Mangtas
12-28-2008, 12:55 PM
Just a point of clarification regarding the terms "Pangamut" and "Panantukan" and a brief historical background regarding the difference in language for the benefit of those who are not natives of the Philippines.

Pangamut is a visayan term meaning "hand skills", Bisaya or Cebuano being the major dialect spoken in both the Visayas and Mindanao, the central and southernmost regions of the Philippine Archipelago respectively. While Panantukan which is a misnomer in my opinion since the proper term should be "Panuntukan" which is a Tagalog term meaning "Punching" from the root word "suntok" meaning "punch" comes from the major dialect spoken in Luzon, the northernmost region of the Philippines. When they colonized the archipelago, the Spanish colonizers set up their central government in Manila making it the capital of their colony. The Spaniards then later on ceded the Philippines to the U.S. after losing the Spanish-American war and the Americans like the Spaniards before them established their central government in Manila. This established Manila which is in central Luzon as the historical seat of power of the whole archipelago so that when the Philippines gained independence later on, Tagalog was made the basis for the Filipino national language and became officially called Pilipino.

oosh
12-28-2008, 01:34 PM
Thanks for the info Pat. For me this is what stands FMA apart from many others arts.

kungfumaste3
12-30-2008, 08:55 PM
I love Filipino martial Arts...
do we have street fighting technique? :)

that is the common fight here and street is the ring!