Filipino Swords--Pictures.

[arnisador]

Search for your favorite Filipino sword here (e.g. ginunting):
http://www.vikingsword.com

Note: I have edited the specific links out of this post at the request of a user whose pictures may be being used there inappropriately.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thanks for the pictures. Good stuff.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[kuntawguro]

www.reflectionsofasia.com/bolo.htm
www.reflectionsofasia.com/kris.htm

[kabaroan]

Reflections of Asia has some great stuff. I plan on dropping by there when I can arrange an appointment and purchase of the bolos.

I've been there before, I had purchased a Manansala address book. Vicente Manansala is my dad's first cousin (I guess that makes us second cousins???)

[kuntawguro]

I am an avid collector of Indonesian, Indochinese, and Filipino weapons

http://www.geocities.com/avengergt/bolos.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/avengergt/dsc01010.jpg

[arnisador]

I couldn't get the second link to work, but the first link already contains a fair amount of swords!

[MPC1257]

Here's a site that some of you might find interesting for filipino weapons.

http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/

[Labantayo]

Here's a site that some of you might find interesting for filipino weapons.

http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/


They look like they're made in Baguio. They're also not accurate with name or form, to the blades they're supposedly trying to imitate. There's a history/description of how these swords are used up on Youtube that isnt accurate either.

Other than that, they're nice wallhangers..

[zelbone]

They look like they're made in Baguio. They're also not accurate with name or form, to the blades they're supposedly trying to imitate. There's a history/description of how these swords are used up on Youtube that isnt accurate either.

Other than that, they're nice wallhangers..


They're ok for martial artist if you're looking for a reproduction....but far from being traditional or genuine from the collector's point of view.

[Imua Kuntao]

Here is my webpage with pictures of my bolo collection. These were handmade and a few of them were used.http://imuakuntao.multiply.com/:sword2:

[PG Michael B]

Nice pare..some of those look familiar..lol

[arnisador]

Here is my webpage with pictures of my bolo collection. These were handmade and a few of them were used.http://imuakuntao.multiply.com/

Some interesting knives in the last two pictures!

[Imua Kuntao]

The last two are small Filipino and Indonesian knives, I bought the second from Guru Erik Kruk. I like to practice with all sizes, especially the ones that can be hidden easliy, yes I do have several plastic/cold steel shaped like knives which can be used if nesseccary.

[mabagani]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPC1257 http://fmatalk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?p=23222#post23222)
Here's a site that some of you might find interesting for filipino weapons.

http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labantayo http://fmatalk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?p=24554#post24554)
They look like they're made in Baguio. They're also not accurate with name or form, to the blades they're supposedly trying to imitate. There's a history/description of how these swords are used up on Youtube that isnt accurate either.

Other than that, they're nice wallhangers..




They're ok for martial artist if you're looking for a reproduction....but far from being traditional or genuine from the collector's point of view.


I agree, the site sells non-traditional blade forms with inaccurate descriptions from the view of collectors who have done their own research and study real old weaponry.

[kaliman1978]

does anybody have a hook up on ginuntings? I know about Ron from Conneticut, but I wanted to see if there was anyone else who sells them for a better price.

[rshawtx]

I do beg to differ about the weapons on Ron's site. They are not wall hangers by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite functional. I say this because I own one and it *will* take a beating. I also know of others who own different items and actually use them. So as far as them being purely decorative in nature, again I beg to differ.

I've also seen what cheap weapons are in the market place and these aren't them. Have the weapons on Ron's site been dressed up and refined so that they don't look like the cheaply made "palengke specials"... you betcha!

With regards to the description on YouTube... I am not Tuhon's apologist. Sori. :)

As far as their forms, I can say this. Growing up in Luzon (particularly in the southern Tagalog region), I am familiar with the Itak and can say that that is accurate. Living in Mindanao, I know the Pinute is also quite accurate. Same for the Golok/Gulok. I don't pretend to be an expert on all of them though and can only speak for the ones I've encountered growing up. If the other folks who share a differing opinion than mine can elaborate as to what constitutes the inaccuracies rather than make carte blanc statements, I for one would find it partucilarly enlightening. Gimme a for-instance. Really, I'd like to hear from you guys if you've had more exposure to them. I am not being coy or under-handed here... I will take knowledge and truth where I can find it. Even better, if you have alternate sites that sell real, authentic and *functional* (emphasis added on that last one) items I would like to see what's on offer and I am sure the proprietors would love the referral as well. It's a win-win situation all around.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ron's ginuntings are excellent, durable and extremely functional and this is from someone who owns several from different sources. (some which are antique) http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[kaliman1978]

I agree that Ron's blades are very nice. My training partner owns one of Ron's ginuntings and a hagabis and they are very nice and very FUNCTIONAL. I was just seeing if there was anyone who has something similar for a little less than what he charges. As far as funtionality goes that is a concern, but I'm not engaging any terrorist in the Phillipines where I would need my weapon to be highly functional. More than anything I want one for a conversation piece and something to play with from time to time when I feel the need to train with a long blade instead of my sticks.

[mabagani]

I do beg to differ about the weapons on Ron's site. They are not wall hangers by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite functional. I say this because I own one and it *will* take a beating. I also know of others who own different items and actually use them. So as far as them being purely decorative in nature, again I beg to differ.

I've also seen what cheap weapons are in the market place and these aren't them. Have the weapons on Ron's site been dressed up and refined so that they don't look like the cheaply made "palengke specials"... you betcha!

With regards to the description on YouTube... I am not Tuhon's apologist. Sori. :)

As far as their forms, I can say this. Growing up in Luzon (particularly in the southern Tagalog region), I am familiar with the Itak and can say that that is accurate. Living in Mindanao, I know the Pinute is also quite accurate. Same for the Golok/Gulok. I don't pretend to be an expert on all of them though and can only speak for the ones I've encountered growing up. If the other folks who share a differing opinion than mine can elaborate as to what constitutes the inaccuracies rather than make carte blanc statements, I for one would find it partucilarly enlightening. Gimme a for-instance. Really, I'd like to hear from you guys if you've had more exposure to them. I am not being coy or under-handed here... I will take knowledge and truth where I can find it. Even better, if you have alternate sites that sell real, authentic and *functional* (emphasis added on that last one) items I would like to see what's on offer and I am sure the proprietors would love the referral as well. It's a win-win situation all around.
The erroneous "carte blanche" is the liberty to call replicas - "traditional" ...the site reveals they are made non-traditionally with modern tools and that they do not come from the perspective traditional origins.
The descriptions are also hard to stomach for anyone who has done their own research...
"for instance"- the kampilan is made with the hilt on *backwards* and described as a "headhunter" sword while to Moros/Muslims that would be a non-Islamic practice...and "hair added for appeal and intimidation"? also not true, it has cultural significance.
It's a business and sure anything with a sharp edge can be made functional...but many of the hilt and blade forms verge on fantasy and the info may have been written to sell products...
Doesn't really help this generation and the next searching for truth and facts.
It comes down to preference, I collect antiques and do my own research, once and awhile I'll pick up newer blades if they're well made and from their point of origin, win-win, being money goes to local makers/economies and keeps the traditional arts alive. So I have a bolo from Ilocos, sansibar from the Visayas, kalis from Sulu, head ax from the Mountain Province, etc...

[Brian R. VanCise]

The erroneous "carte blanche" is the liberty to call replicas - "traditional" ...the site reveals they are made non-traditionally with modern tools and that they do not come from the perspective traditional origins.
The descriptions are also hard to stomach for anyone who has done their own research...
"for instance"- the kampilan is made with the hilt on *backwards* and described as a "headhunter" sword while to Moros/Muslims that would be a non-Islamic practice...and "hair added for appeal and intimidation"? also not true, it has cultural significance.
It's a business and sure anything with a sharp edge can be made functional...but many of the hilt and blade forms verge on fantasy and the info may have been written to sell products...
Doesn't really help this generation and the next searching for truth and facts.
It comes down to preference, I collect antiques and do my own research, once and awhile I'll pick up newer blades if they're well made and from their point of origin, win-win, being money goes to local makers/economies and keeps the traditional arts alive. So I have a bolo from Ilocos, sansibar from the Visayas, kalis from Sulu, head ax from the Mountain Province, etc...

I would agree on some of the descriptions being off and some of the blades being different than designs I am more familiar with. Still he does have some excellent blades on there. The ginunting is just one example.

[Spunjer]

I do beg to differ about the weapons on Ron's site. They are not wall hangers by any stretch of the imagination. They are quite functional. I say this because I own one and it *will* take a beating. I also know of others who own different items and actually use them. So as far as them being purely decorative in nature, again I beg to differ.

I've also seen what cheap weapons are in the market place and these aren't them. Have the weapons on Ron's site been dressed up and refined so that they don't look like the cheaply made "palengke specials"... you betcha!

With regards to the description on YouTube... I am not Tuhon's apologist. Sori. :)

As far as their forms, I can say this. Growing up in Luzon (particularly in the southern Tagalog region), I am familiar with the Itak and can say that that is accurate. Living in Mindanao, I know the Pinute is also quite accurate. Same for the Golok/Gulok. I don't pretend to be an expert on all of them though and can only speak for the ones I've encountered growing up. If the other folks who share a differing opinion than mine can elaborate as to what constitutes the inaccuracies rather than make carte blanc statements, I for one would find it partucilarly enlightening. Gimme a for-instance. Really, I'd like to hear from you guys if you've had more exposure to them. I am not being coy or under-handed here... I will take knowledge and truth where I can find it. Even better, if you have alternate sites that sell real, authentic and *functional* (emphasis added on that last one) items I would like to see what's on offer and I am sure the proprietors would love the referral as well. It's a win-win situation all around.


hi guys. new here. long time lurker...

rshawtx,
are you familiar with this:

Herbert W Krieger's The Collection of Primitive Weapons and Armor of the Philippine Islands in the United States National Museum

this is but a small sample of our heritage, which unfortunately, has been long forgotten. this was cataloged back in 1926 and tho it's not accurate nomenclature wise on the few sandatas, these are the real deal, collected from the not so distant Philippine-American War. i hate to say this, but to answer you inquiries in a single post, or even a single thread would be an insult to our ancestors pride and joy. a book was written in 1998 regarding the most popular moro swords namely the kris, barung, kampilan, pira, panabas, and bangkung. if you're familiar with the ever popular Weapons of Moroland plaque, you will see that the weapons mentioned are just six of myriad of weapons in that plaque. and we're talking that's just in Mindanao.

here's your for-instance:
here's his version of what he call a Kris:

http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/Images/Sandata%20Large/Kris4.jpg

and here's the real deal (Sulu kris circa 1800's)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/59d99d71.jpg


i'm sure you can see the difference. to begin with, the guards are way off; the distinguishing tribal marks is missing; the asang-asang, or stirrup are/is missing; etc.
to say that the blades are similar because they are both wavy and it flairs out towards the handle, well, so is this sword, which is indonesian:

http://www.ancient-east.com/antiques/as-keris-cls.jpg

hope this helps.

[rshawtx]

That was a great post Spunger. No I am not familiar with that book. I will have to check that out when I visit my local library. My dad did have a "Weapons of Moroland" plaque that we had in ouy room growing up.

The carte blanche statement I was refering to was the allusion that "all" the items were "wallhangers". Are they replicas of the real thing, yes. Are they all made in one place in the Philippines, definitely. Should Ron change the name to nicelymadecommercialgradefunctionalfilipinoweaponr eplicas.com? It would probably not do so well. Its a business and we all can appreciate a certain level of marketing. But I think the original poster wanted something they could use and not break the bank as opposed to a high-priced antique. :)

Like I said, I can only speak for the ones I am familiar with (i.e. the itak, golok and pinute). I confess I am not an expert on the kris and concede that the commercial nature of the blades do not reflect the exact detail a real/antique kris would have. We can all agree that this amount of detail would drive the price upward because of the man hours involved in such an endeavor. It would also be a one-of-a-kind and definitely not commercial. I for one wouldn't probably want to use something that would cost an arm and a leg for everyday use. My financial situation also wouldn't allow me to spend that much on a conversation piece. So I guess it boils down to how much you want to spend and what you want to do with it.

I can see we have some experts on the site. This is what its all about... the free disemination of knowledge.

[Spunjer]

The carte blanche statement I was refering to was the allusion that "all" the items were "wallhangers". Are they replicas of the real thing, yes. Are they all made in one place in the Philippines, definitely. Should Ron change the name to nicelymadecommercialgradefunctionalfilipinoweaponr eplicas.com? It would probably not do so well. Its a business and we all can appreciate a certain level of marketing. But I think the original poster wanted something they could use and not break the bank as opposed to a high-priced antique. :)as an analogy, i love using the american handguns of yore as an example. can you imagine if i start selling replicas of the "gun that won the west" 1873 Colt Peacemaker with a little twist like say, make it a .22 cal instead of .45 and make it a 12 shooter instead of 6? i wonder what kind of feedback i would get from historians and gun aficionados, NRA and your typical Bubba for desecrating a legendary pistol. but wait, it's just a replica, ain't it? hey, if i put it next to an antique peacemaker, it's about the same size except for the minor detail like 12 shooter or .22 cal. and then, on top of that, lemme add some make believe story behind it like

"this pistol was originally designed to stop the peyote induced incas that once terrorized the badlands of wyoming. the legendary Texas Rangers would pop 6 of those .22 cal slug on the face and the rest towards the body, rendering the crazed inca incapacitated, then the Ranger would cautiously approach the stunned inca and finish him off by holding the pistol by barrel and hitting the savage in the head with the wooden handle."

i know i'd prolly get feathered and tarred and that's because the weapon is revered.

in our case, not too many people knows about what our ancestors had. there are a few people nowadays who study these weapons, and tries to preserve the knowledge, in hope that it could be preserved and not lost in the mist of time. this is our gift to our children, and theirs as well. it might be silly to some people that are not serious about this, but as a filipino, there are a few things that we can be really proud of and call ang sariling atin, or our very own. for someone to desecrate these heirlooms, and spread false information just to make a few bucks in the expense of our heritage, to me is unacceptable. as mabagani put it:


The erroneous "carte blanche" is the liberty to call replicas - "traditional" ...the site reveals they are made non-traditionally with modern tools and that they do not come from the perspective traditional origins.
The descriptions are also hard to stomach for anyone who has done their own research...
"for instance"- the kampilan is made with the hilt on *backwards* and described as a "headhunter" sword while to Moros/Muslims that would be a non-Islamic practice...and "hair added for appeal and intimidation"? also not true, it has cultural significance.
It's a business and sure anything with a sharp edge can be made functional...but many of the hilt and blade forms verge on fantasy and the info may have been written to sell products...
Doesn't really help this generation and the next searching for truth and facts.this is a free country and sure, you have every right to defend this seller, rshawtx, and that's fine, but i hope that you can also see from the people that study and preserved these treasures.




Like I said, I can only speak for the ones I am familiar with (i.e. the itak, golok and pinute). I confess I am not an expert on the kris and concede that the commercial nature of the blades do not reflect the exact detail a real/antique kris would have. We can all agree that this amount of detail would drive the price upward because of the man hours involved in such an endeavor. It would also be a one-of-a-kind and definitely not commercial. I for one wouldn't probably want to use something that would cost an arm and a leg for everyday use. My financial situation also wouldn't allow me to spend that much on a conversation piece. So I guess it boils down to how much you want to spend and what you want to do with it.IMHO, either you do it the right way, or you don't. there are other sites that stays true to form. as far as how much one wants to spend, it's not as bad as you think, price wise. you want a real conversation piece with the real history behind it? i can sell you the real deal: an antique (late 1800's)Tausug Kris with laminated blade(less scabbard) for what he's asking on one of his pseudo kris, or a WW2 Visayan Tenegre with scabbard at that same price :) as for everyday use, i have a turn of a century Panay Binangon that i got for a song from an antique store, and an old Barung in my car in case i have the sudden urge to pull over and cut a tree limb ;). again, a flea market special for $75.00
these blades, the antiques are so well done, that i know some people and personally used some for cutting. fact.

[Imua Kuntao]

I have a few I bought at a flea market I dont pay 75.oo but have paid 45.00 for a REALLY NICE KRIS, I have also barong/burung short and long I paid 40 a piece for. Ebay can be expensive, it depends on what a person wants. On ebay you cant feel or hold it and you could end up getting tin or copper. I have a blade from the site mentioned and it is way cool, and can be used for work.

[zelbone]

Search for your favorite Filipino sword here (e.g. ginunting):
http://www.vikingsword.com

Note: I have edited the specific links out of this post at the request of a user whose pictures may be being used there inappropriately.


That's funny because of the avatar for this forum section of the two crossed Ilongo swords were of two of my swords in a pic I posted on the vikingsword.com forum. It was obviously photoshopped so the swords were crossed. A few members here on this forum can verify that fact...they've actually handled those two swords.

[arnisador]

I'm double-checking now, but I'm pretty sure that we didn't manipulate the picture...it was found via web search and we believed it to be for free use. If it's your copyrighted work we will certainly replace it!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[zelbone]

I'm double-checking now, but I'm pretty sure that we didn't manipulate the picture...it was found via web search and we believed it to be for free use. If it's your copyrighted work we will certainly replace it!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin


I understand that by posting pictures on the internet (even for well meaning educational reasons) that there is a possibility that they may be downloaded by any number of people and used by them for whatever reasons they wish. They may be even photoshopped or used or taken out of context or misidentified. And most people that repost those pics don't credit the source of those pics. I can't count how many times I've seen pictures of my swords used to decorate or embelish FMA website, MySpace, Friendster, Facebook profiles, or used as examples in sword/martial arts forums...without my knowledge or permission. That is why I rarely post pics of any of my swords publicly anymore because of misuse. I do find it flattering that those people do appreciate my pics and my swords to use them as an example, but credit and permission should be obtained first. I wouldn't mind then. And unfortunately because of this, several other collectors (some of which are members of this forum) will rarely post pics publicly of their swords. It's sad because genuine examples of Filipino fighting swords are rarely posted when information is sought out about them. Instead crass commercial copies or tourist junk are posted...not the true swords that shaped FMA.

What is worse is when swords of mine have been copied from the pictures and commericalized without fully understanding the sword itself. Several forum members here know what I'm talking about.

[arnisador]

We'll replace the picture. Thanks for letting us know.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[krock1092]

They look like they're made in Baguio. They're also not accurate with name or form, to the blades they're supposedly trying to imitate. There's a history/description of how these swords are used up on Youtube that isnt accurate either.

Other than that, they're nice wallhangers..

I am going to order a few of their blades and I showed the site to a neighbor who is from Baguio City and he smiled and said they were more like adaptations of original weapons. He was proud that these high quality weapons were being produced in the Philippines but he did say if I was looking for authentic reproductions I should look elsewhere.

So I guess those sold by Traditional Filipino Weapons are designed to have a more commercial appeal to collectors. Nothing wrong with that, but this brings me to my question, does anyone know I can purchase replicas that are more true to original design and form?

[Spunjer]

Imua Kuntao,

sounds like you found some great deal! but yeah, you just proved my point in that the average antique traditional filipino weapons, with enough diligence, in some case are cheaper than the replicas.

[zelbone]

So I guess those sold by Traditional Filipino Weapons are designed to have a more commercial appeal to collectors. Nothing wrong with that, but this brings me to my question, does anyone know I can purchase replicas that are more true to original design and form?

Why get the replica when you can get the real thing? Antiques aside, regional pandays still make their traditional swords. Most of the time they are made to order in the traditional manner and be made for a left or right handed user. You can still get a traditional ginunting made in Negros...just ask the DTS guys or PTK guys where they get theirs. And talibongs can still found in Negros and Panay. Sansibars are still made in the traditional manner in Leyte and pinutis and espadas can still be found all over Cebu. Practically anywhere in the Visayas traditional blades are still being made. Your masters in the Philippines to whatever system you study should be able to help you with this.

[zelbone]

Imua Kuntao,

sounds like you found some great deal! but yeah, you just proved my point in that the average antique traditional filipino weapons, with enough diligence, in some case are cheaper than the replicas.


This is so true! Not only that, but they would be true to form and lend themselves better to the techniques derived from them. Plus they would have a more interesting history.

[arnisador]

Moro Swords Page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/

[Malapitan]

Our website with pics of the Force Recon ginunting and our version of a Dahong Palay

http://www.typhoon-gear.com/

[arnisador]

Ooh, the Combat Ginunting looks nice!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ooh, the Combat Ginunting looks nice!

Hey Arnisador it is one really sweet blade! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[R. Mike Snow]

I am a major traditionalist and have to agree with Zelbone. If a blade is not made in its place of origin, it's NOT the real deal. I personally prefer the old style Ginunting, the "Binagon". GT can still get his hands on laminated blades, but they are getting harder to get every day. The Panday is just getting old and his siblings just cannot make them like the old man does. I hope people get a chance to get a blade or two that weighs 2 or 3 pounds that has some life to it and doesn't feel like a dead hunk of steel. Before it's too late. I think it's worth the extra cash and wait time to get great blades to keep the art alive. or Sandata will continue to be degraded and eventually become just as trashy as the fantasy blades mass produced in China and Pakistan. It may have already happened.

[arnisador]

Did you give yourself a new sword(s) for Christmas, Mr. Snow? :D

[R. Mike Snow]

Yes, but I couldn't wait until Christmas to open it Dr. Dumogero. I will send you a photo of it right now. But I also did the right thing and spent all of my cash on my family & girlfriend. So I was not able get my self a blades for pre, during and post Christmas gifts.

[arnisador]

Dude, looks nice!

[R. Mike Snow]

I was going to post the photos, but I couldn't get the html's to work from this lightning fast 56k connection. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_14_6.gif It is the thickest blade I have right now, even thicker than my Garab. Out of the tortoise shell sheath it weighs in at 3lbs 1oz and she so fat, 13/32" thick and 26 5/8" long. The only Ginunting I know of that might be heavier is Pendakar's, his is like 31 7/8" long or so, maybe longer I am not sure. I had it at John's P.I.G. two years ago at our first Sandata Show.

[Brock]

....this lightning fast 56k connection....
At least I'm not the only one....

[arnisador]

My cable modem is your cable modem, dude!

Here's what Mr. Snow e-mailed me (downgraded in image quality to fit the site's file size requirements):

[R. Mike Snow]

I was way offf about Pendakar's Ginunting.........it's 33 7/8" in length. I will try to get us a shot of that monster next to a normal sized Ginunting and 28" baston.

Thanks Arnisador!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nice blade Mike! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[R. Mike Snow]

Thanks Brian,

Iam going to try to put a couple of more photos up later tonight when there are not as many people using the phone lines, hopefully that will help. John told me that you have blades too, got any pics for us?

[arnisador]

If you have trouble, e-mail them to me! (Use my work e-mail--it has a larger capacity.) I finally figured out how to shrink them which was my big holdup.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thanks Brian,

Iam going to try to put a couple of more photos up later tonight when there are not as many people using the phone lines, hopefully that will help. John told me that you have blades too, got any pics for us?

Hey Mike I will try and dust off a few of the antiques and take photos soon. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[R. Mike Snow]

Kool........Brian, can't wait!

[Taal-Water]

Hi,
Those Typhoon swords (http://www.typhoon-gear.com/products.htm) look excellent. Solid, practical--and the ginunting is supposed to be quite well balanced. (Thanks for the review, Brian.)

Does anybody have any opinions about their dahong palay? How authentic is the design (not that that's so vital for a blade designed with modern military specs in mind)? My family's from Batangas, and I don't remember anybody calling any blade a "dahong palay".

Also, I wonder how it would feel in the hand. And how practical it would be to do what the blades I've seen in Batangas do: that is, cut coconuts, wood, brush...

[R. Mike Snow]

Wow, I was really hoping to see some sweet blades on here. It's always nice to drool over someone else's pieces and give out an excited "CONGRATUALATIONS" to someone that picks up a true piece of art and/or a truly historical find.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_109v.gif

[davidtorez]

I would like to comment on Rons weaponry. These weapons are made of better steel than the antique steel (damascus type) and are more homogeneous in their carbon content being made from 5160 spring steel. While this may not be the traditional steel which was used by the pandays of the Philippines, it still is a better steel which holds up to much abuse without loosing its edge in a hurry. As these are not made to be collectibles in my opinion, they do make great training tools for cutting and or solo practice. I have a pinute from traditionalfilipinoweapons.com and it has a superb balance, and very very sharp. I would never use an antique sword for cutting anything as I would be too afraid of ruining something that has been passed down for generations, and would ultimately result in its destruction or devaluation.

Have a good one.

David Torez

[ThePepperskull]

I agree and disagree with people here who naysay Ron's "Traditional Filipino Weapons" wares. I can see where you guys are coming from but at the same time, you need to understand how others here may see things.

No, the pandays at TFW do not make historically accurate swords, you're right about that. YES, they do advertise them as being such. BUT you need to also realize that this is done in almost every sword company. Albion, Depeeka, Cas Iberia have all misadvertized their product at one point in time but that does not mean they're not functional.

On the contrary actually. The nontraditional construct of these weapons stems from the market of people who are into functional "Beaters". Basically, swords that will take as much punishment as humanly possible. From the metal used to the forging process to the end result, they come out being tough. Sometimes tougher than the traditionally made counterparts. This is due to a trend in modern sword collectors' called "Destruction testing" to abuse these blades until they break or have nothing left to cut with.

On that same token, however, we must examine the intended usage of actual traditinal filipino bladed weapons. The pinuti, as a working tool for example, is forged to have a softer HRC (Hardness scale) than, say, a pinuti from Ron's TFW website. Does that mean it's worse? no. Does that mean it's better? not necessarily. It just means that for most of the time, the only thing that a pinuti is meant to be used for is for softer targets. Brush clearing, butchering, etc etc. This softer forging on the HRC scale is NOT a sign of inferiority, it is so that it can have a sharper edge and once it dulls, it can be sharpened more easily. It's not recommended, but if you did a destruction test on a TFW blade, it would cut through some harder wood like pine while retaining its edge (which is ideally less sharp than a pinuti made by, say, jun silva from Cebu). the Phillippines does not have a lot of woods that hard (aside from kamagong, of course) and thus a pinuti doesn't need to be that hard on the HRC scale on account of it not being used as an axe. The HRC hardening on more modern "Beaters" is simply overkill, but overkill that several collectors or users find desirable, including myself at times.

AND I'm glad that they're still being made in the Philippines as opposed to being outsourced in other countries for modernized 'beater' production. Daniel Foronda Does amaing work with the TFW blades. Being baguio-made may not make something like a kris completely authentic, but once you see the quality in the sword you'd be proud to say it was made withing the borders of home... Even if visually it looks very oversimplified. Again, I treat them as austere, bare-balls minimum-looking functional training tools. They lack the beauty of a layered steel, okir-design on the hilt kind of kris, but I believe the beauty of these replicas are in the details/function.

This non-traditional build of traditional-looking silhouettes is common not only in filipino blades, but among european swords and swords from cultures around the world. It is not uncommon. Is it a sign of Globalization? Perhaps. Will our traditions be sacrificed for over-the-top function? Maybe, but I certainly doubt it. Although globally we're getting a reputation in the Philippines as makers of some of the toughest modern 'beaters' on the market... and our people are known for adaptation. It's what we do best and it's what keeps us strong as filipinos.

Look at the Kris for example. I bet you when it evolved from the javanese keris and became in the islands the more commonly known Mindanao-type kris, Indonesians would have looked at them as complete deviations from what was originally their design. In part they would have been right, but also in part, it became to me a symbol of what is distinctly Filipino. This is how I see this particular issue.

Basically I believe the issue most of you have with TFW's blades is authenticity as opposed to function. Someone referred to these as "wallhangers". I believe they're too ugly to be displayed because they obviously do not look exactly authentic, but the blade geometry on these is amazing and they cut like demons.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Wow, I was really hoping to see some sweet blades on here. It's always nice to drool over someone else's pieces and give out an excited "CONGRATUALATIONS" to someone that picks up a true piece of art and/or a truly historical find.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_109v.gif


Hey Mike,

This will warm your soul! (from my collection)

[R. Mike Snow]

Ah yes, thank you Brian! Mow I have that warm cozy feeling in my heart. Congratulations! I have a similar Talibong, must be from the same panday....... : )

[R. Mike Snow]

OOOOPPSS! I just realized that I mistyped on several posts.

Binangon or Binanggong, not Bingon

[arnisador]

Beautiful!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thanks guy's!


Well I am out of here on vacation so everyone enjoy the beautiful 4th of July weather! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ah yes, thank you Brian! Mow I have that warm cozy feeling in my heart. Congratulations! I have a similar Talibong, must be from the same panday....... : )

No doubt they are from the same panday! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[ThePepperskull]

beautiful! I love the inclusion of the hand guard extending over the knuckles. :)

[ThePepperskull]

And as an add on to my first post, I think the operative phrase when thinking about what TFW's swords are exactly, I'd classify them as "Functional reproductions". They work just fine, and look similar to what they're modeled after, but by virtue of where and how they're constructed, they're not entirely authentic pieces.

It doesn't make them bad quality though, it just means that they're reproductions of the actual blades.

[lhommedieu]

On that same token, however, we must examine the intended usage of actual traditinal filipino bladed weapons. The pinuti, as a working tool for example, is forged to have a softer HRC (Hardness scale) than, say, a pinuti from Ron's TFW website. Does that mean it's worse? no. Does that mean it's better? not necessarily. It just means that for most of the time, the only thing that a pinuti is meant to be used for is for softer targets. Brush clearing, butchering, etc etc. This softer forging on the HRC scale is NOT a sign of inferiority, it is so that it can have a sharper edge and once it dulls, it can be sharpened more easily. It's not recommended, but if you did a destruction test on a TFW blade, it would cut through some harder wood like pine while retaining its edge (which is ideally less sharp than a pinuti made by, say, jun silva from Cebu). the Phillippines does not have a lot of woods that hard (aside from kamagong, of course) and thus a pinuti doesn't need to be that hard on the HRC scale on account of it not being used as an axe. The HRC hardening on more modern "Beaters" is simply overkill, but overkill that several collectors or users find desirable, including myself at times.

I understand what you mean and can offer the following analogy: when I used an axe a lot in Canada years ago I would sharpen mine every night with a bastard file. Sharpening was easy because of the low HRC scale of the old axe that I had at that time; the axe would also get very sharp very quickly. Now a-days I prefer to get things like old axes and old cooking knives, e.g. from eBay for the same reason: they take an edge quickly (although I have to sharpen them more frequently), and since I know how to use them correctly, the lower HRC doesn't bother me. The same kind of argument holds true for those who prefer a higher HRC, for different reasons, however.

Best,

Steve

[R. Mike Snow]

I understand what you mean and can offer the following analogy: when I used an axe a lot in Canada years ago I would sharpen mine every night with a bastard file. Sharpening was easy because of the low HRC scale of the old axe that I had at that time; the axe would also get very sharp very quickly. Now a-days I prefer to get things like old axes and old cooking knives, e.g. from eBay for the same reason: they take an edge quickly (although I have to sharpen them more frequently), and since I know how to use them correctly, the lower HRC doesn't bother me. The same kind of argument holds true for those who prefer a higher HRC, for different reasons, however.

Best,

Steve

How right you are my friend. Not to mention the fact that the battle real blades have have a different HRC on specific parts of the blade. A softer metal overall with a tempered edge and point. When GM brings blades in from Negros, you can see the temper lines if you look closely. it is sometimes not apparent at first, due to the polishing. A lot of the older blades I have from Panay and Negros are folded too. Adding even more strength and flexability to the blade. Now that's true craftsmanship.

The moral of the story is.............. SUPPORT YOUR REGIONAL PANDAY!

It does cost more to get the real thing and it takes a lot longer too. But is well worth it!

So far, Brian has the best reproduction I have seen. So close I thought it was an Ilonggo blade at first glance. Thumbs up!

i will post a comparison photo as soon as I can get the IMG Code kick'in........... I just got the PIG Talibong last week. Hope to post it real soon too.

[davidtorez]

Mike,

The folding of the steel in the forging process removes slag and impurities in the steel, and the layers of the steel that are seen are a by-product of this method. It does not add anymore strength and flexibility to the blade anymore than a monosteel carbon blade made by modern steel.

Have a good one.

David Torez

[R. Mike Snow]

Wow, i would like to have some more discussion on this topic, I have always been told that the more layers you have, the better. So many paper thin layers that they eventually become unnoticeable is best. The more the folds, not as beautiful of course but the better the flexibility of the blade. Which keeps it from snapping during those much hated impacts. Wouldn't that be considered stronger? Especially since the blade rebounds to its original shape.

[davidtorez]

Hi Mike,

When a steel is brittle, it is more prone to snapping than flexing. What mainly dictates how brittle a steel usually is, is the carbon content of the blade itself. The higher the carbon content, the more brittle the steel is. The folding pattern in the end products are only "better" aesthetically, and not from a performance standpoint. Mono steel blades which most modern swords are made from, start from a more pure steel with no impurities or slag, therefore not requiring the folding process. Putting it another way, I would much prefer to go to battle with a modern reproduction sword made from modern steel rather than a old antique which has been made in the old way. This is not to disparage the old methods, but we must remember that technology in metallurgy was not the same as it is now. There are always tradeoffs in this business. A blade with a higher carbon content will be stronger and hold an edge better, but be more prone to snapping, whilst a blade with lower carbon content will be softer, and more prone to bending, rather than snapping, but not hold an edge quite as well. As with most things in life, there are many more variables in this discussion such as blade geometry, single bevel / double bevel etc etc... So take this for what its worth.

Have a good one.

David Torez

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi David and thanks for your post!

I have to admit that I have not had much flight time with forging processes, but I was taught(not really taught but shown) three separate smiths, with one being in Sarawak. That having different levels of carbon are the key to a good blade. If the carbon level is consistent, wouldn't it actually be inferior? Limiting its performance? Don't we want a lower level of carbon through the body of the blade, keeping it from snapping and gradually tapering to higher carbon level the edge and point, to held a good cutting edge. Everyone here is posting about mono steel, the last thing I want in a blade. I know that it is hard to beet Vanadium alloys that are made to take long term punishment for something an axle. But alloys like that are not intended for holding an edge either. I had the chance to learn quite a bit about metalergy last semester, but none of the processes we covered really had anything to do with what I am interested in. Well, at least I do not ever plan on fighting with an ROV arm or a piece of angle iron anyway...... : )

[davidtorez]

Hi Mike,

Without getting too deep into the discussion, as it is impossible to explain everything in a simple online post, a homogeneous carbon content in a mono steel is preferable for making a bladed weapon that will see serious use, i.e armour cutting etc. For cutting merely flesh and bone, almost any sword will be able to do that. The way the traditional Japanese swordsmiths used to make their blades, was to wrap a lower carbon content steel with a higher carbon content outer steel as it was thought to have made the blade more flexible. However modern metallurgists have proven that this is not the case.
The temperline that is seen on all traditional Japanese swords and some Filipino swords comes from the edge of the blade cooling quicker than the rest of the blade, making it more brittle. Most Visayan blades are single bevelled anyway, which means they have more steel supporting the edge. As I said earlier, there are many variables in the production of swords. Ultimately it comes down to how well the thing is made, whether it be made traditionally or by modern means. Give a good metal to a poorly skilled swordsmith and the end product wont be so great, give a skilled swordsmith a crap piece of steel, and youll get something good. Give a skilled/experienced swordsmith a good piece of steel, and youll get the ultimate bladed weapon.

Have a good one.

David Torez

[ThePepperskull]

Yes, the folding process actually was used on steel with an uneven carbon distribution, with the intent to spread it more evenly and to remove impurities. The strength of a blade will depend on how it's forged.

A lot of myths involving the forging process have been spread orally, even the people who make the swords may not fully understand and just fold their blades because that's the way it's been done for ages. With new monosteel, it's not required, but a lot of pandays do it out of habit and to keep the tradition going. I like that.

As an interesting side note, my favourite traditional bladesmiths in general come from Indonesia. As an eskrima and a silat practitioner I've had experience with both weapons and find that Indonesia's weaponsmiths tend to make blades that hold their edge longer. Although, I hear wonders of iloilo's weapons and I collect both indonesian and filipino blades.

I recently got a sansibar from Carigara. A cousin of mine went around the phillippines and picked one up for me. Great blade.

[arnisador]

Lots of pictures here (a "Filipino weapons & history" site):
http://www.filhistory.com/igorot/

[ravi80k]

Lots of pictures here (a "Filipino weapons & history" site):
http://www.filhistory.com/igorot/


Thanks for the link, there are so much to read about. bookmarked.
Just look at this collection. Marvelous :D

http://woodside.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341f9d6353ef0120a551f423970b-800wi

[arnisador]

Beautiful!