How generic is the term 'Sinko Tiros/Senkotiros'?

[arnisador]

I hear this term used for the specific art of Mr. Pallen but also to describe a very wide array of traditional FMAs from which other systems have grown. Often when someone from the Phil. uses the term I assume he means to use it in almost the same way as we might use a generic 'arnis' or 'eskrima'. How widespread are arts that use this name? Do they have much in common other than five basic angles?

[Brock]

Senkotiros itself is specific to GM Pallen. Other than being based off of 5 angles, there isn't much similarity. The few other Cinco Tiros systems I've seen are primarily Largo mano, but Senkotiros doesn't really deal with Largo in that if you're that far away, you're not really in danger of being hit. The 5 angles that we use are also different from what the other styles I've seen use.

[arnisador]

Cinco Tiros

This is probably the most common spelling I've seen, and it sounds as though those are different systems!

[tim_stl]

Senkotiros doesn't really deal with Largo in that if you're that far away, you're not really in danger of being hit.

why? in range is in range, isn't it?


tim

[Brock]

At that range they have to hit your arm or hand, and even then you have to put it out there to be hit. If you don't engage at that range they can't hit you they need to move into a closer range to hit your body.

Arnisador- that's the most common version of the name that I've seen and they're nothing like Senkotiros. Sinko Teros I've never seen. There may be a slight relation as it seems that it also comes from Luzon, but it may be as if they are distant cousins that only share a similar name.

[tim_stl]

At that range they have to hit your arm or hand, and even then you have to put it out there to be hit. If you don't engage at that range they can't hit you they need to move into a closer range to hit your body.

i used to think that largo mano was as simple as hitting people on the hand or arm, but it's hard to base a whole system around that. in the cinco teros that i study (from laguna, originally from pampanga), we learn ways of engaging at that range, and i've never had a problem finding a fight in that range. it's hard to describe, but when i hear that there's no fight in largo if you don't stick your hand out, it's like hearing that there's no stickfight in corto because i'll just wrestle you.



tim

[Maharlika510]

Hi guys, first time poster here, but long time student of the Pallen family.

In terms of the name Senkotiros, it differs from the other "Cino Teros" in the teachings, concepts, and methodologies. Senkotiros goes far beyond the primary 5 angles of attack, in that there is a very high degree of sensitivity training and practical response. Additionally, Senkotiros is primarily a close range style.

With regards to the largo mano issue being discussed by Brock and Tim, yes, Senkotiros does train Largo Mano, along with Medio and Corto. In fact, when GM Pallen first taught me my first lesson in encircling an opponent, he taught me Largo as the initial training step. If we did not address largo mano, our Senkotiros system would not be as complete, hahaha!

Please note however, that our system focuses a lot on close range self-defense. The theory is that in a self-defense situation, say in an urban setting, one has the potential to diffuse the situation if two people are standing relatively far away (modified example of largo mano). At the medio range, one still has a choice to walk away or fight. However, at close range (corto), the threat level is much higher, thus our emphasis on close range training.

Tim, I hope I have provided some insight to your issue that you and Brock were talking about. A good eskrimador can engage an opponent at any range, especially largo. The Bahala Na guys in Stockton are a good example of that.

Going back to "Senkotiros" itself and "Cinco Teros," our system teaches students to realize the stick or knife as a training tool to develop good unarmed self-defense and proficient hands.

Again, I hope I've helped to illuminate some questions. Take care guys.

[USKS1]

Hi guys, first time poster here, but long time student of the Pallen family.

In terms of the name Senkotiros, it differs from the other "Cino Teros" in the teachings, concepts, and methodologies. Senkotiros goes far beyond the primary 5 angles of attack, in that there is a very high degree of sensitivity training and practical response. Additionally, Senkotiros is primarily a close range style.

With regards to the largo mano issue being discussed by Brock and Tim, yes, Senkotiros does train Largo Mano, along with Medio and Corto. In fact, when GM Pallen first taught me my first lesson in encircling an opponent, he taught me Largo as the initial training step. If we did not address largo mano, our Senkotiros system would not be as complete, hahaha!

Please note however, that our system focuses a lot on close range self-defense. The theory is that in a self-defense situation, say in an urban setting, one has the potential to diffuse the situation if two people are standing relatively far away (modified example of largo mano). At the medio range, one still has a choice to walk away or fight. However, at close range (corto), the threat level is much higher, thus our emphasis on close range training.

Tim, I hope I have provided some insight to your issue that you and Brock were talking about. A good eskrimador can engage an opponent at any range, especially largo. The Bahala Na guys in Stockton are a good example of that.

Going back to "Senkotiros" itself and "Cinco Teros," our system teaches students to realize the stick or knife as a training tool to develop good unarmed self-defense and proficient hands.

Again, I hope I've helped to illuminate some questions. Take care guys.

Joe,
Now that is a good description.... I tried to say something like this in another post, but you did it better..

We do work the largo and the circling "Tayada" footwork and getting in and out of range, but as Joe said more time is spent in Corto & Medio.

Tim,
I hear ya... If you have good footwork and timing you get in and get that shot in Largo, and it opens up the medio and corto pretty quick.

Remember ranges change in a heartbeat.. A good fighter will be in Largo going for the hand & be inside nailing you with abanikos in the blink of an eye.. Any complete system has to address all ranges, but some specialize more in a certain range than another.

Think about empty hand fighting also.. Things go from a long range kick to mid range punching to headbutts knees & elbows in the blink of an eye.

We gotta train it all so we can deal with it.. Only then can we begin to specialize.

Good posts!!

[Brock]

The theory is that in a self-defense situation, say in an urban setting, one has the potential to diffuse the situation if two people are standing relatively far away (modified example of largo mano). At the medio range, one still has a choice to walk away or fight. However, at close range (corto), the threat level is much higher, thus our emphasis on close range training.

This is what I was trying to get at. For some reason my brain wouldn't let me come up with that explaination. Thanks!

[arnisador]

i used to think that largo mano was as simple as hitting people on the hand or arm, but it's hard to base a whole system around that.

I was in a similar situation. We had a handful of largo techniques but I had no largo strategy beyond what you mention and some feints (which I am poor at). Mr. Agbulos of Lameco helped open my eyes!

[bmcoomes]

I have no knowledge of GM Pallen's Sinkotiros I am part of a Cinco Teros system Ninoy's Cinco Teros (NCT) to be exact from the Manaois family. From what I have seen of GM Pallen's material on Youtube (good stuff by the way) it is really nothing like NCT. From my limited understanding it's a system that was used for the tribe, meaning limited material but vary flexible in application. So there would be less training time in teaching material and more time getting combative. I hope that helps toward the discussion.

Thanks,

[tim_stl]

what are the five angles that you've learned? for the garimot cinco teros, we teach them to beginners in this order:



buhat araw (downward forehand)
aldabis (upward backhand)
saboy (upward forehand)
bartikal (downward backhand)
sak-sak (forehand thrust)




tim

[bmcoomes]

Tim,
Those are the same angles we learn, but then we apply a five count to the angel. So for angle one "buhat araw", you would strike downward forehand, upward backhand, thrust downward forehand to strike downward forehand (doblete), Thrust upward backhand. I hope that makes sense.

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnMsZD-BMdY) an old youtube video I did of the basic angles for MSI (Manaois Systems International) at 0:15 starts the NCT strikes I was talking about above. The pattern is out of order in regards to angles of attack but will help with understanding what I was talking about.

Thanks,

[tim_stl]

thanks for the video. your description matched the video well.

(btw- that question about the angles was for all readers. i'm interested in commonalities, especially if there is a reason the angles are what they are.)

looking at your other videos, garimot cinco teros also uses the equis footwork pattern, although one more is added to it (we call it 'handa') to make it five.



tim

[Brock]

GM Pallen's Senkotiros

1. Horizontal
2. Diagonal Down
3. Diagonal Up
4. Thrusting
5. Twisting

Whether it's a forehand or backhand strike doesn't matter. i.e. both the forehand and backhand horizontal strike are #1 strikes. An example of a #5 would be an Abaniko strike.

[bmcoomes]

Tim,
kewl, I thought I add to it with what I have. As far as the Equis we count the steps and so there is five steps, we use the centered position as far as counting goes.

Brock,
that makes sense in that it's more classifications of striking than angles of attack.

Thanks,

[Brock]

The level of the strike doesn't matter either. A horizontal aimed at the temple or at the knee are still #1's. I like the simplicity of it.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Cool Brock that is nice information! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[tim_stl]

Tim,
kewl, I thought I add to it with what I have. As far as the Equis we count the steps and so there is five steps, we use the centered position as far as counting goes.


then i think our footwork basics are the same, except our centered position has the feet shoulder width, instead of close. i even see familiarity in the striking patterns. it's good to see some more cinco teros that is similar to what i know.



tim

[arnisador]

The level of the strike doesn't matter either. A horizontal aimed at the temple or at the knee are still #1's. I like the simplicity of it.

It's much the same in Modern Arnis, and I agree!

[Carol]

Here's an bit of random trivia...

If "Five Strikes" were translated literally to Spanish, the term would be "Cinco Ataques" (five attacks).

The word tirar means "to throw". While it is possible for the noun form, tiro, to mean a throw, the noun most commonly means a shot. And, just like English, the term is most often associated with serious or fatal injuries.

So, Cinco Tiros = Five Shots. Think about that the next time you're hitting the tire. ;)

[arnisador]

Finally, a FFMA (Filipino Firearms Martial Art)!

[Carol]

When Guro Mike Williams has talked about training in the Philippines, he often spoke about how rigorous and hard core the masters are with the basics. As he put it, "They can kill you with just a single #1".

Bang, you're dead. No firearm needed. ;)

[Brock]

The word tirar means "to throw". While it is possible for the noun form, tiro, to mean a throw, the noun most commonly means a shot. And, just like English, the term is most often associated with serious or fatal injuries.

Actually GM Pallen made this point when he was teaching a seminar at my school. I'd have to dig out the video to see what he said exactly, but the gist of it was that the strikes were points of impact or "shots".

[saint o'killers]

i used to think that largo mano was as simple as hitting people on the hand or arm, but it's hard to base a whole system around that. in the cinco teros that i study (from laguna, originally from pampanga), we learn ways of engaging at that range, and i've never had a problem finding a fight in that range. it's hard to describe, but when i hear that there's no fight in largo if you don't stick your hand out, it's like hearing that there's no stickfight in corto because i'll just wrestle you.



tim


that's cus you know the magic footwork Tim...we both know that cinco teros all care about one range, and that range is just being "close enough" so you can cut down your oponent quickly. :)

[tim_stl]

that's cus you know the magic footwork Tim...we both know that cinco teros all care about one range, and that range is just being "close enough" so you can cut down your oponent quickly. :)

good to see you on here, mike. :)



tim

[5tirosCamarin]

i used to think that largo mano was as simple as hitting people on the hand or arm, but it's hard to base a whole system around that. in the cinco teros that i study (from laguna, originally from pampanga), we learn ways of engaging at that range, and i've never had a problem finding a fight in that range. it's hard to describe, but when i hear that there's no fight in largo if you don't stick your hand out, it's like hearing that there's no stickfight in corto because i'll just wrestle you.



tim


Our Grandmaster won't tell you that there's no fight in largo, but he will tell you that you don't have to fight at that range, because you can get away. He made an illustration just this weekend at a seminar G Brock hosted. He did a little freestyle twirling and as he did, he asked, "are you going to walk up to somebody doing this?" He teaches us to only fight if we're backed into a corner or if there's no other way to get away. We don't ignore largo, though. GM Pallen teaches us how to engage at that range in case we need to but we usually end up in medio or corto.

[5tirosCamarin]

Hmm.. my wording might be ambiguous in my quotation of GM Pallen... I should have said it like this: "Are you going to walk up to somebody that's doing this?"

[yosefalan]

At the medio range, one still has a choice to walk away or fight.



...really?? because in medio as I've seen it defined 1 or both of you are getting cut to bits!

[5tirosCamarin]

Wow, I guess I wasn't paying attention.. this is a way more thorough, and better way of saying what I said... haha... and you said it first!


Hi guys, first time poster here, but long time student of the Pallen family.

In terms of the name Senkotiros, it differs from the other "Cino Teros" in the teachings, concepts, and methodologies. Senkotiros goes far beyond the primary 5 angles of attack, in that there is a very high degree of sensitivity training and practical response. Additionally, Senkotiros is primarily a close range style.

With regards to the largo mano issue being discussed by Brock and Tim, yes, Senkotiros does train Largo Mano, along with Medio and Corto. In fact, when GM Pallen first taught me my first lesson in encircling an opponent, he taught me Largo as the initial training step. If we did not address largo mano, our Senkotiros system would not be as complete, hahaha!

Please note however, that our system focuses a lot on close range self-defense. The theory is that in a self-defense situation, say in an urban setting, one has the potential to diffuse the situation if two people are standing relatively far away (modified example of largo mano). At the medio range, one still has a choice to walk away or fight. However, at close range (corto), the threat level is much higher, thus our emphasis on close range training.

Tim, I hope I have provided some insight to your issue that you and Brock were talking about. A good eskrimador can engage an opponent at any range, especially largo. The Bahala Na guys in Stockton are a good example of that.

Going back to "Senkotiros" itself and "Cinco Teros," our system teaches students to realize the stick or knife as a training tool to develop good unarmed self-defense and proficient hands.

Again, I hope I've helped to illuminate some questions. Take care guys.