Free-Form and non-patterned

[Brock]

Something that distiguishes Senkotiros from some other arts is that its responses to attack are free of form or pattern. A Senkotiros practitioner does not respond to an attack with a perscribed counter, but is spontaneous and responds using any combination of techniques that comes to mind and be ready to adapt and counter if they are countered.

Okay, I don't really have a stopping point and would probably ramble on and on, so I'll cut it off at a kinda' incomplete thought and hopefully get to respond to some comments/questions.

[arnisador]

Sounds good, but: How do you train for that kind of spontaneity without patterns to practice?

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

That sounds great Brock and very similar to what we practice in BZ - "Intuitive Drills".

I know it's the same in other martial arts too (i.e Wing Chun) whereas the body is taught to feel the way to move. In answer to your question (from BZ point of view) there is a rough framwork that encompasses the drill. Either one guy starts with the bait / attack and the other guy begins to move to serrada and abierta positions. This is what we call out "Basic" but what you want to do from there (the "Fruits of combat") is entirely up to you whether you are baited or baiting. If you don't feel like "Playing the game" you can have at him as soon as he baits and vice-versa.

For me I really appreciate this kind of training as I am a terrible student. If I get something not quite right I tend to overly punish myself and freeze up. Ofcourse, what you should do is finish the fight and worry about it later!

Going back to my white Gi wearing days if you hit the instructor it was because you "Threw the wrong punch" and I've actually heard of this recently in FMA where the attack wasn't scripted and the instructor got hit.

For me the two salient points (in danger of rambling too ;)) are:

1) Things won't go according to plan on either side
2) The "log-jam" effect

As has been documented before people who learn prescribed "Techniques" have difficulty applying them when faced with reality and get KTFO!

An interesting topic Brock.

[arnisador]

Ah, OK! I think we have a similar training device as a more advanced drill but we have mostly patterned drills at the lower level. This sounds more like a Balintawak-style training method?

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Maybe as Master Yuli was previously a Balitawak student back in the day.

He says a lot that he is "Conter-clockwise" in his ideas and methodologies (sp?!) in that he used to teach drills / sticks to start with but now things are a bit more free when you start. TBH he hates a lot of the rigidity in the martial arts and is always encouraging us to go with the flow.

Brock - quick question trying to un-hijack the thread. Can you tell us a bit more about GM Pallen's influences in senkotiros>? What can a student expect to pick up on the first day (stick, knife, etc) and how does the art evolve (primarily stick / blade? solo / 2 people drills, etc, etc)? Thanks in advance!

[Brock]

There are drills, but they are used to develop sensitivity to respond to the attack. You script your own response from the concepts you've learned through the drills rather than the drill being a response to a specific attack. The more drills you learn the more they fit together to the point where you realize that they're all the same or related. Look at it as you're given a map and the tools to go down the streets and the response to the attack is like being given a location on the map to go to. It doesn't really matter how you get to the location as long as you get to the there, and no two people may have the same method of getting to the location.

Simon- That's a good subject. I'll start a new Thread on it.

[daryl510]

drills, drills. drill, what would martial arts be without drills. Senkotiros has drills as a beginner, intermediate... and even as a lakan we use drills. but our highest form of training is the non-pattern counter for counter sensitivity.
properly executing a efficient counter attack. the key is to react! dont freeze!

Grandmaster Pallen gives his students the most simple drill to start with which in time leads the drill/training into complicated (but effortless with time/practice) sequence. after that has been broken down we take what we learned and apply them randomly.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sounds very much like our approach in IRT. Counter technique with counter the counter followed by free flow and the ability to break in and break out but most importantly never stop but continue to go and with the flow. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[arnisador]

Sounds like what we aim for in solo baston and abecedario exercises in Modern Arnis. Within a rough framework you work the technique that feels right to you at the moment!

[Brock]

Brock - quick question trying to un-hijack the thread. Can you tell us a bit more about GM Pallen's influences in senkotiros>? What can a student expect to pick up on the first day (stick, knife, etc) and how does the art evolve (primarily stick / blade? solo / 2 people drills, etc, etc)? Thanks in advance!

GM Pallen helped me out with some of the answers to your questions.



Question on influence in Senkotiros? Answer:The most influencial was GM Pallen's personal life experiences and the collective knowledge of Filipino martial art styles that was developed within the Senkotiros system.

Question on What can a student pick up the first day? Answer: It is dependent on past FMA or other martial arts experience and attitude will determine the level of knowledge/s one can absorb on the first day.

How does the art evolves stick or bladed? Answer: It is a question of who is first egg or the chicken? but, primitive people used pointed bamboo, stick and sharpen rock/bladed rock? during the early age.

Drills solo/ 2 ? Answer Drills are developed to help student meets their mind and body = flow or sensitivity. Mind, body and spirit = atitude/humbleness. The option to develop drills for one, two, more people or which way is depends on the level knowledge/skill of the teacher possesed, it does not matter which way. skillful teacher can create drill as many as he/she wants, it is a great communication tool/method of teaching.

As far as what weapon the student will pick up on the first day it would be stick. The weapons in the art I've seen empty-hand, stick both single and double, knife, sword, and tapado. I'm not sure if that's the complete list because the more he gets to know you the more of his system he trusts you with, and it seems he's always pulling a new set of skills to teach to you.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

Thanks Brock for asking those questions!

Its really refreshing to see people posting on this thread about flowing and breaking in and out of beats. It also sounds like GM Pallen tailors his art to individual students and keeps it fresh. Sounds a great system!

[5tirosCamarin]

Sensitivity! GM Pallen will play at gumon with his demonstration partner (Uke, no. Guro Brock and I joke that in Senkotiros we have a "dead guy"), and be so at ease that he's not even looking at him. In fact, he regularly speaks to the rest of the class while freestyle counter-for-counter sparring. Meanwhile it's all his partner can do not to get hit with a witik or 20 :)

He just knows--his body knows--where your next move will be based on what you've just done, and he's already planning the next 15 moves by the time you've reacted to one of his counters.

[5tirosCamarin]

Also, I think there's a difference between "Pattern" and "Drill."

A pattern sounds to me more like a kata, which, in Senkotiros isn't the main focus. We do have the hulods or sayaws, which resemble katas. However, the main focus is freestyle and sensitivity, the development of which is achieved through simple drills. For example, we learn the 5 angles and Lima Lima, then GM Pallen's Amara, and a 10-count twirling drill, and then throw them all in the blender to develop freestyle twirling.

[Maharlika510]

As Brock and Daryl have stated, we do have drills, and the purpose of them is of course to teach the student good fundamentals.

At the advanced levels, sensitivity, flow, and the ability to "predict" or at least read your opponent comes into play. When we play gumon (our sensitivity exercise) observers may find it similar to other sensitivity exercises like Modern Arnis' tapi-tapi or even Doce Pares' simultaneous offense/defense exercise (the name I can't remember). However, the strikes, thrusts, holds, blocks, locks, disarms, and takedowns all happen in random order and depending on who you are playing with, the experience will vary in difficulty, skill, and intensity. Also at the advanced level, there is no assigned driver and responder; both players are attacking and defending in response to the random action.

[daryl510]

oh yes dont forget about the importance of footwork. we also have drills for that as well. Senkotiros is not based solely on linear footwork but we utilize triangular entry/exit and circular/strafing. as we stated we use footwork depending on our response to an attack. it is our footwork that also determines what physical advantage we have against the opponent. our footwork is free-formed.

[Dawn]

drills, drills.. our highest form of training is the non-pattern counter for counter sensitivity.

Grandmaster Pallen gives his students the most simple drill to start with which in time leads the drill/training into complicated (but effortless with time/practice) sequence.

About how long would it take for a new student to get to the non-patterned sensitivity "drills"? and if the responses and reactions in the drills are free from a set pattern how do you do forms training or address the "art" side of the martial art?

[Brock]

About how long would it take for a new student to get to the non-patterned sensitivity "drills"?
Mostly it depends on the student. Previous training may help or in some cases hurt the development.

[5tirosCamarin]

In my case, Guro Brock felt like I was ready to become an instructor before I myself felt like I even knew enough to teach. That's because it came so naturally to me that I didn't even realize how much I knew. I do have previous training in traditional Kenpo, however, so learning Senkotiros at first was a whole new world.