Roberto Presas and Hinigaran Arnis de Mano.

[arnisador]

I know that Roberto Presas (http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Roberto_Presas) has his own system now, Hinigaran Arnis de Mano, and is also a Modern Arnis practitioner. Does anyone have any familiarity with Hinigaran Arnis de Mano? Is it similar to Modern Arnis?

[Datu Dieter]

Hello Arnisador,

I trained with Roberto Presas long time ago. 1983. At that time he was 8th Dan Modern Arnis.

During that time he was very goods in classical Arnis and disarmings. But his speciality was trirling a stick in one hand and a nunchaku in the other. Fascinating.

Today he holds 10th Dan Modern Arnis and is, as far as I know, not very actively involved in teaching. He has a little shop in Hinigaran and does not really like to leave Negros.

Regarding Hinigaran Arnis de Mano I cannot help you. But I can try to inquire in the Philippines.


Regards


Dieter

[arnisador]

I ask because someone recently added that art to the link I gave above, and claimed that Roberto Presas was actively teaching it in the Phil. and preparing a DVD series for it. I hadn't heard anything about it before! I'm just curious how it compares to the arts of his brothers.

By a shop, do you mean that he is a merchant, or is this a small martial arts school?

[Datu Dieter]

As far as I know he sells rice and other food.
I have an inquiery going on and I will write as soon as I kow more.

Regards


Dieter

[Datu Dieter]

Hello Arnisador,

I just received answer from the Philippines, from Grandmaster Rene Tongson who is also a cousin of the Presas brothers.
Here is what he wrote:

"Hinigaran Arnis de Mano - I do not have any idea. GM Roberto did not mention about it to me. He just reiterated that he is Modern Arnis - IMAFP. I was in Hinigaran last week for our visit to Prof's grave on July 22-24. "

So it seems, that if he does Hinigaran Arnis de Mano, he keeps it very secret :).
As far as I know he is not associated with Ernestos Kombatan.

I don't know if it helps but this is the information I could get for you.


Regards


Dieter

[arnisador]

Thanks, that does help! It seems that Mr. Presas is still a Modern Arnis player first and foremost.

Here's what prompted the question. His entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Presas) on Wikipedia was recently created (23 Jan. 2006). It said: "Grandmaster Roberto Presas is the founder of the Hinigaran Arnis de Mano system of Filipino Martial Arts" and "Grandmaster Roberto is currently working closely with his american representative developing a series of training tapes and DVDs" and listed his American representative's site as Kurtis Goodwin's site (http://www.kurtisgoodwin.com/grand_master_roberto_presas.htm). There it says:




Grand Master Roberto Presas, the late Grand Master Remy Presas' brother is the highest-ranking Modern Arnis Master in the world promoted directly by Grand Master Remy Presas himself.

Grand Master Presas is currently working closely with Guro Kurtis Goodwin developing a series of training tapes. For more information on Arnis De Mano.


On another page (http://www.kurtisgoodwin.com/hinigaran_arnis_de_mano.htm) there it says:


Hinigaran Arnis De Mano is the style of Grand Master Roberto Presas.

On another page (http://www.kurtisgoodwin.com/kurtis_goodwin.htm) it states that Mr. Goodwin is "[c]urrently ranked 4th Dan Black Belt by Grand Master Roberto Presas the style of Hinigaran Arnis De Mano." So...I am still somewhat confused! Especially since the Wikipedia entry is less than a month old, it appears that Mr. Goodwin is promoting this system, but that Mr. Presas is not currently promoting it, at least not by that name. Possibly Hinigaran Arnis de Mano is meant to simply mean something like the Presas family of Hinigaran's style of arnis? It's just another way of saying Modern Arnis? I'm not sure.

[Datu Dieter]

Hello Arnisador,

thank you for this information.
I have posted all the information of these websites to the Philippines asking to get a comment about the content, if possible directly from Roberto Presas.

Maybe everything is true and correct, maybe the name of Roberto Presas is being used unauthorized.
I don't know so I will not speculate but I will do the best to find out directly from the source.

Then we will know for sure.

Correct is, that he holds 10th Dan Modern Arnis and I think he got it from GM Remy directly. But I am not 100 % sure about this. He is connected with IMAFP and he is being elected (I think by IMAFP) as the heir of Remy Presas Modern Arnis in the Philippines. Still, he prefers to be in Negros and not in the spotlight.

I hope I can soon write an authentic comment to the above entries.


Regards


Dieter

[arnisador]

The Wikipedia page has undergone a significant update:
Roberto Presas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Presas)

It states that he is currently teaching Hinigaran Arnis de Mano to LEOs and the public.


1967 - Began studying Arnis.
[...]
1973 - Promoted to 8th Dan Arnis.

[arnisador]

Yesterday a page was created for the style itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinigaran_Arnis_de_Mano



An important note on the term Modern Arnis:

In a recent interview, Roberto Presas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Presas) recently shared that the term Modern Arnis denotes the Presas family style and was later adopted by Remy Presas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remy_Presas) (Roberto’s oldest brother) as the name of his system. It was also used by (brother) Ernesto Presas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Presas) to describe his style of Filipino martial arts; since 1999 Ernesto Presas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Presas) has called his system Kombatan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kombatan) and Roberto Presas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Presas) calls his Hinigaran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinigaran) Arnis de Mano.

[Datu Dieter]

Hi Arnisador,

sorry for the late reply, but I had to wait till I had answer from the Philippines.

- GM Roberto Presas mentioned about his plan to make a DVD, in courtesy of his U.S. friend.

- His American representative is not known in the Martial Arts community in the Philippines. He came to Hinigaran to study under GM Roberto though.

- GM Roberto has a small store (General Merchandise) which makes him busy.

- Hinigiran Arnis is just the distinct name of GM Roberto's group. Its still Modern Arnis. Hinigiran Arnis is not a style. GM Roberto wanted to associate it because Modern Arnis was born in Hinigiran. GM Roberto Presas is still the recognized highest ranking man in IMAFP, then GM Cristino Vasquez, then GM Rene Tongson.


I hope this helps.

Regards

Dieter

[arnisador]

Thanks, yes! That does clarify things. It's more of a name of a school/organization than a separate style, then.

[Mono]

Thanks, yes! That does clarify things. It's more of a name of a school/organization than a separate style, then.

Wich raises the Question of "When does a Style become a Style?"
What/When do you call it a Style?
When/What is a System?

Should one Call it a "Subsystem"?

I find it very hard to keep Track of all these Names and Labels - and after all, its all just FMA, some have been influenced more from Modern Arnis, some from Doce Pares and some from Pekiti Tirsia etc. etc.
Its allways just a matter of individual prefferences and experiences - and no one can reinvent the wheel anyways ;)

Mono

[arnisador]

Wich raises the Question of "When does a Style become a Style?"
What/When do you call it a Style?
When/What is a System?

Should one Call it a "Subsystem"?

This is a good question, and more so in the FMA, I think, than in some more highly stylized arts. For reasons you indicate below, it's more similar than different. I've also heard people suggest that there's only one (Japanese) Jujutsu with many expressions thereof, though I'm not sure that I quite agree.

There are already variants of Modern Arnis, which is a fairly new art. Which are their own, individual style? It's something of a political question in the Modern Arnis community.

This would be a good topic for a new thread in the General section--are all FMA arts just substyles of one general proto-Eskrima? (I would say No.) When do two such arts deserve to be called separate 'languages' rather than merely 'dialects'?


I find it very hard to keep Track of all these Names and Labels - and after all, its all just FMA, some have been influenced more from Modern Arnis, some from Doce Pares and some from Pekiti Tirsia etc. etc.
Its allways just a matter of individual prefferences and experiences - and no one can reinvent the wheel anyways

So many other arts ultimately come from Doce Pares (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=161), including its own variants like Eskrido. But not all, certainly.

Of course, I am thinking mostly of stick/blade arts in this post, not Yaw Yan or Kuntao or the like.

[Datu Dieter]

Hi Arnisadore,

here some more ingformations about Hinigaran Arnis from GM Rene Tongson from the Philippines:

HINIGARAN Arnis main style is Modern Arnis and Classical espada y daga of Leon Presas (Grand father of Professor Remy).
I asked GM Roberto why Hinigaran Arnis?
He replied with a serious tone:
"I find it ackward when some people associate Modern Arnis to other people's name and places. It seems they have forgotten that Modern Arnis was born in Hinigaran. And in the same venue, Manong Remy came home and laid rest, in his wish, I decided to keep the distinct name : HINIGARAN ARNIS, says Roberto.

Regards

Dieter

[eskrimador]

The Hinigaran Arnis De Mano is the group of GM Berting in his birthtown. As the nature of Modern Arnis here in the RP, tends to become complex and numerous in subsystem. This is inherent to the nature of Philippine Martial Arts, the systems or styles are continuously developing and diversing because of the uniqueness of each persons propagating the art. Especially in Modern Arnis, one must not to be purist. As the word modern arnis, for Filipinos means to modernize and go with the changes of time. This is also the problem of some guys in IMAFP who are trying to make rigid and dogma on the system teach by Prof. Remy. For most of MA practitioners, the drills and techniques are only secondary to the concept of being a modernized arnis. That is why too mcuh subsystem developing until now. There are the Kombatan (Ernesto Presas), Sports Arnis (Soteco & Anajao), Dagooc subsystem, Dela Cruz subsystem, Cinco Tiros/Modern Arnis of Vic Sanchez, Dominguez subsystem, Robas 8 Tiros, Dulay, Nicolas,etc. All these what ever they call it still a subsystem of Modern Arnis. And now the Modern Arnis in RP is incorporating the art of Tapado. This is MODERN ARNIS.

[kruzada]

This is also the problem of some guys in IMAFP who are trying to make rigid and dogma on the system teach by Prof. Remy.

Actually the IMAFP's curriculum is very progressive and they have researched many styles/systems outside GM Remy's original curriculum. They have not attempted to enforce any rigidity or dogma regarding the curriculum of any of their affiliates such as MA80, CSSDSC, DAV, or my group.

BTW Senior Master Samuel Dulay still wishes to correspond with you regarding your previous post. If you can give me your email address I will forward it to him. My email address is kruzada@email.com .

Rich Acosta
Kuntaw Kali Kruzada

[arnisador]

Actually the IMAFP's curriculum is very progressive and they have researched many styles/systems outside GM Remy's original curriculum.

I wonder how their curriculum differs from ours!

[Brock]

Its allways just a matter of individual prefferences and experiences - and no one can reinvent the wheel anyways ;)

Mono

True, but you can throw a new set of rims on them.

[arnisador]

There is an article on Roberto Presas by Kurtis Goodwin in the current (Jan. 2008) issue of Inside Kung Fu. I learned some things I didn't know, but it definitely shows that there is no longer any difference between articles and advertising in these magazines.