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KaliGman
07-14-2008, 09:03 PM
Training with Folding Knives

The Albo Kali Silat training syllabus includes a lot of knife work with various blade types. Large knife, fixed blade small knives, karambits and others are used. However, the primary training knife used is a folding trainer. All students in Albo Kali Silat are required to purchase a high quality folding training knife. In general, the most popular model used by students is the Spyderco Endura trainer, with the Spyderco Delica in second place. The Endura, when opened, is 8 7/8 inches long, with the blade being 3 15/16 inches long. This is toward the larger end of the spectrum for pocket knives, but is small when compared to most fixed blade “fighting knives.” The Delica is smaller yet, with an overall length, open, of 7 inches, and a blade length of 3 inches. There are several reasons for the use of the folding trainers, but the primary reason is that most students of Albo Kali Silat who routinely carry a knife most often carry a modern, locking blade, folding knife. I think everyone realizes that a high quality fixed blade knife is inherently stronger than a high quality folding knife, and that, depending somewhat on how the folder or fixed blade is carried, the fixed blade normally has an advantage in speed of deployment. It is a fact of modern urban and suburban life in the United States (and a few other nations to which I have traveled) that you are far more likely to find a BlackBerry or IPod clipped on a person’s belt than you are to discover a fixed blade knife. Granted, there are small fixed blades designed to be worn on a chain around the neck or otherwise concealed, there are methods of concealing medium-sized fixed blades inside a pocket or other location and deploying them quickly with a “tactical tether” system, and there are ways to conceal medium-to-large-sized fixed blades in inside the waistband sheath systems, etc. In general, though, it is easier, more convenient, and seen as less “threatening” in many urban environments to carry a folding knife than a fixed blade. Of course, if I knew that I absolutely was going to have to use a knife to defend myself, I would carry a very large fixed blade. This is similar to the fact that if I knew that I was going to have to use a firearm to defend myself, I would be carrying an automatic rifle and a lot of ammunition. Most often, though, when I leave the house in the morning, I carry a handgun, spare ammunition, and a couple of good folding knives (and a few bits of other gear—sometimes including a fixed blade karambit), as I can carry this gear all day in concealment and relative comfort. The knife or firearm that you actually will carry is going to see a lot more use and be a lot more comforting if things go badly and you are attacked, than the sword or barely man-portable cannon that you left at home because they were so heavy, hard to carry, and conceal.

In regard to carrying folding knives for self-defense, I have a few observations. I have found that many of those whom I have encountered who had knife training, be it FMA or other systems, practice a lot with training knives, do quite a bit of sparring, and become quite proficient in movement with a blade. However, most train with a fixed blade trainer, but more often carry a folding knife “on the street.” Most do not practice the draw and deployment of a folder. They most especially do not practice drawing a folding knife under duress (such as in the midst of sparring), opening that knife, and then using it, all while being attacked, which is actually a highly likely attack scenario “on the street.” Few people say, “Hey, pull your knife, because I am going to kill you.” Despite the movies, “knife duels” are much more rare than knife “surprise attacks.” In my opinion, training with a fixed blade and then primarily carrying a folding knife is akin to training with a revolver and then carrying a custom 1911 .45 ACP semiautomatic pistol. The operating systems for the tools are quite a bit different. I have put many people with pretty decent knife skills through drills where I gave them a folding trainer, had them clip the knife in a pocket or inside the waistband of their trousers, and then had them spar with someone who had a training knife already in his hand. Very, very few who had not practiced a lot with folding knives were able to draw the knife from the pocket or waistband, deploy the blade, and use the knife in the conflict.

What is really interesting is that I have found a fairly large population of “hardware guys” or “knife aficionados” who practice drawing their knives all the time. Many of these people constantly practice their “quick draw” techniques and can access and deploy a folding knife very quickly indeed. Most of these people, though, are very good at accessing the blade and very poor at using it once it is open. Many of these people focus so much on the latest “tacticool” knife and how fast it can be accessed and opened that they do not practice FMA or any other form of combatives. The belief seems to be that the mere possession of the tool, and deploying it speedily, is enough.

I will submit that, just as there is some utility in being able to accurately fire a handgun without being practiced at drawing the handgun quickly, there is utility in being able to wield a blade effectively but not be highly skilled in drawing and opening a folding knife. In fact, there is much more utility in regard to carrying a folding knife but not practicing its deployment, in my opinion, as a person well trained in knife combatives has the footwork and empty hand techniques that can sometimes allow for an empty hand solution to an edged weapon attack or the gaining of distance that allows a weapon to be deployed by the one being attacked. Being able to rapidly draw a gun or knife without knowing how to use it, however, has almost no utility. You can’t miss fast enough to win a gunfight; with a knife, if your lightning quick knife draw doesn’t impress the bad guy and you don’t have knife skills, you may be better off throwing the knife at the attacker as a distraction and trying to break the world record at the 100 meter dash.

Now there are knife aficionados who are FMA practitioners (I am one), there are FMAers who practice in carrying, deploying, and using folding knives, and there are people who are dedicated fixed blade users who habitually carry such knives. Many rely primarily on a folding knife, though. My experience has shown that, if your students routinely carry a folding knife for defensive purposes, they need to practice the use of such knives, and that a good way to do that is to use folding training knives in class and in sparring sessions where pressure is put on the student while he or she tries to draw and use the knife. There are five ways of dealing with an attacker who is already armed with a knife in hand while you are armed with a folding knife which is still in a pocket, clipped inside a waistband, in a belt pouch, or other method of carry:

1. Deal with the situation empty handed, ignoring the fact that you have a knife.
2. Disengage and gain distance while deploying the knife.
3. While dealing with the situation empty handed, access the knife, and use the knife, closed, as an impact tool until such time as you get a chance to deploy the blade.
4. While dealing with the situation empty handed, access the knife, deploying the blade at once (during the process of accessing so the draw and opening are one move).
5. Do not deal with the attack successfully and/or die.

I have my students practice all of the techniques listed, except for number 5, as situations differ and one or more of these strategies may be more appropriate to the particular attack that is faced . What most people seem to envision happening in their “mental movie” of what they would do in this situation is number 4. Number 4 is the least likely outcome when hard sparring/pressure is being put on a student. It can and has happened, but usually only works for those who are very good at sparring, who spar with folding trainers frequently, who practice drawing and opening folders under stress, and who are pretty coolheaded under pressure.

Please do not see the above as a dig at anyone’s style or training. These are my observations after years of working with law enforcement officers and martial artists, primarily within the United States. Your situation and experience may be vastly different than mine. As they say—your mileage may vary. Adding a folding training knife or two to your training gear may help with your training. I know that folding trainers are expensive compared to many other training knives. However, an open folding trainer, like a Spyderco, can be used as a “fixed blade” trainer, while a cheaper fixed blade trainer cannot teach how to open a folder under stress. In addition, Spyderco (and Emerson Knives, which also makes excellent folding trainers) have lifetime warranties and will replace or repair the knives for free if you break them under hard sparring “normal use” (i.e. if you don’t run the things over with a Chevy Suburban or otherwise abuse them). Lastly, you can usually get these trainers (and the live blade knives) for a substantial discount, and may be able to set up dealer accounts with the companies for even more of a discount, depending on your school and situation.

gagimilo
07-15-2008, 12:40 PM
Very good post sir, addressing both sides of the problem, and most importantly, trying to offer advice on resolving it. For some reason, even though people do address this issue (deployment) occasionally, it still seems to be rather disregarded in daily training.

Brock
07-16-2008, 12:00 AM
I have an Emerson trainer myself. I carry various liner lock style folders, (not all at the same time... well not normally anyway...) and I agree that you need to practice the deploy phase as well.

KaliGman
07-16-2008, 06:32 PM
I have an Emerson trainer myself. I carry various liner lock style folders, (not all at the same time... well not normally anyway...) and I agree that you need to practice the deploy phase as well.

Emerson makes some very good knives and trainers. I have several Emersons. To date, the Emerson folding karambit trainer seems to me to be the folding karambit trainer--the best on the market.

Brock
07-16-2008, 11:09 PM
Their folding kerambit live blade seems to be the folding kerambit as well. I haven't been able to find one that matces yet. Spyderco had one for a bit, but I think they discontinued it.

KaliGman
07-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Their folding kerambit live blade seems to be the folding kerambit as well. I haven't been able to find one that matces yet. Spyderco had one for a bit, but I think they discontinued it.

The Emerson folding karambit (live blade) and the Emerson Fixed Blade Karambit (live blade) are both very nice. Spyderco did discontinue their folding karambit (a collaboration with Warren Thomas, a custom knifemaker) awhile back. I have some Spydercos and some Emersons. I think the Emerson is the best folding karambit in production (as in, not a custom knife). The "Master" model made by 511 (it used to be made by Blade Tech) is pretty nice--I have handled them at shows, etc. This is also a production karambit (I still prefer the Emerson). James Coogler, Warren Thomas, and several others make custom folders, but they can be pricey. Coogler is making a fixed blade to my specification now, and it should be interesting once it is completed.

I have to say that Emerson and Spyderco make good knives and have excellent customer service. I really like their products and their customer friendly attitude.

Ron B
07-20-2008, 04:25 PM
good post.I also use the spyderco endura trainers.one drill we do is to deploy under pressure.both people wear fencing masks and one tries to deploy a folding knife trainer and the other tries to stop him.I also have grinded down the edges of folding knives and made trainers out of them.I have made trainers out of 2 smith and wesson folding knives and the cold steel ak-47 knife.as I mentioned before I would use fencing masks while training these drills with a training knife.another thing we also work on is deployment drills for a fixed blade knife that is in a sheath.

Brock
07-30-2008, 10:02 PM
Datu Hartman was using an Emerson folder trainer at the Meet & Greet. It's the first time I got to see the Wave feature in person. (My Emersons are all pre-Wave) It was a lot more smooth than I thought it would be.

arnisador
07-30-2008, 10:04 PM
He introduced me to the wave feature with that same blade (and its trainer)--I had never seen it before!

Brock
07-30-2008, 10:17 PM
He introduced me to the wave feature with that same blade (and its trainer)--I had never seen it before!

I had seen it through the video on the Emerson website, but never in person. Hope Datu Hartman knows his canes as well as his knives. I bought a couple of the Century rattan canes on his recomendation.

KaliGman
07-30-2008, 11:56 PM
Everyone calls it the "Wave" but, due to the fact that the Leatherman company owns that particular trademark for some of their multitools, its "real name" is the Emerson Opener. By whatever name you call it, this is an interesting method of opening a folder. Under stress, it does not always work, but, then again--few, if any, techniques work one hundred percent of the time in "real life" conditions. With sufficient training, though, it gives you another, very quick, deployment option, plus, the nub of the "wave" can be used for striking and pressing when the knife is used closed as an impact or compliance tool. The "wave nub carotid choke" can be nasty indeed.

Spyderco licensed the feature from Ernest Emerson and has waves on some of their knives (Endura variant, Delica variant, removable wave on the P'kal, etc.).

I have several "waved" knives--including a couple of Emerson Combat Karambits. In general, my personal preference (and it is just a preference) is to have most of my Emerson folders in "wave" variants and most of my Spydercos "non-waved."

Shaun
07-31-2008, 03:22 PM
Thanks for the great info.
It is great to get advice based on sound practical experience.