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wes tasker
06-30-2008, 04:32 PM
In my never ending quest to keep up with Mr. Jack Latorre - I thought I'd post this article I wrote for one of the PTI newsletters that I feel dovetails nicely with Mr. Latorre's "Why Espada Y Daga" article......



Pekiti Tirsia Kali – System Large or Small?


“When the Ten Thousand things are viewed in their Oneness, we
return to the Origin and remain where we have always been.”
- Jianzhi Sengcan


When I first started researching Pekiti Tirsia there was one thing that stuck out as both intriguing and worrisome: the breadth of the PTI curriculum. It was worrisome because I had seen other arts make attempts at being all-inclusive and only end up with a patchwork of disparate and unrelated pieces. It was intriguing because if this was indeed a cohesive art held together by a contiguous set of principles and basics, then I had found what I was looking for. Obviously, the later was born out as truth.

The PTI curriculum can be a rather daunting thing to behold when looked at in its entirety. I believe, though, that it is not as large and looming as it first seems. It is one thing to memorize the blocks of material, but it is another thing altogether too actually learn them. A very good friend of mine is fond of saying “Information becomes knowledge once it’s used.” This is the crux of what should be done with the curriculum of Pekiti Tirsia. When one actually “learns” and seeks “knowledge” of the material, it’s not as large as it once seemed. One actually runs into more commonality and overlap then anything else. Contrarywise, if one just wants to “memorize” and seeks only “information”, then the curriculum will always be large, unrelated, and ultimately unusable.

Figure I represents a progression through the PTI curriculum from the vantage point of actually learning and gaining knowledge from the material. One starts with footwork and the basics of all the weapons categories. The second stage is learning actual techniques, forms, and drills that show a myriad of ways these basics can be utilized. The longest horizontal line represents the end of the formal curriculum. Then one should start examining all the techniques, forms, and drills for the principles and concepts that they are trying to teach. It is in this stage that a lot of overlap is discovered. It is also at this stage that the system starts to get “smaller” in a way. One soon discovers that instead of having 4 different “techniques” what one has is one principle that is manifested with slight differences due to the situation (i.e. – the opponent’s reaction, multiple opponents, weapon type, etc.). Then, after exploring the principles and concepts of the techniques, forms, and drills then drilling them in sparring and other like drills, one is left with the footwork and basics that one started with. The only difference is that, with all the experience of the middle two stages, one can now apply those basics to a wide range of situations and weapon types. That is why one learns by ascending the diagram and then applies by descending. One’s ability to apply the principles through basics occurs on the top part of the diamond.

Figure II represents what happens when the techniques, drills, and forms are just memorized and not examined, drilled, sparred, etc. If a student stops at the ‘end’ of the PTI curriculum and doesn’t examine the entirety for principles and concepts, then they are limited in application. Without the experience of the principles, the only things they can apply are the techniques, drills, and forms themselves. This is problematic for two major reasons. The first is that the reality of sparring and/or combative drilling rarely matches the techniques, forms, and drills exactly, if at all. Secondly, Hick’s law takes effect if one is only armed with a large number of techniques. Hick’s law states that when the number of options increases, so does reaction time. So even if one were to find a situation that fits a technique or form in the middle of sparring, the reactionary gap would be far too large to even begin to act. Hick’s law is also the exact reason one should start paring down all the standard techniques and forms to base principles and concepts.
Some styles and/or instructors try to avoid the problems with techniques and forms by simply teaching with only principles. One way is not better or worse than the other. I view them as two different routes up the same mountain; each with its advantages and pitfalls. The advantage of a principle-only pedagogy is that there are no standard techniques and forms for the student to concretize and be trapped by. Another advantage is the practitioner is trained from day one to start using principles and concepts. The disadvantage is that a student can be trapped by having a lot of principles and no way to connect them. Also, without standard forms and techniques, it is sometimes very difficult to keep track of ways of using the principles and how they interrelate. Techniques and forms, when learned and used correctly, can work as examples and references to principles and how they work and interrelate.

Again, both “technique/form” and “principle-only” based systems are perfectly good models. They each have their advantages and disadvantages. The PTI curriculum is technique based but only insomuch as the techniques are a stage that needs to be passed through then transcended and its principles included in one’s expression of Pekiti Tirsia. If not, then all one has done is accumulate a massive amount of movements that won’t be able to function in a dynamic environment. If one truly learns and transcends the techniques, then one can apply and explore all the many things they have to teach. This is why, in reality, Pekiti Tirsia is not as large a system as it may first appear. Behind its many techniques and forms lie several profound principles and concepts that cover a wide array of weapons and situations. But it takes work and analysis to get there; where the learning and memorization of a technique or form is only the beginning.

wes tasker
06-30-2008, 04:33 PM
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/westasker/CCF06302008_00000.jpg

wes tasker
06-30-2008, 04:34 PM
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/westasker/CCF06302008_00001.jpg

wes tasker
06-30-2008, 04:34 PM
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/westasker/CCF06302008_00002.jpg

equilibrium
06-30-2008, 08:27 PM
The more I study pekiti, the smaller the system seems... though I still lack alot...... It did start out seeming like a very vast system. Then after a bit.. it seemed so damn simple.

Seems like a small system and a large one at same time.

Like I tell my students sometimes when I show something <<new>>, "same, same."

The footwork shows up over and over again like a conspiracy.

The chaos seems to take shape after a time and it seems very simple.

But then again there is alot I don't know.... but there is definitely alot of parts and pieces that seemed to be combined over and over again and the same parts showing up again and again in different applications....

My words are not doing it justice.

Tuhon always says that the filipino way isnt the the same as the american way.

The american son says, "what is that?"

the father says "that is a light bulb"

and due to the wonders of word association the son walks away, thinking that since he can label it, he knows all he needs to know about it.

The filipino way of learning is different.

"Dad, what is that?"

"I dont know what do you think it is? Why don't you investigate it and report back to me"

So the americans simply label something and think they know all about it, whereas in the filipino way of learning you (the thought provoking process) you need to explore, investigate and figure out what soemthing is all about instead of just labeling it.

Maybe some of learning pekiti is based on that... think about that for awhile...

wes tasker
06-30-2008, 08:45 PM
The more I study pekiti, the smaller the system seems... though I still lack alot...... It did start out seeming like a very vast system. Then after a bit.. it seemed so damn simple.

Seems like a small system and a large one at same time.

Like I tell my students sometimes when I show something <<new>>, "same, same."

The footwork shows up over and over again like a conspiracy.

The chaos seems to take shape after a time and it seems very simple.

But then again there is alot I don't know.... but there is definitely alot of parts and pieces that seemed to be combined over and over again and the same parts showing up again and again in different applications....

My words are not doing it justice.

Tuhon always says that the filipino way isnt the the same as the american way.

The american son says, "what is that?"

the father says "that is a light bulb"

and due to the wonders of word association the son walks away, thinking that since he can label it, he knows all he needs to know about it.

The filipino way of learning is different.

"Dad, what is that?"

"I dont know what do you think it is? Why don't you investigate it and report back to me"

So the americans simply label something and think they know all about it, whereas in the filipino way of learning you (the thought provoking process) you need to explore, investigate and figure out what soemthing is all about instead of just labeling it.

Maybe some of learning pekiti is based on that... think about that for awhile...

Thanks for the story... I've heard that many times from Tuhon Bill. I think it would be incorrect to say that because someone "labels" something they think they know it. We all have to start somewhere, and we are all bound by language - so what you call the "thought provoking process" and "labeling" still result in someone just trying to figure something out.

And as for your last sentence... Many of us in PTI have applied alot of thought, testing, experimenting, etc. to our training - so I don't need to think about that for awhile, I've been doing it since day one.

-wes tasker

puntadas
06-30-2008, 11:33 PM
yeah like a museum curator with greasy glasses, nylon slacks & a terminal skin condition...

which is it PTI or PTK

any light bulbs out there???

wes tasker
06-30-2008, 11:58 PM
yeah like a museum curator with greasy glasses, nylon slacks & a terminal skin condition...

Are you grumpy again??? Aren't you the same person who, on another thread, wrote the following regarding forums:


Again, I find these forums remarkably Myopic, my path in the Martial Arts has involved many 'training methods': Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti & much more.

Yes! people should reflect on many things... basic intelligence, statement of the obvious.

So why are you adding to the myopia? Why not create some real dialogue? If you don't agree with something I wrote - or if you have an opinion that runs counter to something, just bring it up plain and simple instead of going for the quick gag line and then later complain about the forums myopic nature?


which is it PTI or PTK

Just to humor you... Both, seeing as how one (PTI) is an organization and the other (PTK) is the style perpetuated by the organization.


any light bulbs out there???

Plenty, with more and more coming to light every day.

-wes tasker

arnisador
07-04-2008, 04:38 PM
when the number of options increases, so does reaction time.

This has worried me in the past about some systems I have studied (e.g., Karate styles with lengthy syllabi). In the FMAs, though, I have found that the more I study, the less I need to know, as ideas merge and simplify. I think it's important for exactly the reason above--similar to what Kenpoka sometimes call "analysis paralysis".

Brock
07-04-2008, 05:37 PM
This has worried me in the past about some systems I have studied (e.g., Karate styles with lengthy syllabi). In the FMAs, though, I have found that the more I study, the less I need to know, as ideas merge and simplify. I think it's important for exactly the reason above--similar to what Kenpoka sometimes call "analysis paralysis".

Ahh yes, but when you apply FMA concepts to Karate you begin to see what the techniques were originally supposed to be like. More and more I see many styles of karate have become "do" arts rather than "jutsu" and have lost alot of their combative aspects to become more of a way of self perfection. That's not to say that there aren't instructors out there still teaching the combative elements, but they're becoming a minority.

wes tasker
07-04-2008, 08:44 PM
Brock-

Have you ever come across Patrick McCarthy Sensei and his work in Karate to keep it viably combative?

-wes tasker

Brock
07-04-2008, 09:38 PM
Yep, he's one of the minority I was talking about. Dave Lowery's another. I have a collection of books and articles by both. On a personal level though I only know probably a handful of Sensei that actually understand kata as they apply to combat training. Go to a tournament and ask a forms competitor (and I've done this with guys that claim 6th-8th degree...) about Bunkai and more often than not the look on their face will remind you of a cow that just got hit between the eyes with a sledge hammer. Then when you do find someone that knows what the term means it's hit or miss if they can actually apply the moves in a realistic fashion or if it's something horribly contrived.

wes tasker
07-04-2008, 10:21 PM
I know what you mean. I have a good friend who's been practicing Goju-ryu since '68 and he's incredible with Bunkai and Oyo. He, myself, and another friend who's a black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu teach a camp together every year and it's funny to see people's faces as they realize that good martial concepts are good martial concepts regardless of whether it came from Pekiti Tirsia, Goju-ryu, or Gracie Jiu Jitsu.....

-wes tasker

lhommedieu
07-05-2008, 05:25 AM
....it's funny to see people's faces as they realize that good martial concepts are good martial concepts regardless of whether it came...

Greetings from sunny Provence!

I realize that I am preaching to the choir but Wes' statement reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite teachers: "It's not the moves - it's the movement."

Best,

Steve

Brock
07-06-2008, 03:00 PM
Yep, most people do the moves without understanding the movement I've seen people doing this with twirling in the same way. Looks pretty, but they can't connect it to actual combat.

arnisador
07-06-2008, 06:16 PM
I've seen people doing this with twirling in the same way. Looks pretty, but they can't connect it to actual combat.

Yes, I have been known to wonder whether those people were trying to use semaphore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_semaphore) to signal "Help! I don't know what I'm doing!"

Brock
07-07-2008, 12:10 AM
Nah, if they knew how to use semaphore then they'd know better than to hold the things in the middle and roll them around their wrists and fingers!