Ironwood question

[ap Oweyn]

Quick question: A friend of mine surprised me on Saturday with a set of sticks he brought back from Manila for me. (Good friend) I think they're kamagong. I know they aren't bahi. Is kamagong the same as "ebony" in the PI?

Thanks.


Stuart

[Waltyr]

I've heard of Kamagong refered to as 'ebony wood' or 'ebony hardwood' but I can't guarentee you that they are one in the same. Anyone else want to chime in on this one?

W.v.

[Buwaya]

I'd like to piont out to everyone that kamagong is endangered, and has been for quite some time. Can someone clarify for me whether it is ilegal to export?

If you already have or own kamagong, than you should enjoy it.

But if your currently going to purchase a harder baston, I recommend you look elsewhere. Its an unfortunate thing that something indigeous and beautiful to the Philippines, our native arts, could contribute, however small, to the further depletion of our already endangered natural resources.

Please take my considerations into your heart when choosing your materials. Your students, friends and training partners will follow in your wake.

[arnisador]

I did not know that kamagong was endangered. There's a news story that mentions kamagong (http://news.inq7.net/opinion/index.php?index=2&story_id=64622&col=58) here in the context of Philippines environmentalism. From here (http://www.unep-wcmc.org/species/tree_study/asia/3-52.html):


Diospyros philippinensis
synonyms: Diospyros cunalon
Diospyros cumingii
Diospyros flavicans
Philippine Ebony; Kamagong


Trade D. philippinensis from the Philippines is not legally traded in the international market, therefore no official records exist (Madulid, 1996). Illegal trade in D. philippinensis is widespread, even though there has been a ban on log exports since 1989 (Blockus et al, 1992 in CITES Proposal). In 1991, a shipment of illegally cut Diospyros sp. (Kamagong) worth US$ 90,171 was seized in a Philippines port before it was illegally exported to Malaysia (Callister, 1992 in Madulid, 1996).

Conservation Status The global threat status of D. philippinensis is unknown according to the WCMC Plants Database. The Philippines has had one of the highest deforestation rates for tropical rain forests (Collins, Sayer, and Whitmore 1991), making this species probably Endangered due to decline in habitat of more than 50 % in three generations, although more information is needed for Northern Sulawesi.

Conservation Measures Philippine ebony is protected in the Philippines (PROSEA, 1995) and felling restrictions are in force.

I have seen kamagong sticks but do not own a pair. I see many ads for them, eg.:
Kamagong Sticks (http://www.swordsofhonor.com/kaesfist.html)

[lhommedieu]

Due to its protected status a lot of what is sold as "kamagong" is really another heavy wood (tamarind, for example) that is dyed black to resemble kamagong. A good alternative is Australian ironwood that is another species of ebony and has the same properties (hardness and density); the color is different though: a deep burnt orange.

One caveat is that all hardwoods will splinter at some point and send shards flying around that can be dangerous to your eyes, etc. - and there's no telling when this will happen - so banging away with hardwood sticks on a regular basis is probably not the best practice. In addition, the reverberation is not good for your hands and wrists and hits to the hand get old rather quickly.

This is probably why rattan is used as a training tool: it gets crushed and shreds (rather than splinters) due to the long, elastic fibers between the nodes; it is fairly lightweight and won't hurt your training partners too badly, and it absorbs a lot of the reverberation that would otherwise start effecting your hands and wrists.

But it feels good to move a heavy stick around. My favorites are the bahi sticks that I use for Estacada and the ironwood sticks that I use for San Miguel Eskrima.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[ap Oweyn]

Oh I doubt that I'll be using these for actual contact. I'd like to preserve them. But I think they'll be useful for some practice, just to get used to the weight of a proper set of sticks.

As for kamagong being endangered, I didn't know that either. And I'm only guessing that they're kamagong. Nowhere does it say that on the label that came with them. Nor did the salesman describe them as kamagong. He simply said they were "ebony." So it could well be that they're simply tamarind dyed a darker colour (or whatever).

Interesting. Thanks for the information.


Stuart

[arnisador]

I saw someone on another forum (SwordForums?) complaining that what was alleged to be kamagong was indeed another wood, without the color variations one sees in actual kamagong. I would suspect that people are using the term kamagong with, er, a bit of license.

I believe that "Philippines ebony" is a legitimate term for kamagong, but shortening that to "ebony" does open things up for interpretation.

[arnisador]

I'd like to piont out to everyone that kamagong is endangered, and has been for quite some time. Can someone clarify for me whether it is ilegal to export?

Perhaps this is not entirely on-topic, but it struck me when I read it. From this story (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002812134_webslideside17.html) about today's devastating and deadly landslide in the Philippines:

Illegal logging may have contributed to disaster


"The ground has really been soaked because of the rain," Lerias said. "The trees were sliding down upright with the mud."

But officials and residents also blamed illegal logging that started in the 1970s.

"It stopped around 10 years ago," Roger Mercado, a member of Congress who represents the area, told DZBB radio. "But this is the effect of the logging in the past."

Army Capt. Edmund Abella, who joined rescue efforts with about 30 soldiers from his unit, heard similar speculation from survivors. "People are blaming small widespread chain saw logging," he said.

Pat Vendetti, a London-based campaigner with the Greenpeace environmental action group, said illegal logging may prove to have contributed to the mudslide.

"There were similar landslides at the end of 2004 and the end of 2003, both directly linked to illegal logging on land above villages, and both in the Philippines," said Vendetti.

[Rich Parsons]

Due to its protected status a lot of what is sold as "kamagong" is really another heavy wood (tamarind, for example) that is dyed black to resemble kamagong. A good alternative is Australian ironwood that is another species of ebony and has the same properties (hardness and density); the color is different though: a deep burnt orange.

One caveat is that all hardwoods will splinter at some point and send shards flying around that can be dangerous to your eyes, etc. - and there's no telling when this will happen - so banging away with hardwood sticks on a regular basis is probably not the best practice. In addition, the reverberation is not good for your hands and wrists and hits to the hand get old rather quickly.

This is probably why rattan is used as a training tool: it gets crushed and shreds (rather than splinters) due to the long, elastic fibers between the nodes; it is fairly lightweight and won't hurt your training partners too badly, and it absorbs a lot of the reverberation that would otherwise start effecting your hands and wrists.

But it feels good to move a heavy stick around. My favorites are the bahi sticks that I use for Estacada and the ironwood sticks that I use for San Miguel Eskrima.

Best,

Steve Lamade


I agree with Steve here. Rattan is the best natural training tool for safety. If you are serious and do not care of the other person is going to loose an eye because you plan on beating him in the head, then hard wood is jsut fine. Personally, I like the rattan for the texture, the hardwaoods are all smooth and usually not as large in diameter, which makes it hard for mongo's like me to hang onto them.

I know that ivory and scrimshaw (Whale) are illegal in the states (* Excluding idiginous Eskimos *) as well, but if you have a block of it you still can work it and or sell it, just not buy new "Fresh". My hopes is that anything on the market is just old stock.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have to agree with Rich and Steve. Rattan is the best natural
training tool for the FMA because of it's ability to splinter first
giving you a warning that it needs to be taped or taken out of
service. Hardwood is great for individual practice but unfortunately
when it breaks there is little or no warning and jagged parts are
flying around. Having said all of that I love doing solo training
with my Kamagong sticks.:)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Bob Hubbard]

Last I heard it was illegal to export, but my intel may be outdated.

[ap Oweyn]

I agree with Steve here. Rattan is the best natural training tool for safety. If you are serious and do not care of the other person is going to loose an eye because you plan on beating him in the head, then hard wood is jsut fine. Personally, I like the rattan for the texture, the hardwaoods are all smooth and usually not as large in diameter, which makes it hard for mongo's like me to hang onto them.

Just to be clear here, ever since I began arnis (circa 1990), I've never done partner training with anything other than rattan (or, obviously, the occassional padded stick).


Stuart