LEOs and MMA.

[arnisador]

Beat Cops (http://s.wsj.net/article/SB121149350922315557.html?mod=fpa_editors_picks)

Why the Police Are Becoming
Some of the World's Toughest Fighters (http://s.wsj.net/article/SB121149350922315557.html?mod=fpa_editors_picks)


From the beginning, cage fighting -- an aggressive combination of punching, kicking, wrestling and carnage that is illegal in 18 states -- has had a fundamental challenge: Where to find the toughest, meanest, most violent people in the world who aren't already behind bars. Increasingly, the answer is the police station.


Some of the biggest names in this sport, whose main league is the Ultimate Fighting Championship, are police officers. Sean "the Cannon" Gannon, a Boston police officer, achieved notoriety when he defeated street fighter Kimbo Slice in a bare-knuckles, backyard brawl. "Big John" McCarthy is the most well-known referee; he just retired from his day job as defensive-tactics instructor for the Los Angeles Police Department.
[...]
Part of the reason officers are becoming contenders is that they're more skilled in fighting. Police departments are training their ranks in aggressive martial arts, like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, to combat crime, boost morale and cut down on the use of weapons. In Utah, most law-enforcement agencies still teach techniques based on Aikido, a defensive Japanese martial art that doesn't address hand-to-hand combat on the ground. But last year, the West Valley City police department in Utah enlisted professional fighters to teach moves from a range of martial arts, including punches and submission holds. Since launching the new program, the department says it has cut the use of Tasers by about one-third and the use of pepper spray by half.
A different take on this article:
Sean Gannon to Re-Emerge From Obscurity? (http://www.cagepotato.com/2008/05/23/sean-gannon-to-re-emerge-from-obscurity/)


Although naming Gannon as one of “the biggest names in this sport” is laughable, the article does contain one very compelling bit of info regarding the relationship between law enforcement and MMA:

[arnisador]

MMA is everywhere it seems...now the lead story at Yahoo!'s front page:
MMA myths debunked again (http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dd-mmamyths052908&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)


When MMA returned to cable in 2001, it was portrayed as a sign of the decline of American civilization. Somehow, the republic survived.


When the Ultimate Fighting Championship’s popularity exploded in 2005, it was dismissed as a fad that would soon go away. Three years later, the company is on the hottest sustained pay-per-view business streak in its history.

Now the sport has made it to the mainstream, with this weekend’s live network television debut of EliteXC’s “Saturday Night Fights” on CBS.

[silat1]

As a cop who practices the filipino and chinese martial arts, I have this to say.. The MMA is about as worthless as tits on a boar when it comes to practicality for this occupation.. To go to the ground with a perp is to say that you let him get too close when you are questioning him.. If you let him get in with in your reactionary gap, you deserve to get your asses handed to you.. The only time that you should let anyone inside your reactionary gap is when you have back up and you are cuffing the individual.. Some precincts utilize the programs that are set up by the MMA practitioners because of the hype they see on the tube.. Not all fights or situations are one on one.. For the most part, if the perp gets inside of your reactionary gap and is moving on you, you should be on the move to get control of the situation by the most expeditious means possible.. That is why they issue batons and OC spray to fight these kinds of situations, but to go toe to toe with a perp is just asking for a smack down on your behalf..

I practice the arts that I do for the ability to go home and have supper with my family, and to let some individual who is going to be cuffed ruin that for me is to say that I screwed the pooch on how I handled the situation.. The filipino arts cover the applications of grappling with the buno and dumog, all it takes is a little exploration with in your own system to understand the choking points on the body to set the triangles that make up the major parts of the skeletal and muscular systems spinning to your benefit..

Nuff said

[Shonin]

I fear this thread has the potential to become a huged shouting match and I don't want to get involved in that. But as a trainer at a large Police Academy I also see the fascination with MMA. (The FBI for years has, unfortunately IMHO used ground work as the major component of their DT training.) While I think that MMA give a huge return return on investment when developing fitness (with a high degree of safety - recruits, like anyone else will sue when they get injured), I question the value of ground work for a LEO.

Most of the officers who lose ther weapons lose them on the ground, and while it begs the question to say they wouldn't have lost them in the first place if they were MMA trained, going to the ground with someone makes weapon retention very difficult.

Also, while the fitness potential of training in the MMA cannot be denied, once out of the academy most cops have very little time. They are simply very busy people and the majority of them find it hard to train. Pursuing FMA is generally easier than pursuing MMA, especially as an officer ages.

I also agree with Silat1's comment that for general LEO training the FMA are very appropriate. A lot of Defensive Tactics already is watered down FMA anyway.

And of course branding (the name) is always going to be an issue -- I can really see some public perception problems if an academy was to begin teaching an art whose names means "to cut up into small pieces in close". (LOL). Wouldn't THAT be something in the headlines.

[Kailat]

Also as someone who works in this profession, I'd like to add that I know for our area here, only 1 out of every 10 officers will even train extensively outside of the dept. When I was teaching DT's it was a simple game for some of the officers. They spent the 2-4 hours of lessons goofing off. It made it hard for me and the other instructors to have a serious lesson. Just got word from one of my students who just ventured into the DT's field, just told me the last two weeks he's been assiting w/ our dept and it was a joke.. I gave up on teaching Dt's about a year or 2 ago here. It was a worthless waste of time. Although I got paid, it wasn't worth the headaches as I take this training and teaching seriously and to have a bunch of clowns who think they are bad (u know) joke and kid around, I just said forget it.

But as I seen the rise of this MMA I figured maybe it will help those who are serious at least do some form of training. I'll stick to what I do however. As was stated, I believe your right.. DT's is watered down FMA But you have a four hour class once every 6 to 12 weeks to teach a bunch of know it alls some form of skills.. All the PPCT course is, pressure points, simple locks (which i've seen majority of taught wrong) and a couple take downs (which again i've seen taught wrong as well).. It makes me wonder where some of these DT's instructors come from...

I'll never forget one class I was teachng on a straight arm bar take down.. I made it so obvious that the previous instructor taught it completly wrong, I shared a simple and direct way to take even the largest of individual down w/ hardly no strength what so ever.. U see these little cops trying to push the elbow or arm of brutus to the floor and the big guy stand there, "you gonna take me down or what".. I showed my version and POOF he went down w/ ease...I shared that and then the little man was like WOW how easy is that? I figured at least I got one technique accross.. the oldschool Karate mentality has taken over the Police Force... HARD WORKS BETTEr when in fact HARD IS JUST THAT "HARD" I say work smarter not harder...LOL

[DeadguY]

I watch the UFC and other MMA orgs frequently and there are quite a few LEOs and Correctional Officers in the Sport. I don't think either LEOs or COs should use MMA as a form of self defense because it's a weaponless art, grappling for the most part isn't an effective form of self defense especially with more than one attacker.

I've heard one of the UFC LEOs (apologies I can't recall his name) say that he originally just trained MMA for health reasons. I'd trained at an MMA gym and there is a heavy emphasis on endurance, so I could totally see anyone taking classes just for the sake of losing weight or getting fit. That's why I ended up going to their gym, I needed to lose pounds for my wedding and in a few months I'd lost quite a bit of weight.

[equilibrium]

Some people talk about MMA as some sort of scientific bringing together of all the best of all the arts for all the ranges. This is crap. MMA is evolving for the purpose of sport, so it will be good for sport with the rules as they make them and therefore not a good choice for LEO.

Even one of Gracies said they werent into MMA so much anymore since it was becoming dominated not by guys who could fight really well necessarily, but by tough guys who knew how to use the rules to win.

I am a private citizen and I would also like to say that whatever is evolving for LEOs isnt necessarily best for the private citizen nor the the soldier nor for anyone else. I agree that lots of good LEO techniques are watered down FMA which makes sense since lots of times the LEO needs to control the subject and/or conform to department rules on what you can and cannot do in specific situations. So it would be a subset of techniques and some specific techiniques thrown in specificially for the LEO. I have seen some techniques in pekiti tirsia that are taught to the police that are specific to handcuffing them, etc.

[arnisador]

Ultimate Fighting Recruits Military to Its Ranks (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/sports/othersports/30fight.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)



The United States military is embracing a combat sport commonly called ultimate fighting that a decade ago was called human cockfighting and largely outlawed.

The sport, also known as mixed martial arts and involving disciplines like jiu-jitsu, boxing and wrestling, adopted safety measures that satisfied most state regulators. It is now soaring in popularity, especially among young men; on Saturday, an event will be broadcast live in prime time on network television for the first time. The armed forces, acknowledging the phenomenon and the suitable demographics, are using the sport not only as a way to build morale and aid in recruiting, but also as a training aid to enhance the skills of soldiers.


To rally the troops, military leaders have welcomed professional fighters with names like Ace and the Huntington Beach Bad Boy. The Army has conducted tournaments among soldiers. In an opinion article for Army Times last year, Maj. Kelly Crigger urged commanders to field a team of fighters on television in the Ultimate Fighting Championship, the dominant pro league.
[...]
Military officials have sought practical applications. In 2002, the Army published a new field manual section on mixed martial arts techniques. Its author, Matthew C. Larsen, the director of the Modern Army Combatives Program, considered competition a powerful motivator.
See also:
For Soldiers, a Fringe Fighting Sport Finds Mainstream Appeal (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/sports/othersports/30mma.html?ref=othersports)

[arnisador]

I just watched a documentary on HBO called The Recruiter. It's about an army recruiter who is especially good at recruiting, and follows some of his recruits through basic training. I was surprised to see nontrivial BJJ in basic training (men and women). They started from the knees and both matches they showed ended with the classic arm bar from the mount (eh, which I find an iffy technique outside of sport--rolling on your own back like that).

One recruits is selected for Special Forces training, but they don't show much of it. He does graduate though.

Interesting documentary.

[Shaun]

All really valid points.In the UK,most LEOs do not carry firearms.
Speaking from a personal perspective,when it does 'kick off',there is usually more than one perpetrator and sometimes I have to deal with the situation on my own,at least initially until my colleagues arrive - I try at all costs to avoid going to the ground.
On my beat,I often have to deal with groups of youths who are older teens,so they are not really kids,but young adults.There is a core of youths on my patch,who would not hesitate to put the boot in on an officer if he/she were on the ground.
Staying on ones feet is important when facing multiple aggressors,not least because it is easier to retain authority when standing.

[chubbybutdangerous]

:bow:
As a former Marine and current civilian, I also have an opinion on mma and any "uniformed"/tactical occupation. I work out/instruct at an mma gym. But for me, "mma" means just that, mixed martial arts. Which can be a good thing (cross training and the like). But from what I've experience at the gym I go to, (which has 'jitsu, Muy Thai, etc.) there is definitely a difference between the "mma guys" and everyone else. The best fighters/tacticians are the ones who have a good base in a traditional art (I consider both brazilian and japanese 'jitsu traditional arts. We find it somewhat amusing when we get "cage fighters" and "street fighters" who want to work out there. But even at an mma academy, people are starting to realize how "real world" fma really is, especially when they start seeing the knife work. I like to assume a few things with a potential adversary:
#1 - He has a weapon
#2 - He's got friends nearby
#3 - He's got some good skills
#4 - I'm gonna have to get as mean, vicious and dirty as I can

FMA covers me on all of this IMHO, better than "mma".
:whip:

Respectfully,
The Chubby One

[Shaun]

:bow:
As a former Marine and current civilian, I also have an opinion on mma and any "uniformed"/tactical occupation. I work out/instruct at an mma gym. But for me, "mma" means just that, mixed martial arts. Which can be a good thing (cross training and the like). But from what I've experience at the gym I go to, (which has 'jitsu, Muy Thai, etc.) there is definitely a difference between the "mma guys" and everyone else. The best fighters/tacticians are the ones who have a good base in a traditional art (I consider both brazilian and japanese 'jitsu traditional arts. We find it somewhat amusing when we get "cage fighters" and "street fighters" who want to work out there. But even at an mma academy, people are starting to realize how "real world" fma really is, especially when they start seeing the knife work. I like to assume a few things with a potential adversary:
#1 - He has a weapon
#2 - He's got friends nearby
#3 - He's got some good skills
#4 - I'm gonna have to get as mean, vicious and dirty as I can

FMA covers me on all of this IMHO, better than "mma".
:whip:

Respectfully,
The Chubby One


Yeah,my biggest concern is the blade,especially when I know some of the people I have had dealings with, have carried them in the past.
Cross training is great.I really enjoy it and have benefited from it.
I believe grappling skills are of essential (knowing how to get out of choke holds,headlocks,or being lifted off the ground bodily by a weight lifter,etc.),but not as necessary as learning how to deal with weapons IMHO.
It is a question of time and priorities.