how is the curriculum different?

[selfcritical]

Aside from (if I remember) differences in the numbering system, how does the PTI curriculum differ from the Doce Methodos?

[TuhonBill]

I remember seeing two or three written lists of the Doce Methodos in the 1970’s. One had the 12 methods divided between all the single stick techniques only (I remember two versions of this. One listed the Doce Methodos as basics and had Seguidas and up listed separately) and another included double stick and espada y daga among the listing of methods. I haven’t seen all of Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje’s newest listing, so I can’t comment on that beyond the few items I’ve seen from my students who have attended his seminars and things I’ve seen on YouTube. Some of the names have changed since I first saw the list (there was no Tri-V formula on the old list for example). In general though, there was a difference in the order that techniques were taught to Leo when he was a boy and the way he taught students in the U.S. in the 70’s and 80’s (I grew up calling him Leo, so I’ll use that most of the time here). Leo told us that when he trained under his grandfather, he was taught each weapon A through Z before moving on to the next weapon in the order of single stick, then double, then sword and dagger, then knife and finally empty hand. Aside from a few teens like myself, most of the people coming to train with Leo in the 1970’s had prior martial arts training - many had a black belt – and they wanted knife and empty hand early on. Therefore, Leo changed the order he was taught and gave us all the “A” level techniques from all the weapons, then all the “Bs” then all the “Cs” etc. Leo told me that many of the drills in 64 Attacks were tied to sets in the Doce Methodos. Break in-Break out and Segong Labo were drills for Seguidas and 5 Attacks were drills for Contradas. Around ’77 Leo put together the drills we had been practicing into a set he called 64 Attacks so we would have a “form” to test on at our tournaments. From what I can tell, GT Gaje is now teaching more in the order of Z to A (especially to military personnel) with more emphasis on solo espada and on knife. You’re getting the same techniques, just in a different order. The rank chart you see on the PTI website is pretty close to the order I learned the techniques in. (http://www.pekiti.com/ranking.php ) Since I also get students who usually have prior martial arts training (often in FMA), I try to stick to the order of training I was given as most of these people want all the weapons and have time to learn the basics of each. However, when I start teaching my son, I’ll probably use something closer to the older order of teaching; one weapon at a time, A to Z, beginning with single stick but adding some empty hand early and keeping knife for last.
Hope this helps answer your question. The best person to ask would be someone who has trained A to Z in both curriculum's (PTI’s and PTGO’s), but I don’t know of anyone who has done so.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

[GLENNLOBO]

hi Bill. if i may can i ask about the tri-v formula and the capsula methodica.what are they.. and why are they so mportant. mr gaje also alluded to several issues in previous threads and i was actually interested in how these relate in FMA.. mathematical principles, someone referred to fibonacci numbers?? and also , and i have the wording different, but the psychic levels etc. i didnt get answers that i understood both because of the english and the attitude. can you elucidate? please. regards

[selfcritical]

I had posted a little bit in one of the newer threads Leslie buck's description. Essentially it's a reorganization of the material that shows a lot of the "z" material alongside the "a" material early on in the lesson plan, and has the student integrating the various subsystems together more quickly. While I know people who know this lesson plan, the only people trained exclusively in it for us to compare are in the PI

[kaliman1978]

you are correct in you analysis. Leslie is a good friend of mine and was my first ptk teacher. Leslie does things more by feel and shows pretty much what he feels like showing at the time. During my time with him he rarely showed any real core basic stuff, but he would visit the basics every now and again. I like this method of training because to me or in my experience your mechanics turn out to be alot better than somebody that just practices gross mechanics like I have seen alot of the newer ptk folks do. I'm not knockin the new stuff, but it's just not for me. I like being given a particuar skill set to work on and figuring out how to apply it. My current teacher Ricky Rillera is very good at giving a concept and instead of drilling it he challenges you to apply it in sparring or seeing if you can insert it into a particular drill.

[PG Michael B]

Kamusta Doug....that's an excellent assesment of both Leslie and Ricky. I have trained with both as you know and I always found that they were very in tune with the flow and the feel rather than a set way or should I say a text book way of doing something. This to me shows an aliveness and a true knowledge of what works, not only for themself but how others can take it and tweak it and make it their own.

[kaliman1978]

Thanks for the compliment Mike! I think the "by feel method" is the true filipino way meaning it causes whats referred to as the thought provoking process. See if you get all of your material in a standardized way vs. by feel you kind of rely on recalling what technique or method to do in a situation versus just doing what you need to do when in a situation.

[PG Michael B]

Thanks for the compliment Mike! I think the "by feel method" is the true filipino way meaning it causes whats referred to as the thought provoking process. See if you get all of your material in a standardized way vs. by feel you kind of rely on recalling what technique or method to do in a situation versus just doing what you need to do when in a situation.

Exactly how I feel. If you base your work on technique only you will be quite limited. If you base your work on sound principals of movement technique will then become endless.

A syllabus is a must, especially for those who have never ventured down this path. It is crucial for the teacher with the help of the students to be able to take the syllabus and make it work for everyone. The main thing IMHO is to have fun, enjoy the journey and don't get hung up in the destination!

[selfcritical]

you are correct in you analysis. Leslie is a good friend of mine and was my first ptk teacher. Leslie does things more by feel and shows pretty much what he feels like showing at the time. During my time with him he rarely showed any real core basic stuff, but he would visit the basics every now and again. I like this method of training because to me or in my experience your mechanics turn out to be alot better than somebody that just practices gross mechanics like I have seen alot of the newer ptk folks do. I'm not knockin the new stuff, but it's just not for me. I like being given a particuar skill set to work on and figuring out how to apply it. My current teacher Ricky Rillera is very good at giving a concept and instead of drilling it he challenges you to apply it in sparring or seeing if you can insert it into a particular drill.

The Tri-V curriculum actually has a lot of it. You get handed a bunch of pieces, and then slowly challenged as to how to fit them together.

[kaliman1978]

true, true I agree. Its funny because I have recently been given alot of stuff out of tri-v and as luck would have it Les showed me alot of that stuff already. So its like you are saying you do get bits and pieces and in the end it all comes together anyway. Neway we are on a pti forum so lets get some input from them and hear what anybody from pti has to add to the conversation.

[bttcanada@videotron.ca]

I feel like I could jump in here.

I have been involved with PTK since 1981. I was fortunate to learn from a lot of GT Gaje's senior students as well as from him personally. This group included Tuhon McGrath. I have been continuing my connection with GT Gaje trying to learn and internalize the newer material as well.

I believe that the way to learn this method properly is to learn the method itself. It is, in my opinion, very difficult to draw the type of conclusions necessary to place the pieces in their proper position without the benefit of at least an idea where they should go. That idea is developed by practicing using the parts as they were designed to. Then the ideas of attack and defense are not random concepts but are eventually hard wired by constant, hard practice.

I don't think the order of learning most of the techniques is of the greatest importance, but there are certain ones that are easier to understand and therefore come first in someone's training, or at least should. It is all built on a foundation. Once the form is created the techniques are easier to understand and therefore apply. The more advanced ideas are just the basics accelerated to a usable speed.

It is no different than learning effective footwork. Walk first, then run.

Just an opinion.
Tuhon Philip Gelinas

[abdon]

I feel like I could jump in here.

I have been involved with PTK since 1981. I was fortunate to learn from a lot of GT Gaje's senior students as well as from him personally. This group included Tuhon McGrath. I have been continuing my connection with GT Gaje trying to learn and internalize the newer material as well.

I believe that the way to learn this method properly is to learn the method itself. It is, in my opinion, very difficult to draw the type of conclusions necessary to place the pieces in their proper position without the benefit of at least an idea where they should go. That idea is developed by practicing using the parts as they were designed to. Then the ideas of attack and defense are not random concepts but are eventually hard wired by constant, hard practice.

I don't think the order of learning most of the techniques is of the greatest importance, but there are certain ones that are easier to understand and therefore come first in someone's training, or at least should. It is all built on a foundation. Once the form is created the techniques are easier to understand and therefore apply. The more advanced ideas are just the basics accelerated to a usable speed.

It is no different than learning effective footwork. Walk first, then run.

Just an opinion.
Tuhon Philip Gelinas

I cannot agree with you more. If I understand you correctly Tuhon Gelinas, what you are suggesting is to learn the curriculum first, as it was meant to be learned and applied, prior to "jumping around" between advanced material and techniques.
The way I train, personally, has to have some structure to it. I NEED a set curriculum that I can follow, train hard and diligently with, starting from the ground up (literally with footwork for instance). Once the basic foundation is so well trained that it becomes instinctive, I would imagine that learning the more advanced material would come a lot easier.
Thanks for your input!!

Abdon

[Jack Latorre]

Greetings--

I thought it might be worth reiterating some of the ideas being offered, as well as posing some new ones.

The idea of a curriculum is to...
-lay out the parts (techniques/drills) in thier entirety...
-and to give a practitioner an idea of what to start with and how, with an end goal in mind.

Curriculum thus becomes a sort of 'roadmap' of concepts that Tuhon Gelinas alludes to. 'Having the curriculum' does not necessarily mean 'having functionality in the system' though. As has been said before in many forums, the balance of curriculum and practicum is really what a practitioner should strive for. If curriculum is the 'roadmap', then practicum is the 'getting off your duff and into the car and see if you can get anywhere'.

As with any system, basics are the key. In Pekiti-Tirsia, it is footwork. Without it, techniques are tenuous at best...with functional understanding of it, the entire system can be at your call.

From what I gathered in the PTI curriculum, once I learned the basics in single stick, double stick, knife and empty hand, I had realized all that was being trained was a certain body dynamic that was very functional for what I was trying to accomplish in my training. Once I felt more comfortable with those basics and the development of that body dynamic, it didn't matter if I 'jumped around' in the curriculum. And in my experiences, curriculum became less of a linear thing (starting from A and ending up at Z), but more of a spherical model (where starting points led me to destinations that led me back to those starting points and so on).

One of the keys for the student is to develop training to bridge the basics of curriculum and the situations for which those basics are designed for. After that, the rest of the pieces fall into place more easily.

Regards,

Jack A. Latorre

[TuhonBill]

I feel like I could jump in here.

I have been involved with PTK since 1981. I was fortunate to learn from a lot of GT Gaje's senior students as well as from him personally. This group included Tuhon McGrath. I have been continuing my connection with GT Gaje trying to learn and internalize the newer material as well.

I believe that the way to learn this method properly is to learn the method itself. It is, in my opinion, very difficult to draw the type of conclusions necessary to place the pieces in their proper position without the benefit of at least an idea where they should go. That idea is developed by practicing using the parts as they were designed to. Then the ideas of attack and defense are not random concepts but are eventually hard wired by constant, hard practice.

I don't think the order of learning most of the techniques is of the greatest importance, but there are certain ones that are easier to understand and therefore come first in someone's training, or at least should. It is all built on a foundation. Once the form is created the techniques are easier to understand and therefore apply. The more advanced ideas are just the basics accelerated to a usable speed.

It is no different than learning effective footwork. Walk first, then run.

Just an opinion.
Tuhon Philip Gelinas


Hi Phil,

Long time no see. Great post.

Here are my teaching notes from the first set of Solo Baston Contradas. From what I can see of the Tri-V formula, it looks like a simplified version of this set and its associated drills. Can you compare the two sets for us.

Regards,
Bill (that's Tuhon Bill to you non-old farts like me and Phil)
PS. The notes just show vs. a D 1 strike, but are used against all four diagonal lines.
D= diagonal, H= horizontal, WT= witik, ver = vertical, santi = santican, umb = umbrella



1st set Solo Contradas



1. D 1, D 2

2. Fake 1, H 2 or WT 2

3. D 1, D 4

4. 1- check-Slap wrist (outside) 2, check, slap (inside) in ver x2

5. 1-thrust

6. 1-slide-drop to hand 2 verticals

7. 1 check- santican-slash-scoop-slash

8. #1 umb-ver-santi funnybone- 2 vers

9. scoop-rev 3-D2-D1-ver-flor 2-1-ver

10. 1-scoop-jab (all one move like brk-out)

11. 1-santi Fbone- 2vers

12. #1 umb– ver- out scoop- #1seguidas

[TuhonBill]

I thought it might be helpful if I explained the drills associated with the first set of solo baston contradas. You first learn the drills based on the simple angles of diagonal ones and twos, but will later apply them to the complete contradas. The purpose of the drills was to apply several variations of footwork and timing on these two simple strikes. The idea was to apply complex timing to simple strikes as a warm up for your later applications of complex timing on complex strikes.


The first drill we learned was a simple feed of a diagonal one (D 1) which you sidestepped, passed with your left hand and then delivered a counter cut of D2 to the weapon arm. To this basic drill you would then add variations such as contact of D1 vs D1 followed by the D2 cut, or a fake of D 1 followed by the cut. Added to this was variations with your left hand. In addition to the pass you could jam or check so that the drill began to look something like a mid range version of segang labo. Then you would additional strikes slipped in-between the diagonals trying to double up on the timing. Your opponent would still be doing 1's and 2's but you would be doing things like D 1-vertical, D2-vertical. Then you would play with the ranges, doing each variation on corto, medio and largo range. Once you were taught the basics of the first set of contradas, you would apply the principles of these drills to all the numbers of the set. There was an emphasis in the higher levels of the drills to not make contact with your opponent's weapon but evade the attack and counter cut. If weapon to weapon contact was made, then it should only be with the sides or back of your blade, not with the edge.


Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

[gagimilo]

I like this thread and hope you guys will go into more material and details as it progresses...

[abdon]

This thread is great! Lots of very good material being shared here. I for one, greatly appreciate it!!!

Abdon

[selfcritical]

I was under the impression that the entire contradas sub-system works on the principle of avoiding contact with the other weapon altogether from the very beginning?

[wes tasker]

I was under the impression that the entire contradas sub-system works on the principle of avoiding contact with the other weapon altogether from the very beginning?

It does, hence the drill that Tuhon Bill described. There are a few instances of contact - but they are (for the most part) examples of advanced timing utilized in contact such as half-beats etc. Also, one can drill contact (hitting on 1's and 2's) and then use that as a platform with which to enter into Contradas and non-contact etc.

-wes tasker

[kaliman1978]

Awsome thread Tuhon Bill! Do you ever come to Texas for seminars?

[Ron Kosakowski]

I feel like I could jump in here.

I have been involved with PTK since 1981. I was fortunate to learn from a lot of GT Gaje's senior students as well as from him personally. This group included Tuhon McGrath. I have been continuing my connection with GT Gaje trying to learn and internalize the newer material as well.

I believe that the way to learn this method properly is to learn the method itself. It is, in my opinion, very difficult to draw the type of conclusions necessary to place the pieces in their proper position without the benefit of at least an idea where they should go. That idea is developed by practicing using the parts as they were designed to. Then the ideas of attack and defense are not random concepts but are eventually hard wired by constant, hard practice.

I don't think the order of learning most of the techniques is of the greatest importance, but there are certain ones that are easier to understand and therefore come first in someone's training, or at least should. It is all built on a foundation. Once the form is created the techniques are easier to understand and therefore apply. The more advanced ideas are just the basics accelerated to a usable speed.

It is no different than learning effective footwork. Walk first, then run.

Just an opinion.
Tuhon Philip Gelinas
Hi folks...nice thread! I have been heavily on the tri-v formula and I have to say the training methods behind it picked up my fight game a lot. Its an evolved training method that is very logical I feel. I am npot sure if it did the same for others but it worked well for me.

However, I do like to learn from the old timers in the system if for anything besides historical purposes, to see if it helps my fight game and my reflex that much more. Tuhon Phil already helped me out in learning the 12 double stick routine which to me seems valuable. Tim Waid has been helping me in some of the other areas I feel are valuable to learn.

Every master of a system will evolve one way or another. I oook at a martial art passed down through generations as proof reading something that is written. Take out what may be unnecessary or add what is neccessary. I did that with my Kuntao...after over 30 years in it, I can't see what I did wrong there! Grand Tuhon Leo seemed to do just that. Though, from what I see of the old and the new, there is not much difference. He is basically wiping out "pattern" so people are not stagnant looking for step one, step two, etc.

Anyway, the PTK seniors will be seeing me around. I really enjoy PTK and I want it all. (hear my greedy laugh?)

[wes tasker]

Ron-

Nice post... If you don't mind me asking - what exactly about the Tri-V methodology has helped you and how? I don't know it, at least under that name so I'm curious as to how it works (which I realize is difficult in a forum based on the written word....).



He is basically wiping out "pattern" so people are not stagnant looking for step one, step two, etc.


Also, I just have to add that pattern/technique/form learning does not necesarily equal stagnation. Thank you.

-wes tasker

[bttcanada@videotron.ca]

One of the many positive aspects of GT Gaje's time in NYC was his opportunity to transmit as much of the system as he did to his students there. I think that a lot of the potential stagnation referred to was from those who do not have this information base and rely on the step one, step two approach to fill the holes in their technical knowledge.

The training was always done over many hours at a time. I remember that my first training with GT Gaje began at about 6pm on the Friday night and ended when I could barely walk properly on Sunday afternoon. We trained for over 24 hours during a 48 hour period. My hands looked like I was wearing gloves but it was just the bandaids I had covered the blisters with.

Ergo the need to flow.

I am thankful for the time I get to spend with him but I would be lying if I was to say that I have the new stuff all neatly arranged. I understand it intuitively when I do it, but I am working on my personal overview still.

Tuhon Philip Gelinas

(Bill, thank for the kind words. Still working on an answer)

[Ron Kosakowski]

Ron-

[QUOTE] Nice post... If you don't mind me asking - what exactly about the Tri-V methodology has helped you and how? I don't know it, at least under that name so I'm curious as to how it works (which I realize is difficult in a forum based on the written word....).
Tri-V as I see it is everything you do is triangle based. For example, take #1 strike...to counter it, you move 45, you hit the strike or the person with a 45 degree angle, the body is also angled at a 45 during those other movements. Thats what grand Tuhon calls counter offensive movement. All based on simplicity through proper training of a geometrical science as I see it.




Also, I just have to add that pattern/technique/form learning does not necesarily equal stagnation. Thank you.I agree a student has to start somewhere so a pattern of movement is necessary or what do you teach a student and where do you start. I show students that to get them to do precision hitting and thrusting. Its amazing how many people cannot swing a weapon until I give them careful attention and sometimes for a few weeks. However, those patterns have to be random movements eventually or else you are practicing empty movements that really do not develop the proper reflexes to counter and hit with good timing.

That should be a rule for all martial art styles. Notice the people that practice forms or katas are more offensive fighters with no counter attacking skills. The stronger, younger more athletic person will always win there. I feel "structured random play" can train an individual to defeat a younger athletic person. Hence the reason I choose the martial art styles I teach.

[TuhonBill]

[quote=wes tasker;26396]Ron-

Tri-V as I see it is everything you do is triangle based. For example, take #1 strike...to counter it, you move 45, you hit the strike or the person with a 45 degree angle, the body is also angled at a 45 during those other movements. Thats what grand Tuhon calls counter offensive movement. All based on simplicity through proper training of a geometrical science as I see it.

I agree a student has to start somewhere so a pattern of movement is necessary or what do you teach a student and where do you start. I show students that to get them to do precision hitting and thrusting. Its amazing how many people cannot swing a weapon until I give them careful attention and sometimes for a few weeks. However, those patterns have to be random movements eventually or else you are practicing empty movements that really do not develop the proper reflexes to counter and hit with good timing.

That should be a rule for all martial art styles. Notice the people that practice forms or katas are more offensive fighters with no counter attacking skills. The stronger, younger more athletic person will always win there. I feel "structured random play" can train an individual to defeat a younger athletic person. Hence the reason I choose the martial art styles I teach.

Hi Ron,

Nice, well thought out post. If I can add my 2 cents on the subject of forms so those new to Pekiti will be clear on the issue. The sets in Pekiti-Tirsia are not “forms” per se, but are sample combinations that demonstrate a particular principle. To use boxing terms, if you had a set that taught combinations that began with a jab, the set might look like this:
Jab-cross-jab
Jab-left hook-cross-jab
Jab-low right hook-high right hook-jab And so on for the 12 attack combos that comprise that set. You are saying to the student, “Here are 12 combinations that begin with a jab. They are not the only ones possible, but these illustrate how to use the jab well.” You usually begin training with a simple flow drill that shows how to use footwork and timing at that range and under this particular theory (let’s say using combos that start with a jab, at long range, to get in, hit and withdraw, in order to avoid the clinch), then add the techniques from the set into this drill. After this you spar, finding which of these techniques best fit your own fighting style (usually its just two or three per set: but your three favorites might not be the best three for the guy next to you). Not every set works for everyone (Mike Tyson wouldn’t have as much use for the jab set as would Ali, but would do well with the upper cut and hook set), but those who wish to become instructors should have all these tools in their tool box in order to give a variety of students the particular tool each student will need to get a particular job done.

Here is one simple drill I teach in my basic single stick course (the 5 Attacks Subsystem). Your opponent attacks with 4 diagonal strikes (1,2,3,4 from 5 Attacks).
You can only counter with a diagonal 1 strike. I then show how footwork and distancing will change when countering a 1 with a 1, then countering a 2 with a 1, a 3 with a 1, etc. Then the students will do the same drill countering the 4 diagonals using only a 2 strike, then only a 3, then only a 4. In all this, they are still only using 4 very basic strikes, but they are learning to use, and more importantly, to understand the use of, some pretty advanced concepts of timing, footwork and distancing. In the advanced sets, technique one is often taught as a drill, with different variations of timing, footwork, distance, etc. Then, once the full set is taught, you revisit the basic drill and feed the rest of the set into it.


If you think of the drills as the stock for a soup, then the techniques in the sets are the meat, vegetables and spices that will give the soup its particular flavor. GT Gaje would often tell us to “learn to forget,” meaning that we would learn the drills and sets, spar to find what works for us individually and then forget the sets and focus on getting better on the items we liked.

One size does not fit all.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath
www.pekiti.com (http://www.pekiti.com/)

[TuhonBill]

[quote=wes tasker;26396]Ron-

Tri-V as I see it is everything you do is triangle based. For example, take #1 strike...to counter it, you move 45, you hit the strike or the person with a 45 degree angle, the body is also angled at a 45 during those other movements. Thats what grand Tuhon calls counter offensive movement. All based on simplicity through proper training of a geometrical science as I see it.

I agree a student has to start somewhere so a pattern of movement is necessary or what do you teach a student and where do you start. I show students that to get them to do precision hitting and thrusting. Its amazing how many people cannot swing a weapon until I give them careful attention and sometimes for a few weeks. However, those patterns have to be random movements eventually or else you are practicing empty movements that really do not develop the proper reflexes to counter and hit with good timing.

That should be a rule for all martial art styles. Notice the people that practice forms or katas are more offensive fighters with no counter attacking skills. The stronger, younger more athletic person will always win there. I feel "structured random play" can train an individual to defeat a younger athletic person. Hence the reason I choose the martial art styles I teach.

Hi Ron,

Nice, well thought out post. If I can add my 2 cents on the subject of forms so those new to Pekiti will be clear on the issue. The sets in Pekiti-Tirsia are not “forms” per se, but are sample combinations that demonstrate a particular principle. To use boxing terms, if you had a set that taught combinations that began with a jab, the set might look like this:
Jab-cross-jab
Jab-left hook-cross-jab
Jab-low right hook-high right hook-jab And so on for the 12 attack combos that comprise that set. You are saying to the student, “Here are 12 combinations that begin with a jab. They are not the only ones possible, but these illustrate how to use the jab well.” You usually begin training with a simple flow drill that shows how to use footwork and timing at that range and under this particular theory (let’s say using combos that start with a jab, at long range, to get in, hit and withdraw, in order to avoid the clinch), then add the techniques from the set into this drill. After this you spar, finding which of these techniques best fit your own fighting style (usually it's just two or three per set: but your three favorites might not be the best three for the guy next to you). Not every set works for everyone (Mike Tyson wouldn’t have as much use for the jab set as would Ali, but would do well with the upper cut and hook set), but those who wish to become instructors should have all these tools in their tool box in order to give a variety of students the particular tool each student will need to get a particular job done.

Here is one simple drill I teach in my basic single stick course (the 5 Attacks Subsystem). Your opponent attacks with 4 diagonal strikes (1,2,3,4 from 5 Attacks).
You can only counter with a diagonal 1 strike. I then show how footwork and distancing will change when countering a 1 with a 1, then countering a 2 with a 1, a 3 with a 1, etc. Then the students will do the same drill countering the 4 diagonals using only a 2 strike, then only a 3, then only a 4. In all this they are still only using 4 very basic strikes, but they are learning to use, and more importantly, to understand the use of, some pretty advanced concepts of timing, footwork and distancing. In the advanced sets, technique one is often taught as a drill, with different variations of timing, footwork, distance, etc. Then, once the full set is taught, you revisit the basic drill and feed the rest of the set into it.


If you think of the drills as the stock for a soup, then the techniques in the sets are the meat, vegetables and spices that will give the soup its particular flavor. GT Gaje would often tell us to “learn to forget,” meaning that we would learn the drills and sets, spar to find what works for us individually and then forget the sets and focus on getting better on the items we liked.

One size does not fit all.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath
www.pekiti.com (http://www.pekiti.com/)

[Ron Kosakowski]

[quote=Ron Kosakowski;26538]

Hi Ron,

Nice, well thought out post. If I can add my 2 cents on the subject of forms so those new to Pekiti will be clear on the issue. The sets in Pekiti-Tirsia are not “forms” per se, but are sample combinations that demonstrate a particular principle. To use boxing terms, if you had a set that taught combinations that began with a jab, the set might look like this:

Jab-cross-jab
Jab-left hook-cross-jab
Jab-low right hook-high right hook-jabAnd so on for the 12 attack combos that comprise that set. You are saying to the student, “Here are 12 combinations that begin with a jab. They are not the only ones possible, but these illustrate how to use the jab well.” You usually begin training with a simple flow drill that shows how to use footwork and timing at that range and under this particular theory (let’s say using combos that start with a jab, at long range, to get in, hit and withdraw, in order to avoid the clinch), then add the techniques from the set into this drill. After this you spar, finding which of these techniques best fit your own fighting style (usually its just two or three per set: but your three favorites might not be the best three for the guy next to you). Not every set works for everyone (Mike Tyson wouldn’t have as much use for the jab set as would Ali, but would do well with the upper cut and hook set), but those who wish to become instructors should have all these tools in their tool box in order to give a variety of students the particular tool each student will need to get a particular job done.

Here is one simple drill I teach in my basic single stick course (the 5 Attacks Subsystem). Your opponent attacks with 4 diagonal strikes (1,2,3,4 from 5 Attacks).
You can only counter with a diagonal 1 strike. I then show how footwork and distancing will change when countering a 1 with a 1, then countering a 2 with a 1, a 3 with a 1, etc. Then the students will do the same drill countering the 4 diagonals using only a 2 strike, then only a 3, then only a 4. In all this, they are still only using 4 very basic strikes, but they are learning to use, and more importantly, to understand the use of, some pretty advanced concepts of timing, footwork and distancing. In the advanced sets, technique one is often taught as a drill, with different variations of timing, footwork, distance, etc. Then, once the full set is taught, you revisit the basic drill and feed the rest of the set into it.


If you think of the drills as the stock for a soup, then the techniques in the sets are the meat, vegetables and spices that will give the soup its particular flavor. GT Gaje would often tell us to “learn to forget,” meaning that we would learn the drills and sets, spar to find what works for us individually and then forget the sets and focus on getting better on the items we liked.

One size does not fit all.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath
www.pekiti.com (http://www.pekiti.com)Oh, I agree with practicing sets of moves. I practice slashing and return slashes and thrusting and slashing at a few different angles in the air and on the tires. Much like a boxer would with his various combinations. That has to be done. I should have explained that I meant long drawn out forms are what I am not into. The long drawn out forms are what I feel will never develop the person as a fighter. If I explained the "long drawn out" part here in my last reply, I think we would have been on the same page.

Yes, he still always says, "learn to forget!" I love Grand Tuhon Leo's phylisophical use of wording.

[lhommedieu]

I agree a student has to start somewhere so a pattern of movement is necessary or what do you teach a student and where do you start. I show students that to get them to do precision hitting and thrusting. Its amazing how many people cannot swing a weapon until I give them careful attention and sometimes for a few weeks. However, those patterns have to be random movements eventually or else you are practicing empty movements that really do not develop the proper reflexes to counter and hit with good timing.

Ron,

Nice post.

An analogy from baseball would be that whereas a good hitter has received the proper coaching with respect to the proper "form" of hitting a ball (head allignment, body mechanics, footwork, etc.) down to the nth degree (where exactly do I snap my wrists? etc.), it takes practice hitting tens of thousands of fastballs, sliders, change-ups, and curves with proper form before you can play in the major leagues. When you face a pitcher and you don't know what kind of pitch you'll face (random play) it's still your batting form (combined with freakish, God-given eye-hand coordination) that will carry you through successfully (at least 1/3 of the time).


That should be a rule for all martial art styles. Notice the people that practice forms or katas are more offensive fighters with no counter attacking skills. The stronger, younger more athletic person will always win there. I feel "structured random play" can train an individual to defeat a younger athletic person. Hence the reason I choose the martial art styles I teach.

I believe that one should distinguish between solo forms practice and the kinds of counter for counter duo (or more) forms practice that are the staple of a lot of FMA's. Solo forms practice not really so much about "practicing techniques" than it is about practicing the core body mechanics that increase one's chances of, e.g., hitting effectively with speed and power. Most people do not practice solo forms with the level of mental focus required to realize real gains in physical ability, and confuse the ability ot execute flashy technique with the ability to fight well. Forms do not teach fighting - they train attributes that are considered important by effective fighters.

Likewise, the kinds of duo forms (drills) that are the bread and butter of a lot of FMA training and that constitute the gamut from "structured patterned play" to the kind of "structured random play" that you mention above, to "stuctured highly random play" (sparring), teach different sets of attributes considered important by effective fighters. Similarly, "most people do not practice drills with the level of mental focus required to realize real gains in physical ability, and confuse...etc."

With respect to longer forms: any long form can be broken down into smaller units similar to the ones with which you and Tuhon Bill are in agreement. One martial artist whom I respect greatly would rather practice a 3 movement pattern (taken from a 21 movement form, e.g.) 1000 times than practice the form 100 times - and then move to the next pattern, in turn, etc. After 30 years of training in this fashon, he's forgotten more forms than I could ever remember - and yet his movement is pretty good!

Best,

Steve

[Jack Latorre]

Oh, I agree with practicing sets of moves. I practice slashing and return slashes and thrusting and slashing at a few different angles in the air and on the tires. Much like a boxer would with his various combinations. That has to be done. I should have explained that I meant long drawn out forms are what I am not into. The long drawn out forms are what I feel will never develop the person as a fighter. If I explained the "long drawn out" part here in my last reply, I think we would have been on the same page.

Yes, he still always says, "learn to forget!" I love Grand Tuhon Leo's phylisophical use of wording.


Ron--

Thoughtful posts on your behalf...

As any of us would wish to end a combative engagement as quickly as possible, much of what the basics in the PTI curriculum cover is just that...escaping if possible, hitting violently and accurately when necessary, not getting hit ourselves if at all possible...that's the "Plan A". Much of the rest of the curriculum addresses "Plan B", "Plan C" and so on...and how the ways that can be accomplished (seeing how we all may fight differently).

'Forms' serve the dual purpose of...
-doumenting a technique for pedagogy
-and teching the body motion and structure necessary for maximum effect.

The 'sets' (from how I view them), not only demonstrate the aforementioned, but tend to solve a conceptual problem...and each technique in that 'set' demonstrates specifics as to how that problem may be solved. The techniques are organized into a context into which the intial problem is confronted and tangents may be developed. These 'sets' are the "what ifs" we are all familiar with...

"That lock is cool but what if he tries to stab you with his other hand?"
"What if he is bigger than me...what technique can I use instead?"
"What if I botch this technique...what other ones can a flow into?"

The answers to some of those tangents can often be found in other 'sets' within the curriculum. All of this serving to unify the core question of the curriculum..."how to I protect myself and my loved ones from the bad guys who are wielding weapons?"

The perceived "long drawn out" aspect really depends on how you decide to train something and your individual patience level. ALL of the sets can be fitted in a myriad of drills in order to make them come out in sparring (and hopefully self-defense). I can personally attest the this idea regarding ANYTHING, but specifically Pekiti-Tirsia...anything worth having is worth working for.

In the end, it's really up to the practitioner to decide how to train something to make it work. But the design of the curriculum can be very helpful in that regards.

Regards,

Jack A. Latorre

[gagimilo]

You know, as uninformed as it may look to you guys here, could someone please describe the four diagonal strikes of the 5 attack subset? Are those two downward and two upward diagonals (like in some cinco teros systems), or is it something else..?

[Jack Latorre]

Gagimilo--

Yes, the 5 Attacks Sub-System is just that, with the 5th attack being a thrust. Those angles are done from both open-side and closed-side chambers, and with full-arc swings, jabs/retracted swings, eye thrusts and the like. They come with associated drills that have accompanying footwork to generate power, establish range and develop a sense of evasion.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Jack A. Latorre

[Ron Kosakowski]

Ron--

Thoughtful posts on your behalf...

As any of us would wish to end a combative engagement as quickly as possible, much of what the basics in the PTI curriculum cover is just that...escaping if possible, hitting violently and accurately when necessary, not getting hit ourselves if at all possible...that's the "Plan A". Much of the rest of the curriculum addresses "Plan B", "Plan C" and so on...and how the ways that can be accomplished (seeing how we all may fight differently).

'Forms' serve the dual purpose of...
-doumenting a technique for pedagogy
-and teching the body motion and structure necessary for maximum effect.

The 'sets' (from how I view them), not only demonstrate the aforementioned, but tend to solve a conceptual problem...and each technique in that 'set' demonstrates specifics as to how that problem may be solved. The techniques are organized into a context into which the intial problem is confronted and tangents may be developed. These 'sets' are the "what ifs" we are all familiar with...

"That lock is cool but what if he tries to stab you with his other hand?"
"What if he is bigger than me...what technique can I use instead?"
"What if I botch this technique...what other ones can a flow into?"

The answers to some of those tangents can often be found in other 'sets' within the curriculum. All of this serving to unify the core question of the curriculum..."how to I protect myself and my loved ones from the bad guys who are wielding weapons?"

The perceived "long drawn out" aspect really depends on how you decide to train something and your individual patience level. ALL of the sets can be fitted in a myriad of drills in order to make them come out in sparring (and hopefully self-defense). I can personally attest the this idea regarding ANYTHING, but specifically Pekiti-Tirsia...anything worth having is worth working for.

In the end, it's really up to the practitioner to decide how to train something to make it work. But the design of the curriculum can be very helpful in that regards.

Regards,

Jack A. Latorre
There is a large history sitting out there in the Pekiti Tirsia world. One thing Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje does is getting his students to react. And come to their own conclusion on how the system works. Pekiti Tirsia is a system of freedom of expression. Each student is on the same page but may have their own way they make it work. I found working with Mike Franchetti (I hope I spelled his name correctly), Tim Waid, a little with Phil Gelinas really enhanced my knowledge of the system. I did the same thing with my Kuntao...I went to all the guys that were there before me. Due to that, I acquired an awful lotta knowledge of the system even though I spent most of my time with the one who brought it to the US. After all, knowledge is power, if one can functionalize that knowledge of course.

I hope that makes sense in this discussion!

[gagimilo]

Thanx Mr. Latorre, it helps a lot. I mean, it puts some of the previous posts into much more of a perspective.