Forum Description.

[arnisador]

I received this suggestion:

The DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS systems primary focus is to rapidly close the distance on your opponent(s). Enabling practitioners of the system to finish the opponent(s) with superior close quarter / in fighting techniques. DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS puts tremendous emphasis on footwork, body mechanics and hand manipulation. The system is divided into three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. The strategies are present in all DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS techniques. Empty hand, impact weapons, bladed weapons, firearms, empty hand vs. empty hand and grappling. Making the system complete in every detail and the number or techniques limitless.

It's a bit long, I think...I might suggest this:

Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas focuses on rapidly closing the distance, enabling practitioners of the system to finish the opponent with superior close-quarter/in-fighting techniques. There is tremendous emphasis on footwork, body mechanicsm, and hand manipulation. The system is divided into three basic strategies: attack, counter attack, and counter the counter. Empty hand, impact weapons, bladed weapons, firearms, empty hand vs. empty hand, and grappling are all taught.

Suggestions?

[NAGA]

Hello all,
Honestly I like the longer version for the hyperbole and the shorter one for it berevity, Nervertheless the Midwest folks like the longer version....

Thanks,
John

[arnisador]

I think it'd look awakward on the page being that long...just a matter of web page display stuff.

[Dawn]

DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS focuses on rapidly closing in on your opponent(s) and finishing them off with superior close-quarter / in-fighting techniques. The system puts tremendous emphasis on footwork, body mechanics and hand manipulation. DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS is divided into three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. The system is complete in every detail, using techniques that include empty hand, impact weapons, bladed weapons, firearms, empty hand vs. empty hand and grappling.

------
Hi, I don't practice DTS, I just moonlight as an editor. Suggestion above, feel free to ignore/discard.

[R. Mike Snow]

Thank you for your input Dawn,

I like the longer versions as well, but I have to agree, "there is just not enough room." So let's see if we can shorten it up a bit more.......... and see if we can still get the point across.

DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS a blade oriented system, primarily focusing on footwork. Enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance in finsh the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. Which are present in all techniques of the system, empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearms, empty hand vs. weaponry and grappling.


How about a final vote?

[R. Mike Snow]

Oops, typo!

DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS a blade oriented system, primarily focusing on footwork. Enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finsh the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. Which are present in all techniques of the system, empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearms, empty hand vs. weaponry and grappling.

[silat1]

Oops, typo!

DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS a blade oriented system, primarily focusing on footwork. Enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finsh the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. Which are present in all techniques of the system, empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearms, empty hand vs. weaponry and grappling.



How about this:
DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS is a blade oriented system, primarily focusing on footwork, enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finishing the opponent(s).. This system has three basic stragegies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. These aspects are present in all techniques of the system and are included in the empty hand, impact/bladed weapons, firearms and grappling.

[R. Mike Snow]

Looks great Brother Bill!

Short, sweet and straight to the point!

No pun intended of course.

How about a couple more votes athen we'll ask Dr. Dumogero what he thinks?http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_4_24v.gif

[kaliace]

Firearms……Grappling……I think those need to be taken off all together.

Firearms makes people think we teach proper weapon handling and shooting techniques.

Grappling lets not hop on the MMA bandwagon and leave that for the want-to-be’s

[R. Mike Snow]

You are correct on the firearms, it should be firearm retention and bayonet tactics. I will ask Matt how soon we can get the clips up for everyone to view.

As for the grappling, I have worked with GT Nene's grappling quite a bit. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn any of it yet Mike. GM calls the ground fighting with a blade Harrada and his sport wrestling Dumog of course. It looks to me like a cross between Shuai Chiao, Aiki-Jujutsu, free-style wrestling and Vale Tudo. So far, the Judo, Ju Jutsu, wresling and a BJJ practitioner I know, seem to be very impressed with GM's Dumog and want a lot more of it. John, Jeff, Mitch, Jose, Norm and Keith are all over for it. We want it all........ Pendakar Style has even been helping me out with the rules for the competitions. GM will even be demonstrating his Dumog at the Sulong Championship this October. Hope you can make it.

Looks like your students Matt and Lance will be coming to the gathering. We can ask GM to cover some more Dumog at the gathering. It's actually one of my favorite parts of the system. Hope you came make the trip over here too.

[R. Mike Snow]

DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS a blade oriented system, primarily focusing on footwork. Enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finsh the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. Which are present in all techniques of the system, empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearm retention, empty hand vs. weaponry and Dumog.


Quote by GT Nene Tortal, "Empty hand isour major."

We have our own style of dirty boxing too Mike. The hooks, straight punches and upper cuts are the same as the sak-sak and the hammer fists are the same as the pakal.

Both the Panggamut and the Dumog have a lot of palm changes and footwork applications similar to Bagua. The reversalsto throws and locks are also very similar to Bagua and Shuai Chiao. The reversals look similar to wrestling but have their own twist. The clinching techniques appear to be like Muay Thai but are very different. I can go on and on.......

None of this has anything to do with MMA's, it's a little bit older older..........

[arnisador]

He certainly knows a lot of very effective grappling, and I do think of that as part of DTS based on my interactions...in fact the many disarms have something of a similar feel too. Maybe other DTS practitioners don't emphasize it as heavily as Mr. Tortal does?

[NAGA]

hey Evferybody,
I like hiw Bill worded it (Also I respect Bill and his opinions) ! Also, from personal experience GM Tortal is a "World class" Dumogero, he can reverse (reversa) just about anytype of hold or lock you can think of and more. We palyed alot of Snatch and counter in 2006 and most of the time I sailed through the air and was "Whiplashed" (GM calls it cracking the whip) too the ground. After that I was either spun and locked or, if a knife was involved I was being struck in some rather sensitve areas. Also my students can attest too the punishment I took during the public seminar, as well also teach Danzan-ryu jujitsu at the school and GM wanted his flavor of grappling to be shown so I would say I spent a good couple of hours sailing and landing (Hard). Also, when I hosted GM Tortal at an Aikido school his throws buried me on the mat so hard even the Aikido folks were wincing and saying those are some real hard throws.... So grappling (dumog) which actually means "wrestling", though you kind of have to say it with a small "w" and a somewhat redneck accent means just what it is and it is a big part of the system....

Thanks,
John

[R. Mike Snow]

DEKITI-TIRSIA SIRADAS a blade oriented system, primarily focusing on footwork. Enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finsh the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack and counter the counter. Which are present in all techniques of the system, empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearm retention, empty hand vs. weaponry and Dumog.

Ok then........ may we have a few votes on this forum description, "Oo" or "Hindi"?

[arnisador]

Looks OK to me! I don't think I'd make the name all caps...we don't do that for any of the others, I think. Is the hyphen right: D-T S? Is caps for Dumog right?

Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas is a blade oriented system with a focus on footwork, enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finish the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack, and counter the counter. These are present in all techniques of the system--empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearm retention, empty hand vs. weaponry, and Dumog.

[R. Mike Snow]

As long as it's ok with everyone else I guess we can run with it......... Everything looks good to me. You are correct
Dr. Dumogero, it sould be dumog. It is hyphened correctly too.

I will ask GT Nene if it's ok with him and will have an answer tonight.

Thanks, Mike

[arnisador]

OK, sounds good! I'm leaving town on Friday and may be out of touch so if we don't have it settled before I leave it may be a week before I get to it.

[silat1]

As long as it's ok with everyone else I guess we can run with it......... Everything looks good to me. You are correct
Dr. Dumogero, it sould be dumog. It is hyphened correctly too.

I will ask GT Nene if it's ok with him and will have an answer tonight.

Thanks, Mike


Mike
Tell GT Nene that Bill from Guam says hi.. He probably will remember me as the individual who was in chicago and was with John when we were talking about Filipina wives.. He will probably remember me as the individual who's wife is from Pampanga (angeles city))

[R. Mike Snow]

Will do Bill, I will tell GT you said hello when I speak to him tonight.

[R. Mike Snow]

Well, here we have it. This is what I worked out with Ms. Joy Tortal and the boss(GT Nene) just a few minutes ago.

Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas is a blade oriented system heavily emphasizing footwork, enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finish the opponent(s). This system is has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack, and counter the counter. Which are present in all techniques of the system: empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearm retention, empty hand vs. weaponry, and dumog.

Is it still short enough Dr. Dumogero?

[arnisador]

I think so! I'll put it in like this:

Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas is a blade oriented system heavily emphasizing footwork, enabling the practitioner to rapidly close the distance and finish the opponent(s). This system has three basic strategies: attack, counter attack, and counter the counter. These are present in all techniques of the system: empty hand, impact and bladed weapons, firearm retention, empty hand vs. weaponry, and dumog.

[arnisador]

It looks OK to me! It's about the right size. I still find the JKD-Kali and LSAI descriptions a bit long. It should be just enough to pull people into the forum to read more!

[R. Mike Snow]

Looks good to me, thanks........ Let's go for it. Have a great trip!

[kaliace]

You are correct on the firearms, it should be firearm retention and bayonet tactics. I will ask Matt how soon we can get the clips up for everyone to view.

As for the grappling, I have worked with GT Nene's grappling quite a bit. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn any of it yet Mike. GM calls the ground fighting with a blade Harrada and his sport wrestling Dumog of course. It looks to me like a cross between Shuai Chiao, Aiki-Jujutsu, free-style wrestling and Vale Tudo. So far, the Judo, Ju Jutsu, wresling and a BJJ practitioner I know, seem to be very impressed with GM's Dumog and want a lot more of it. John, Jeff, Mitch, Jose, Norm and Keith are all over for it. We want it all........ Pendakar Style has even been helping me out with the rules for the competitions. GM will even be demonstrating his Dumog at the Sulong Championship this October. Hope you can make it.

Looks like your students Matt and Lance will be coming to the gathering. We can ask GM to cover some more Dumog at the gathering. It's actually one of my favorite parts of the system. Hope you came make the trip over here too.


Sorry about the late reply, but lets get started.

I will not be able to make the “Gathering” out in Indianan. I have already broken a promise to be at Master Style’s seminar in KC. I would like to again apologize publicly to Master Style for that as I know he reads these forums.

It is good to hear a couple of my former students will be able to make that trip.

As for the general dog pile I have seem to cause with this thread, well to bad. You can all cite times when Grand Master has thrown us threw the air or tied us up on the ground. Some can even talk about working with firearms, in the realm of some effective disarms. As for the fact the Mr. Snow has pointed out that I have not been taught the “ground fighting” by Grand Master, yep that is true. That does that mean I do not believe it exists. I simply stated that it should not be called grappling, because it is not. I don’t know firearm retention either, and have never claimed to know it. How many of us DTS gurus know it either? I could think of a couple, but that is only because they are in Law Enforcement or the Military. Someone like me who does not carry a gun every day for their job or survival in the battle field should not claim to know or teach firearm retention. It really is that simple.

This is it for me really, I will let you all jump all over my Outrageous statements. At least you know who I am.

Michael Olive

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi Mike,

No one was intentionally jumping on you man. And everyone knows how great your knife skills are. GM has actually told be quite a few time how you and David are naturals at it.

We all found out about the grapppling and ground fighting by accident. I started doing extremely low Silat enries with sword/ dagger. GM would drop and stick me every time(Harrada). Then about three years ago, we were goofing around on the mats doing a little wrestling and Shuai-Chiao. GM stepped out into the garage, set his lunch down as fast as he could and jumped right in,"No, like this. like this." That's how I stumbled across the grappling aspect of the system. You are correct however. The intention of GM's grappling techniques are not to get someone to submit of the ground. That's just to dangerours to your self. It's to get back up on your feet so that the other guys does not stab you. That's where the grappling comes in, it's a great way to work on reversals to holds and throws.

Well anyway Mike, we wouls all love to see ya and GM will be here in Terre Haute a lot this year. I can ever run GM out there to you between semniars.

God Bless, Mike

[arnisador]

Heh, I could tell so many stories about Prof. Presas from Modern Arnis..."He showed you what? But he never showed it to me. Is it really part of the art or just something he knows?" I've heard lengthy orthodoxy arguments about what is and isn't Modern Arnis vs. part of the Prof.'s repertoire. I don't know what to say!

[R. Mike Snow]

Actually I think it'sreally cool that everyone learns something different or a little extra of this or that, on top of our structured curriculum. That's why I think it's really important for DTS instructors, practitioners and groups to train with each other and share techniques and concepts whem GT Nene is not here.

Everyone has their favorite aspects of the system too. Mine are the Dumog, Panggamut and Harada. I love the sumission grappling part of the Dumog a lot. Getting out of the holds to get back on my feet I think is reall important on the street. Along with reversals to throws and takedowns.

John is really awesome with the baston, sword and Harada(knife), you're really awesome with the Dumog, baston and knife. Everyone has that little extra from what they have been sown and what they favor.

If it were not for you and Keith Wetoskey, I probably would know even less about the Dumog. It was around you guys tghat GT Nene really strated showing it. If it were not for Pendakar Style and John, I probably would not know as much about the Harada. Each person GT does around he pulls a different species of rabbit out of his hat. How closely related all these techniques are to each other just blows my mind. Thesame motions us use to defend against a knife standing up may be used against a puch while you are on your back. The same footwork you use for a Contrada might be used to reverse a throw.

I was discussing with Pendakar a couple of weeksago how many uses the are just for 1 & 2 and how those two lines of attack can be used against countless numbers of on coming attacts. I remember whem I met him in VA about ten years ago by accident. He siad, "let me show you how many things I can do with just your 1 & 2." Then he spent a good hour whooping everyone's @$$ with different techniques using 1 & 2, even empy handed. Then pointed out to me how great this system really was becuase of it's simplicity. "Just flow, it's all the same."

There's a lot of stuff that we still don't know.............

[silat1]

Actually I think it'sreally cool that everyone learns something different or a little extra of this or that, on top of our structured curriculum. That's why I think it's really important for DTS instructors, practitioners and groups to train with each other and share techniques and concepts whem GT Nene is not here.

Everyone has their favorite aspects of the system too. Mine are the Dumog, Panggamut and Harada. I love the sumission grappling part of the Dumog a lot. Getting out of the holds to get back on my feet I think is reall important on the street. Along with reversals to throws and takedowns.

John is really awesome with the baston, sword and Harada(knife), you're really awesome with the Dumog, baston and knife. Everyone has that little extra from what they have been sown and what they favor.

If it were not for you and Keith Wetoskey, I probably would know even less about the Dumog. It was around you guys tghat GT Nene really strated showing it. If it were not for Pendakar Style and John, I probably would not know as much about the Harada. Each person GT does around he pulls a different species of rabbit out of his hat. How closely related all these techniques are to each other just blows my mind. Thesame motions us use to defend against a knife standing up may be used against a puch while you are on your back. The same footwork you use for a Contrada might be used to reverse a throw.

I was discussing with Pendakar a couple of weeksago how many uses the are just for 1 & 2 and how those two lines of attack can be used against countless numbers of on coming attacts. I remember whem I met him in VA about ten years ago by accident. He siad, "let me show you how many things I can do with just your 1 & 2." Then he spent a good hour whooping everyone's @$$ with different techniques using 1 & 2, even empy handed. Then pointed out to me how great this system really was becuase of it's simplicity. "Just flow, it's all the same."

There's a lot of stuff that we still don't know.............



That one reason to get as much information from the source as possible.. There are a lot of fma systems that died on the vine because of the lack of contact between the senior people and the newer generation of students.. That is what I found out by talking to senior filipino students of Master Reston over the years.. I found out that as he got older, the training changes or evolved to allow him to keep slamming and jamming with the newer generation student, but he kept bouncing them off of the walls just like GT Nene did with John when he came to chicago in 06.. It was dejavu for me to see that happen again, especially with the newer generation of students who are partaking of the martial culture of the Philippines for the first time. It is well worth experiencing and it will give you a perspective from the historical aspects of the FMA to see the Manongs from the home country who still practice their family art and passing it along to the new generation of practitioners of the world.

I am glad that I was fortunate to touch hands and stick with GT Nene and as a second generation instructor of the FMA who trained in exclusively in the Philippines, the training with GT Nene was like stepping back in time and experiencing the training that I had in the 70's when I was a young pup in the FMA.

Mabuhay Dekiti Tirsia Siradas

[R. Mike Snow]

How right you are Bill................

Sharing what we have leaned and learning from each other is only going to benfit all of us. John and I swapped a few Dekiti knife techniques last time I was up there. I helped John with empy hand vs. knife and John helped me out with knife vs. knife.

There are so many techniques it is mind boggling. So I just ingrain the concepts and the techniques just come out. But there are always things I have questions about. Thinking about the similarities between the techniques is what helps me retain so many. It still amazes me how even the grappling techniques come from the Contradas and blade techniques.

Last time we were up at Guro Keith's place Guro Lisa asked a question about how to escaped the guard position when someone's trying to kill you with a knife in Pakal. GT instructed her to use the hand techniques from the Palipas Contrada, while bridging on her left side, turning her feet to the right, rolling to her right and stepping around with her left foot. While disarming the knife on GT's left leg, grabbing the knife and counter attacking. GT pointed out that the footwork still came into play while she was one her back. It looked like a Palipas Contrada on a different axis. Still astounded about that particular technique. We went over quite a few ground fighting techniques then worked empty hand on the guard, mount and half mount techniques. When the Arisador was here we were going through a few similar techniques and GT comapered a couple of the technqies to "chopping wood", he later explained that was how that particular techniques was taught to him as a child.

God Bless, Mike

[arnisador]

OK, you must show me that defense next time!

[R. Mike Snow]

Better yet Arnisador, GT will be here in less than a month. You can watch him torture me like he always does...........

[arnisador]

Save me a seat! Actually I may be confined to bed for a bit still at that point...

[R. Mike Snow]

Been there, done that a few times........ I am just thankful you will be back doing what you love to do in a few. GT will be here off and on for six months. So you will have plenty of chances to watch me be tortured. I think I am going to host a small private GT Tortal / DTS Dumog seminar in late Octobar in your honor. It's the least I can do........

[arnisador]

Count me in! You're always looking for ways to share the art--that's great! I love the positivity.

[R. Mike Snow]

Do you want a full weekend for dumog or a few week nights? If you want to, we can spend a weekend on nothing but knife and dumog. Then I will invite the John and his crew, Keith and his crew and Brian and Jeff's crew. Basically all of us Hoosier and Illini folks........

We can call it the DTS Dumog / Wecome Back Arnisador Seminar!

[arnisador]

Well, that would hit my biggest interests, but be sure to make everyone happy!