unable to access

[gagimilo]

Hey, I cannot access the Pekiti Tirsia section of the forum!? I mean, all the other ones work just fine, but not this one... what is the problem?

[GLENNLOBO]

yeah i cant get on there either.. i guess the administrator got fed up.. cant blame him

[Datu Tim Hartman]

There is nothing wrong with the forum – I closed it down. This feud between Gaje and Tortal has gone on long enough here on FMAT. I don’t care who started what, I don’t care who the rightful heir is, I don’t even care who is a better martial artist. These juvenile activities are ending now. Since Mr. Gaje’s appearance here on FMAT, there have been more and more problems. Until further notice, I am closing the PTK section. I wanted to have as many arts as possible represented here. Unfortunately when people abuse the privilege, they lose it.
Just so everyone knows, I alone made this decision. The rest of my staff had nothing to do with it. So if somebody wants to blame anyone, I am the person. If people would like to make “productive” posts on the subject of PTK, please feel free to use the general section on the forum, until I feel it is time to open the forum back up. I have already suspended and banned people on both sides of the argument. I hope I will not be forced to add more people to that list. I know this decision may not be popular, but I am doing what I feel is best for FMATalk. If people choose to leave our site, I am sure there are sites out there that would be willing to put up with this kind of behavior.

[GLENNLOBO]

not that you need it, but you have my support. its a shame that the action had to be taken.
regards
Glenn

[Imua Kuntao]

Sir, You have my support as well.

[Beungood]

It would seem that if both sides were bannded that both sections should equally be sanctioned. It doesn't seem fair to single one group out and let one stay. I agree with everyone being respectful.

[selfcritical]

Is it possible to have it viewable only in archived status? There was a lot of decent technical information on the PTK forums

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The section may be restored based on further actions. We are in the process of pruning some of the entries. I'm hoping that this will be taken care of shortly!

[tellner]

Good call, Tim. Painful, embarrassing and a shame, but it was the right thing to do.

[franci1911]

There is nothing wrong with the forum – I closed it down. This feud between Gaje and Tortal has gone on long enough here on FMAT. I don’t care who started what, I don’t care who the rightful heir is, I don’t even care who is a better martial artist. These juvenile activities are ending now. Since Mr. Gaje’s appearance here on FMAT, there have been more and more problems. Until further notice, I am closing the PTK section. I wanted to have as many arts as possible represented here. Unfortunately when people abuse the privilege, they lose it.
Just so everyone knows, I alone made this decision. The rest of my staff had nothing to do with it. So if somebody wants to blame anyone, I am the person. If people would like to make “productive” posts on the subject of PTK, please feel free to use the general section on the forum, until I feel it is time to open the forum back up. I have already suspended and banned people on both sides of the argument. I hope I will not be forced to add more people to that list. I know this decision may not be popular, but I am doing what I feel is best for FMATalk. If people choose to leave our site, I am sure there are sites out there that would be willing to put up with this kind of behavior.

Tim your discipline in poor at best. You have exhibited unmanly behavior. Good Call, that's a laugh. If Nene claims Dekiti Tirsia to be the family system formalized in the mid 1800's, how old is he any way? Why is his picture up there as well. You are a hipicrite and a bully.

We of Pekiti Tirsia don't care that you have removed our site. We are putting up one of our own where people can feel free to verbal spar at will. All you have to do is be able to back up what you say with fact.

So put up or shut up. I am sure to be banned I don't care. This forum is useless and a big waste of time. Anyone who has a mind of there own can't express it here.

You profess as a Datu, here in the Philippines , a Datu is brave, he leads, he is honorable, he is dignified and with prestige. As a Datu you should stand what is right and prove that what is false must be corrected.

On this issue you removed Pekiti-tirsia because we are right. You recognize Dekiti as if you know the history of this Nene Tortal. We have the facts to show that he never learn from his father neither he is qualified to say his Dekiti is Tortals system. You are responsible for this Gaje -tortal war because you promoted what is a lie and false , then we will include you. We don't make threats we do things right.

We see to it that what is wrong must be right and what is right will stand . You know you are around in some places in the US , we will be happy to meet you someday and we will have a good calisthenics.

[greg808]

Datu Hartman,

I realize this website is to promote the arts, rather to separate and promote differences. Don't worry what others say from the time I first met you I felt that you were a genuine person.

[Bob Hubbard]

Tim your discipline in poor at best. You have exhibited unmanly behavior. Good Call, that's a laugh. If Nene claims Dekiti Tirsia to be the family system formalized in the mid 1800's, how old is he any way? Why is his picture up there as well. You are a hipicrite and a bully.

We of Pekiti Tirsia don't care that you have removed our site. We are putting up one of our own where people can feel free to verbal spar at will. All you have to do is be able to back up what you say with fact.

So put up or shut up. I am sure to be banned I don't care. This forum is useless and a big waste of time. Anyone who has a mind of there own can't express it here.

You profess as a Datu, here in the Philippines , a Datu is brave, he leads, he is honorable, he is dignified and with prestige. As a Datu you should stand what is right and prove that what is false must be corrected.

On this issue you removed Pekiti-tirsia because we are right. You recognize Dekiti as if you know the history of this Nene Tortal. We have the facts to show that he never learn from his father neither he is qualified to say his Dekiti is Tortals system. You are responsible for this Gaje -tortal war because you promoted what is a lie and false , then we will include you. We don't make threats we do things right.

We see to it that what is wrong must be right and what is right will stand . You know you are around in some places in the US , we will be happy to meet you someday and we will have a good calisthenics.

I want to see if I understand this logic.

FMATalk is responsible for this war? Because after months of asking that hate filled rants not be posted, and that people not continually sling mud, finally getting fed up and shutting down the one single area of the site that was full of such disrespectful crap and removing it from view it's FMAT's fault?
Because you were asked not to post electronic feces it's classified as "This forum is useless and a big waste of time. Anyone who has a mind of there own can't express it here."

Right. If I wanted to be on a site where you could say -anything-, threaten, lie, defame and flat out scream like a moron, I'd hang out on rec.martial-arts or Bullshido. Not here.

Tim removed the PT section because HE was right, and you were acting a rude and disrespectful son of a bitch. A few people were, alot of leeway was given (more than I would have) and a few got vacations for going too far. This isn't an 'anarchy' based site. It has rules that need to be followed.

Regarding the whole "Pekita vs Dikita" thing, I really don't care. Really. I know a number of people on both sides who are embarrassed by all this ********. I don't care who is right/wrong/whatever, just that the noise drowns out the good information that's out there.

Now, regarding your last line, I read that as a threat. So, if you or any of your fanatics decide to aim it at me, let me clearly state that I know a great many law enforcement officers, have several in the family, and have -3- good lawyers at my immediate call. I don't want to "work out" with you, nor do I personally wish to do business with you, etc. So, don't bother me. Thanks.

[lhommedieu]

I think Tim has done the right thing with respect to the PTK forum, (and lest anyone believes that this means I am taking sides, please feel free to PM me. On the subject of PM's, please see below).

I would be happy to see the PTK forum back on FMATAlk - presumably when heads have cooled and people are willing to talk nicely to each other. When that happens is anyone's guess...

With respect to the conflicts between GT Leo Gaje and Greg Alland's organization, and...

GT Leo Gaje and Tuhon William McGrath
GT Leo Gaje and Nene Tortal
GT Leo Gaje and Chris Sayoc
GT Leo Gaje and Edgar Sulite
GT Leo Gaje and the Atienza brothers...

Either you understand the history behind these conflicts or you don't - but even if you do (or think you do): the art of diplomacy lies in what is not said in a public forum.

Sadly, many people posting on the PTK forum have no interest in diplomacy. I stopped reading most of the posts on the PTK forum months ago because, after reading and participating in a short exchange between some members, I realized that nothing is ever "proven" on an internet forum. The most active members appear to have already chosen sides for the sake of forcing people to choose sides, and no amount of rational argument is going to dissuade them from pressing their agendas. As for the rest of the forum: these are members who simply don't care or don't understand the issues about which others are arguing.

Perhaps the gold standard for discussion on a martial arts forum is that it should permit no political discussion whatsoever and be limited solely to discussions of concepts, fundamentals, and techniques. Political arguement could be limited to PM's, in which case the parties involved will soon realize that in order to get a response they ought to stop talking at people and start talking to them.

Perhaps the PTK forum could be "rebooted" in this fashion and we could see an increase in articles, pictures, and media that actually describes the martial art of PTK.

Or not. In that case forum readers interested in discussing PTK could migrate over to alt.discussion.martial_arts.

In either case, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of PTK practitioners around the world who are happily practicing their art without the benefit of getting to read the PTK forum. These practitioners could easily post examples of their practice to YouTube for the rest of us to enjoy (with the "comments" section disabled, of course).

Best,

Steve

[kaliace]

Wwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :)

[mikesf]

You forgot the part about telling your mom..




...So, if you or any of your fanatics decide to aim it at me, let me clearly state that I know a great many law enforcement officers, have several in the family, and have -3- good lawyers at my immediate call. I don't want to "work out" with you, nor do I personally wish to do business with you, etc. So, don't bother me. Thanks.


Mike, (fanatic!)

[mikesf]

I want to see if I understand this logic.
Tim removed the PT section because HE was right, and you were acting a rude and disrespectful son of a bitch.


You should watch your language Bob.

Actually you should apologize.


Mike S

[Bob Hubbard]

You forgot the part about telling your mom..
Mike, (fanatic!)

No, but reminding some that the law will be involved seems prudent, especially considering that some here will reach for blade or gun rather than use mind and common sense to resolve issues.


You should watch your language Bob.

Actually you should apologize.


Mike S

No. If those words are too harsh, then maybe there's a need to grow some thicker skin. If you have an issue with my words, push the little red triangle thing, lodge a complaint with the staff and they'll deal with me accordingly.

I'm done commenting on this crap.

[Ron Kosakowski]

As a business man myself within the martial art world, I find controvercy to be interesting and so does a lot of other people. The folks out there will get the word and flock to FMAT to see what it is all about. That will gain more you members. And it will get the forum talked about in the FMA world. The history of PTK and what really happened in the Tortel/Gaje family is important information and should be in a public forum. There is only so much to speak about on any martial art. This just adds to it. I understand that you do not want threats and keyboard warriors but debates really stir up excitement and should be kept here till there is a conclusion.

In every arguement, there is someone who is correct. This thread was closed down before there was any conclusion. I have not been on here prior to yesterday for a week or so...what is it that was said that got everyone heated up enough to close it down?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Let me say that in the future I hope the Pekiti Tirsia forum is restored and that heads cool off and more info on Pekiti Tirsia is brought to FMATalk!

[Datu Tim Hartman]

what is it that was said that got everyone heated up enough to close it down?
When people threaten each other with a .45, we have gone over the line!

[lhommedieu]

When people threaten each other with a .45, we have gone over the line!

Tim,

At least it was a "porty pive." Hard to imagine a serious threat on the forum from someone using a nine. Sorry - did I just start a flame war? Personally my choice would be Remington 700's at 1500 paces - but that's just me.

How 'bout ICBM's at 1500 miles? We could call it "The Kali Wars."

I hope you don't mind me making light of the situation but somebody has to. And you know my serious feelings on the matter from my PM's.

Looking forward to the day when the Pekiti Tirsia forum is up again.

Best,

Steve

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Looking forward to the day when the Pekiti Tirsia forum is up again.
We'll have to see how things go for the rest of this week.

[Raul]

I want the PTK forum be restored for whatever its worth. FMAT loses a lot of spice without the PTK guys.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I want the PTK forum be restored for whatever its worth. FMAT loses a lot of spice without the PTK guys.
As long as everyone realizes that this topic is not up to a vote.

[tellner]

Ron, there's a confounding factor. A lot of people will look. They'll see this stuff. A few who have never heard of Pekiti Tirsia may choose it because they recognize the name. Others will say "Oh, yeah, Pekiti Tirsia. Sounds like bunch of out of control losers." They will go somewhere else for their martial arts instruction.

My guess is that more people will go through door "B".

It's a shame, but that's how it is sometimes.

Lord knows that's happened with Silat in North America, particularly wherever it touches on a few prominent families.

[Raul]

As long as everyone realizes that this topic is not up to a vote.
I don't think anyone will miss the message. You've stressed that in more ways than one. I just feel that it should be heard and understood that several people and/or groups including those who had constant run-ins with the PTK clan would not be happy to shun a person/group/issue in this way. There are certain things in life that are nonnegotiable, this is not one of them.

[Imua Kuntao]

I dont understand why the ptk people think it is important to be here at these forums when they have their own web site and world wide site at that. Guro Uli I beleive runs that one. There is also all the pitbull sites. I can understand wanting to spread their art, that should happen with good will towards everyone.

[Jack Latorre]

Greetings—

During the absence of the Pekiti-Tirsia forum, a number of people on any number of forums have made comments making their distaste public for the political and personal disruptions concerning Pekiti-Tirsia.

Whether that particular forum continues is anyone’s guess but it is certain to factor in Mr. Hartman’s tolerance on his site and the conduct of its participants. In any event, the system of Pekiti-Tirsia will thrive or limp depending on the quality of its instructors. This quality will be based on how well they know the system, how well they apply the system, how they make that system digestible for others to learn and how well they promote the system (and to whom).

My concern here is that there is currently this environment in which someone may hear or read ‘Pekiti-Tirsia’ and readily dismiss the practitioner thereof. It bears keeping in mind that the system and the individual personalities involved are two separate entities, no matter what anyone may proclaim. The system is bigger than any one individual…if it is not, then the system perishes with that individual. At this point, it does not matter what version of the ‘truth’ you buy into regarding any one of the following conflicts whether it be:
Pekiti-Tirsia versus Dekiti-Tirsia
Pekiti-Tirsia versus Sayoc Kali/Atienza Kali
Kali versus Eskrima/Arnis
Mr. Gaje versus Mr. Tortal
…or any other point of discontent and disagreement. What matters on the ‘micro’ level is that Pekiti-Tirsia is a body dynamic superimposed on a strategy that is very recognizable that happens to work very well if you are an individual that is diligent enough to make it work.

What matters on the ‘macro’ level how this new generation of eskrimadors/arnisadors/kalistas/maharlikas inherit the martial legacies of those that proceeded them without the biases and anger of those very same predecessors. An example of this is my own father’s anger toward the Japanese for many, many years (my father was a guerilla during WWII who witnessed the invading Japanese soldiers murder inhabitants of his village). My father has every right to be hurt and angry by those occurrences. And I love and respect my family and my ancestors for what they have toiled and died for. But I cannot hold this generation of Japanese folk accountable for the acts of the Japanese back in the 1940’s. It was those individuals who did the actual murdering that I hold accountable. So as angry as my father is at times with things Japanese, I choose not to be angry with the Japanese person standing nest to me in line at the grocery store. In the recent occurrences, I would hope that those on the ’outside’ of the Pekiti-Tirsia realm understand how it impacting not just the system, but the whole of Filipino Martial Arts.

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Thus my hope for my martial heritage is that it not only survives, but that others will not be ‘turned off’ by it and miss out on what the Filipino culture (martial or not) has to offer.

Train well and hard.

Jack A. Latorre

[Imua Kuntao]

Mr. JackLatorre, hello. I see and understand what you say and I agree with you. I love the P.I. and its culture, and wouldn't want the same to look bad or leave a bad taste in someone's mouth. I also agree with Guro Inosanto, not everyone's way is the right way nor is every way the wrong way, just a different road. I would like to see peace and harmony, but it is up to the individual masters to practice such peace and harmony in order to pass it on to the students. I hope all will try to be more patient with each other and promote all the fma no matter who is who and who does what (jungle warrior/leo/just a guy).
Train hard and be at peace.

[Ron Kosakowski]

As a business man myself within the martial art world, I find controvercy to be interesting and so does a lot of other people. The folks out there will get the word and flock to FMAT to see what it is all about. That will gain more you members. And it will get the forum talked about in the FMA world. The history of PTK and what really happened in the Tortel/Gaje family is important information and should be in a public forum. There is only so much to speak about on any martial art. This just adds to it. I understand that you do not want threats and keyboard warriors but debates really stir up excitement and should be kept here till there is a conclusion.

In every arguement, there is someone who is correct. This thread was closed down before there was any conclusion. I have not been on here prior to yesterday for a week or so...what is it that was said that got everyone heated up enough to close it down?
I know a large percentage of the PTK folks from around the world. Most that I have met are pretty cool guys. All are willing to fight anyone as I see it. Its the nature of PTK and confidence in the technique of the style. Plus they laugh at my jokes...or maybe they are just humoring me!http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I did not read the thread in question so I did not see the 45 cal threat. You should have let it go to see if they would come back with a 50 cal, a bazuka (SP), an atom bomb and end it with nukes! Isn't that the same reason why they deleted Bugs Bunny cartoons from the TV?http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[wes tasker]

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.


Brilliant, just brilliant...

-wes tasker

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.
I don't think it could've been said any better!

[Rich Parsons]

Greetings—

During the absence of the Pekiti-Tirsia forum, a number of people on any number of forums have made comments making their distaste public for the political and personal disruptions concerning Pekiti-Tirsia.

Whether that particular forum continues is anyone’s guess but it is certain to factor in Mr. Hartman’s tolerance on his site and the conduct of its participants. In any event, the system of Pekiti-Tirsia will thrive or limp depending on the quality of its instructors. This quality will be based on how well they know the system, how well they apply the system, how they make that system digestible for others to learn and how well they promote the system (and to whom).

My concern here is that there is currently this environment in which someone may hear or read ‘Pekiti-Tirsia’ and readily dismiss the practitioner thereof. It bears keeping in mind that the system and the individual personalities involved are two separate entities, no matter what anyone may proclaim. The system is bigger than any one individual…if it is not, then the system perishes with that individual. At this point, it does not matter what version of the ‘truth’ you buy into regarding any one of the following conflicts whether it be:
Pekiti-Tirsia versus Dekiti-Tirsia
Pekiti-Tirsia versus Sayoc Kali/Atienza Kali
Kali versus Eskrima/Arnis
Mr. Gaje versus Mr. Tortal
…or any other point of discontent and disagreement. What matters on the ‘micro’ level is that Pekiti-Tirsia is a body dynamic superimposed on a strategy that is very recognizable that happens to work very well if you are an individual that is diligent enough to make it work.

What matters on the ‘macro’ level how this new generation of eskrimadors/arnisadors/kalistas/maharlikas inherit the martial legacies of those that proceeded them without the biases and anger of those very same predecessors. An example of this is my own father’s anger toward the Japanese for many, many years (my father was a guerilla during WWII who witnessed the invading Japanese soldiers murder inhabitants of his village). My father has every right to be hurt and angry by those occurrences. And I love and respect my family and my ancestors for what they have toiled and died for. But I cannot hold this generation of Japanese folk accountable for the acts of the Japanese back in the 1940’s. It was those individuals who did the actual murdering that I hold accountable. So as angry as my father is at times with things Japanese, I choose not to be angry with the Japanese person standing nest to me in line at the grocery store. In the recent occurrences, I would hope that those on the ’outside’ of the Pekiti-Tirsia realm understand how it impacting not just the system, but the whole of Filipino Martial Arts.

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Thus my hope for my martial heritage is that it not only survives, but that others will not be ‘turned off’ by it and miss out on what the Filipino culture (martial or not) has to offer.

Train well and hard.

Jack A. Latorre


Jack,

Thank you for these words at this time and place.

I still look forward to the next time we meet and talk.

Thanks and best regards

Rich

[rshawtx]

Jack, have you considered running for president? I hear there is an opening in November of this year. :) You've ellucidated the quintessential qualities of a true warrior-sage.

Now on to baser subject: Ron, you are precisely correct with the travesty inflicted upon Bugs Bunny... especially Yosemite Sam. I for one say, "Bring back the politically incorrect cartoons of yester-years."

[Brian R. VanCise]

Consider the opportunity for a sort of martial ‘Darwinism’ if you will. We all may have a martial practice we cherish and adhere to, so much so that we wish for it to survive another generation. That survival will not depend on the chest-beating of a practitioner. It will depend on that practitioner being a fighter (to demonstrate effectiveness), a scholar (to demonstrate knowledge), a teacher (to impart that knowledge in a meaningful way), and a diplomat (because fighting all of the time does not make us warriors…it makes us the kind of people we are training to protect ourselves from). The people that understand that will be the ones who leave a legacy that others can benefit from, both now and down the road.

Thus my hope for my martial heritage is that it not only survives, but that others will not be ‘turned off’ by it and miss out on what the Filipino culture (martial or not) has to offer.

Train well and hard.

Jack A. Latorre

Nice! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[bttcanada@videotron.ca]

This decision you made to ban Pekiti Tirsia smacks of cowardice. To be so afraid of an opinion that you would remove the whole section is laughable in the face of your relationship with Dekiti Tirsia.

As Jack said, "Martial Darwinism" will eventually win out. Most of the methods we see here will cease to exist in a generation and those that don't adapt will become amusing footnotes in our history.

Your ball, your game. I get it.

[tellner]

btt, I'm afraid you just don't get it. This isn't cowardice. It's Tim doing his duty by the forum. Moderators are supposed to moderate, and administrators are supposed to administer. That means that they have to require some reasonable minimum standard of behavior on the part of participants.

It doesn't have anything to do with who is better at stabbing or clubbing other people. It's about acting in a rational adult fashion.

Opinions are one thing. There have been some awfully weird ones on FMATalk that passed without comment. Threats involving large caliber handguns and knife fights out behind the barracks are another thing entirely.

Unless you're just throwing insults around and hoping one of them sticks calling Tim's response "cowardice" doesn't make any sense. The cowardly thing to do would have been to sit back, do nothing and allow the flame war to go on for fear of offending anyone.

[bttcanada@videotron.ca]

tellner,

Banning the whole section was a bit extreme. Not all of us spoke in extreme terminology.

Inviting Nene Tortal to his summer camp was also indicative of his having taken sides.

In our attempts to maintain a polite dialogue we have lost site of the facts in this matter.

[eugene johnson]

When I logged on, I was shocked to find that the entire Pekiti section was taken off. I saw that one of the reasons was the 'Dekiti vs. Pekiti thing'...if that was the case, it would be logical to ban both parties <both Dekti and Pekiti> ....or....... if there are individual people making inappropriate comments/threats get ban those individuals for life, not everyone else. I was wondering of all the individuals that post on the Pekiti site how many of them are making threats? (what percentage of people are the offenders?)...1&#37; ? 5%? 10%? ...even if its 40% how hard is it to ban those 40% and leave the site for the 60% to enjoy and use as a valuable training forum (because there is a lot of valuable training tips/info on the forum)

[arnisador]

We will likely return the section shortly; certainly, we'll return most of the threads. For now please use the General section for PTK discussion, which is always welcome!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[Bob Hubbard]

The facts of the matter:
Threats were issued, insults were hurled, lies were said, character was defamed, over a long stretch of time. Attempts to cool things failed, and drastic measures were taken. Additional threats and insults continue to come in from a section of the Pekiti crowd. Also, a great deal of 'thank yous' and understanding and support from all areas of the FMA.


My understanding is that the intent is to return the section. I believe Tim stated that here and elsewhere. Insulting him isn't going to help your case.

Shutting a section down when it gets too heated is something that is done, abet rarely, when it gets out of control.

As to "fairness" and why the Dekiti people weren't "equally" dealt with, the Dekiti group for the most part took the barrage of insults, threats and defamation in silence. They were dealt with fairly, IMO as they did little to contribute to the problem on this site.

It's also not "taking sides" to host someone at a camp. There have been a number of individuals in the FMA who have been invited in the last, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the door had also been open to Mr. Gaje as well. Tim likes to share the wealth of knowledge and skill in the FMA world with his organization, and help people out. For that, he's often crapped on in some cases by the very people he tried to help. That's the part that bugs me. The ingratitude.

This is a free forum. None of the staff are Pekiti, yet a section was provided free of charge to allow all PT to discuss their art. The same consideration was offered to the art of Balintawak, Doce Pares, JKD-Kali, Kali Ilustrisimo, Kombatan, Lameco, Lightning Scientific Arnis, Modern Arnis, Pedoy's Derobio Escrima, Sikaran, Serrada, and both Dekiti and Pikiti.

Many FMA styles outside what the staff here does. The only section that's been a problem has been the Pekiti one. All offered free of charge, though there is an optional supporting membership to help share the costs.

The other thing is, a forum is what the members make of it. If you discuss the art and the history and the techniques in great depth, you build a great place. If you play politics and insult and toss around piles of crap, you build a great compost heap. That's great if you farm, but not if you study.

Every member here, myself included, is a guest, and guests have responsibilities. One of those is simple "Don't insult your host".
There is also "Don't piss in the pool/punchbowl".

I personally, would like to see the Pekiti section back. But I don't get a vote, this isn't a democracy. In the end, it's Tims call, and people insulting him isn't going to do anything but keep it gone. Why would anyone create a home for vocal ingrates? They, who we know are the minority, only ruin it for the rest.So, be angry, but I'd suggest shutting up and not hurting your own cause. Friendly advice. I suggest it's taken. Then, the section and it's great information will probably be back.

[PeteNerd]

tellner,

Banning the whole section was a bit extreme. Not all of us spoke in extreme terminology.

Inviting Nene Tortal to his summer camp was also indicative of his having taken sides.

In our attempts to maintain a polite dialogue we have lost site of the facts in this matter.

I think you bring up an excellent point. Some of the more vocal and threatening points have sort of white washed over the fact that some interesting discussions and criticisms were made.

The one point that I am interested to discuss is if anyone actually believes that an unarmed person can disarm someone with a ginunting?

Thanks,

Pete

[Brock]

My take on it is that the reason the Dekiti section is still up is because there was only one or two threads relative to this debate that were inflamitory, those threads have been removed, and I belive the people involved banned or suspended. The Pekiti section however had several of these types of threads, and as the moderators have said their intention is to bring the section back, but with the inflamitory threads/post removed and that is going to take quite a bit of time. The unfortunate part of the whole thing is, as has been brought up, the actions of a few have resulted in a pain in the rear (and a loss of what I found to be an interesting section of this site however temporary that loss) for many.

Sooo anywho, I'm all about debating the disarm thing Pete. Why don't you slide that question on over to the General section and I'll give you my take on that when I get home from work tonight.... 12 hour shift today....

[Twist]

I personally, would like to see the Pekiti section back.

Honestly? Why... it wasnt worth checking the section for a long time now. No more threads on technical questions or the pekiti tirsia organisation - all you got was a new, revised version of FMA-history.

- And it really saddens me to say so 'cause I still think its a great system, however some of its ppl. behave.

Anyway, there are several websites online where you can find great informations on PTK without the political crap... so I dont know if its worth supporting the latter by giving it a home here on FMAT. (But thats only me...)

[Bob Hubbard]

Honestly? Why... it wasnt worth checking the section for a long time now. No more threads on technical questions or the pekiti tirsia organisation - all you got was a new, revised version of FMA-history.

- And it really saddens me to say so 'cause I still think its a great system, however some of its ppl. behave.

Anyway, there are several websites online where you can find great informations on PTK without the political crap... so I dont know if its worth supporting the latter by giving it a home here on FMAT. (But thats only me...)
Because, as I said, it could be a solid resource to the community, if the community chooses to make it such.

[arnisador]

I split several posts off into this thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=4034) on unarmed defense against a blade.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[Ron Kosakowski]

By the way, where did you guys see sword disarming?

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

This is probably off the topic of the two systems mentioned above, but the late GREAT LEGENDARY Tatang ilustrisimo can be seen doing bladed disarms assisted by GM Sioc Delarga (sp?) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnx0NHnekQ


But then again, its just a demonstration... However if I could choose anyone to do live blade disarms, I'd put all my money on Tatang!

C.

(Admin: if you think this belongs in the other thread mentioned earlier please by all means change it..) thanks!

[Raul]

Thats Mr. Sioc Glariaga of Kalaki Arnis. I spell his name the way I usually see it spelled from other forums.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Thank you for correcting me. My apologies!

[Ron Kosakowski]

This is probably off the topic of the two systems mentioned above, but the late GREAT LEGENDARY Tatang ilustrisimo can be seen doing bladed disarms assisted by GM Sioc Delarga (sp?) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnx0NHnekQ


But then again, its just a demonstration... However if I could choose anyone to do live blade disarms, I'd put all my money on Tatang!

C.

(Admin: if you think this belongs in the other thread mentioned earlier please by all means change it..) thanks!
I can see that as being situational...if it fell into your lap it can be possible. In a scamble for a bladed weapon at full speed I can see some mighty unorthodox informally taught techniques will pop out of no where. If not, your blood will pop out of everywhere! ;)

[Raul]

deja vu or gone for good?