Piper System.

[arnisador]

I don't know this method! I need an English version of the website.

I keep hearing about South African systems, most notably Piper (http://www.pipersystem.com/).

[grapp81]

it would be very interesting know more about this "piper" system...

[arnisador]

There's been talk of it on Eskrima Digest, for example.

[arnisador]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhpAsE8z6JI&NR

Looks to be big on distracting and controlling with the empty hand. From here (http://www.pipersystem.com/):


Piper is chaos, with a blade. Unpredictable constant motion means your enemy has trouble pinning you down. Being difficult to pin you down visually, it becomes extremely difficult to do so physically.

[silat1]

Don't rely on the videos that are on the piper website.. I suggest that you contact Lloyd and Nigel who are the moderators on the piper website for any questions that you have concerning the system.. When I was stateside, I had the opportunity to experience a little of the south african knife by a close acquaintance who lived in that region for a couple of years.. It is a system that I was really glad to get the introduction, but at no means am I an instructor of this system.. I would defer all questions to the above individuals if you really want a good understanding ( as much as you can get via keyboard Communications from active practitioners and guardians of the system..

Just my .02 Pesos

Bill
Defensive Tactics Guam

[arnisador]

I copied these posts from another thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=776).

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[arnisador]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QhpAsE8z6JI&feature=related

[tellner]

I've had a small amount of exposure to the system via Mushtaq Ali. It uses rhythm and time in ways which I have not seen in anything except other African or Afro-Latin traditions. It's not a self-defense system. It's a method for taking someone apart with a knife and could more properly be called a knife-assault system.

A lot of people whose opinion I deeply respect say that it throws a real monkeywrench into almost all of the knife defense they know. Their experience spans an awful lot of the best stuff out there in the South, Southeast and East Asian martial arts. It may not be the Unholy Ichor of Great Cthulhu, but it's worth taking a close look at. There's a lot of very worthwhile stuff there. A lot of White guys will have trouble with it. Most of us have no rhythm. And most of the rest are afraid that if we actually move our hips other guys will think we're homosexual :)

[arnisador]

Throwing both hands at you at once, split high-and-low, when they've been changing hands has got to be very confusing. You'd almost have to mirror them and try to defend both at once until you knew where the blade was.

Defending unarmed against a knife is always a long shot, and this seems designed to reduce those odds yet again.

[sneaky]

Howdy,

I have spoken with the guys at the piper website and I believe the system to be an effective assultive method which after all is how an attacker will come after you.

The key to dealing with any system like this is simple ...dont be there!!!

Awareness and street smarts are king, But.. if assulted in the manner of the piper system the best I think you could do is to close in hard under a defensive structure based cover(if empty handed) and try to control the weapon arm/hand , wrap it up and take them down , trying to mirror their movement wont get you too far, crash in wrap the arm/hand and follow up.

At the end of the day all the distraction stuff only matters to a point, if they want to cut or stab you they have to extend the arm or step in, just like any other system out there, human movement is universal, no matter if you are black , white or orange etc

Look at Jerry wetzels work here or Ray floros, the dog brothers "die less often" dvd may help here also.

ATB,

Jim

[Raul]

all the distraction stuff only matters to a point, if they want to cut or stab you they have to extend the arm or step in, just like any other system out there
Indeed.

[arnisador]

I have spoken with the guys at the piper website and I believe the system to be an effective assultive method

Yes, I haven't seen much about defense from it yet...but them the best defense can be a good offense!

[PG Michael B]

The key to dealing with any system like this is simple ...dont be there!!!
I do not view it as dealing with a system. Your dealing with an individual or individuals. System be damned. We all bleed and we all can be got. To program oneself to beat a system is IMHO placing yourself deep behind the 8-Ball. There are top notch players who are king in training but when the blood starts to fly and the screaming starts they fall apart like school girls at a Jonas Brothers concert! Where is the system then? No Where! And YES...Not being there is KEY!



Awareness and street smarts are king, But.. if assulted in the manner of the piper system the best I think you could do is to close in hard under a defensive structure based cover(if empty handed) and try to control the weapon arm/hand , wrap it up and take them down , trying to mirror their movement wont get you too far, crash in wrap the arm/hand and follow up.
Agreed...but theory is just that, theory until put to the test under fire. If assaulted in this manner I would be under the guise that your soon to be toast. I think a lot of people see assaults as this mono y mono duel entity. If someone gets to you with a knife in any manner your chances of doing much are slim and none. My suggest would be to create distance, somehow. Having survived a brutal blade attack I can testify that it just doesn't go down like a lot of people think. Crashing in becomes hard when your cut up, or in my case have a lung punctured. Wrapping anything up or following up is extremely hard when you can't breath, panic is setting in, there is blood everywhere and the goblins of disorientation are creeping through your mind.


At the end of the day all the distraction stuff only matters to a point, if they want to cut or stab you they have to extend the arm or step in, just like any other system out there, human movement is universal, no matter if you are black , white or orange etc
True....but I do not believe Piper is a dueling system where you can react to action. Having talked to the South African lads they led me to believe that it is a pure ambush system. And when one is ambushed it doesn't matter what extends, or how one steps in. Your under fire NOW, your hurt NOW, your bleeding NOW..etc.etc.etc...In this setting so many things are jerking the stimuli....unless one is superman things can go south quickly. In my case I was fortunate that there were other bouncers around to subdue (another word for crushing) the assailant and stop him from inflicting further damage.

A knife is an ambush weapon folks...and I firmly believe that PIPER is designed as such. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that AMBUSH is the preferred method of operandi when it comes to blades!

[Fan the Madman]

Yes, I haven't seen much about defense from it yet...but them the best defense can be a good offense!

Well if you want to learn to run really fast then it would be best to get seriously scared as h*ll. I know something like Piper is the sort of nightmare I want a shotgun, some distance and some decent cover if I'm going to try and handle it.

I'm sure the Piper guys are very nice and all (most serious MA types are good dudes).. but their movements scare the whiz out of me :D

Survey says BRING GUNS.. LOTS OF GUNS.

[PG Michael B]

Fan I agree...when in doubt, get your pistol out. lolol

[lhommedieu]

Just to echo some of the points already made:

I seem to recall that in one of the earliest descriptions of Piper that I read a South African police officer was quoted as saying that basically, "there is no defense - we just shoot them." If, on any given day, you're genuinely worried about whether or not some faceless stranger is going to eat you for lunch ("Hmm, I guess my chances are about 50/50 today..."), you're probably carrying a carbine and walking around with like-minded friends. For the rest of us that live in the normal world, a modicum of common sense is about where to be and who to be with is about all we can count on.

I like what I've seen of Piper but let's face it, there are several knife cultures that figured out a long time ago how to ambush an unarmed innocent with a knife - and they're generally no better or worse than another in terms of how they slice and dice you.

Here's a thought exercise: what if I came up with an amazingly efficient and hitherto unknown "system" of "gun fighting" wherein I walked up to unaware people and just shot them in the face? Are you going to find a way to deal with my "system" or learn how to recognize me for the psychotic that I am? Rather than engaging me it's probably better to keep your distance behind a longer barrel.

I just thought of a slogan for the above: "Superior knife fighters create superior gun fighters."

O.K. - out of the arm chair, gotta go to work...

Best,

Steve

[Navadisha]

Just to clarify, the Piper guys created the system as a way to codify and expose other people to what is out there that they might encounter.
They were aware of it and scared as hell.
But they decided to study it instead of ignore it.

[arnisador]

Just to clarify, the Piper guys created the system as a way to codify and expose other people to what is out there that they might encounter.
They were aware of it and scared as hell.
But they decided to study it instead of ignore it.

That makes sense! Still, I agree that if someone is dead-set on ambushing you with a knife and you can't stay away from them, you're in a bad situation.

[William]

Very true, an that’s the issue. The majority of knife attacks happen in that manner. From the outside it may appear to be an ambush and kill based system, but I would bet there’s a bit more to it. Try to learn blade from a purely defensive stand point and you’re only learning one side of the coin. Imo, it’s tough to understand what you’re dealing with from that mind set. In order to have a better chance to effectively counter a bladed attack, you also have to understand the offensive side and mindset (and even then there are no certainties). One instructor I had exposure to had been incarcerated and worked with us on some of the tactics and situational mind set of that environment. It wasn‘t pretty and consisted mainly of various ways to ambush and pump. It was a good to experience and the material really made you think about some of the tactics and perceptions of blade work that I’ve been exposed to past and present.

Let’s face it, the FMA’s are blade based. And I have seen time and again where people from outside our circle think we’re psychos working with blades just training to kill people. If you honestly look at the principles and techniques, much of it is based on maiming and/or ending it. Of course the majority of us never really want to go there, but train for the “what ifs” in life. To me, training in such a system would be good to understand the mechanics, principles and mindset to incorporate….if god forbid….I ever needed to, but more so to better understand ways of countering such attacks. In short, to better my percentage for survival.

Oh, and I agree on taking a gun to a knife fight…….but you have to know there’s a knife fight in the first place. ;)




Best regards,
William

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

I always go back to Ned Nepangue's article when thinking about this:


The Other Reality of Knifefighting

This was originally written for the Rapid Journal, the only Journal/magazine on martial arts available in the Philippines today. (see www.rapidjournal.com)

Again, let us talk about knifefighting, considered to be the "backbone of Filipino Martial Arts"

In knifefighting, some emphasize the science of handling and they tell us what works in the streets, in the dark blind alleys and even in the modern battle fields. So there are knife drills, techniques, here and there.

Others would show the art of handling the same blade, mesmerizing us the way they handle the balisong or the artistic way of diverting the supposed opponent’s blade from side to side.


Likely, all these scientists and artists of the knives, impress us almost all the time.

Lately, I met this veteran knifer. He is neither the familiar scientist nor artist we often see in the gym. He is no black belter, not a sifu, and not a guro. He is not from Shaolin but from the Maximum Compound of the New Bilibid Prison. This former bosyo of the Batang Cebu (BC .45) gang is a cold killer since age twelve and already had facilitated seventy-seven souls out from this physical realm of existence, most of them by knifing, while he was behind bars.

Shem Jakosalem is his name and both of us are currently working on “Shem’s Paradigm” a book about his past experience. This book is written not to glorify all these “blade-happy” killers but to learn things from them. There is no substitute for experience. Hopefully this will be available either late this year or early next year.

After my initial chat with him, I realized that there are things that many of us in the martial arts missed. No wonder many high-ranked martial arts enthusiasts were/are killed in the street by people who never set foot in any of these so-called dojos.

“So Shem what’s your favorite way of stabbing?”


“Well, I stab them while grabbing their arms or sleeves.”

So where’s the impressive technique there, I asked myself. It took me few minutes to realize how profound his words were.

Grabbing while stabbing, huh? I never thought of that. Why? Perhaps, because most of the techniques I saw usually happen between two people squarely facing each other where the person with a knife “innocently” just thrust the knife forward’

Yes, what if somebody with a knife grabs your sleeve and simultaneously inserts the knife to your side, not just once or twice but more, before you can say abracadabra? Shem said, “Knife attack is so sudden. Once you noticed you’re punctured, it is already late.” This proves that the hands are faster than the eyes.

Martial artists would likely talk among themselves, their awesome techniques of knife handling and defense. The discussion may include, among other things, the flow, speed, counter-to-counter, the live/checking hand, de-fanging the snake, disarms, knife interactive drills, etc.

The knifers like Shem, on the other hand, seldom talk about the procedures . . . since they are more concern instead, on killing with a knife. In the prison they don’t talk about theories of knife fighting; they simply don’t even have the luxury to rehearse. The moment one stepped in, “it’s show time!”

Both the martial artists and the knifers like Shem consider realism, of course, but the emphasis differs.


Many of the contemporary martial arts are “sanitized” so much so that the “original” concept/intent of hurting, maiming or even killing, and the defense against these are no longer there. Since the emphasis nowadays is defense, the knowledge of correct and precise hitting are almost forgotten. Training partners thrust their knives forward as if giving alms to a pauper. Now, how can one expect to execute a realistic knife defense with that? A lousy delivery or uncontrolled way of the knife attack during practice session can be deleterious.

Another real fact I extracted from Shem, “Many times I got cut in my palms or fingers when I stabbed, especially when I hit a hard par. That’s why we wrapped cloths around the hand.”

The chest cavity is partly protected by the ribs and when one hits this bony part, the hand may slide forward and get wounded, so the experienced knifers’ advice is to position the blade horizontally relative to these bones for easy penetration. Part of the palm is also used by some knifers to push the knife forward.

This article is sort of a reminder that the real truth about knifefighting is not about learning the beauty of techniques but about survival.

It's interesting to note how many styles practice from "open" range at a pre-determined signal.

Guns laws vary from country to country. If you travel by air it is likely you will not be able to take a gun with you.

Knives (and things like broken bottles / beer glasses) are everywhere.

[William]

Thanks for posting that.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but in the vein of Eskrimakaliarnis's post, this is one I posted a number of years ago on another forum that touches on the same point.



William

Open Eyes

I still come across people with the flippant attitude that defending against a blade is as easy as just kicking it out of someone's hand. I'll always remember the TKD instructor who proudly claimed that his 15 yr. olds could accurately kick a knife out of the hand as a realistic reliable defense. This type of attitude is the very reason that I started this thread in the first place. People who think that dealing with a blade is so easy, or just a matter of doing technique A, B, or C. You have no margin for error in going against a bladed attack. The bottom line is that you have to train the best you can, as realistically as possible to increase your %'s of successfully countering an attack. There are no certainties.

One thing that really helped open my eyes a long time ago was seeing a Coroners book that had hundreds of pictures of people that had been killed with different types of edged weapons/tools. Seeing what a sharp implement, even a small knife, can do to the human body is an eye opener. Slashing attacks can be gruesome and open up ghastly wounds immediately. Thrusts often just look like little slits, but do major damage internally.

When I come across this type of attitude, I'll casually ask them if they want to try kicking the blade from my hand. I'll start out with my blade hand forward and let them try. Of course I don't just hold it still out there for them to target, I use my footwork to move, feint, and gain angle on them all the while keeping my blade moving in changing patterns. At first I'll just stay outside and try to get them to kick. Every kick that comes into my range is either slashed our stuck with a thrust. After I have tenderized the leg a bit, I'll move in behind a kick and close to finish. Sometimes I'll get the response, "well, you know how to use a knife, the average person doesn't". To which I say; "Ok, this time I'll attack in the way that you'll most likely encounter out in the real world". Then when they turn to go back on the floor I run up behind them and "shank" them a bunch of times on the back and sides of the body or neck. Not scientific, but a knife attack your most likely to encounter. This usually throws them off and they start thinking that I'm crazier than I really am...almost. After they have re-gained their composure, I'll also show them that not all knife attacks come with the blade held out front. We will go again and this time I have my live hand forward and the blade to the rear and close to my body. This doesn't present a weapon for you to target or to immediately try to gain control of. You have to get past my live hand which will be sweeping, grabbing, trapping, gouging, or eye jabbing as I enter to distract and/or clear the way for my blade to come pumping in. My point is that I want them to start looking at the knife in a more realistic manner. Not just some innocuous implement that they think is so easy to knock out of an attackers hand.I pulled this (blade to the rear...training blade) on a traditional martial arts BB co-worker a few years ago. He was so fixed on the blade that I just reached up and put my live hand in front of his face blocking his vision, and then hit the vitals.

Again, the point is not to demoralize them, but to get them to start thinking realistically about facing bladed weapons.

[tim_stl]

can someone explain to me why an 'ambush system' like piper has so many snaps, stomps, slaps, and rhythmic arm and body movements that draw so much attention?



tim

[PG Michael B]

Easy Tim..it's cool. LOL..I believe at the heart of Piper lies the ambush. With that being said when people codify a system or movements from said system they will naturally gear it differently. Perhaps the rhythmic movements come more from personal expression as opposed to what the crux of the sytstem intended. I would think they, the Piper lads would have a better breakdown of it.


www.seamok.com

[tim_stl]

didn't mean to sound derogatory with my post, it was an honest question.



tim

[William]

can someone explain to me why an 'ambush system' like piper has so many snaps, stomps, slaps, and rhythmic arm and body movements that draw so much attention?



tim


I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about the system will respond, but in the meantime, I'll throw a bone out there....

My thought is that by the time those "attention grabbing" movements are evident, you've already been hit multiple times. They won't be doing that before the attack, but during (if at all).
As far as bystanders...if someone is attacking you in public like that....

A.) They don't give a rats ass if people notice.

B.) The victim's reaction/screaming will give the situation away anyway.


Just my $.02....worth what you paid for it. :)




William

[Worm Dirt]

Taken from the Piper website:

"What makes Piper so dangerous?
Always, its level of intent coupled with its unpredictable nature. It is a study of a killing method. You’d have to be exposed to our criminal element to fully understand the mentality behind it. This thing is battle-tested. Think about this - the Filipino Islands have roughly twice our population, but only about an 8th of our violent crime rate."

First of all, if I did study this "system"... and did use a knife to "defend" myself I sure wouldn't want THIS to come up in the civil litigation or criminal proceedings that followed.

I guess our American criminals aren't "violent" enough to gain an understanding of the rather simplistic act of shoving something sharp into another human being until they stop breathing and no longer have a pulse? I can reference some neighborhoods that would likely dispel that pretty quickly.

"Is Piper different to the Filipino Martial Arts knife concepts?
Yes. There are extensive differences. It would be dangerous to attempt most of the things that one finds commonly within the Filipino systems (parries and knife stripping are out). Most of what one would learn in FMA does not appear at all in Piper. Piper is also not a historical legacy, it is today’s reality."

I personally find this amusing as the youtube video Arnisador so kindly provided http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA looks a lot like Filipino knife method to me.

"we model a bona-fide bad guy and provide the ’enemy’ side of the equation to test yourself against."

And all "bad guys" are going to follow this particular method? "Every" time?

"We were tired of being mugged - and didn’t want to be stabbed."

So how many times "have" they been stabbed? How many times has this "method" of ambush based knife killing been proven as an adequate defense against those evil knifers pacing the streets?

Conclusively, I don't much appreciate seeing Filipino martial arts degraded as part of a marketing scheme. Let's face it, having that system with it's self proclaimed killing methology in any way attached to YOUR name is legal suicide once the lawyers go to work on you. And to TEACH that system screams liability. At least here in the Obama nation where you can get sued for serving hot coffee without a warning label.

Furthermore, the system or "method" is not relevant. The practitioner makes the art. Not the other way around.

[eskrimakaliarnis.com]

I find it dangerous to make sweeping comments about these kind of things.

"Is Piper Different to FMA"

All FMA's have similarities and differences. There is nothing new here just two people and a knife. South African, Filipino, Eskimo....

Unless you've studied ALL FMA (an impossibility) you can't make that kind of generalization.

Having said that I did enjoy the vids and the movements shown. I hope the group continues to prosper.

Simon.

[William]

Just a couple of points....

The fact that one trains in any martial art, especially a weapons based art like the FMA's is going to allow a lawyer to have a field day if they want to go after you. That's not just reserved to this particular system. As an aside, there is an instructor here in the states who created a system out of a couple of different FMA systems who uses terms to describe the partitioners and the system that a lawyer would have a fun time presenting to a jury. We all train hoping to avoid serious confrontation, but if god forbid we ever do, litigation is a real possibility to follow. Unless you can hide all the training you've had, a lawyer trying to work you over is possible no matter what you've trained in....but I can admit the description of the system would make their work easier.

From what little I've seen of their movements, I see similarities to FMA, but I also see some differences in the originators movements....subtle, but present.

I'm not saying it's better or worse than anything else out there, but I see some differences that should be taken into account when thinking about having to deal with that style of attack.


FWIW,
William

[Navadisha]

I personally find this amusing as the youtube video Arnisador so kindly provided http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA) looks a lot like Filipino knife method to me.


Thas not a Piper guy.

[Worm Dirt]

Having said that I did enjoy the vids and the movements shown.



I too enjoy anything I can find that is blade based and that isn't outright garbage. I personally believe that there is something useful that can be taken from all legitimate systems or schools.

[silat1]

I personally find this amusing as the youtube video Arnisador so kindly provided http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA) looks a lot like Filipino knife method to me.


Thas not a Piper guy.

Oh C'mon

We both know that this piper or south african knife system came from the same source of people that you and I trained with. :sword2:

Bill

[pinoyronin]

After seeing what the piper guys do or looking at any attacks, ambushes with bladed weapons it makes you rethink what could you really do in that moment of chaos. You have a lot of viewpoints out there that we all have looked at.

At times i feel one has to wipe the slate clean and re look at things.

[Worm Dirt]

Oh C'mon

We both know that this piper or south african knife system came from the same source of people that you and I trained with. :sword2:

Bill

Got any videos? I'd love to see the real thing.

[Fan the Madman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPJ65araum4

Some video from a Piper Seminar held recently in San Diego.

[arnisador]

Interesting, thanks! Definitely looks like a "firstest with the mostest" approach.

[Fan the Madman]

That evaluation is consistent with the information in the Piper ebook. And in all honesty I think there is alot to be said for knowing a bit about "just how bad it could be". Does that yield the ability to defend against it? I don't think so.. but it certainly gives even more incentive to AVOID a determined knife attack, just in case we need more incentive haha.

I have to say the one possible direct use I can think of for this system is a situation where the in-close predator has a gun, is about to draw it, and has lethal intent. But really that's the only plausible scenario I can imagine where this kind of methodical insanity has any ethical use likely in the modern world, other than learning it for cautionary/educational purposes.

[geezer]

I personally find this amusing as the youtube video Arnisador so kindly provided http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA (http://youtube.com/watch?v=L54s2fUDfVA) looks a lot like Filipino knife method to me.
Thas not a Piper guy.

No that's Bobbe Edmonds -- he used to post on here a lot. Definitely an FMA background with some Piper added in? Heck, don't ask me. I find knives pretty damned scary to start with... and that last Piper clip from San Diego was insane.

[EliasPFS]

No that's Bobbe Edmonds -- he used to post on here a lot. Definitely an FMA background with some Piper added in? Heck, don't ask me. I find knives pretty damned scary to start with... and that last Piper clip from San Diego was insane.

the guys that hosted it Librefighting, alslo do some scary knife work.

[PG Michael B]

The Piper lads are good blokes..I speak with them ever so often.Good humble folk. IMHO anyone wielding a knife for killing is scarey . .skilled or not, and in most cases unskilled and demented is the spookiest. That's why God invented S& W . .LOL . . having been on the bad end of 2 knife altercations I cand efintiely respect that blade in any hand . skilled or not!