What is in Pekiti-Tirsia Kali System

[GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje Jr]

I was asked many times what differentiates Pekiti-Tirsia compared to the other FMA.

First, Pekiti-Tirsia cannot be qualifed as a Martial Arts as presented among the family of FMA. Martial Arts is an art where all the techniques and training discipline is structured for sports. There is no institution of discipline directed to condition the mental faculties for combative application that will terminate the opposition or the enemy.

Secondly, Pekiti-Tirsia is a fighting system that from the beginning of the training , the emphasis on the Philosophy, Culture, Traditions and customs and ideology that cleanses the mental blocks caused by non-weaponry thinking ways. All structure of training is Strategic and Tactically design for combat with the ultimate direction to destroy the enemy leaving no chances for the enemy to survive.


Thirdly, Pekiti-tirsia methods and techniques is ancient but prepared for the modern times with the life of the past.The techniques of Pekiti-Tirsia were put into the laboratory , tested and proven effective. It cost lots of lives to perfect one technique.

Fourthly, Pekiti-Tirsia methodology is non-coventional, unorhodox, non-regimented. Techniques are prepared against all flags, against anybody, against any forms of fighting. Regardless of style or forms of martial arts, Pekiti-Tirsia principles of non-counterablity is a form of mastery.

Fithly, Pekiti-Tirsia discipline of Perfection is highly demanding,highly stressfull, highly design to eliminate the unfit,structured to allow a survivalist secured against all conditions.

Sixthly, Pekiti-Tirsia Higher Education is a continuing education, the more time spent with Pekiti-Tirsia , the more things to learn as good as brand new as it was in the beginning.Learning materials are pulled from the storage of wisdom that an intelligent method of teaching , will lead to intelligent student.

Seventhly, Pekiti-Tirsia ladder of ascension to greater heights of Mastery brings the Mastery on TRI-V Formula, Capsula Methodica, Lima -Lima mayor and minor then to the top of Pekadum Trigo.In between , the application of Contra Tirsia Dubla Doz takes preference to confuse the enemy that makes all techniques furious, sharper and deadly.

Eightly,Pekiti-Tirsia highest form of Metaphysical practices commands the power of the mind, above all things may happened physically is unequalled metaphysically.The final solution in any fight, he who controls the fight wins.

Pekiti-Tirsia is a unique sytem, it understands the enemys movements, control the situation , each move of the enemy's weapon is calculated accurately driven to the right angle within the comfort of Pekiti-Tirsia man of war using the Principles of Geometrical Equation.

[GLENNLOBO]

you say "First, Pekiti-Tirsia cannot be qualifed as a Martial Arts as presented among the family of FMA. Martial Arts is an art where all the techniques and training discipline is structured for sports. There is no institution of discipline directed to condition the mental faculties for combative application that will terminate the opposition or the enemy." my understanding of the term martial arts is that they are arts of war, Mars being the god of war. so the concept of martial arts only being structured for sport is alien to me. are you saying therefore that PT is the only combat efective FMA?if PT is not a martial art, what is it?

"All structure of training is Strategic and Tactically design for combat with the ultimate direction to destroy the enemy leaving no chances for the enemy to survive." can you differentiate strategically and tactically in terms of this combat art?

"Regardless of style or forms of martial arts, Pekiti-Tirsia principles of non-counterablity is a form of mastery." are you saying that PT cannot be countered? what is it that makes it so effective what is its defining quality? so PT has faced and dealt with every martial art and has answers to all the questions they might ask? how is this possible? are there principles that have cross application? what are they?

"Seventhly, Pekiti-Tirsia ladder of ascension to greater heights of Mastery brings the Mastery on TRI-V Formula, Capsula Methodica, Lima -Lima mayor and minor then to the top of Pekadum Trigo.In between , the application of Contra Tirsia Dubla Doz takes preference to confuse the enemy that makes all techniques furious, sharper and deadly."what are these?

"Pekiti-Tirsia highest form of Metaphysical practices commands the power of the mind, above all things may happened physically is unequalled metaphysically."what metaphysically do you do to control your mind? or can you control someone else with your mind?

"driven .......using the Principles of Geometrical Equation." can you elucidate further? i find this quite vague and i would like to understand more of what could be a fascinating subject.

Many thanks

[pguinto]

"driven .......using the Principles of Geometrical Equation." can you elucidate further? i find this quite vague and i would like to understand more of what could be a fascinating subject.
please pardon my presumptuousness, but is it possible he is refering to the importance of the Golden ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio) and its relatedness to Fibonacci numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_Sequence#Origins))


Other names frequently used for or closely related to the golden ratio are golden section (Latin: sectio aurea), golden mean, golden number, and the Greek letter phi (http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/5/3/3538eb9c84efdcbd130c4c953781cfdb.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi_%28letter%29)). Other terms encountered include extreme and mean ratio, medial section, divine proportion (Italian: proporzione divina), divine section (Latin: sectio divina), golden proportion, golden cut, and mean of Phidias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phidias).i cant help but think all this stuff is related to the fmas in principle. i guess im just a geek after all. :)

[Banakun]

Based on the original question (What makes PTK DIFFERENT from other FMAs) and by way of implication, are you saying that ALL other FMA styles/systems are useless and crap GT?

Please do clarify. Maraming salamat po.

Gumagalang...

[franci1911]

Based on the original question (What makes PTK DIFFERENT from other FMAs) and by way of implication, are you saying that ALL other FMA styles/systems are useless and crap GT?

Please do clarify. Maraming salamat po.

Gumagalang...

First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

That means that through FMA you must have the Philosophy, Culture, Traditions, Customs and Idealogy. Then if you mix the Filipino Art as a Martial Arts and not as a Fighting Art, then judge what you think of the True Philippine Art as a fighting system.

One of the mixtures of the Arnis/Eskrima is the blocking system, disarming and most of all grabbing the sticks that leads to grabbing the blade. In Pekiti Tirsia we do not grab the weapon, we don't grab the sticks. We just cut the wrist, the arm, the legs, and when possible we take a Kilo of shoulders and possibly the neck.

That is the true art.

[viejo]

[quote=franci1911;23627]First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

In other words Pekiti is the only 100% pure Pilipino martial art...with nothing else in the art like Silat or other MA ??

[GLENNLOBO]

please pardon my presumptuousness, but is it possible he is refering to the importance of the Golden ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio) and its relatedness to Fibonacci numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_Sequence#Origins))

i cant help but think all this stuff is related to the fmas in principle. i guess im just a geek after all. :)
how are fibonnacci ratios/ numbers related to FMA's?

First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

so in training with Dan inosanto, and Suryadi Jafri to name but
2, he has not gleaned any useful techniques from them that may have inadvertently or consciously been included into PTK, despite it being a living art that is evolving...

One of the mixtures of the Arnis/Eskrima is the blocking system, disarming and most of all grabbing the sticks that leads to grabbing the blade. In Pekiti Tirsia we do not grab the weapon, we don't grab the sticks. We just cut the wrist, the arm, the legs, and when possible we take a Kilo of shoulders and possibly the neck.

That is the true art. would that not be presumptious, and maybe better to say that is the focus of our true arts, but other arts have validity in their philosophy. is it not said that filipino warriors cut down rattan to go to fight.. so surely the true warrior art is the art of the STICK?

[Banakun]

Additional queries which need clarification:

1. Pigafetta's documentation of Magellan's 1521 voyage notes Filipinos fighting both with bladed weapons AS WELL AS FIRE HARDENED STICKS. These were the "warriors" of pre-Hisapanic Philippines. So it would be safe to surmise that pre-hispanic warriors then fought with BOTH bladed and blunt weapons. Would it then be logical to surmise at the very least for them to have had techniques or approaches for both? As a matter of fact, iron ore and the ability to craft bladed weapons were a rare commodity in 16th century Philippines and that is why weapons from Indonesia and Malaysia were actually viewed to be "superior" in quality where the use of iron and metal-forging technology was much more advanced. The ready availability of the bladed implement in the form of the general utility BOLO came much later, during the SPANISH OCCUPATION.

2. Does that mean Pekiti Tirsia has NO BLOCKING OR DISARMING TECHNIQUES? I've seen quite a lot of videos of PTK practitioners and quite frankly, they show the same blocking as well as disarming repertoire as one would find in many of the other FMA systems. And while many FMA systems do grab the stick, they also have techniques that either hit, or grab the wrist... techniques which can be applied and are generally meant to be applied to bladed encounters. So to make a generalization like that (THIS makes US DIFFERENT from other FMA) would be a tad presumptuous IMHO. I personally also train with blades but not once did I find myself grabbing the blade edge despite the fact we do that with the sticks. What do you think? By way of implication, are you saying that "other" FMA practitioners are too stupid to even know the difference?

3. So PTK is PURE in that it has NO input from other FMA styles/systems nor from MAs from other countries. But wouldn't that be contradictory to the essence of FMA? That of being OPEN TO EVOLUTION, part of which involves assimilation and influence from others to make it more effective and relevant to the times? And isn't it the NATURE of men to be influenced and influence other men? Is it possible for people to be PURE to the point where one has NEVER been influenced by other people one way or the other? I personally have never met a man who is a total island.

4. When you say "That is the TRUE ART!" and say "99% of FMA do this and that" then are you saying that everything else is FAKE FMA? There are only a handful of systems and styles really and many of the different FMA systems today have relationships or historical links to other present-day systems. When we put this into consideration, the remaining 1% would amount to ONLY 1 OR 2 FMA systems or styles which can be considered THE TRUE ART.

5. What is TRUE FILIPINO PHILOSOPHY AND IDEOLOGY? Please expound on this as we have 3 Philosophy Professors in our group not to mention an Anthropolgy Professor who teaches in the University of the Philippines. So far they have been at a loss as to what is true Filipino Philosophy since Filipino Culture in and of itself is basically an amalgam of various cultural influences which makes pin-pointing a central Filipino Philosophy which encompasses the whole of Filipino worldview almost impossible. This would be a great help. What is TRUE FILIPINO PHILOSOPHY AND IDEOLOGY?

Thanks for taking the time to answer our queries. It's just that there are a lot of things which I would like to clarify since many of the prior-written posts can be subject to many interpretations.

Again, gumagalang...

[arnisador]

The original poster will be unable to reply during the suspension period.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[pguinto]

splitting triangles, circling, expansion/contraction of circular movements (spirals), etc

i got a little numbers geekness in me, dont mind my seeming absent-mindedness, seeing connectedness in the universe and such :D

[Banakun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOVJ638pXY&feature=related

This link seems to show GT "grabbing" the stick 51 seconds into the clip.

How can this be reconciled to previous posts that PTK "does not grab the stick"?

Thanks again.

[PeteNerd]

Are you guys really interested in learning anything about Pekiti Tirsia, or are you just trying to pick apart everything Tuhon says? I've been a student of Tuhon Gaje's and he is a very good teacher with a lot of knowledge. It seems like a lot of your "questions" are framed in a negative way or you are trying to put words in his mouth.

He's devoted his life to learning and teaching Pekiti Tirsia, what do you expect him to say... obviously he thinks it's the best thing there is. He's very vocal about his opinions and he won't back down, in person or on the internet. How many other grandmasters are on this forum sharing their knowledge? He is not hard to find, if you are truly seeking knowledge from him.

Pete

[franci1911]

how are fibonnacci ratios/ numbers related to FMA's?

First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

so in training with Dan inosanto, and Suryadi Jafri to name but
2, he has not gleaned any useful techniques from them that may have inadvertently or consciously been included into PTK, despite it being a living art that is evolving...

One of the mixtures of the Arnis/Eskrima is the blocking system, disarming and most of all grabbing the sticks that leads to grabbing the blade. In Pekiti Tirsia we do not grab the weapon, we don't grab the sticks. We just cut the wrist, the arm, the legs, and when possible we take a Kilo of shoulders and possibly the neck.

That is the true art. would that not be presumptious, and maybe better to say that is the focus of our true arts, but other arts have validity in their philosophy. is it not said that filipino warriors cut down rattan to go to fight.. so surely the true warrior art is the art of the STICK?



So first, of all are you practicing the art? What particular art are you practicing?

Second, if you would, go and speak to Guro Dan Inosanto instead of assuming (you do know what they say about those who assume). To put it to your words the Gleaming was done by Guro Dan, not by GrandTuhon Gaje. If you look at The Inosanto Blend there is a great many technique that he had taken from the years he has worked with GrandTuhon Gaje.

As far as Suriyadi Jafre, I was there where were you. Absolutely not there. I lived with both of them and I know what was what as far as Contributions. So what you will and appearantly you can here where I feel we are limited in what we can say without retrobution. But YOU KNOW what the contribution was that to me, (to put it in the words of Tim Hartman in reference to GrandTuhons postings is BS).

A true Filipino Warrior would not go into battle without a blade. When they cut the bamboo, rattan, iron wood, bahe it was fashioned into an edge or point. Please do some more research before you make yourself out to look so foolish.

What I would like to do is invite you to one of our seminars for you to see for yourself what we are talking about here. If you haven't experienced Pekiti-Tirsia Kali you shouldn't make judgement. Let the blade speak and the rattan interpret your questions. PANAPOS

[Banakun]

If I have offended anyone, then my apologies. The fact of the matter is, I was trained to think critically and went to a University where "there were no wrong or right answers, only good arguments." Just like we do in the physical aspect of FMA, we look at stuff put out there and test their validity. One way of doing so is to see its consistency to reality or previous history.

I consider myself a student of history, philosophy and culture. I am a graduate of Islamic Studies BTW. So, my interest in the subject matter is for real. If someone says, "I know what Filipino Philosophy is" then I would like to know what that person means and why he or she believes that that is it. For several years now, we have been debating and discussing on what is "truly" Filipino worldview, sans the influences of the Spanish and Americans. For one thing, most companies today rely on leadership principles as espoused by FOREIGN BOOKS. This begs the question, WHAT IS LEADERSHIP IN A TRULY FILIPINO CONTEXT? These are but a few of the things we talk about and discuss in our group.

I hope this sheds light on where I am coming from.

[franci1911]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOVJ638pXY&feature=related

This link seems to show GT "grabbing" the stick 51 seconds into the clip.

How can this be reconciled to previous posts that PTK "does not grab the stick"?

Thanks again.

First and foremost, I really need to address this title of (GT). GrandTuhon or Tuhon is the correct way to address GrandTuhon Gaje. Anything less than that is disrespectful. If you are ALL true FMA practicioners and understand Filipino Culture and Discipline you would understand this.

Now I am not just addressing this Banakun for you alone. I have been viewing this behaviorism on many occassions and I find it to be very Disrespectul.

Now Second, to address the Video Clip. What GrandTuhon Gaje is showing, is an equalizer. YOU cannot disarm someone with a blade UNLESS You also have a blade. For any to say or show that you can block or disarm a blade when you are empty handed does not understand blade contact tactics. I believe that this is because of the influence of other martial arts like that within the Japanese, Chinese and Korean Cultures.

What you see GrandTuhon doing is deflecting the hand or weapon, with the use of his hand or weapon. Any disarming that comes out of it is after the disorientation of his opponant. And always with the use of weapon against weapon. Never weapon against empty hands.

[Raul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOVJ638pXY&feature=related

This link seems to show GT "grabbing" the stick 51 seconds into the clip.

How can this be reconciled to previous posts that PTK "does not grab the stick"?

Thanks again.
Nice clip. A piece of history. PTK, that is.

[Phil Mar Nadela]

Are you guys really interested in learning anything about Pekiti Tirsia, or are you just trying to pick apart everything Tuhon says? I've been a student of Tuhon Gaje's and he is a very good teacher with a lot of knowledge. It seems like a lot of your "questions" are framed in a negative way or you are trying to put words in his mouth.

He's devoted his life to learning and teaching Pekiti Tirsia, what do you expect him to say... obviously he thinks it's the best thing there is. He's very vocal about his opinions and he won't back down, in person or on the internet. How many other grandmasters are on this forum sharing their knowledge? He is not hard to find, if you are truly seeking knowledge from him.

Pete
I totally agree Kapatid Pete. For a man that dedicated his life to his passion,Speaking as a arnisador and Filipino, I only have respect and admiration to Grand tuhon.
I believe he is only trying to speak his mind on how Pekiti-Tirsia is seen and talked about by some of our members here.

One should at least PM or even meet him in person. And if he allows you, try Pekiti-Tirsia before you judge His System. And if you feel that it is not for you, then let it be and move on.
I don't normally state my opinion on these matters; but if we keep doing this Negativity going on, we have lost the point of the forum, to share knowledge and promote a beautiful fighting art.

[GLENNLOBO]

splitting triangles, circling, expansion/contraction of circular movements (spirals), etc

i got a little numbers geekness in me, dont mind my seeming absent-mindedness, seeing connectedness in the universe and such :D


i love numbr geekiness, i just dont see where fibonacci numbers fit into FMA. please explain (and do so with small words... its early over here lol )

[Banakun]

[quote=franci1911;23667]
Now I am not just addressing this Banakun for you alone. I have been viewing this behaviorism on many occassions and I find it to be very Disrespectul.

No need to be all fired up Master Franciotti (my apologies if I did not use the correct terminology to address you). I have already stated where I was coming from and apologized for any offense that might have been taken. As far as I am concerned, this is merely a discussion.

I have no doubt as to GrandTuhon Gaje's skill or knowlege or the fact that he thinks PTK is the best. As stated by PeteNerd, he is vocal about his opinions and that is his right.

If you notice, nobody questions whether PTK is effective or not. To me, ALL FMA is effective. That is not the issue. The issues being discussed are with regards to FMA history, "classification" (which is real and which is not?), Philosophy and things like that. One of the greatest lessons I've learned from Guro Dan Inosanto's writings was "Not to answer the questions but rather question the answers." This is said to be the beginning of a true education. Just because somebody asks and seeks clarification does not mean that person is "foolish" and there is not need to call someone as such (as you did Master Glenn Lobo).

If I have been disrespectful in anyway, then I would leave this to the moderators to decide.

Peace out...

[silat1]

Franci1911 quoted "First and foremost, I really need to address this title of (GT). GrandTuhon or Tuhon is the correct way to address GrandTuhon Gaje. Anything less than that is disrespectful. If you are ALL true FMA practicioners and understand Filipino Culture and Discipline you would understand this"

Let me see, how can I respond to this as a FMA practitioner/instructor and married into the Filipino culture and discipline of over 30 years.. In all my time of training in the provinces of central Luzon (primarily the Pampangan Plains) I never have heard any of my instructors state that we were to call them GrandTuhon or Tuhon.. It was either Kyud (brother) or Kyudai (sister) to our instructors to show respect in class or in public.. In respect to my teachers and after I had left the Philippines, I called them Master Reston for my sinko tiros and balintawak instructor and Kyud Conrado for my Kuntaw instructor. Master Reston based the teachings of the systems that he learned on the old estocada systems that he had the opportunity to train in. Master Reston's last estocada system was taught to him by an individual from Bamban Tarlac whose name was Viray and was the last individual that he trained with prior to his death.

[GLENNLOBO]

"Not to answer the questions but rather question the answers." This is said to be the beginning of a true education. Just because somebody asks and seeks clarification does not mean that person is "foolish" and there is not need to call someone as such (as you did Master Glenn Lobo).

it is said the only stupid questions are the unasked ones.i ask questions because it is the way to learn. as Banakun says then you question the answers to ensure they have validity and test them. not in a negative way but in the way you test your sword to see if it is true..i was trained to disprove my hypothesis (null hypothesis) it means that you have a theory. you try to disprove it. if you cannot then there is a chance it is correct. the attitude is to constantly doubt your diagnosis beause that way you might keep your patients alive. i humbly apologise if it is seen as offensive. i like to ask questions.

i wasnt there with Dan I or Suryadi J, but i was asking the question. there would have been some trade of information. it is always likely that in any such trade, there will be more information going to than coming from Dan simply by virtue of what he does. i ask the question is it not possible that Mr Gaje also learnt something from interacting with these people or any others. if he did that would by definition mean that PTK is not pure. if he did not learn anything does that mean he doesnt think they are any good, or his techniques are better or what.

i for one, and i am sure everyone else, does not question his dedication to Filipino culture history and traditions. i love discussing philosophy.

What I would like to do is invite you to one of our seminars for you to see for yourself what we are talking about here. thank you. i had stopped attending seminars with people i dont already know because as soon as people find out i am there they start to try to prove that they are better than me, or my system. i find it tedious because i like to learn from people not have them boost their ego at my expense. since you have made such a kind offer i will consider it. thankyou.
If you haven't experienced Pekiti-Tirsia Kali you shouldn't make judgement. what judgement. i am not judging anything, merely asking questions so i can understand more.

Let the blade speak and the rattan interpret .. what does that mean?

what do you expect him to say... obviously he thinks it's the best thing there is. how can we frame that in a negative way? we all think our art is best, but we dont put others down. we all have something to offer.

How many other grandmasters are on this forum sharing their knowledge? none that i know of, which is why i want to ask questions of the one that is.. hells teeth, how many chances do you get to ask questions of a GM? but there is no point in posting stuff which is inflammatory, potentially erroneous, contradictory, and then not answer it, and merely jump up and down saying everyone is being mean and nasty. if he answers the questions, THEN he is sharing knowledge, up till that he is inciting, or teasing..

[franci1911]

Franci1911 quoted "First and foremost, I really need to address this title of (GT). GrandTuhon or Tuhon is the correct way to address GrandTuhon Gaje. Anything less than that is disrespectful. If you are ALL true FMA practicioners and understand Filipino Culture and Discipline you would understand this"

Let me see, how can I respond to this as a FMA practitioner/instructor and married into the Filipino culture and discipline of over 30 years.. In all my time of training in the provinces of central Luzon (primarily the Pampangan Plains) I never have heard any of my instructors state that we were to call them GrandTuhon or Tuhon.. It was either Kyud (brother) or Kyudai (sister) to our instructors to show respect in class or in public.. In respect to my teachers and after I had left the Philippines, I called them Master Reston for my sinko tiros and balintawak instructor and Kyud Conrado for my Kuntaw instructor. Master Reston based the teachings of the systems that he learned on the old estocada systems that he had the opportunity to train in. Master Reston's last estocada system was taught to him by an individual from Bamban Tarlac whose name was Viray and was the last individual that he trained with prior to his death.

Bill, I have been a practitioner of the Filipino Martial Arts as well for more than 30 years. And all within the same system of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. And you are agreeing with my point as far as respect. What I am saying is that GrandTuhon is his Title not (GT). If Kuya or Kyad as you call it is what they expect to be called should you call them (K). Tell me what is the proper greeting when an elder is greeted? Would you disrespect that elder if you didn't show him the proper respect by taking his hand and placing it to your forehead.

So being married to a Filipina and in the FMA for 30 years, no one has ever disrepected an instructor of yours and not be dealt with?

[silat1]

Bill, I have been a practitioner of the Filipino Martial Arts as well for more than 30 years. And all within the same system of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. And you are agreeing with my point as far as respect. What I am saying is that GrandTuhon is his Title not (GT). If Kuya or Kyad as you call it is what they expect to be called should you call them (K). Tell me what is the proper greeting when an elder is greeted? Would you disrespect that elder if you didn't show him the proper respect by taking his hand and placing it to your forehead.

So being married to a Filipina and in the FMA for 30 years, no one has ever disrepected an instructor of yours and not be dealt with?


Oh, I've stepped up to the plate and have settled some disputes that disrespected Master Reston and Kyud Con.. In fact, I went toe to toe verbally with one of our senior people in Kuntaw for making false statements about Con.. These statements pissed me off so much that I actually flew to the Philippines and tried to get to the bottom of the situation with the lineage holder of the Kuntaw system that I studied at the time.. The individual was not "available" to talk to me about this situation and when I called him a month later, I was told that the statements were made by another family member and he knew nothing about it.. I wrote a letter of resignation to the organization and basically told them to not include me in any shape or form as to the progress of the organization because of these statements

A couple of years later, I had a long indepth conversation with some of the old school guys in the angeles area who I had trained with back in the day and found some interesting tidbits of history on this situation. but that is in the past

As far as paying respect to the manongs and lolas of the Philippines, I have been doing the bless thing since I was inducted into the Philippine customs and culture by my wife.. It blows a lot of people away with the sight of an american showing respect that way especially since a lot of the newer generation filipino kids forgot how to do that.. I have been told by filipinos that I act more filipino than most of the people who they know and I classify the Philippines my second home due to the martial culture that I have embraced for 30 plus years and when the fecal matter hits the oscillating mechanism, it's balls out.

I try to treat everyone the same when it comes to the FMA and respect the culture, but there are times when I need to step back and take a deep breath with some of the writings that I have seen come across the net and other fma sources of information over the recent years..I sit back and shake my head and wonder what we have gotten ourselves into with all the bickering and back stabbing and why we are shaking our dirty laundry letting the whole world see the stuff that should be kept between family members and not for the whole world to see.

Just my .02 centavos

[GLENNLOBO]

[quote=franci1911;23627]First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

In other words Pekiti is the only 100% pure Pilipino martial art...with nothing else in the art like Silat or other MA ??

http://fmatalk.com/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://fmatalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=23628)

In an interview on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOVJ638pXY&feature=related

Grand Tuhon states he learned silat.

[Dagadiablo]

[QUOTE=franci1911;23627]First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

I've studied Japanese, Chinese and Korean arts extensively. I've also studied many FMA, extensively. Can't yet really see the influence of the Northeastern Asian Arts on Bahala Na Escrima as well as Serrada Escrima, though.

One of the mixtures of the Arnis/Eskrima is the blocking system, disarming and most of all grabbing the sticks that leads to grabbing the blade. In Pekiti Tirsia we do not grab the weapon, we don't grab the sticks. We just cut the wrist, the arm, the legs, and when possible we take a Kilo of shoulders and possibly the neck.

From my humble experience, most FMA teach blocking initially because it allows the beginner an opportunity to understand range. As the student becomes more adept at the system and has developed certain attributes such balance, timing, fluidity, footwork, etc. then he can progress to a closer, more dangerous range. At that point, depending on the instructor's confidence and trust in the student--the student then learns that the "blocking" now is simply counter striking. With a blade in hand, it is quite obvious the damage the practitioner can inflict. You see, a lot of guys who practice blade material, or at least close range stuff, don't practice on how to get to the inside.

By learning the stick stuff a beginner can learn how to bridge between long and close range...1st progression hit the stick (bigger target), 2nd progression hit the hand/wrist (defang the snake-which requires more practice/precision), 3rd progression--defang and enter with footwork--instead of check hand touching the stick, he simply "climbs the ladder" and controls the opponents limbs (wrist, elbows, shoulder joint, etc).

Okay, I know this is all remedial to all of you guys, but it's a simple reminder of the beautiful progression of ALL FMA that develops students in a short period of time. As far as blade/stick, a lot of the Manongs simply did not readily teach the translation of blade from stick because of the "rif raf" that's out there! You guys know what I'm talking about, as FMA increases in popularity more "interesting cats," or rather, questionable personalities seem to come out of the woodwork.:)

I have tremendous respect and admiration for Grand Tuhon. I believe that he is not only proud of his and his family's system of FMA, but fiercely proud to be a Filipino. That is what attracts me to learn from him, not so much of the technique--but from his conviction and pride that he instills amongst his students. Pretty powerful stuff, much more than swinging a blade.

If Grand Tuhon wants to speak his mind, please, let him. He is truly one of a kind, to say the least, so let's just enjoy him and his thoughts while we can. It's a free country or, I guess--free web space. Just as you are free to debate him. But keep in mind, the Spaniards didn't defeat the Philippines by guns or steel. In fact, the Spanish never had an army large enough that could suppress a united Filipino uprising.

The key word is united. The Spanish were brilliant in recognizing the infighting amongst tribes not only from different islands, but even from within their own tribes! This is the classic "Divide and Conquer" theory that the Spanish executed perfectly against the Filipinos as well as the great Aztec tribes of Mexico.

History seems to repeat itself---shame...

[sparrow]

3. So PTK is PURE in that it has NO input from other FMA styles/systems nor from MAs from other countries. But wouldn't that be contradictory to the essence of FMA? That of being OPEN TO EVOLUTION, part of which involves assimilation and influence from others to make it more effective and relevant to the times? And isn't it the NATURE of men to be influenced and influence other men? Is it possible for people to be PURE to the point where one has NEVER been influenced by other people one way or the other? I personally have never met a man who is a total island.



You may ask this question also to Mr. Nonito Limchua of Doce Pares, former trainer of Marcos Presidential Guards....

As far as showing respect to experts FMA for 15 years already in Mindanao-Cebu-Manila, never have I been asked to name my instructors GM or Master. Just brother.... There is only one master but god, don't bow to any man but him was my first lesson in FMA.

[Gilla]

Mr. Glennlobo it seems you are a muck slinger just throwing dung everywhere. After 20 years of study PTK is about as true Kali as you get. Tuhon did study silat, so what is your point. I also have news for you DTK is not PTK . Tt is from a group called supreme martial arts club a group that studied karate judo and arnis. Now stop being a pain.
Ed

[arnisador]

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[GLENNLOBO]

thank you arnisador.

the point, i had hoped was clear. iF PTK is as pure as you can get, with no outside influences from other martial arts, and silat has been incorporated then it is not pure so the defence arguement is fallacious. i am sorry i had to explain. i thought it was obvious.

[franci1911]

thank you arnisador.

the point, i had hoped was clear. iF PTK is as pure as you can get, with no outside influences from other martial arts, and silat has been incorporated then it is not pure so the defence arguement is fallacious. i am sorry i had to explain. i thought it was obvious.


Who said Silat was Incorporated. GrandTuhon Gaje had already a strong understanding of the Pekiti-Tirsia Kali Family System. He did a comparative analysis to see what makes silat TICK. He did not incorporate it or any other style/systme into the family system.

[franci1911]

Who said Silat was Incorporated. GrandTuhon Gaje had already a strong understanding of the Pekiti-Tirsia Kali Family System. He did a comparative analysis to see what makes silat TICK. He did not incorporate it or any other style/systme into the family system.

Silat and Kali is a Malay Fighting Culture. Meaning Filipino and Indonesian Cultures can be authenticated through language, different dialects, life style of the people, agriculture, fishing, hunting, forestry, and all activities to survive which are Malay Culture. So Silat would be checked with Kali and Kali can be checked with Silat. So the influence of Silat as a Malay Culture Kali influence also Silat. You can find this in footwork, smoothness of motion, and more on meta-physics.

Please conduct your research more thorough before you make such statements.

[franci1911]

You may ask this question also to Mr. Nonito Limchua of Doce Pares, former trainer of Marcos Presidential Guards....

As far as showing respect to experts FMA for 15 years already in Mindanao-Cebu-Manila, never have I been asked to name my instructors GM or Master. Just brother.... There is only one master but god, don't bow to any man but him was my first lesson in FMA.

In all the years I have been in martial arts 47 now more than 3 decades in FMA. Not one teacher demanded me to call them by title, however there ability and actions is what earns them that kind of respect.

As far as being asked, Have you ever met with Guro Dan Inosanto? If so did you call him Hey Danny? Or better have you attended college? Most of the teachers there are considered Professors. When you addressed them did you say Hey Teach? I think not.

By the way calling someone GrandTuihon or Tuhon does not imply or take way from your faith. Or repacing them with your God. I am a very strong Roman Catholic. I believe in God, however I also believe in giving proper respect. For the knowledge that they posses.

When you use the term Master or Tuhon as we do. you are giving respect to that individual (GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje jr.) who has totally mastered the system of which you (we) are learning and not treating him as God.

Also for those of you who use Brother, Kuya, Kyad in respect to their teachers that's fine on a personal basis. If that's what you or they prefer you to call them out of respect. Having been around the Philippines which I am right now, I do not find this to be the case. Or maybe you're just in the wrong system.

[PeteNerd]

thank you arnisador.

the point, i had hoped was clear. iF PTK is as pure as you can get, with no outside influences from other martial arts, and silat has been incorporated then it is not pure so the defence arguement is fallacious. i am sorry i had to explain. i thought it was obvious.

I speak english and I studied tagalog also... that doesn't mean somehow I incorporated tagalog into my english. My english is still english.

You guys are trying really hard to get at a couple things. I get what you're doing. You're trying to say that Grand Tuhon says that he thinks PTK is better than other FMA and you want to prove that PTK isn't 100% absolutely totally filipino. On the first note we've already covered that. Grand Tuhon thinks it's the best and a lot of people in PTK think it's the best.

As for Grand Tuhon incorporating silat into PTK, I don't see it but I don't really care either. The material and the way that Grand Tuhon teaches is heads above any other FMA practitioners I've met in the states. As far as the legitimacy of PTK as a filipino fighting system... it's traced back to 1890's.

It's clear you guys want and argument and that's cool. Franciotti and I can go on and on. Eddie will probably jump in from time to time too.

Honestly I think these conversations would be better had in person. I invite all of you to check out Pekiti Tirsia if you have a chance and meet with Tuhon Gaje. We believe in hospitality and respect and we think the material speaks for itself. If you haven't spent some time with Tuhon or the system, then I would be careful of making assumptions about what is what.

Pete

[franci1911]

e
[quote=franci1911;23627]First, of all Pekiti Tirsia adopts the Traditional Principles of the Blade Culture. If you do your research ninty-nine percent of the Escrima and Arnis are mixed with Japanese, Chinese and Korean and Non Filipino arts.

In other words Pekiti is the only 100% pure Pilipino martial art...with nothing else in the art like Silat or other MA ??

Issue on PTK vs DKT
how can a person who claims to be a Grand Master behave in this manner? surely this is against everything that we aspire to in martial arts. i notice you sidestepped my last post by opening another so you can continue your mindless diatribe against this weeks object of your distain.

if i was your teacher, or associated with you in any way, i would be embarrassed at your behaviour. you can only correct your own behaviour, no-one elses so you might want to start there before continuing with your venomous outbursts.

one of my teachers, a grandmaster of the HIGHEST reputation and integrity, actually changed the name of his style so as not to compromise his ex-son-in law who had separated from my teacher's daughter. he was the best and rightfully respected throughout the world, but he did not want to put his student in a difficult position.

i have huge respect for the man for his integrity sensitivity respect and dignity.

i know it is too late for you Tuhon Gaje but you might want to try to aspire to these lofty goals. bring some respect and dignity to your actions and your word.
http://fmatalk.com/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://fmatalk.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=23628)

In an interview on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOVJ638pXY&feature=related

Grand Tuhon states he learned silat.

[greg808]

Everyone should stop with their assumptions concerning Grand Tuhon Gaje, he is entitled to his beliefs and oppinions. I have never met Grand Tuhon Gaje, but have met an instructor of his. He was very humble and respectful. Every system and school has their own problems and unless you know the facts it is easy judge from the outside.

"There is no bad martial art, only bad martial artist"- Bruce Lee

[silat1]

I speak english and I studied tagalog also... that doesn't mean somehow I incorporated tagalog into my english. My english is still english.

You guys are trying really hard to get at a couple things. I get what you're doing. You're trying to say that Grand Tuhon says that he thinks PTK is better than other FMA and you want to prove that PTK isn't 100% absolutely totally filipino. On the first note we've already covered that. Grand Tuhon thinks it's the best and a lot of people in PTK think it's the best.

As for Grand Tuhon incorporating silat into PTK, I don't see it but I don't really care either. The material and the way that Grand Tuhon teaches is heads above any other FMA practitioners I've met in the states. As far as the legitimacy of PTK as a filipino fighting system... it's traced back to 1890's.

It's clear you guys want and argument and that's cool. Franciotti and I can go on and on. Eddie will probably jump in from time to time too.

Honestly I think these conversations would be better had in person. I invite all of you to check out Pekiti Tirsia if you have a chance and meet with Tuhon Gaje. We believe in hospitality and respect and we think the material speaks for itself. If you haven't spent some time with Tuhon or the system, then I would be careful of making assumptions about what is what.

Pete

Pete,
Greetings from Guam.. I too have studied tagalog and English is my first language. As Franciotti and I have stated before we have been studying the FMA for more than 3 decades and we each march to a different drummer in our specific FMA training and travels.. I primarily have stayed with the Luzon (more specifically the Pampangan Plains of central Luzon) based Filipino arts where the warriors from Macebe and Pampanga in general were hired as mercenaries to fight against the different aggressors that tried to occupy the respective areas of the Philippines..

But over the years and having my instructors die one by one, you sometimes lose access and training by the old school guys who have walked the walk and kept the talk to a minimum.. It is with this happening that I decided to look outside of the box and see what else as far as the FMA from the different regions of the Philippines had to offer.. As I have stated previously a few of my instructors were guerrillas and Filipino scouts who survived the actions of ww2 due to their training and the dakap diwa (warrior mindset) development of their respective family system.

The art of Pekiti first interested me as early as the mid 80's by reading and training with some of the PTK guys who I had limited exposure to because of my military assignments.. The selling point for me to study PTK was the focus on the blade which was high on my needs and requirements as a medic with limited access to weapons due to the regulations and requirements outlined by the Geneva Convention, so ingenuity and readily available tools were called on to perform life saving actions as required.

But over the years and watching the evolution of PTK unfold, it got to the point where the desire to learn the system started to wain.. It was an accidental meeting while I was in San Antonio in 01, where I was invited to attend a couple of the training sessions with Rudy Salazar's guys that peaked my interest in PTK again.. Over the years, I have had regular contact with several senior PTK practitioners primarily from the texas area and their input kept me interested in the system.. But due to my travel requirements along with my current location, my training with PTK was very limited. The only training in PTK that I have had access to was with a friend who studied at the Inosanto academy back in the late 70s to early 80s, he had a varied work schedule so the training schedule was haphazard to say the least.

It was while I was in Chicago where I had the opportunity to train in DTS and that was the resulting reason why I decided to go this route as furthering my training in the Filipino combatives systems..

I still have colleagues with in the PTK community and we share a common thread which is the presenting of our respective eskrima/arnis/kali systems to the public who wish to train in the FMA..

It is the threads that people read which formulate their opinion on whether or not they want to train in the arts that they see senior people involved with arguments and the comparison of ball sizes which drive them from training and leads them to the other systems of the FMA.

It is with the above comments in mind that I have posted my rebuttals to the comments made in regards to the differing opinions of the systems reflected in these threads.

[Gilla]

I am sorry if i offended anyone. Being half Irish and half Spanish i am hot headed . So here is my point. I feel that as due to the fact we have 1 head and 4 arms there are only so many things we as martial artists can do with martial arts . So there is a certain amount of technics that are universal this does not mean they add stuff from other arts its just all roads lead to Rome .(sometimes a lot of people get lost) As a friend of mine says it's all one art. Not to mention they are all Malay arts so they are related.
Ed

[pguinto]

i love numbr geekiness, i just dont see where fibonacci numbers fit into FMA. please explain (and do so with small words... its early over here lol )
i speak in relation to fredrico ghisliero and his emphasis on the use of Euclidean geometry to guide footwork and, blade motions.
- http://www.thearma.org/essays/Regole.htm
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederico_Ghisliero
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry

once you bring geometry into the topic, you cannot help but think about how fibonacci sequences relate; overlaying circles and concentric circles with ever widening or tightening spirals in terms of movement

examples of fibonacci sequences seem to permeate everything in the universe from the spirals on a nautilus shell to the gravitational pulls of stars, planets, etc

geeky enough for you? :D

more noteworthy stuff:

The Regole primarily teaches the use of sword (spada) –an early edged-rapier or slender cut & thrust blade, as used only together with the dagger. Spada y daga (italian?)

His mathematical concepts were founded upon a series of concentric circles, with the center being the duelist's back foot (which was usually the foot on which the majority of one's weight rested in most of the systems of the time). Each concentric circle expanded out from the center by the length of one pace. There were also crossing lines, which shared their common midpoint with the central point of the concentric circles. These crossing lines pointed forward, backward, right, and left, relative to the fencer.
This particular use of geometry is thought to be due to the influence of the Spanish school, however, the Spanish school used a single circle that encompassed both duelists, while Ghisliero's system used numerous circles centered around a single fencer. While, this common usage of geometry in the context of blade combat has been thought to show at least some Spanish influence, it should be noted that Jeronimo de Carranza, the father of the Spanish school, was heavily influenced by Agrippa's application of geometry to combat in his book,entitled Trattio di Scienzia d'Armes (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trattio_di_Scienzia_d%27Armes&action=edit&redlink=1), which also incorporated the idea of a circle that would encircle the duelists. Note the word Armes - sounds and looks alot like Arnis

[GLENNLOBO]

geeky enough for you? :D

man thats well geeky.. but i'm loving it cos i just started going to number geeks anonymous
:biggrinbo. thanks for the info, i'll go digest this later.

[franci1911]

I am sorry if i offended anyone. Being half Irish and half Spanish i am hot headed . So here is my point. I feel that as due to the fact we have 1 head and 4 arms there are only so many things we as martial artists can do with martial arts . So there is a certain amount of technics that are universal this does not mean they add stuff from other arts its just all roads lead to Rome .(sometimes a lot of people get lost) As a friend of mine says it's all one art. Not to mention they are all Malay arts so they are related.
Ed

You have not offended anyone. Why should one be offended. If he is doing right and he believes what is the truth why should he worry what people think.

When you touch the weakness of the person then you expect resistance. You the subject of removing the weapons or blades from the hand or you want to take the knife from someones hand.. Then you tell the person that removing the weapon from someone hand is a grave crime because you are committing murder on your part knowing that the blade cannot be taken away from the person who is an expert.

You participate here every now and then. This forum is intellectually an exchange program of culture and its influence to the people who learn the art diligently. As this time , weapon is a weapon. So the result is devastating with Lechon na manok . The favorite of the people in the farm.

Your destiny and my destiny can be deciphered in one common denominator. Meaning we beleive l what we say with the the force reconn side that can help to draw the license.If you are close to the Gods you kick all the assets.

[Raul]

When you touch the weakness of the person then you expect resistance.True.


You the subject of removing the weapons or blades from the hand or you want to take the knife from someones hand.. Then you tell the person that removing the weapon from someone hand is a grave crime because you are committing murder on your part knowing that the blade cannot be taken away from the person who is an expert.Knife experts are the least of the people who you will expect to use the knife to attack anyone. Very few knife experts who are actual knifers.
I personally know a lot of knifers. Far from experts, they are just ordinary people who touch the knife only to stick it into your guts. As they say,"Don't touch it if you won't use it."

[Ron Kosakowski]

thank you arnisador.

the point, i had hoped was clear. iF PTK is as pure as you can get, with no outside influences from other martial arts, and silat has been incorporated then it is not pure so the defence arguement is fallacious. i am sorry i had to explain. i thought it was obvious.

I have heard this debate before. Is PTK a pure Filipino style? Then again, what is "pure" Filipino? The Philippines have been a melting pot of cultures for over 3000 years. Then again, if this blend of cultures has been blending for over 3000 years, doesn't that still make the cuture indigenous? 3000 years is a long freakin time. If the answer is no, then there are only a hand full of pure cultures out there in the world and not many of ya's out there are very pure in race and/or nationality.

Back to PTK...from what I have seen over the years, PTK has evolved. Every true master in every generation of a certain style adds that certain touch that distinguishes the old way from the new way. If the style doesn't evolve, it does not work anymore. It has to evolve with the existing fighting methods surrounding it in order to defend against it, or at least have a good fighting chance!

My Kuntao for example...I am sure the way I teach it is not the way it was taught 1000 years ago. In fact, I know this for a fact. My teacher had adapted modern day street fighting defense tactics within the style and since his time, I have added to it as well. I feel what evolved my Kuntao was the fact that I trained with so many teachers over the past almost 40 years. I see some tactics of offensive/defense that I can use on more other lines of attack than I did when I first started Kuntao. Maybe we all will be teaching lazor defenses soon because the local gangs will be using them...who knows but I am sure it will all continue to evolve with the next generation who takies over, Kuntao, Kali, etc.

Look what happened to Jeet Kune Do...there is a perfect example! You think Bruce Lee was the only one to figure all that evolution stuff out? "Pure," is preserving the true essance of a certain style yet adapting it to other discoveries as time goes on.

[Mandirigma]

I speak english and I studied tagalog also... that doesn't mean somehow I incorporated tagalog into my english. My english is still english.

You guys are trying really hard to get at a couple things. I get what you're doing. You're trying to say that Grand Tuhon says that he thinks PTK is better than other FMA and you want to prove that PTK isn't 100% absolutely totally filipino. On the first note we've already covered that. Grand Tuhon thinks it's the best and a lot of people in PTK think it's the best.

As for Grand Tuhon incorporating silat into PTK, I don't see it but I don't really care either. The material and the way that Grand Tuhon teaches is heads above any other FMA practitioners I've met in the states. As far as the legitimacy of PTK as a filipino fighting system... it's traced back to 1890's.

It's clear you guys want and argument and that's cool. Franciotti and I can go on and on. Eddie will probably jump in from time to time too.

Honestly I think these conversations would be better had in person. I invite all of you to check out Pekiti Tirsia if you have a chance and meet with Tuhon Gaje. We believe in hospitality and respect and we think the material speaks for itself. If you haven't spent some time with Tuhon or the system, then I would be careful of making assumptions about what is what.

Pete

Yeah what Pete said!!!!