Balintawak Entry on MartialTalk MartialArts Encyclopedia

[Bob Hubbard]

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MTMAE Entries:
Balintawak (http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Balintawak)

[arnisador]

A major addition has been made to the Wikipedia Balintawak article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balintawak). Please check it for accuracy! (I didn't add it, I just noticed it.) If it looks good, port it over to Martialpedia!

[Rolando]

I'm afraid that the word Balintawak is taking a different meaning.

Balintawak has a great historical significance in the Philippines. A place north of Manila where a secret group of brave men met and planned the revolution against Spain in the late 1800s, Andres Bonifacio as one of the leaders. Because of its significance, many places and streets throughout Philippines were named after Balintawak including the street where Ancion formed his school. Ancion named his style "Kuwentada" meaning exchange or transaction (tapi-tapi has sort of the same meaning with emphasis on rhythm of change). Students of Ancion were known as fighters of Balintawak - thus the name stuck.

[Rocky]

I'm afraid that the word Balintawak is taking a different meaning.

Balintawak has a great historical significance in the Philippines. A place north of Manila where a secret group of brave men met and planned the revolution against Spain in the late 1800s, Andres Bonifacio as one of the leaders. Because of its significance, many places and streets throughout Philippines were named after Balintawak including the street where Ancion formed his school. Ancion named his style "Kuwentada" meaning exchange or transaction (tapi-tapi has sort of the same meaning with emphasis on rhythm of change). Students of Ancion were known as fighters of Balintawak - thus the name stuck.

Sorry to disagree but I have been told by GM BUOT and GM PRESAS that Anciong never had a name for his art when he started teaching in the back of his friends shop, so he simply called it the Balintawak Club and the art took on the name ( See my artical from ....... Cuentada is not something that can be taught it is not an exchange ( at least not in the original art as taught by GM BUOT ) it is a level of proficiantcy it is the ability to see several moves ahead, like a good chess player.

Rocky

[Rich Parsons]

A major addition has been made to the Wikipedia Balintawak article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balintawak). Please check it for accuracy! (I didn't add it, I just noticed it.) If it looks good, port it over to Martialpedia!

Over all good. :)

The issue about Death Matches.

I think there should be some a note about how the matches were for real and that Death was a possibility but not a requirement for the conflict to be over. Knock out and or someone stopping the fight is how most ended.

The point about going to jail was mentioned, but it could be made a little mroe clear.

I also think Arturo Sanchez should also be mentioned as he trained with Manong Ted Buot and also GM Bacon. He took over as GM Bacon's right hand man after Manong Ted left. He just never pushed himself forward into the lime light.

I will review again and think about how to maintain the current flow and also possible add in the above. If someone else has an idea please feel free.

[Soncen]

Sorry to disagree but I have been told by GM BUOT and GM PRESAS that Anciong never had a name for his art when he started teaching in the back of his friends shop, so he simply called it the Balintawak Club and the art took on the name ( See my artical from ....... Cuentada is not something that can be taught it is not an exchange ( at least not in the original art as taught by GM BUOT ) it is a level of proficiantcy it is the ability to see several moves ahead, like a good chess player.

Rocky
Hello Rocky,

I just want to share with you something about the story on account of Noy Anciong himself as he told it to my teacher Teofilo Roma. Noy Anciong only called his style as CUENTADA when asked about the name of his style, which meant for him as planned or accounted moves to always gain shots, but people here in Cebu would only simply called it as Anciong’s style of Arnis. Regarding the name of the group that involves of all his students, people here in Cebu on that moment will identify them as Anciong’s Group. There was no formal organization that was established on that time and the gathering was only some sort of fellowship and training sessions, there were several lawyers and businessmen who joined the group although did not actually trained with him. In 1956, Anciong’s students were increasing into nearly a hundred folds and they called their group as Club 56 and they would occasionally met for a banquet with a moneyed people who joined the group in an informal gathering.

Anciong never had organized a group and what he had only intended to do all his life is to teach the art to all his friends who are interested to learn. He would only explained the mechanics of his new style to his close friends and invited them to train with him (he is not fond of inviting people who are not close to him). In fact he required those who are not close to him to try him first in a duel before teaching them. In the following year they changed their group’s name into Balintawak Arnis group befitting the location at the Balintawak St. at the back of Noy Dado’s watch repair shop, where they frequently gathered for training sessions and the purpose was to identify it from the Doce Pares Arnis club. I think Noy Teddy Buot had just missed this piece of information, Atty. Villasin was also Noy Anciong’s Assistant Instructor together with Isidro Bardilas and Roman Encarnacion, but his number one fighter was Delfin Lopez before his defeat to Atty. Villasin in a duel.

God bless!!!

Wilson R. Ceniza

[Rolando]

I'm trying to think the best way to define Cuentada. Cuenta means account or to count (as in monetary), in this case I concur that it is planned or accounted. I'm thinking probably "to calculate" or "calculated".

I just to mention a little about death matches in the Philippines
• It's illegal
• the best skilled does not always win (sometimes guns are used)
• There's nothing romantic about it
• it doesn't take place in a day, the grudge often last a lifetime, then the family inherits the grudge.
(I have a hundred more, but I'll stop here)

It simply sucks!

[Rich Parsons]

I'm trying to think the best way to define Cuentada. Cuenta means account or to count (as in monetary), in this case I concur that it is planned or accounted. I'm thinking probably "to calculate" or "calculated".

I just to mention a little about death matches in the Philippines
• It's illegal
• the best skilled does not always win (sometimes guns are used)
• There's nothing romantic about it
• it doesn't take place in a day, the grudge often last a lifetime, then the family inherits the grudge.
(I have a hundred more, but I'll stop here)

It simply sucks!


Many of the accounts I have heard about the 50's and 60's for fights were two people had set a time and they met and faught. Many times others came to watch. Sometimes if a person would not fight or did not show up the other who had would challenge someone else there.

These fights were between two people who wanted to fight each in many cases or to protect their honor.

I have heard of some being ended with knock outs. I heard some being ended by a person's wife running out inbetween (* it is uncomely to hit a woman *) and this would end the fight.

I have also heard how Noy (GM) Bacon went to jail for killing someone who attacked him.

I also heard from different sources that some would have friends with Guns, which is why one had to have friends there or be public enough (* Still not sanctioned by the police or laws *). I also heard that some faught with a stick in one had and a Gun in the other but Delphin was the only one I heard that about specifically.

I am not trying to take away anything, for the fights were real and death is major concern being hit in the head with a stick can kill someone. Hence why I like to train no pads at all, to not get used to having that available to protect me. NOTE: I have not had any serious matches, all Play, so I respect what happened and can happen and still happens, I was just looking for some clarification to be written, as one did not have to kill the other to end the match.

[Soncen]

Hello Rich,

Some stories you’ve heard are true, like that of ending the fight with knock outs or a person’s wife come running in between, but some are not. Here in the Philippines carrying of gun in public by a civilian was prohibited because only the Police is authorized to carry such thing, however civilians can secure a license from the government to possessed a firearm, but they are not allowed to carry it with them in public. Outlawed people tack their gun inside their shirt to conceal from the Police, and that is the reason why there were so many cases of killings here by a firearm.

Delfin Lopez had firearms because his line of business was a Security Agency and all the firearms that are used by the member of his security guards are licensed in his name and he too had his own personal licensed handgun. There were rumors here in Cebu that he had killed seventeen people but there is no evidence and he never had indicted in court for such cases. In the 1950’s or 60’s, a fighter who end up killing his opponent in death matches was not considered a skilled practitioner of the art and Delfin wants only to be popular with his skill in Balintawak Arnis.

In all of Delfin Lopez’s fight, only Atty. Villasin and Anciong Bacon his teacher (when he tried to fight against him to test his ability) had defeated him.


Respectfully,

Wilson R. Ceniza
Teovel Balintawak Self-defense Club
Mandaue City, Cebu, Phjilippines

[Toasty]

. In the following year they changed their group’s name into Balintawak Arnis group befitting the location at the Balintawak St. at the back of Noy Dado’s watch repair shop, where they frequently gathered for training sessions and the purpose was to identify it from the Doce Pares Arnis club. Atty. Villasin was also Noy Anciong’s Assistant Instructor together with Isidro Bardilas and Roman Encarnacion, but his number one fighter was Delfin Lopez before his defeat to Atty. Villasin in a duel.

God bless!!!

Wilson R. Ceniza

Hello again Wilson,

From what i have researched - it has been stated by many different people that Anciong never used the word "Arnis" for what he taught - only "Eskrima".

Also, I have never heard of a "duel" between Villasin & D. Lopez... could you elaborate on this please.

Thanks
Rob

[Rich Parsons]

I wonder if this link could be added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW9phmfn-gE

It is part of the movie intro for "Enter Garote" where three of the very well known Balintawak players including "Anciong".

[Soncen]

Hello again Wilson,

From what i have researched - it has been stated by many different people that Anciong never used the word "Arnis" for what he taught - only "Eskrima".

Also, I have never heard of a "duel" between Villasin & D. Lopez... could you elaborate on this please.

Thanks
Rob
Hello Rob,

Thanks for your reaction!!! I’m glad that you care doing some research about our Balintawak martial art.

Anciong also had taught some bare hand combat and knife fighting. Eskrima is only a stick fighting the major component of our martial arts we called Balintawak arnis. People here in Cebu on that moment only called the martial art of Anciong as Anciong’s style, but when asked about the name of his style, he only say it was a “Cuentada”. However it was his students who named it as the Balintawak Arnis for the purpose to identify it from the Doce Pares Arnis.

About Delfin Lopez, his line of business was a Security Agency and his clients were some big business firms. In those days company establishment were threatened frequently by labor strikes. Delfin boasted to his clients that all his Security guards for hire is very dependable as they all have the skills of the best martial art fighting. So in order to impress them, Delfin invited all his client businessmen to watch for him demonstrating the Balintawak Arnis in their little gymnasium to show that his martial art was very sophisticated.

In the gym, Delfin would pick Atty. Villasin as his dummy opponent of his show and in order to impress his clients, he would smack Atty. Villasin down and he did it not only once but in several occasions. Atty. Villasin would be badly beaten and humbled only for Delfin to brag about his deadly skill. Anciong was not happy for Delfin’s misdemeanor, so he taught Atty. Villasin all the techniques of fighting in a secret meeting sessions until one day in one other occasion of Delfin’s exhibition show with him, Atty. Villasin did not allow himself to be beaten again.

He fought back and defended well and the rest was history, Delfin was then aptly vanquished. This is the story that was told to me by my teacher Teofilo Roma on accounts from Anciong Bacon, Atty. Villasin and his teacher Mr. Velez.

Respectfully,

Wilson R. Ceniza

[Bob Hubbard]

The entrys had some fleshing out, but could really use a more indepth treatment, maybe covering some of the history and different lineages?
http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Balintawak

[Wilson]

I can only say "smokes would always come out in the open"!

[arnisador]

I don't follow you?

[Wilson]

I think nobody is leading anyone. It must be possible that they are only telling honestly what they know about the things that are not yet known to all.

[arnisador]

Ah, OK. Well, Balintawak does seem to be splintered now--but then, it was always more of a club than a style, wasn't it? Is this so bad?

[Wilson]

everyone is entitled their own opinion.... what is being told is a story that was really happening, no grudges with this people involve.... we are all brother balintawak of the same origin from the late great great great Grandmaster Venancio (Anciong) Bacon the Inventor of the art.

[arnisador]

Someone keeps editing the Wikipedia entry to emphasize "Balintawak Self Defense Club" and Jose Villasin. See the page history here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balintawak

[Rich Parsons]

Someone keeps editing the Wikipedia entry to emphasize "Balintawak Self Defense Club" and Jose Villasin. See the page history here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balintawak

Why is the whole thread even up anymore? I mean GM Bacon never wrote a book or was published.

As to the biased approach it could be someone from that lineage.

[arnisador]

Yeah, someone from that lineage is what I guessed--a very persistent someone!

[Rich Parsons]

Yeah, someone from that lineage is what I guessed--a very persistent someone!

If a person only looks at the tree in front of them then that is all they see. They may not see the other trees that grew from same parent tree. To them that tree is the most important and the only view of the world they have.

Given time many will see the other trees. One can hope they do it sooner than later. :)

[Soncen]

If a person only looks at the tree in front of them then that is all they see. They may not see the other trees that grew from same parent tree. To them that tree is the most important and the only view of the world they have.

Given time many will see the other trees. One can hope they do it sooner than later. :)
Hello Rich,

I hope I may not be misunderstood. But in a large family, there are siblings who just shine by themselves, some wants to shine by doing some gimmicks to attract attention. But some are non-sociable who are just willing to remain silent in the sideline but doesn’t mean, they are ignorant or uneducated.

In the garden, some trees are just big and have many branches, while some of them easily attract attention by onlookers because they were implanted from a good access view. But some trees although could hardly be seen in the garden bears also good and excellent taste of fruit where birds and bats are feasting in them.

In the Balintawak community, there are groups who are working hard to promote the art, even non-balintawak is riding the popularity and misuse the name. Some have large followers waiting for the opportunity to be known, but there are some groups who don’t want to be exposed although don’t mean they are mediocre nor have no skill at all.

I can only say, anyone have all the freedom to do what they believed could bring good thing to their group. Wikipedia gives them the opportunity and I am happy although not belong to their lineage, because they are brother balintawak to me.

Wilson

[Rich Parsons]

Hello Rich,

I hope I may not be misunderstood. But in a large family, there are siblings who just shine by themselves, some wants to shine by doing some gimmicks to attract attention. But some are non-sociable who are just willing to remain silent in the sideline but doesn’t mean, they are ignorant or uneducated.

In the garden, some trees are just big and have many branches, while some of them easily attract attention by onlookers because they were implanted from a good access view. But some trees although could hardly be seen in the garden bears also good and excellent taste of fruit where birds and bats are feasting in them.

In the Balintawak community, there are groups who are working hard to promote the art, even non-balintawak is riding the popularity and misuse the name. Some have large followers waiting for the opportunity to be known, but there are some groups who don’t want to be exposed although don’t mean they are mediocre nor have no skill at all.

I can only say, anyone have all the freedom to do what they believed could bring good thing to their group. Wikipedia gives them the opportunity and I am happy although not belong to their lineage, because they are brother balintawak to me.

Wilson

Wilson,

I hope you did not take my comments as an insult to you.

I know there are those who wish to remain unknown but wish to teach students well.

I know some wish to spread the name of the art.

I understand that some trees have been planted in locations that allow better access to the mass population than others. It did not mean to imply that those trees are not skilled nor are they wrong to promote themselves.


My comment was that sometimes people do things thinking they are right and trying to help others. They may insult others and not even try. To me, I believe that there could be comments about the different groups within Balintawak and all could be recognized. If something is true then say it. Leave it stand on its' own. There is no need to create new or the try to hide others in the shadows. The light and exposure can in my opinion be shared by all.

If I had a real issue, to the point of thinking it would make a serious change, I would go and edit Wiki myself and see if it could not become a place for people to read about all the instructors and lineages of Balintawak. If someone is serious they may reference Wiki, but only to get links to other sources and to cross integrate information and not take Wiki as an absolute.

I hope you are well, and I hope that those who practice Balintawak continue to do so and continue to spread the art.

[Soncen]

Wilson,

I hope you did not take my comments as an insult to you.

I know there are those who wish to remain unknown but wish to teach students well.

I know some wish to spread the name of the art.

I understand that some trees have been planted in locations that allow better access to the mass population than others. It did not mean to imply that those trees are not skilled nor are they wrong to promote themselves.


My comment was that sometimes people do things thinking they are right and trying to help others. They may insult others and not even try. To me, I believe that there could be comments about the different groups within Balintawak and all could be recognized. If something is true then say it. Leave it stand on its' own. There is no need to create new or the try to hide others in the shadows. The light and exposure can in my opinion be shared by all.

If I had a real issue, to the point of thinking it would make a serious change, I would go and edit Wiki myself and see if it could not become a place for people to read about all the instructors and lineages of Balintawak. If someone is serious they may reference Wiki, but only to get links to other sources and to cross integrate information and not take Wiki as an absolute.

I hope you are well, and I hope that those who practice Balintawak continue to do so and continue to spread the art.
Rich,

Don’t worry, I take your comment as your own personal opinion that you share in this forum for discussion and to me you have the point because that is your own honest understanding. In my response I take the privilege to point out my own personal view using the English language in my own Filipino culture and understanding without the intention of maligning people but only for the purpose of contributing some good interaction.

To my mind all Balintawak practitioners is a brother Balintawak to each other no matter what nationality he may belong, although our group could humbly accept any rejection if the idea cannot be acceptable to some quarters. However, I believed that every generation of the Balintawak family is obligated to protect and love one another just as we love Noy Anciong the inventor of the art and be proud if there is somebody up there bringing the good name and show to the entire world in there own way about their existence.

But of course this excludes false and fake ones who are only riding the popularity and misuse the name. In wiki, anybody can add information about the stories of their own in the lineage of their teacher but I agree it should not be absolute. Those people might be thinking that their actions was right for as long as they are abiding on the site’s policy because anyone has given the opportunity to edit, I suggest it would be arranged into chronological order that would starts from the direct students of Noy Anciong and avoid deleting old entries.

I am very sorry that there are brother who are unmindful of the sensitivity of other people in the family although in my own honest understanding the entry in the wiki do no harm nor do I have the feeling that their action was very insulting even though as you notice they did not mention the name of my teacher Teofilo V. Roma the student of Mr. Teofilo Velez and President of the Teovel Balintawak Arnis group since it was established in April 17, 1982.

I hope that in this very moment everybody will learn a lesson and I appeal to all brother Balintawak to exercise loving one another in the family of the Balintawak community. God bless us all!!!

Your brother Balintawak

Wilson

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Don’t worry, I take your comment as your own personal opinion that you share in this forum for discussion and to me you have the point because that is your own honest understanding. In my response I take the privilege to point out my own personal view using the English language in my own Filipino culture and understanding without the intention of maligning people but only for the purpose of contributing some good interaction.

To my mind all Balintawak practitioners is a brother Balintawak to each other no matter what nationality he may belong, although our group could humbly accept any rejection if the idea cannot be acceptable to some quarters. However, I believed that every generation of the Balintawak family is obligated to protect and love one another just as we love Noy Anciong the inventor of the art and be proud if there is somebody up there bringing the good name and show to the entire world in there own way about their existence.

But of course this excludes false and fake ones who are only riding the popularity and misuse the name. In wiki, anybody can add information about the stories of their own in the lineage of their teacher but I agree it should not be absolute. Those people might be thinking that their actions was right for as long as they are abiding on the site’s policy because anyone has given the opportunity to edit, I suggest it would be arranged into chronological order that would starts from the direct students of Noy Anciong and avoid deleting old entries.

I am very sorry that there are brother who are unmindful of the sensitivity of other people in the family although in my own honest understanding the entry in the wiki do no harm nor do I have the feeling that their action was very insulting even though as you notice they did not mention the name of my teacher Teofilo V. Roma the student of Mr. Teofilo Velez and President of the Teovel Balintawak Arnis group since it was established in April 17, 1982.

I hope that in this very moment everybody will learn a lesson and I appeal to all brother Balintawak to exercise loving one another in the family of the Balintawak community. God bless us all!!!

Your brother Balintawak

Wilson


Wilson et al,

I agree we are brothers of the same art. We should be trying to promote ourselves as a group. And if there are differences comment on them, and a I have stated before if someone has added something to their training admit it and let their student know as well. Then less confusions will occur in the future.

As to those who are riding on the name and or inventing their own version of history, I hope people in time recognize them for they are. They might have knowledge in an art or skill set worthy of teaching but they just might be stretching or misleading others about history or relationship to an art. They should just teach and let people decide if they are worth while to go back and see again.

Thanks