The 36/24 Counters of Venancio Bacon

[Mono]

Hello to all...

This is a Question about "old school" Balintawak.

According to the Text below, the following "Counters" have been used/taught by Venancio Bacon:

Venancio Bacon said about himself that he knew 36 different counters to every possible attack. Of those 36 methods, 12 went with him into his grave. Only 24 were passed on.
Source: http://www.necopa.de/Style/History/Balintawak/balintawak.html

Can anyone elaborate on this Point?

How can I picture those "Counters"?

Does it mean something like:
1. Vertical Block and follow-ups
2. Direct Strike to the Hand and follow-ups
3. Evade and pass through and follow ups etc etc etc

or is it more like

1. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 1: Strike to the head &continue
2. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 2: Butt to the Hand & continue
3. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 3: Disarm xyz... etc etc

Does anyone have further Information on what those "24/36" counters are and or how this has been taught?
Thanks for any Info!!!

Yours,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I've trained with Manong Ted Buot since 2000 and I've never heard of this.

[Robert Klampfer]

I've not heard of this, either. I'm thinking it probably falls into the "myth & folklore" category.

Robert

[Rich Parsons]

I gave my answer on martial talk: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=937480&posted=1#post937480

[Mono]

Thanks for all the Answers allready!!!

Philipp

[armas]

Hey Phil,
I am a practitioner (not an expert) of Balintawak. And am fortunate to have experienced Villasin, Teovel and Tabimina. All I can say is Balintawak is not about techniques. It is reaction to whatever comes at you. What's the use of having so many techniques if you cannot pull it off in Real time.

Just my two cents.

[Mono]

Hey Phil,
I am a practitioner (not an expert) of Balintawak. And am fortunate to have experienced Villasin, Teovel and Tabimina. All I can say is Balintawak is not about techniques. It is reaction to whatever comes at you. What's the use of having so many techniques if you cannot pull it off in Real time.

Just my two cents.

Thanks - I am a Balintawak Student/practitioner myself (Elizar, Taboada, Tabimina, Roser) - so I am aware of this; my question just came up from a historical Point of view since I read about those "24/36 Techniques" in the above mentioned Article and was curious about what they are or how they are supposed to be applied...

Greetings from Germany,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf

[MacJ_007]

Thanks - I am a Balintawak Student/practitioner myself (Elizar, Taboada, Tabimina, Roser) - so I am aware of this; my question just came up from a historical Point of view since I read about those "24/36 Techniques" in the above mentioned Article and was curious about what they are or how they are supposed to be applied...

Greetings from Germany,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf

Just curious, how long did you train with Sir Bob Tabimina???

[Mono]

Just curious, how long did you train with Sir Bob Tabimina???

Unfort. only twice so far during my Stay in Manila in 06.

Just to make sure there are no missunderstandings: I am not a "direct Student" of all of the above mentioned Masters!
I mainly wanted to indicate that I have seen/experienced different Lineages of the Balintawak Family - and those are the Lineages I have been exposed to so far... :) (I could have added the Remy Presas Lineage but since the Modern Arnis is only "related" to the Balintawak and not taught as such I did not...)

My primary Instructor in Balintawak is Nick Elizar.

Yours,
Philipp Wolf

[guillermo taboada]

HELLO PHILLIP,
I MISSED YOU MY FRIEND, IT HAS BEEN 3 TO 4 MONTHS NOW THAT WE GATHERD AT NICK ELIZARS TRAINNING. TELL YOU WHAT, I HAVE A GOOD TIME IN CEBU, AND HAVE A GOOD TIME TRAINNING WITH YOU AND THE OTHER PRACTITIONERS. VERY HOT. HOPE TO TRAIN WITH YOU AGAIN FOR MY NEXT TOUR IN EUOROPE NEXT YEAR.REGARDS TO EVERYBODY,

YOUR FRIEND,
GM BOBBY TABOADA
www.internationalbalintawak.com (http://www.internationalbalintawak.com)

[Mono]

HELLO PHILLIP,
I MISSED YOU MY FRIEND, IT HAS BEEN 3 TO 4 MONTHS NOW THAT WE GATHERD AT NICK ELIZARS TRAINNING. TELL YOU WHAT, I HAVE A GOOD TIME IN CEBU, AND HAVE A GOOD TIME TRAINNING WITH YOU AND THE OTHER PRACTITIONERS. VERY HOT. HOPE TO TRAIN WITH YOU AGAIN FOR MY NEXT TOUR IN EUOROPE NEXT YEAR.REGARDS TO EVERYBODY,

YOUR FRIEND,
GM BOBBY TABOADA
www.internationalbalintawak.com (http://www.internationalbalintawak.com)

Hello Sir!

Great to see you here and I am looking forward to seeing you in Europe again! As soon as you have anything schedued I d be happy to know about it!!

I too had a great time with you and Nick! I am scheduled to be back in Cebu this comming July... hope the Weather will be OK at that time!
If things are goingt to work out as planned, Nick is going to be teaching at the 4th FMA Fetival in Boracay - I arranged connections between IMAFP and him and will assist him in his Teaching there... I am so much looking forward to the events and I am happy to see that Balintawak will again be Part of the Arts that will be taught at the Festival!
It was great training with you at the 2nd Festival in Dortmund, with GM Tabimina at the 3rd Festival in the PI and and I am sure it will be great with GM Nick at the 4th Camp!

I very much hope to see and hear from you again soon!

Greetings from Germany!
Philipp

[MacJ_007]

Unfort. only twice so far during my Stay in Manila in 06.

Just to make sure there are no missunderstandings: I am not a "direct Student" of all of the above mentioned Masters!
I mainly wanted to indicate that I have seen/experienced different Lineages of the Balintawak Family - and those are the Lineages I have been exposed to so far... :) (I could have added the Remy Presas Lineage but since the Modern Arnis is only "related" to the Balintawak and not taught as such I did not...)

My primary Instructor in Balintawak is Nick Elizar.

Yours,
Philipp Wolf

Hey Philipp, don't sweat it. You are fortunate to have trained with these masters and I'm glad that you are interested in Balintawak. I just asked the question because I wanna know how far have you gone with Sir Bob. I can pretty much estimate how far have you gone with his teaching, because I was a private student of his as well. But it will still depend on your absorption rate and your ability to adapt to his teaching.

Good luck with your training. Hope to meet you this July since I will be going home to PI too.

Jojo

[Soncen]

Hello to all...

This is a Question about "old school" Balintawak.

According to the Text below, the following "Counters" have been used/taught by Venancio Bacon:

Venancio Bacon said about himself that he knew 36 different counters to every possible attack. Of those 36 methods, 12 went with him into his grave. Only 24 were passed on.
Source: http://www.necopa.de/Style/History/Balintawak/balintawak.html

Can anyone elaborate on this Point?

How can I picture those "Counters"?

Does it mean something like:
1. Vertical Block and follow-ups
2. Direct Strike to the Hand and follow-ups
3. Evade and pass through and follow ups etc etc etc

or is it more like

1. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 1: Strike to the head &continue
2. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 2: Butt to the Hand & continue
3. "Standart Vertical Block" follow up 3: Disarm xyz... etc etc

Does anyone have further Information on what those "24/36" counters are and or how this has been taught?
Thanks for any Info!!!

Yours,
Philipp "Mono" Wolf
Concerning the 36/24 counters. Anciong could have not only those 36 counters but as many as he can be, what I mean to say is that if you have two counters for his attacks then he could have three counters for you in return so that when you 1000 counters, he counters you back 1001 and he would always be ahead of you.
-wilson

[manhattan1]

Hey Phil,
I am a practitioner (not an expert) of Balintawak. And am fortunate to have experienced Villasin, Teovel and Tabimina. All I can say is Balintawak is not about techniques. It is reaction to whatever comes at you. What's the use of having so many techniques if you cannot pull it off in Real time.

Just my two cents.

Hi Armas,

I am sorry to say it, but if it was GM. Ver Villasin that was your teacher within the Villasin style. Then you have not been training Villasin Balintawak (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak), he is the cousin to GM. John Villasin (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak) (not his brother) and not the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak).
Try to read here: http://www.fma-arnis.dk/FAQ_about_the_Villasin_Style

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk

[Carol]

We just had one thread that was locked for being too argumentative, along with a stern warning placed by one of the other admins.

I hope that warning has not gone unnoticed.

- Carol Kaur
- FMATalk

[manhattan1]

We just had one thread that was locked for being too argumentative, along with a stern warning placed by one of the other admins.

I hope that warning has not gone unnoticed.

- Carol Kaur
- FMATalk

I have done nothing then being honest and compare to how most people talked to me, i was very polite.... :)

I am not trying to make a big deal of it....
But let me ask you if it was the style you are within, would you not have done the same if you knew people was thinking they where training your style and claiming so because they have been mislead?

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/)

[arnisador]

But let me ask you if it was the style you are within, would you not have done the same if you knew people was thinking they where training your style and claiming so because they have been mislead?

(These comments are not directed at manhattan1 in particular.)

It sounds as though "mislead" may be a matter of opinion here. Everyone is encouraged to state their side of the matter, but everyone must do so in a polite and professional manner. We've seen "true lineage" wars over Modern Arnis, PTK, Sikaran, and other arts, some of which I had never heard of before. We can't let the board appear to be a battleground. Everyone finds these lineage arguments off-putting unless it's their own particular system at issue. We encourage everyone to state their opinion, but must insist that all strive to keep the conversation at a mature, resepctful level.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin

[okoy]

Hi Armas,

I am sorry to say it, but if it was GM. Ver Villasin that was your teacher within the Villasin style. Then you have not been training Villasin Balintawak (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak), he is the cousin to GM. John Villasin (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak) (not his brother) and not the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin (http://www.fma-arnis.dk/Villasin_Balintawak).
Try to read here: http://www.fma-arnis.dk/FAQ_about_the_Villasin_Style

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk

Manhattan1,

let us stick to the topic and avoid matters pertaining to the different techniques and styles of balintawak, ok? It's a good thing you stand up for your Grandmaster John Villasin but hey this is a way of exchanging good ideas and brotherhood of the balintawak clan. Don't try to make reactions that would somehow alienate your grandmaster john from other balintawak instructors. Just a friendly advice...