The Weapons that Made Britain.

[arnisador]

I posted on MartialTalk (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29903) about this show that I watched last night. It was the first of 5 hour-long episodes of this series on the Military History Channel (http://www.historychannel.com/military/). It focused on the sword as used in the War of the Roses (15th century England). Future episodes will cover other weapons, including the spear and longbow.

An expert in historical swordsmanship, Mike Loades, hosts the show in a way that is reminiscent of the History Channel's Conquest but with much more of a documentary flavor and less of a reality-show flavor. In this episode he discussed the types of swords, the need for strength and flexibility in a sword, sword-making, tactics, and so on, with an emphasis on tactics, and also described a particular battle in great detail (the 1471 Battle of Barnet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Barnet)).

A group of his students were trained in the use of the sword. It was interesting to see the techniques. One thing that was very noticeable is that they assume the use of a gauntlet, for they grabbed their own blade constantly for pommel-strikes and the like. Also, they were taught stances, then basic strikes, then they drilled in a standardized pattern that, in my opinion, could only be termed a kata. The instructor felt the pattern was important for ingraining the techniques and the transitions between positions/stances/guards. It could have been a Japanese martial art, based on the training methods!

Of course they practiced techniques in pairs as well. There was a segment on swordfighting from horseback and they drew extensively from certain old swordfighting manuals (though no English swordsmanship manuals from that period survive, they said).

They showed some historic swords, and tested swords against one another in cutting and thrusting practice (on a block of clay), and against a helmet. Since armor was worn, the sword was effectively a bludgeon rather than a cutting weapon. There was also a segment showing in some detail the forging of a layered sword. Seeing the twisted form that would be heated again, and seeing how it lead to the pattern on the sword after etching, was fascinating.

The battle itself--and why it lead to such a preponderance of swordfighting rather than artillery/archery carrying the day--was covered in detail, including the motivations of the opposing armies.

I really enjoyed this show, and am looking forward to further episodes. There are a few relevant links in post #4 in the thread on MartialTalk.

[Christopher Umbs]

A group of his students were trained in the use of the sword. It was interesting to see the techniques. One thing that was very noticeable is that they assume the use of a gauntlet, for they grabbed their own blade constantly for pommel-strikes and the like.

Many of those blades were dull just so one could use a half-swording grip. With full plate, you're not going to cut through so often only the pommel, quillions and the tip of the sword (often triangular and sharp on all 3 sides). You use the half-swording grip and attack the joints and eye-slot.

Chris

[arnisador]

Ah, I didn't realize that! So, this would be a safe technique bare-handed, then, or would you need a glove of some sort still?

For at least one sword, he said that you still needed the edge so it would "bite" into the armor...but I don't know how sharp such an edge would need to be.

(I had to look up quillons (http://www.dfoggknives.com/quillions.htm).)

[arnisador]

Last night I watched the episode on the longbow. It was not quite as interesting to me: Less testing, though they did fire it against armor (using a testing device to fire it, not a bow), less of the interaction seen in the sword-training segments, and a lesser emphasis on historical weapons and documents, though they did show some bows from about 500 years ago. It was still interesting, but the nature of the weapon didn't allow for the person-to-person excitement of the swordsmanship. It was very similar to the longbow episode of Conquest. However, crossbows were also discussed, and their effectiveness was compared to that of the bow.

The battle covered was fought in France in the 1300s as part of the 100 Years' War (the Battle of Crécy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crecy)):


Crécy was a battle in which a much smaller English army of approximately 12,000 men, commanded by Edward III of England and heavily outnumbered by Philip VI of France's force of between 30,000 and 40,000, was victorious as a result of superior weaponry and tactics. It was a battle where the effectiveness of the English longbow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow), used en masse, was proven against armoured knights. The French knights, in plate armour, were cut down by the bodkin arrows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodkin_point) as they charged the English position up a hill.

I believe there are three more episodes to be shown.

[arnisador]

We watched the episode on the lance today. It covered evolving usage of the spear from the time of William the Conqueror and his conquest of England, through the lance in the time of Henry III and the establishment of the first parliament (focusing on the Battle of Lewes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lewes)), and finally through pikes and the shiltron tactic in the time of Robert the Bruce. There was again less emphasis on training sequences and on specific aspects of the weapon itself, as the show focused on changing tactics used by the commanders and the changing nature of the weapon (held spear, held spear used while mounted, thrown spear, lance, pike). Still, once again it was well-done and interesting.


The next episode covers the shiled, and we already have it taped.

[arnisador]

Last night we finally watched the episode on the shield. They discussed different types of shields and shield tactics, in contexts including battle (particularly the 878 CE Battle of Edington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edington)), gentlemanly dueling (with bucklers), and so on. Once again, the shields were tested for strength by a British government weapons testing facility, and once again, historians were consulted as to the actual usage and importance of the weapons, and old museum pieces were shown.

I found the episode less interesting than some others; watching a group of people drill in shield wall tactics is a bit dull. But there was a fascinating segment on the (Swabisch?) German judicial shield, a somewhat cello-shaped device with hooks and spikes that was used for trial by combat (http://www.ahfi.org/articles/iucidio.php); there are some pictures here (http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/Talhoffer.php). (I have attached one such image.) A brief bit of training with that, as the host and his partner attempted to learn how to use the hooks to advantage, was very interesting. The all-too-short segment on the use of the buckler was also interesting.

As an aside, we also watched the episode of Conquest concerning tournaments last night, and they also discussed the shield in some depth.

[Christopher Umbs]

But there was a fascinating segment on the (Swabisch?) German judicial shield, a somewhat cello-shaped device with hooks and spikes that was used for trial by combat (http://www.ahfi.org/articles/iucidio.php); there are some pictures here (http://www.truefork.org/DragonPreservationSociety/Talhoffer.php). (I have attached one such image.) A brief bit of training with that, as the host and his partner attempted to learn how to use the hooks to advantage, was very interesting.


I always say that you have to be pretty pissed off at someone to attack them with a coffee table...

Chris

[arnisador]

Heh. Yeah, it does make me wonder who came up with that design idea...it's hardly natural. I guess for possibly untrained defendants you get a better fight if they are wielding clunky weapons that cover most of their bodies...I assume it prolongs the battle and better randomizes the outcome.

Watching them try it out was interesting though. I could see myself enjoying the intellectual challenge of figuring out its possibilities.

For those interested, the series is being repeated now, by the way.

[arnisador]

Tonight we watched the fifth and final episode, on armor. It discussed the arms race between offense and defense that led to the development of plate mail to replace chain mail. The discussion included the use of armor and archery at the Battle of Verneuil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verneuil) of the Hundred Years' War. Of course, armor was tested against arrows and other weapons at a weapons lab.

There was considerable discussion of striking to the joints between plates and using an awl-like weapon to deliver a coup de grace to fallen opponents. These aspects reminded me of the FMA--why do we strike where we do on certain strikes? The strikes fall at weak points of the Spanish armor. The discussion of visibility through visors reminds me of my complaints about limited visibility when using protective equipment in stick sparring!

This was possibly the least interesting of the five episodes, but did contain some useful information. Overall, we have enjoyed the series.

[Bob Hubbard]

Definately an interesting series. I've played a little bit with some of their ideas, definately fun stuff.

[arnisador]

Definately an interesting series.

I've heard that more episodes were made for braodcast in the U.K., but if so I haven't been able to find any more info. on it. I have also seen Mike Loades pop up on other shows, as in a Military History Channel show on archery, hosted by someone else, that I recently watched. He seems quite interesting. I wonder if he has a school, or if he trains stuntpeople, or what?

[arnisador]

On a related note, last night we watched the "Swords of the Musketeers" episode of Conquest. The rapier-and-dagger material was very interesting. The techniques are similar to FMA techniques in many ways. The block for the Modern Arnis #5 strike--tip down, stick roughly vertical and swept in front of you--was certainly in evidence, as were other standard FMA techniques. Of course, the lunge figured prominently here, and we don't lunge that much, but overall it was very interesting to see how much is similar.

[Apollo]

I've heard that more episodes were made for braodcast in the U.K., but if so I haven't been able to find any more info. on it. I have also seen Mike Loades pop up on other shows, as in a Military History Channel show on archery, hosted by someone else, that I recently watched. He seems quite interesting. I wonder if he has a school, or if he trains stuntpeople, or what?
IMDB http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1630274/

Article by him: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/lj/archaeologylj/chariot_10.shtml

"Mike Loades works professionally as an Historical Action Arranger and Fight Choreographer for television and the theatre. He also researches, writes and lectures extensively on the history of arms and armour and covers all periods from Neolithic to Napoleon. His own production company, Running Wolf Productions, has produced best-selling videos on the history of archery and swordfighting."

Found a video here: http://lazydragon.com/Merchandise/swordfighting.htm

[arnisador]

Hmmmm...if an Historical Action Arranger isn't a Fight Choreographer, what is it?

[arnisador]

On a marginally related note, from a fencing FAQ:
What sports and martial arts comprise fencing? (http://www.fencing.net/content/view/16/36/)

A description of the three weapons (foil, epee, sabre) and a list of other martial arts/sports that use the sword (both Occidental and Oriental). At the end, it says:



Lastly, it should be pointed out that stick/baton fighting, shield use, and related infantry tactics continue to be a part of modern riot police training.

[arnisador]

On a related note, last night we watched the "Swords of the Musketeers" episode of Conquest.

There is an episode of Conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_%28documentary%29) on pirate weapons that might be of current interest. They discuss the use of a short sword due to tight spaces and why the pistol was often pulled and fired in close quarters combat when swords were crossed. A quick left-handed draw-and-shoot dropped the opponent and allowed the pirate to move on. I recommend this episode if pirate swordwork interests you! As usual, one of the most interesting aspects is host Peter Woodward's discussion of why certain sword designs were preferred over others for the task at hand.

[Douglas]

If this is the show I think it is... Most impressive was a segment where was "miked", on horseback, galloping in armor, when he threw himself off the horse and landed on the ground in front of the camera, still talking about history. I want to be like that when I grow up! :)

[Apollo]

:) Thats the one. Excellent series.

[arnisador]

I remember that scene! But was it "The Weapons..." or Conquest? Yes, the host is quite serious eitehr way.

[arnisador]

A modern shield:
Candidate: Use Textbooks As Shields From School Shooters (http://www.koco.com/news/10105982/detail.html)

[arnisador]

Viking sword fighting practiced in Iceland (http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16539&ew_0_a_id=250097)


Members of Viking club Rimmugýgur fought with swords under the supervision of fencing trainer Phil Burtham in Hafnafjördur near Reykjavík last weekend.

“We had great fun and there were no accidents except for one bruised finger,” club member Úlfar Daníelsson told icelandreview.com.


Web site here (http://www.rimmugygur.is/).

[Bob Hubbard]

I always enjoy this series when I toss it in. The episode with bucklers gave me some ideas to play with.

[arnisador]

I always enjoy this series when I toss it in. The episode with bucklers gave me some ideas to play with.

I didn't know it was out on DVD. It's a good series.

[Apollo]

AFAIK it's not out commercially at the moment.

[Carol]

I always say that you have to be pretty pissed off at someone to attack them with a coffee table...

Chris

Yeah. And you do NOT want to be on the receiving end of that!! :D

[arnisador]

I enjoyed this German longsword technique:

Y3DhjFUOG6Y

[Silence_sucks]

Some of those techniques remind me alot of the kali staff work.

[arnisador]

Some of those techniques remind me alot of the kali staff work.

Especially in the second half of the clip, I was strongly reminded of FMA! There's nothing new under the sun.

[Gilla]

A friend of mine Guro and Akido teacher James Berkley say's it's all one art.
Eddie

[arnisador]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg

Great longsword video--I noted many FMA-style techniques, including a Modern Arnis #3 disarm!

[Armorer]

Those all look like great techniques except a bit too much focus on waiting for the other person to attack. Often times one would need to attack first in a real sword fight.
Also in many of those instances the person being countered could have simply stepped backward instead of freezing up or he could have changed the angle of the initial strike during the attack in order to get the opponent to counter the wrong thing. For example I have found a strike to the ribs can be made to look almost exactly like an overhead strike to the head but the same counter will not work for both.

I've found during actual sparring that most attempts to quickly step aside from a strike result in the opponent simply changing the angle of their attack to match the step.

Grabbing the opponents weapon can be a good idea if he lets you do it without him also grabbing yours. One time I remember grabbing my opponents weapon haft just as he also grabbed mine. We then simultaneously went for our back up clubs tucked in our belts and struck each others helms at the same instant to the amusement of the onlookers.

One thing I know for sure is waiting around too much for the other guy to attack first allows his team mates to gang up on you if their are any.
In my opinion it's best to attack first about 50 % of the time in order to keep the opponent guessing.

[arnisador]

Those all look like great techniques except a bit too much focus on waiting for the other person to attack. Often times one would need to attack first in a real sword fight.

I assumed that was for demonstration purposes, so I didn't give it much thought. Of course, seizing the initiative is so very important!

[arnisador]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=886065#post886065


I'm glad there's so much interesting discussion around the series. I was the Director/Producer who made the Shield Program. I thought you might like to know about a link to Mike Loades (http://www.mikeloades.co.uk/cms/index.php) - the presenter's website. In case you haven't come across it, there's also a mini website about the series on the Channel Four website (http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/W/weapons/).

Do let me know if you have any questions.

Best wishes,

Peter Sommer (http://www.petersommer.com/about-peter-sommer-travels/index.php)

[arnisador]

The legacy of British swordfighters lives on:

East End youngsters competing with the best (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071213/lf_nm/fencing_britain_dc)



Fencing, traditionally a sport of gentlemen, has attracted world leaders and royalty to its ranks over the years with its chivalry and status as the most swashbuckling and romantic of all martial arts.

It is still often regarded in Britain as a public schools' sport, but a group of youngsters from London's East End are donning the fencing whites and showing they can compete with the best thanks to their fighting spirit and desire to win.


Many of those who train at Newham Swords are from mixed ethnic backgrounds and single parent families and practice their sport in an area with the highest knife crime figures in London.


But the fencing club is also situated in the Olympic borough of Newham where much of the 2012 Games will be staged, including fencing.


It is 2012 that is acting as a spur for the 35 youngsters, possibly aware that Britain's last Olympic fencing medal was as far back as 1964.

[PG Michael B]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/77/350px-Millwallbricksteps.jpg

Now it may not be a gentlemanly weapon like the sword..but the old fashioned Millwall Bat has clobbered more than a few..LOL...one would be amazed at the efficiency of good old newspaper...a soccer hooligans dream!

[arnisador]

There are some free downloads of various Western martial arts books here (and cheap print versions for sale too), courtesy of Kirk Lawson:
http://stores.lulu.com/lawson

[Bob Hubbard]

Couple of sites that offer TWTMB in streaming format
http://www.stage6.com/Medieval-videos/videos/?notice=400
http://www.tvokay.com/documentary/the-weapons-that-made-britain.htm

Still unable to find it on dvd or vhs though. :(

[arnisador]

Mike Loades is now appearing in "Weapon Masters" as well. I started watching an episode last night on an Indian circular knife and it seems interesting!

[R. Mike Snow]

I watch the Military Cannel all the time as I drift off to sleep but never did stumble across Weapon Masters. Pretty cool....... Saw the episode on blow guns last night and I am already hooked. The Sumatrans also has a circular throwing knife used in ancient times I read about in an old Chinese chronicle. Anyone have any idea what it was/is called and/or what it looks like?

[arnisador]

Doesn't ring a bell! I taped the blow gun ep. but am still only halfway through the chakram ep. Mike Loades is very interesting even in something like this with a bit of a "reality show" twist to it!

[R. Mike Snow]

The Chakram (or Chackrum or Chackram or Chackra) is a metal ring that has been used as a throwing device by the Sikhs of India for many hundreds of years. The Sikhs became martial under Guru Govind Singh and used the Chackra effectively against the Moghul dynasty. The Chackrum has a history that is as old as Indian civilization itself. It's useage is embedded in Indian myth and legend. In the epics..the Mahabharata for instance...an asura trying to get heavenly nectar from the moon had his head chakra-ed off. Still he tries to swallow the moon and succeeds ever so often before the moon escapes through the cut neck...an eclipse myth. Sculptures and paintings of many gods and godesses show the chakra being twirled.

"In my youth there were people who practiced with different versions and sizes...twirling. throwing overhand and underhand. In the thrities and forties street thugs threw little chakras overhand and underhand in Calcutta." - Joy Chaudhuri

A small Chakrum is called a Quoit. The following illustrations show how the Quoit is thrown and how it can be ornately decorated. Sometimes the Quoit is inlaid with Silver or Gold. Often it is plain or has small incised decorations. The Quoit was often worn as part of a warrior's armour for decorative purposes.
http://www.flight-toys.com/rings/art/quoit.gif
The Quoit is generally 6 to 8 inches in diameter. It has a razor sharp edge and was thrown by twirling it around the warrior's index finger which was tucked in for the release. The Quoit was accurately thrown 60 to 100 metres. Two forms of the metal throwing ring exist. Chakkar Sada has a smooth and sharp outer edge. Chakkar Katavdar had a serrated outer edge.

I found this up in my closet while I waslooking for info on the Sumatran throwing disk. Still haven't watched the Chakram episod yet, have no idea if this little detail was on there. The Central Asian influences are so obvious the SEAMA systems, that's why I have such a huge interest in them.

[arnisador]

I wonder if we can make one and try it out? I was surprised how fast and hard they were able to throw it on the show--I thought it'd be too light for that.

[R. Mike Snow]

Do you want to start out with an aluminum a trainer so that we don't get cut trying out our new toys? I can get the aluminum for nothing and we can ask Brian Ridout to cut them out with his laser cutter. When I was going to ISU back in the 80's, yeas back in the 80's, there were a couple of guys I knew that used them in a similar fashion as the "wind and fire wheels" in Tai Ji. But those Chakrams were more than 5/8 of an inch on the iside diameter. Easy to get a grip on. One of the guys names was Pater, he was a student/graduate instructor under Dr. Jimbo & Dr. Heath. Dr. Heath used to teach at ISU and Rose-Hulman, Dr. Jimbo is teaching at Ivy Tech now too. I think I am going to stop by there next week some time after I heal up a little more. ISU was a martial and cultural haven back in the 80's since one of the only two international exchange offices was located on Cherry St. across the street from campus. That's how I met my first Silat instructor, Tony Teo from Sarawak, Malaysia.

[arnisador]

I heard that ISU used to be very active! It'd fun to try them--and starting with a trainer would be smart!

[arnisador]

I copied several of these posts on the chakram to a new thread (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=5693).

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin