Knife tapping,Balisong,Kerambit,Dumog

[longrange]

Hi DTS,

I have searched the net for further info on the DTS knife methods and keep only coming up with the tapping drill.Is there any other components to the DKT knife fighting techniques/applications? I understand that the tapping drill is a base for baisc disarms,Locks,counters and recounters.

Please does anyone have infomation if DTS covers the Balisong and kerambit in there curriculum?and are the Dumog techniques taught within mind that the person attcking you has a edged weapon ?

Thanks in advance.

[R. Mike Snow]

Hello longrange!

The Contradas(flow drills) are not the only training methods in our system. However, all techniques and other training methods evolve from the Contradas. Even though I feel that the Contradas are very simple and effective methods of building muscle memory for combative techniques. Many people have trouble combining footwork, body mechanics and hand manipulation, to perform natural fluid movements at first. But it isas natural as swinig a baseball, exucuting powerful attacks each and every time. For my own reference, I catagorize the Contradas into 2 groups, "give and take" & "Feeder drills". Performed with all the different blades, impact, flexible weapons of the system as well as empty hand. The Cotradas are practiced at all levels, crouching, kneeling seated, even in the guard position, stand up Contradas are for begining students. If your training partner drops rapidly in an attempt to land a punch, slash or thrust, you have to immediately lower your self to his level to conter. The Contradas are organized into a numering sytem as well, multiple 1 vs 1, 2 vs 1, 5 vs 1, 12 vs 8, 9 vs 9 Contradas, etc. All angles have Contradas covering slashes, punyos, thrusts, slash vs thrust, empty hand vs a weapon, empty hand, etc. There are multiple aplication for each Contrada as well. Contradas are our basic counter drills.

We also have intermediate flow drills called Recontradas to teach how to counter the counter. All of the above catagories and numbering systems apply to the Recontradas.

Another more advanced drill isthe Recontra, meaning to counter the Recounter. It is an infinitive method of training and techniques. After for learn the concepts and lean how to flow to the inside or outside of each angle of attack it becomes very easy to learn and retain the techniques. They actually become part of you. The goal is to build the speed, power, accuracy, coordination and muscle memory to exacute techniques as an impulsive reflex. GM Nene can sweep, hit, disarm and throw me before I even realize what happened. That is my goal. Sure, other people can hit me and take me down on occasion. But with them, I know what happend and how they did it and I felt it and saw it coming. It didn't come out of no where.............

We have coordination drills too. They are not different from the actual application either. They can be used in a combative situation. Some people call some of our drills, cutting drills. Since a majority on the flow drill we are taking turn attacking, deflecting and practicing cutting each other. This way cutting and stabbing some one becomes second nature, an actual reflex.

I almost left out the Ranging system. It teaches how to rapidly close the gap. How to effectivly engage your adversary at largo, advancing to medio and corto. Depending on the speed, stride and angel you are approaching each other, you might be able to go from largo to medio to finish him, largo directly to corto to finsh him or even side step the attack taking you from out of range stright into medio or corto to finish. Letting you go to the next guys. The options and variations are limitless.

As for the Dumog, all of the Domog techniques come from the Contradas, Recontradas and Recontras. All most all of our Dumog techniques come from knife techniques. We study locking more for the reversals than the locks them selves. Why should you hold on to someone that you are intending to kill? We have to stlyes of Dumog, combative and sport. The combative Dumog is part of both our blade and Paggamut tactics. Unlike other forms of Dumog, that are stick based. We always assume the adversays has a blade. It only enhances our sport Dumog. I fell that our sport Dumog is similar to Shuai Chiao with thestanding techniques and Shooto on the ground. But that is just my personal observation.

We do not have Karambit techniques, that is not an Ilonggo weapon. We have the Lugod, longer and thinner than the traditional Karambit that originated in Sumatra.

As for the Balisong, Master Sheilah Mae Tortal is the best Balisong practitioner I have ever witnessed. But to us it is just another knife. GM Nene does not prefer the use of a Balisong as a weapon, it takes a split second to open it. GM Nene tells us, "that split second could cost you your life". It is not an Ilonggo blade native to Negros or Panay, it is a Batangas blade.

I hope I have at least come close to answering you questions. These explainationsare from my personal experiences and perception. Everyone preceives everything a little differently.

God Bless, Mike

[gagimilo]

I was wondering if anyone out there could give us at least a basic outline of what material is covered in the instructiona lDVDs by GM Tortal that has been put out not so long ago...

[longrange]

Hi Mike,
Thank you for your help.It's good to know what materail you guy's cover and has helped me a great deal to understand DTS morel.I like GM Nene take on the Balisong and totaly agree.so pour knife work covers when you stuck on the ground too,great stuff.

Thanks for clearing up my question regarding the kerambit as well.I was a little unsure of its role in DTS as I have seen some PTK guys use them and didnt know if DTS used them too.

The non sports Dumog sounds great to me as some guys I have trained with in the past have forgot about the use of the knife when teaching Dumog to me and want to make it purely a grappling match untill I stab them with my training knife.

please can you give me any advise on the various bladed weapons that are cover in DTS curriculum and the tactics employed in there use. could I also ask if DTS has any of the footwork patterns similar to the pukulan pentjak silat systems that are used for throws/sweeps in pangamut?

Thanks in advance.
long range.

[arnisador]

I can certainly speak to the effectiveness of Mr. Tortal's dumog! He has some great stuff.

[longrange]

Hi Arnisador,
can you let me know more about the Dumog of GM Nene and/or the pangamut of DTS?

[arnisador]

Mr. Snow can better speak to that than I can! Mr. Tortal has demonstrated it on me and I'm a believer.

[longrange]

ok,thanks.

[R. Mike Snow]

Hello longrange and gagimilo.

That compliment coming means you Dr. Dumogero, with the grappling background you have!

As for the DVD's I can only speak for GM Nene's DVD. I have not had the opportunity to view Gm Jerson Jr.'s yet.

The "Basic Knife" DVD covers the basics Sunkiti method of the DTS knife.

The "Espada y Daga" DVD covers the basic movements of the Dekiti-Tirsia Siradas Espada y Daga.

The "Ranging System" DVD show one of the ranging methods for each of the basic 12 attacks. This DVD is my favorite, it gives a great overview of the basic DTS blade methods as a whole. If some some one has knowlege of just a handful of the Contradas, you can easily learn a lot from this video.

Guru Mitch Mayberry has these videos, his contact information is:

mitchmayberry@msn.com

If anyone is interested is the videos, you should contact Mitch soon, before a leaves for the Philippines again.

For the other vodeos By GM Jerson Jr. :

kalidkt_tortal@hotmail.com

As for Dekiti Sandat, I like to stick with the original / traditional ilonggo weapons of the system. the Lugo is every bit as lethal and beautiful a blade as the Karambit. Maybe even more so with its little longer reach and cutting depth. Ilonggo blades are so awesome functional and lethal that I personally see no need to adopt weapons from other cultures and systems to enhance the look and lethality of our own. Although, I do love the controverial Lampirong / Visayan Barung and the antique hybrid Kalis' from Negros and Panay.

DUMOG: DTS Dumog & Panggamut training starts with the very first Contrada and application taught to a student. Before the student even realizes that the same consets used to throw an adversary / training partner with a knife or the Punyo of their Baston. Then by training with the Contradas, Recontradas and Recontras at increasingly lower levels. My favorite techniques are the what I call "Extreme Corto" techniques. That similar to levers, brush knee and kneeling techniques used to trap the opponents limbs behind your knee to pummle or stab your opponents repeatedly, realesing the limb automatically as you stand back uo. After he stops moving of course....... I cannot elaborateof spcific Pukulan techniques since I have very little knowlege of that style of Pencak Silat.

God Bless, Mike

[R. Mike Snow]

Alot coming from you, sorry........

[arnisador]

Well, you've seen him drop me and roll me!

[Mangtas]

Hello, I'm new to this forum, found this site by accident while browsing thru a poster's link on a different forum. And I was pleasantly surprised to find a thread dedicated to DKS. I admit my FMA experience is limited since I come from an Aikido background, but I was very fortunate(unbeknown to me then) to have trained with Maestro Nene back in 98-99 while I was working in Manila. I was actually looking for an Aikido Dojo to continue my training, but after running into Maestro Nene outside the dojo, I decided at the last minute to enroll in his class instead. I didn't know who he was then, but as soon as I started doing drills with him, I knew he was for real, I could feel the power in his arms and the energy in his techniques and since most of the grappling and footwork weren't that different from my Aikido training, I took to his art like duck to water. Unfortunately, I didn't pay much attention to my knife training and was more fascinated with the short sword training, especially since the bolo and "Pinuti" is a common tool readily available in most household in the Philippines and the chances of going up against a bolo weilding assailant is just about the same as running into a knife weilding attacker.
But in hindsight, I have experienced his dumog(I didn't even know he taught this) during a demonstration we gave for the ROTC class of the University of Santo Tomas. When he found out I had an Aikido background and knew how to breakfall, he asked me to be his partner during the demo. I of course didn't know what to expect since I thought the demo was just gonna be about doing drills and disarms, but when he asked me to go all out and attack with full force(like a randori), boy was I surprised when my blade went flying and I followed flying a split second later onto the wooden grandstand floor, we went at it with me coming at him from all directions with stick, knife and sword and always the same result, my weapon flying and me on the ground with his knee on my face, to be honest, I was actually more scared of the blade landing on my foot than of me landing on my head on the wooden floor. I never even thought about it until I read a couple of your posts here about his Dumog, that's when I realized what those throws were, I always assumed he added the throws just for the demos to make em livelier, now I'm banging my head against the wall for being so blind. Too bad, I had to leave Manila after I quit my job in 2000, I haven't seen him or his son Jerson Jr. since. If any of you see him, tell him Mike says hi, don't know if he remembers me, but I'm sure his son Jerson Jr. will remember the guy who dropped a pack of c0nd0ms from his pocket while doing drills(boy was that embarassing) : P

[R. Mike Snow]

Mabuhay Mike!

And welome to the forum!

I am sure that Grand Tuhon Nene would remember you after the favor you did for him. I will forward your post to GT Nene and I am sure he will be in touch with you soon after.

Dumog and Panggamut are actually the 2 themes of GT Nene's upcoming tour to North America this year.

My primary background in in Judo, Aiki-jutsu and Shuai-Chiao, so I totally understand where you are coming from with the footwork. Especially with the Aiki-Jutsu and Shuai-Chiao being more linear in fashion than Aikido.

God Bless, Mike

[NAGA]

Hello Everybody,
Mike forgot to mention the "infamous" Picture of yours truly sailing through the air, while GM Tortal smiles. To be honest I had forgotten about that photo until it was posted on the DTS website www.DTSKali.com for those whom would like to see an example of what is being talked about. In reality Grand Tuhon is on a whole other level when it comes too Dumog. The day before the seminar we were at the Chicago Police Department Training academy and we were allowed to give a demonstration before the Defensive tactics instructors. The instructors asked about grappling and throwing and Grand Tuhon throw me OFF the training mats.

Thanks,
John

[R. Mike Snow]

Hello Brother John!

You must be talking about my all time favorite GT Nene Tortal photo. It's a true classic. I am sure glad that you allowed me to step down as the "number one fall guy". LOL I will get an html number for that photo first thing tomorrow and get on here for everyone else to enjoy as well.

Sulong and godBless Brother! Mike

[Brock]

We do not have Karambit techniques, that is not an Ilonggo weapon. We have the Lugod, longer and thinner than the traditional Karambit that originated in Sumatra.


Ever since I read this thread, this has been my new weapon facination. I can't find very muc info on it, but I'm sure it'll start popping up more and more with the popularity of the folding Kerambit.

[arnisador]

There's a picture of a lugod here:
http://www.pt-go.com/system_weaponry.asp

[R. Mike Snow]

Hello Brock and Arnisador,

I will get started on our long overdue Sandata page today. I will try to get as much done today as possible before I head out for a couple of weeks. All the blades featured will be from Negros and don't be disappointed when you won't see much of the Europeanized high gloss steel. You will be viewing the traditional flat gray Ilongo steel.

As for the Lugod, I have seen them all the way up to about a foot in length. Almost resembling a Karit(Arit).

By the way Tim, nice Binogon!

God Bless, Mike

[Brock]

Thanks guys! I believe Kris Cutlery had it in their catalog at one time under the Kerambit heading, but I can't seem to find one on there now.

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi Brock,

I can get you a Lugod from Talisay Negros, but it won't be until April.

God Bless, Mike

[Brock]

Thanks, PM me with a price (even if it's a rough estimate) and I'll let you know if I can afford it or not right now.

[MPC1257]

I don't know if this helps but you should check out http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/

These are all filipino crafted weapons of excellent quality, I love my Barong and will slowly be adding to my collection over time.

[Kali Cowboy]

I know for a fact that Mr. Snow can get you the real thing. Don't be fooled by look-a -likes. If he says he will have the blade April, I would wait and get it from him. I was very happy with my blades which came to me direct from a Grand Master.

God Bless,
Stephen

[Brock]

I don't know if this helps but you should check out http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/

These are all filipino crafted weapons of excellent quality, I love my Barong and will slowly be adding to my collection over time.

I've been to Ron's site before and his stuff looks great and I've never heard a bad review about any of the weapons. He has the more traditional kerambit. I found the lugod on the kris cutlery site (it was under Misc. Weapons), but it doesn't look all that sturdy. Which is pretty much the standard look of most of their weapons. In fact just on looks alone I'd pay the extra cash to get one of Ron's blades. His look like they can be used while the others look a little suspect.

[arnisador]

I know for a fact that Mr. Snow can get you the real thing.

Yup, he's got real connections in the Phil.!

[MPC1257]

I know for a fact that Mr. Snow can get you the real thing. Don't be fooled by look-a -likes. If he says he will have the blade April, I would wait and get it from him. I was very happy with my blades which came to me direct from a Grand Master.

God Bless,
Stephen

All of the weapons on the traditionalfilipinoweapons.com site are made in the Phipippines, they are definitely not look-a-likes. Go check for yourself.

Marty

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi Brock,

I guess it really depends on what you are lokiing for? If you want a real Lugod or Ginunting, they only come from Negros or Panay. If you want a real Tausug Kalis or Barong, they only come from northeast Borneo or the Sulu Archipelago, If you want a real Pira, they only come from Basilan, etc. Of course, I have a real bad name when it comes to Sandata, I am so pickey that my friends call me the "Sandata *******". As a matter of fact, I am so insistent upon authenticity and quality. I recieved a bunch of replicas from Manila about 7 or 8 years ago and I was so %^&&#@ off, that I used them for throwers to stick in the side of a barn.

I am not trying to discredit Ron by any means though, I looked at the site just now and the bladesa gorgeous.

I was also not trying to make a sale or turn GTT Nene's forun into an auction house. I was simply offering to do a one time favor for you with not intention for profit in mind. It was only going to run you about 30 bucks to get an authentic Ilonngo Lugod from the mountians right next door to Talisay, Negros Occidental. I planned on getting a handful anyway and telling you when they came in. No cash needed up front. It would be worth it for me, just so other people can see that Ilonggo Sandata is so awesome that there is no need to substitute other weapons from other cultures inside or outside of the Philippines.

God Bless, Mike

[silat1]

Mike,
Put me in for an espada ginunting about 9 inches long so I can use it with the contradas practice with my fresh meat students

[R. Mike Snow]

Gotcha covered Bill, Salamat!

[medic]

Mike can you put one away for me also.

Shaun

[Brock]

I was also not trying to make a sale or turn GTT Nene's forun into an auction house. I was simply offering to do a one time favor for you with not intention for profit in mind. It was only going to run you about 30 bucks to get an authentic Ilonngo Lugod from the mountians right next door to Talisay, Negros Occidental. I planned on getting a handful anyway and telling you when they came in. No cash needed up front. It would be worth it for me, just so other people can see that Ilonggo Sandata is so awesome that there is no need to substitute other weapons from other cultures inside or outside of the Philippines.

God Bless, Mike

Mr. Snow, I was just saying that I found the blade on Kris Cutlery. Looking at it though I personally wouldn't buy it from them cuz I think it looks like it wouldn't be functional and would definatly rather have one from you that was functional. I'm a little anal about my live blades being functional at least. I strive for 100% authentic, but I'll make small concessions as long as the blade is functional. 30 bucks plus whatever it would cost for you to ship it to me is not a problem at all, so put me down for one.

[MPC1257]

I'm sorry if a over reacted, I am new to forums and hope I did not offend anyone.
I am becoming very interested in FMA and am learning that I know next to nothing regarding the Philippines, particularly the cultural differences found in their martial arts and weaponry. I am sure that there are excellent sources for filipino weapons, it's just that I'm so new to the art that I could easily get burned by a nice looking site and end up with crap.

This probably isn't really the proper thread for that type of discussion though. Is there a thread devoted to filipino weapons?

Thanks
Marty

Marty

[Brock]

Marty- Ron's stuff (the site you posted) is quality work. I was commenting on the weapons from another site. The way I worded it though wasn't the best, so there was a little confusion I think.

[R. Mike Snow]

Hey Marty,

Don't feel bad about anything.......... Feel free to dicuss and compare blades and styles, that's what these threadsare for. I just didn't want anyone to think I was geedily trying to make a sale.

Got'cha covered Brock.......

See everyone in a couple of weeks........

God Bless, Mike

[MPC1257]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
And Brock: There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time. But this is a beginning..
Robert Jordan RIP

[Brock]

Thanks Mike I really appreciate it! I personally never got the impression you were trying to make a sale, more like when my wife says, "Hey, I'm running to the store. You need anything while I'm there?"


Thanks, I appreciate it.
And Brock: There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of time. But this is a beginning..
Robert Jordan RIP


As far as I know you're the first to catch that. I've got mixed emotions about the release of book 12...

[GLENNLOBO]

i looked up lugod on google and got some weird linux stuff. are they the Filipino kerambits as described, or are they different, and how so?

I found the lugod on the kris cutlery site (it was under Misc. Weapons), cant see it there? have they gone?

many thanks
Glenn

[silat1]

i looked up lugod on google and got some weird linux stuff. are they the Filipino kerambits as described, or are they different, and how so?

I found the lugod on the kris cutlery site (it was under Misc. Weapons), cant see it there? have they gone?

many thanks
Glenn

Glenn,
There are a couple of karambit designed tools in the Philippines, but not quite the same design.. One version that comes to mind is the sanggot which has a curved blade at the end of a small stick usually the size of a palm stick.. It is primarily used for coconut husking and with some variations of the length of stick, could have been a sickle design..

[GLENNLOBO]

thanks for the photo Bill.
slightly bigger than the kerambit!!

there is a similar weapon, much smaller called a sabit which is for cutting grass, and the celurit.. a favourite weapon in madura.
the Indonesians also have a lawi ayam- cock's spur, which is more angular than the Kerambit and designed to be held in a different grip. i am a great fan of the kerambit so like weapons that are similar and am interested in their uses.

i'll try to dig mine out and photo them for you if youre interested.

regards
Glenn

[Brock]

Mike, could you PM me your contact info and, so I can send you my home address and get shipping info for the Lugod?

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi Brock!

mike@dtskali.com

[R. Mike Snow]

http://dtskali.com/images/temp/885.jpg

Here is the highly detailed comparison photo of a Lugod(top) and Karambit(bottom) that I have benn promising for months.

[Tunnel_Rat]

My dear friend Mike Snow. This is from Karl B in Boston. With all respect to you sir, there are Korambit tactics in Dekiti. Its just a matter of translating what we do with other weapons. You are correct that the Korambit is not an illongo weapon, but the lagut (spelling?) is...its the Filipino word for Korambit. I myself have trained with Tuhon Nene with a lagut and for me a most basic principal of Dekiti is that anything can be used as a weapon with our methods. Infinate techniques with infinate possibilities is something Tuhon Nene has said to me many times. I've been working on a set that emphasises Translation of any weapon and I hope someday we can meet so share info. Take care my friend

[R. Mike Snow]

Hi Karl,

Nice to hear from you man.....long time since we have spoken. I too have been told in the past that Lagut was the Filipine/Philippine word for Karambit but GT Nene said that he prefered that I use Lugod. Not sure, but it almost seems like Hiligaynon has more than one sub diatlct or if certain words have just changed over time. Like "Binagon" in Panay, GT spells it as "Binonggong" in Negros and then Binagon became Ginunting.

You are also correct in stating that the techniques were developed to wield any type of weapon. I have often discussed how in our system that we move around the blade as much as we move the blade its self. It was obvious from the start that the system was developed to swing weapons of extreme weight like an axe. Well, come to find out that axes and hatchets are part of our Sandata and the Binagon is also a wood cutting implement. I was fortunate to obtain an old Binagon from Panay that is capable copping wood equal to an axe. It is over 3/8 of an inch in thickness, just over 26 inches in overall lenght and weighs 3 lbs. 1 oz. I don't know of too many people that could swing a blade of that capacity proficiently without the techniques we use.

One thing is for sure, after spending a full year of the last three with GT Nene, the more I lean, the more I realize I don't know any thing.

[Tunnel_Rat]

I hear ya man, about the more you learn and not knowing anything. When I learned Tuhon Nene's Espadia dagga set in '06, I actually did it wrong for a whole year. When I went back for my instructors course, I realized after a month and a half of doing it every day what I was doing wrong.... I had to forget everything I was practicing for a year and learn to do it right in 2 weeks for my evaluation....but it taught me so much about translation and doing the blade safely. Every weapon translates, but there are some subtle differences. For me, its like a combination of learning how every weapon is different and practicing them differently, and learning a basic safe way to use all weapons withough having to think about it. Tuhon Nene's Espadia Dagga system, if you look closely, can teach you that very well...among other things. Take care my friend

K

[David43515]

I was wondering if anyone out there could give us at least a basic outline of what material is covered in the instructiona lDVDs by GM Tortal that has been put out not so long ago...

What DVDs? I`ve been looking for them.

[R. Mike Snow]

Here is Mitch's email, Mitch has some low budget DVD's to give you some foundation. I cannot speak for Master Jerson's, I have not ever seen them. GT Nene's new DVD series will be out in July 2010.

mitchmayberry@msn.com