VMA Balintawak clip [Archive]

VMA Man

01-22-2008, 01:44 AM

Hi all,

Check out the new Balintawak clip from Visayan Martial Arts in Australia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWPeRdsE8o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWPeRdsE8o)

Cheers,

VMA man

arnisador

01-22-2008, 10:38 PM

Neat! Thanks for sharing!

pguinto

01-23-2008, 06:11 PM

Here ya go, VMA Man. i made the clip readily accessible here for ya...
- thats a very nice clip, i really like it
- here's another one of my other fave balintawak clips. Being an Amboy, I can only decipher about 1/3 of what the instructor is saying. However, i can pretty much figure out what he is demonstrating by following his movements:

6fWPeRdsE8o 1fjFU5t4XIY

VMA Man

01-27-2008, 07:02 AM

Thanks pguinto,

Love your work, glad you like the clip. Nice clip on Henry Jayme there too!!

If I'm lucky enough to get back to Chicago I'll look you up bro (I've got an Ex-Pat mate there), I love Twin Anchors & Heaven on Seven (& the microbrews LOL), great town.

Scott Brailey

01-27-2008, 07:41 AM

Yo VMA man, I'm the guy on the right for the first minute or so.

Apologies for the footwork people, I tore ligaments in my ankle snowboarding three weeks before this was filmed so I was still quite tentative on it. This part of the clip was from a Filipino Festival held in Sydney in 2007. I'd also had 4 San Miguels and a pound of Lechon by this late stage of the afternoon so apologies for any wobbly boots too LOL.

Scotty

arnisador

01-27-2008, 01:41 PM

Apologies for the footwork people, I tore ligaments in my ankle snowboarding three weeks before this was filmed so I was still quite tentative on it.

A good reminder that it's very hard to judge someone via video clip!

Scott Brailey

01-29-2008, 06:13 AM

I had only been training twice a week (2hrs per week) for 8 months at this stage too. So much for the grouped method hey!!

Robert Klampfer

01-30-2008, 01:46 AM

Off-topic, but...

Any of you VMA folks connected with the person using the name "VMAbalintawak" on YouTube?

Robert

FalconAgentx44

01-30-2008, 08:00 PM

VMA Man IS both YOUTUBE username: VMABalintawak09 & VMABalintawak

THE ONLY REASON WHY I AM POSTING THIS HERE IN FMATALK IS TO USE THIS MEDIUM TO BRING THIS MATTER ABOUT. IF THIS PERSON BELIEVE THEIR TEACHER JOHN RUSELL IS BETTER THAN ALL THE ORIGINAL SENIOR BALINTAWAK INSTRUCTORS WHO LEARNED FROM ANCIONG BACON, TEOFILO VELEZ, JOSE VILLASIN, AND OTHERS, THEN SO BE IT, "MY VERY BEST OF LUCK TO VMA Man, I'M GLAD YOU FOUND A TEACHER WHO CAN INSPIRE YOU SO."

YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINION...... BUT PLEASE DO NOT GO ABOUT POSTING NEGATIVE COMMENTS ("TROLLING AROUND") ON YOUTUBE AND THE INTERNET SAYING TABOADA IS NOT GOOD, HE DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO CLIP AND SO ON & SO FORTH. DO NOT GO AROUND "BAD MOUTHING" THE OTHER BALINTAWAK MASTERS AS WELL.

THAT IS VERY DISRESPECTFUL! THESE SENIOR INSTRUCTORS & GRAND MASTERS OF BALINTAWAK WORKED HARD, THROUGH BLOOD, SWEAT & TEARS THEY HELPED PRESERVE THIS BEAUTIFUL ART. YOU ARE VERY UNGRATEFUL AND THAT IS A FACT! RESPECT THE ONES WHO CAME BEFORE YOU MATE!!!

P.S.

I WILL NO LONGER CONTACT THIS PERSON THROUGH ANY MEANS, WHETHER IT BE HERE ON FMATALK OR OTHER VENUES, SO ANY QUOTE HE POST HERE THAT HE SAYS IS FROM ME WOULD BE TOTAL LIE. I REST MY CASE.

I PAY MY RESPECTS TO ALL OF YOU. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

- FalconAgentX44
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

Evidence Exhibit #1:

MY OWN message to VMABalintawak09 which I posted on the same youtube clip which he NEVER "approved" and posted:

From: FalconAgentX44 [videos (0) | favorites (0) | friends (0)]

Sent: January 28, 2008

Message: Your teacher John's "agak" is good. My "agak" would slightly differ from John's, I would throw in more variation. I agree with "juramentado" If that part of Australia can use more good Balintawak teachers like John, then I am willing to migrate.

footnote: *juramentado was another youtube username who posted on the same video clip.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___

Evidence Exhibit #2

Message I received FROM VMAbalintawak09 sent through my YOUTUBE account last January 29th after my posting to his video clip, and I quote:

From: VMAbalintawak09 [videos (1) | favorites (0) | friends (0)]

Sent: January 29, 2008

Subject: Show me your agak bro??

Message: Hey mate, I am VMA Man from FMATALK. You can also see some of my youtube videos under username VMABalintawak. Show me how your "agak" is better than Johns and I'll post your comment. Yeah your agak. Not your instructors, your agak. Who do YOU train with?
I've trained with Taboada personally and know John is better than Taboada 100 times, I have students who trained directly under Gaabucayan and Tabimina and they also feel the others PALE in comparison to John. Even the famous Velez brothers from Cebu whom John has learned from cannot compare. The only person that comes close is Henry Jayme and Timoteo Maranga, well that old chap is dead now, Maranga I mean. Crikey! May he rest in peace. If you have better bro, show me(if you can), Then I'll post your comment. Until then.....
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

Evidence Exhibit #3

subject is this video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWPeRdsE8o

comments lifted from YOUTUBE on this video clip:

PinutiKeris (4 days ago) could we know the name of the Feeder chap ?? and which Balintawak lineage is this ?

VMAbalintawak09 (3 days ago) Sorry PinutiKeris what do you mean by Feeder Chap? Regarding Lineage: John Russell is our head honcho. Studied thru Henry Jayme thru Teofilo Velez thru Timoteo Maranga. John has also trained under Raymond(Moonie)Velez and Celso Amora Mabalhin(Who trained under Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui).

juramentado (6 days ago) cool.....u need balintawak instructors in australia..i want to migrate...is it possible?
help me°! ;-)
__________________________________________________ _____________

Evidence Exhibit #4

subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uyw...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related)

see related comments on this YOUTUBE video:

Comments & Responses

Show: all comments excellent (+10 or better) great (+5 or better) good (0 or better) average (-5 or better) poor (-10 or better) Help (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#) Change this to see only comments above a certain value.
Change the value of a comment by clicking on a thumb.
Post a video response (http://www.youtube.com/video_response_upload?v=47uywKffT_k)
Post a text comment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#)

VMAbalintawak (http://www.youtube.com/user/VMAbalintawak) (1 week ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#)

If Robert actually started to clip there is no way any of this could happen. This is watered down Balintawak

jA7 (http://www.youtube.com/user/jA7) (5 months ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#)

thank u GM Bobby T!
thnx for posting...

creasy8 (http://www.youtube.com/user/creasy8) (5 months ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#)

are those random movements or choreographs?

smoogie18 (http://www.youtube.com/user/smoogie18) (7 months ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k&feature=related#)

INSANE

View all 4 comments (http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=47uywKffT_k&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3D47uywKffT_k%26feature%3Drelated)

__________________________________________________ _____________

Evidence Exhibit #5

subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc

Comments & Responses

Show: all comments excellent (+10 or better) great (+5 or better) good (0 or better) average (-5 or better) poor (-10 or better) Help (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#) Change this to see only comments above a certain value.
Change the value of a comment by clicking on a thumb.
Post a video response (http://www.youtube.com/video_response_upload?v=STOVXMCVZVc)
Post a text comment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#)

tagacebuako08 (http://www.youtube.com/user/tagacebuako08) (4 days ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#)

VMA Balintawak pag practice usa pag-ayo parts...kay siguro ko layo ra kaayo imo nahibaw-an kay sa kang Bobby.

Ikaw realist1972...membro ka sa Rabid Dog Arnis ??? hehehhehe! Ayaw mo sigi panaway --- AMEN

VMAbalintawak (http://www.youtube.com/user/VMAbalintawak) (1 week ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#)

wildcat2210 no offence but try finding a REAL Balintawak teacher. One that teaches you to clip. It's for your own protection mate. Bobby looks great because his training partners don't know how to clip and control his attacks. It's a Balintawak FUNDAMENTAL he appears to have forgotten!!!

wildcat2210 (http://www.youtube.com/user/wildcat2210) (4 weeks ago) Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#) Hide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STOVXMCVZVc&feature=related#)

This is GENUINE Balintawak Cuentada Escrima, I am a student of Grandmaster Bobby Taboada. He is the nicest man in person, and is definitly a great example for other martial artists. He's the best, no questions asked.

__________________________________________________

END.

Soncen

02-01-2008, 02:35 AM

Hello everyone,

I just want to share some personal opinion about the teaching in the Teovel Balintawak Arnis. As a teacher of the art we follow the teaching method of Mr. Velez which he imparted to his twelve commissioned teacher (Bobby Taboada is one and the other is my teacher Teofilo V. Roma). Mr. Velez never teaches to clip because it would only expose the fighter to a judo lock and easy bare hand counter attack.

There are other people aside from the twelve who studied under Mr. Velez although most of them completed the lessons but there are still some who did not finish the complete lessons up to the advance level. Teachers of the Teovel Balintawak or the practitioner can easily detect the big difference in some demonstrations and you will notice only group # 1 was applied and all the rest is at random palakaw only.

I don’t know but if those were all that some had learns then I can only say that the Teovel Balintawak self-defense they learn is only about 10% although they could be 100% accurate in their other martial art know how. This is only to inform of the correct teaching of the Teovel Balintawak Arnis and no malicious intention.

Wilson

Robert Klampfer

02-01-2008, 04:50 PM

I don't know about all of that other stuff that's been mentioned since I posted. I guess FalconAgentx44 took my post to be a springboard to go off on a tangent. People can say what they want. I don't care much about that. Telephone calls have already gone around between the U.S., Philippines and Australia about what's been said and I'll do well to leave it in the hands of the people who have been slandered. Those sorts of things get worked out behind closed doors; not on the Internet. That's enough about that...

I just want an explanation from 'VMAbalintawak' of what this "clipping" is supposed to be and why it's supposed to be so spectacular. I've been around more Balintawak than just Bobby Taboada and I've never seen nor heard of anyone else making a big deal of anything called "clipping". I'm hoping that someone here is close to 'VMAbalintawak' and can get me an answer.

Robert

teovel'sBalintawak

02-02-2008, 11:39 AM

No offense just a reminder.. Velez balintawak have clippings and all techniques or applications have counters it just depends how you execute and how good your timing is. In groupings like group 1,2 and 5 are preparatory patterns design for clippings. Clipping applications are not encourage to beginners because it can stagger the flow ( palakaw). But later in the advance clippings will also be emphasize when the students reaction and sensitivity are already very good. Clipping application is one of balintawak's trademark the term " kumpitkumpit or suyopsuyop. For more explanation go to Ayala Cebu Business Park every Sunday and look for Monie Velez my teacher he explain to you the details of the clipping application.

Best Regards

teovel'sBalintawak

02-02-2008, 12:50 PM

No offense just a reminder.. Velez balintawak have clippings and all techniques or applications have counters it just depends how you execute and how good your timing is. In groupings like group 1,2 and 5 are preparatory patterns design for clippings. Clipping applications are not encourage to beginners because it can stagger the flow ( palakaw). But later in the advance clippings will also be emphasize when the students reaction and sensitivity are already very good. Clipping application is one of balintawak's trademark the term " kumpitkumpit or suyopsuyop. For more explanation go to Ayala Cebu Business Park every Sunday and look for Monie Velez my teacher and he will explain to you the details of the clipping applications.

Best Regards

garrotista

02-02-2008, 01:54 PM

Clipping techniques is applied by the feeder and defended/countered by the student in Group 1 of the Teovel Balintawak agak. Group 1, which is termed Lifting and Clearing, teaches the student how to defend & counter against grabbing/holding of the garrote. Clipping is a type of grabbing/holding. Group 1 is the students first intro to defending/countering clipping, then can be applied in all Groupings (as a variation to that specific Grouping), with the exception of Group 4. The usual follow up techniques to a clip is a strike: by stick, elbow, head, hand, butt, thrust, etc. Another purpose of clipping, is to change the tempo & momentum of the agak. By changing the cadence of the agak, the student learns not to anticpate, and the feeder also learns (but thats another topic). For the record, Velez bros, Nene Gaabucayan, Tabimana group, & Bobby Taboada (as seen from video) has clipping in the agak/teaching method. Clipping is inserted in the agak at the prerogative of the instructor. By teaching this technique the student learns how to defend/counter, the feeder learns how to apply and counter the counter. There is a counter for every technique...I wish I knew them all!

Robert Klampfer

02-03-2008, 12:29 PM

teovel'sBalintawak and garrotista:

Thanks for the replies. I know the concept of the clip. However, I'm thinking there must be a difference in terminology between what we call a clip and what 'VMAbalintawak' calls "clipping". It seems like a technique all its own since he makes such a big deal out of it. I'm hoping that he'll put something on YouTube to show us all what it is he's talking about.

Robert

garrotista

02-06-2008, 04:13 AM

Robert,

After reading comments posted by VMAbalintawak, and watching VMAbalintawak video clips, his understanding of Balintawak is like the substance of his words: unintelligent, and ignorant. Analyze the movements in the video, and you see both student and teacher with impaired body mechanics: clumsy, awkward, and handicapped foot work. When the feeder is disarmed by his student, he continues the agak as if he's holding an invisible stick. Absolutely no adjustment of body mechanics, and counters. Now the agak is barehands vs. stick, the feeder should have (among other things) ducked under or #12 side step to avoid the student's counter strikes. Not stand in front of the strike and block with an invisible stick. Or, close the gap, and end the agak. The perfect circumstance to demonstrate the feeder's understanding of how the agak can develop one's bare hand skills & body mechanics. In conclusion, read and watch VMAbalintawak, and be humored. Do not expect to have an intelligent discussion or a mastery demo of escrima/arnis. Another clipping technique, is the use of the punyo to trap / control your student or attacker's stick, perhaps leading to a disarm. This is inserted in Teovel group 5. Clipping is a universal technique, and is not exclusive to Balintawak.

regards to GM B. Taboada

free2flow

02-06-2008, 06:14 PM

Clipping is a universal technique, and is not exclusive to Balintawak.

I agree, in fact I remember seeing GM Felimon Caburnay in a video did a technique which they call/label as “magnet” which is similar to a version of what Teovel Balintawak practitioners call “clipping”. When GM Caburnay did this technique, his partner will be outbalanced going forward and sometimes will fall on his knees exposing the partner’s back of the head for GMs abaniko strikes.

Soncen

02-09-2008, 04:00 AM

Mr. Velez had researched well on the teaching method for easy learning and application and he developed the group method of which I can agree that it could be a steppingstone for the application of the clipping (what I mean to say in clipping is putting the opponent’s stick or arm or the head or the empty hand in the armpit or in between forearm).

But Mr. Velez did not teach or adapt the clipping technique (a universal technique according to some) but he only follows the style of Anciong the inventor of the Bakintawak style and enhance the teaching method, hence his brand of Balintawak was called TEOVEL taken from his own name.

In Snatching, there are lots of clipping techniques you can apply but the Teovel Balintawak practitioners can show how easy it is to be stick-locked, so anyone who clip would only give the opponent an opportunity for an easy counter-attack although re-counter could always be applied.

But Mr. Velez once said why prolong the fight and give your enemy an opportunity to defend and counter, when you can finish the fight in a shortest possible time by way of the “cuentada” technique.

deke

02-09-2008, 08:46 AM

Vincent
Thanks for your précis of the VMA video. Where is yours so we can offer it the same scrutiny?
"Analyze the movements in the video, and you see both student and teacher with impaired body mechanics: clumsy, awkward, and handicapped foot work."
Are we talking about the first few minutes of video? Instructors footwork seems fine. Simple and balanced, isn’t that what Balintawak footwork is all about?
“When the feeder is disarmed by his student, he continues the agak as if he's holding an invisible stick.”
I think you missed the point. Body mechanics is unchanged when the instructor loses the stick because isn’t the "stick only the extension of the arm." Although in a real fight (if you have the time) you might change your body mechanics the instructor is just trying to emphasise a point.
“Absolutely no adjustment of body mechanics, and counters.”
That’s the point.
“Not stand in front of the strike and block with an invisible stick.”
Look closely, instructor used a forarm to block. Valid technique at close quarters in my opinion.
“the feeder should have (among other things) ducked under”
Duck at close quarters you’ll end up eating a knee. Do you mean slipped which is a more appropriate boxing (and Balintawak) term. Ducking also moves the centre of gravity closer to the front foot (poor body mechanics).
Lets face it, your critisism isn't about style or techniue it's just about the fact you have taken offence at the comments of an overexuberant student of another lineage.

deke

02-09-2008, 09:07 AM

Robert

Clipping is clipping. Bobby Taboada's Balintawak comes from the same lineage as the guy in the VMA video.

Another important note is that the guy in the VMA video trained with Bobby Taboada in the late 1980's (before anyone from the US knew who he was).

malcolmk

02-09-2008, 01:52 PM

Not sure but are you (Vma balintawak) referring to clipping as being the temporary trap of the stick whilst you counterstrike? A little like this clip (excuse the pun) here?http://members.lycos.co.uk/nickelstick/

garrotista

02-09-2008, 06:01 PM

Deke,
Appreciate your counter-to-counter point to my post. Yes, you are correct I have taken offense to the comments of an "overexuberant student," otherwise, I would not bother to critique a VMAbalintawak video clip. My motivation to write a critique on "style/technique" was not due to over exuberance, butVMAbalintawak09's poor judgement in his comments, "I have students who trained directly under Gaabucayan and Tabimina and they also feel the others PALE in comparison to John. Even the famous Velez brothers from Cebu whom John has learned from cannot compare," taken from previous thread. After reading this, I share the same sentiments as others: this was very disrespectful, especially to the Velez bros. The agak that John Russell learned from & is teaching, is based on the research/ experience of 'Noy Teofilo Velez. Monie Velez even instructed John for a short time. That said, I felt, as a Teovel student from the Velez bros: Monie, Eddie, & 'Nong Chito, as well as, Nene Gaabucayan, to respond with a critique on the "style/technique" of the John's agak. This is my opinion, I'm sure others will agree, I'm sure others will not. The video speaks for itself, viewer's like myself will evaluate the agak based on the skill level/knowledge/experience of their instructor/s, as well as, their own insight.

deke

02-10-2008, 02:25 AM

The clip is control of the instructors stick after the initial student block with the instructors stick cradled between the thumb and palm of the students alive hand. It is not a hold or a grab. The student if they grab the instructors stick is taught through a open palm strike to the shoulder (which would be a punch to the head in a fight) not to hold the stick or a number of other painfull variations. The clip also allows the instuctor to withdraw his stick for another strike keeping up the freewheeling nature of the play.

Clipping serves a number of purposes:-

1) following just after the students block with the stick the clip helps disapates the force and then clears away or down the instructors stick.

2) Maybe more importantly the clip is about developing sensitivity in the alive hand to the power and flow of your opponents weapon. How well you clip is an indication of the level of control and feeling you have for the opponents power. This is why when it is done well it looks like Wing Chun Chi Sao.

3) An effective clip (if your fast enough) can turn into a disarm. Free2flow clipping is not the same as what you call magnet in Lapunti. I trained with GM Ondo and its more of a lever/grab pull.

4) Not Balintawak but like above the clip could turn into a sharp pull with the opponent unbalanced moving forward leading to an empty hand/elbow strike or into a grapple. The pull could also get the opponent thinking and moving towards a counter for an expected disarm.

Robert Klampfer

02-10-2008, 06:06 PM

deke

02-11-2008, 08:06 AM

Robert

I think you are being a little unfair. Understandable considering some of the inflammatory comments floating around about your instructor.

VMAbalinawak is clearly a student of John Russell NOT John Russell himself. I do not know who this guy is as I stopped training with John about 10 years ago. No comment in any of this thread can be attributed to him and it would be libellous to say otherwise.

"The formerly verbose commentary from the VMA Aussie contingent"

Contingent implies more than one. I am unaware of any personal correspondence; however, on this forum and also on UTube it appears that it has only been one person making these comments.

"I also don't need to have a third party telling me about someone claiming to have trained with Bobby Taboada 20 years ago. If everyone who ever attended a seminar or trained for a few months with Bobby and then claimed they were "trained" by him, as if to imply they were an expert, were in fact "trained" by him, the list would be very, very long."

Please do not misquote. John Russell trained WITH Bobby Taboada this included attending some seminars and some private lessons 18-20 years ago. John Russell had already studied Balintawak extensively under Henry Jayme. This said, there was no implication of extended training with Bobby in my statement. John in any discussion with me (we had numerous conversations on the topic) never stated an adverse opinion of Bobby Taboada either personally or in terms of technique. My personal recollection of Bobby Taboada was that he was a knowledgeable, skilled and humble man; I know John had a similar opinion. However, this being said it was clear that the curriculum which I was taught (which was described by both Henry Jayme and John Russell as Teovel's Balintawak) varied considerably from what Bobby Taboada was teaching. There is no inherent criticism or slight in his statement.

As you correctly state in your post a few seminars and private lessons doesn't mean that someone has been trained BY Bobby Taboada. IMO it does (can) mean that an Instructor/Senior Student from another Balintawak school can get a taste for the curriculum and method of instruction of another school or instructor. John’s opinion was that what he saw was a curriculum which was more suitable for group instruction which was at odds (to the one on one) with what he had been taught. The two person drills which were part of the seminars were nowhere as effective as learning from an instructor (This was my assessment also). This in no way reflects on Bobby's personal skill.

The VMA Balintawak curriculum (as it was 10 years ago) was (almost) totally orientated around the instructor student unit. It is MY belief (and I guess those that taught me) that this lays at the heart of good teaching and the philosophy of Teovel's Balintawak and in truth all schools of Balintawak.

"Everyone else there seems to have clammed up."

Who is everyone else? "VMA Balintawak" is an individual.

From another of your posts

"However, I'm thinking there must be a difference in terminology between what we call a clip and what 'VMAbalintawak' calls "clipping". It seems like a technique all its own since he makes such a big deal out of it."

I will repeat Point 2 of my previous clipping post. Clipping is about tactile conditioning so that you feel and can respond to the power of your opponent. To do it REALLY properly you need great skill and finesse. Clipping as a technique is only a very small part of control of your opponent’s weapon hand but (in the whole) is a key principle of Escrima. Ever seen GM Cacoy Canete's control the weapon hand?

Now if you read the post CAREFULLY you will see an explanation of where VMABalintawak's comments MAY have come from. Yes, it's speculation but I bet it's on the mark. You can offer Bobby my personal apology for any offence.

"My instructor bets your instructor" crap is just that. Inflammatory comments seem so pointless and serve no useful purpose. No one is going to jump on a plane over words (however, impolitic, inflammatory and rude).

Cheers

David Eke

free2flow

02-11-2008, 11:16 AM

Robert Klampfer

02-11-2008, 09:14 PM

David:

I'm not quite sure why John Russell's name got thrown into the mix here. I don't know him, have never talked to him, nor brought his name into this. My issue is with 'VMAbalintawak'.

I want him to explain himself directly, in a public setting - the same way he saw fit to make his public comments elsewhere. I really don't care to hear any other explanations from anyone else or any excuse-making for him. Here is where many Balintawak people visit, although they may not post here, hence why I brought this up here in the first place. I really don't see how I'm being unfair with regards to that. I'm not the slightest bit upset about his comments about Bobby. Bobby takes care of himself and certainly doesn't need me to defend him. What I am irritated with is someone using my name in their numbskull comments. The longer this goes on, the more irritated I become. It's really quite simple: I want satisfaction - either in the form of a retraction, explanation, or demonstration.

Enough about that...

For the record, and for the benefit of everyone who reads here, I'll explain the backstory of this video clip: http://youtube.com/watch?v=47uywKffT_k.

Regardless of what the title says, it's not a sparring demonstration, nor was it ever intended for distribution. There was a conceptual idea of producing a new video disc emphasizing the requirements for the completion of Bobby's curriculum. That concept never came to fruition. What is shown in that video clip is basically a camera, lighting and sound test done by Paul Falcon (note the blue screen and lighting to eliminate background shadows).

That segment was flimed at about midnight, after we'd been going for about five hours. Paul filmed hours of video of miscellaneous things in the vein of "let's do this and see how it looks on video". Bobby wanted to practice his targeting and Paul kept the camera rolling so that he could monitor the video and lighting, as well as keep us in frame. I was Bobby's training bag ("Ro-bert, can I hit you a little bit?"). Watch, and you'll notice that I kept my left hand high on my chest during the hitting. That was intentional so as to give a clear target, avoid potentially having my hand banged up and to keep my elbow out of the way. There was no clipping and movement was done at about half speed.

Paul put a bit of polish on that particular segment out of all of the video that had been shot that night. Again, as a demonstration of what the video would look and sound like with a little post-production work applied to it. Many people who saw it liked it, and it apparently found its way onto YouTube. Personally, I never really cared for it because it was not intended for distribution. However, other people enjoyed it and it became a promotional piece for a project that was never finished.

That's the story.

Now, where's 'VMAbalintawak'?

Robert

P.S. - It would appear that I didn't read FalconagentX44's (RIP) diatribe carefully enough. I found this gem - "Message: Hey mate, I am VMA Man from FMATALK. You can also see some of my youtube videos under username VMABalintawak." I'll send him a PM and an email.

Rich Parsons

02-12-2008, 01:43 AM

Well, no fewer than five people except 'VMAbalintawak' have responded. All of the discussion is well and good but, I want to hear it from him. Everyone else can only speculate about what he may or may not have meant. He made the comments so, I'd like his explanation.

I also don't need to have a third party telling me about someone claiming to have trained with Bobby Taboada 20 years ago. If everyone who ever attended a seminar or trained for a few months with Bobby and then claimed they were "trained" by him, as if to imply they were an expert, were in fact "trained" by him, the list would be very, very long. However, everyone who has been fully trained by Bobby, and therefore qualified to comment about such, is listed here: http://www.internationalbalintawak.com/community/index.htm. That list is rather short.

I notice that this has generated some interest from at least one new board member in Australia. Everyone else there seems to have clammed up. Someone else there must know who 'VMAbalintawak' is. The formerly verbose commentary from the VMA Aussie contingent seems to have ended since my initial post here. Curious...

Robert,

This is meant as no disrespect to you or Manong Bobby. I do know those that claim to have learned his system and or argue about the art of Balintawak from just a seminar or two from back in the early to mid 90's. I know this happens to most of the larger organizations and or instructors that teach in the seminar format. Just because they do it does not mean it is right though.

I do hope you get an answer from the poster in question as I also would like to hear it from his own point of view.

Thanks

Robert Klampfer

02-13-2008, 10:47 PM

Robert,

This is meant as no disrespect to you or Manong Bobby. I do know those that claim to have learned his system and or argue about the art of Balintawak from just a seminar or two from back in the early to mid 90's. I know this happens to most of the larger organizations and or instructors that teach in the seminar format. Just because they do it does not mean it is right though.

I do hope you get an answer from the poster in question as I also would like to hear it from his own point of view.

Rich:

Oh, there are definitely people who do that sort of thing. There was one guy who attended one (ONE!) weekend seminar and within a few months was holding himself out as a Balintawak master under Bobby. As you know, the community is very small and word came back very quickly. That didn't go over too well.

Straying even further off-topic but, people often don't seem to grasp the concept of the seminar format as Bobby uses it. A seminar is an opportunity to see it up close, experience it for a time, see some of how it's taught, and be able to take away some things that may be applicable to whatever art they study. Bobby does not teach by seminar nor award ranks or standing by seminar attendance. If you want to fully learn, you have to go to a qualified instructor. Anyone who thinks they can attend a few seminars and truly grasp the art or teaching method is delusional.

Robert

deke

02-14-2008, 05:17 AM

Robert

"A seminar is an opportunity to see it up close, experience it for a time, see some of how it's taught, and be able to take away some things that may be applicable to whatever art they study......Anyone who thinks they can attend a few seminars and truly grasp the art or teaching method is delusional."

Have to disagree. 20 years as a secondary school teacher it takes me about 5 minutes in someone else’s class to get a real feel for what is going on. I think its the same for the MA's. O.K. you don't know the ins and outs of the curriculum but you get a real taste of what’s going on.

Here is an electronic copy of my handwritten notes from a seminar of Bobby circa 15 years ago.

12 basic strikes (same target and numbering)
Counters same as Teovel’s Balintawak. Less emphasis on control of weapon hand.

Bobby T wider stance. Front foot forward of shoulder. Back foot not parallel, looks like a half Karate stance (sometimes widening into full). Didn’t bend the knees to centre. Full body into strike almost turning side on. Doesn’t close range. Always finish with a florish but not on the target like hitting point.

Simple two person pattern 12 strikes and counter. Stationary no footwork. Clip not emphasised.

Didn’t correct footwork of helper (with light shin kick) when demonstrating. Helpers footwork all over the place. Finished with a Teovel disarm 1

Pretty sure I had a second page but can’t find it. The notes where not meant as a criticism, just noting technical differences in style between what I was taught. I did get the impression that the curriculum wasn’t centred around the instructor student unit but class instruction. Am I wrong? Also I got the impression from the way Bobby was talking his major teacher was GM Velez? Does he teach the logical order of Teovel Balintawak e.g. 12 strikes and counters, Group 1 – 5, end plays, pull and pull, disarms, hitting point and palakaw?

On another topic does Bobby Taboada know and teach the single and two person patterns of Tat Kun Tao taught by Jose Millan?

“Many people who saw it liked it, and it apparently found its way onto YouTube. Personally, I never really cared for it because it was not intended for distribution. However, other people enjoyed it and it became a promotional piece for a project that was never finished.”

Got the Balintawak Cuentada logo on it. It says something about the people that liked it. Bobby does do some hitting point and ends with a disarm but it doesn’t showcase his obvious skill. Why don’t you put some good vids of “give and take” on youtube and as you say not be “training bag”

Robert Klampfer

02-14-2008, 10:27 AM

20 years as a secondary school teacher it takes me about 5 minutes in someone else’s class to get a real feel for what is going on. I think its the same for the MA's. O.K. you don't know the ins and outs of the curriculum but you get a real taste of what’s going on.

The operative words being "feel" and "taste". Again, seminar instruction is not the same as private instruction.

I can't really comment on your notes, as they're your personal observations and I wasn't there. I will offer this - every Balintawak instructor I've encountered has been different in some way even though they're all ultimately from the same lineage. All have their own personal style. Bobby, Nick Elizar, Teofilo Roma, the Velez brothers, Nene Gaabucayan, Zack Taco all have their core similarities and also their differences. I attribute that to adaptation and evolution. Many times you can tell where a persons instruction came from by watching them move. They'll move similarly to their instructor but, have a style of their own.

I did get the impression that the curriculum wasn’t centred around the instructor student unit but class instruction. Am I wrong?

That would be incorrect. By necessity, seminar instruction is group instruction. And perhaps "instruction" is too strong a word. Maybe "group management" would be a better phrase. Full instruction is one-on-one. No way around it.

Also I got the impression from the way Bobby was talking his major teacher was GM Velez?

Correct. He lived with the Velez family.

Does he teach the logical order of Teovel Balintawak e.g. 12 strikes and counters, Group 1 – 5, end plays, pull and pull, disarms, hitting point and palakaw?

If that's the order then yes, it's very similar. Bobby came from that lineage but, doesn't teach under the Teovel's flag. He left the Philippines shortly after the Teovel's chapter organization was established. He modified some of what he was taught and further refined his curriculum. Some things are taught somewhat differently than the way he was initially shown how to teach them. Some of the particulars of the groups are slightly different but, the core methodology is still there. Again, experience and evolution over a 40 year period.

On another topic does Bobby Taboada know and teach the single and two person patterns of Tat Kun Tao taught by Jose Millan?

I don't know if he knows it or not. If he does, he hasn't taught it to anyone that I'm aware of. I'll ask him the next time I see him.

Got the Balintawak Cuentada logo on it. It says something about the people that liked it.

I'll not read too much into that. I don't care to speculate much about why people like it or not, other than perhaps it's because Bobby and I are so handsome.

Why don’t you put some good vids of “give and take” on youtube and as you say not be “training bag”

Sorry, I don't do the YouTube thing. If anyone in Australia is looking for some "give and take", I suggest you look up Garth Dicker in Melbourne. He's a qualified instructor under Bobby. Seeing something on YouTube is nothing like experiencing it in person.

Robert

Rich Parsons

02-14-2008, 10:04 PM

Rich:

Oh, there are definitely people who do that sort of thing. There was one guy who attended one (ONE!) weekend seminar and within a few months was holding himself out as a Balintawak master under Bobby. As you know, the community is very small and word came back very quickly. That didn't go over too well.

Straying even further off-topic but, people often don't seem to grasp the concept of the seminar format as Bobby uses it. A seminar is an opportunity to see it up close, experience it for a time, see some of how it's taught, and be able to take away some things that may be applicable to whatever art they study. Bobby does not teach by seminar nor award ranks or standing by seminar attendance. If you want to fully learn, you have to go to a qualified instructor. Anyone who thinks they can attend a few seminars and truly grasp the art or teaching method is delusional.

Robert

Robert,

Like I said I agree they are out there. And I will be quoting or using your comment about Delusional. :) ;)

Thanks

deke

02-15-2008, 06:53 AM

If anyone in Australia is looking for some "give and take", I suggest you look up Garth Dicker in Melbourne. He's a qualified instructor under Bobby.
Did he train him when me was living in Australia and NZ or later? My work sometimes takes me to Melbourne I'll look him up.

Didn't know Nick Elizar has been to the US or does that mean you trained in Cebu? John Russell has trained with Nick and as a favour has some info on his website http://www.visayanmartialarts.com/nickelizar.htm (http://www.visayanmartialarts.com/nickelizar.htm)

John also trained with Monie for awhile but was already an instructor under Henry Jayme in the late 1980's early 90'.

Any of the pictures I have seen of Velez, Villasin and Bacon show them in a short stance/posture, feet no more than a shoulder wide apart. I have also seen video taken in 1987 of Velez which shows a consistant short stance. Henry Jayme (one of my instructors) was a student of Velez has and teaches a short stance. I was always of the opinion the short stance was one of the features of Balintawak.

teovel'sBalintawak

02-15-2008, 03:30 PM

3) An effective clip (if your fast enough) can turn into a disarm. Free2flow clipping is not the same as what you call magnet in Lapunti. I trained with GM Ondo and its more of a lever/grab pull.

Deke,

You are right the lever/grab pull is different from the clipping but you can combine it. In Teovel's Balintawak we call (lever/grab pull) the pulling technique application . We have a lesson called the push and pulling. Pushing is the preparatory of any stricking applications like elbow and punching while pulling is for the grabbing. All FMA have these techniques but have different emphasis or flavor. Pulling application is a very good entry for the take downs. Lapunti and Balintawak came from the same source Saavedra. They both evolved as years go by but are all very effective.

deke

02-15-2008, 08:22 PM

Deke,

You are right the lever/grab pull is different from the clipping but you can combine it. In Teovel's Balintawak we call (lever/grab pull) the pulling technique application . We have a lesson called the push and pulling. Pushing is the preparatory of any stricking applications like elbow and punching while pulling is for the grabbing. All FMA have these techniques but have different emphasis or flavor. Pulling application is a very good entry for the take downs. Lapunti and Balintawak came from the same source Saavedra. They both evolved as years go by but are all very effective.

Yep, taught between end plays and disarms. Do you know Henry Jayme?

GM Felimon Caburnay (Lapunti) credited his brother with (most) his training not the Saavedras. Lapunti differs dramatically from Balintawak with the former being very circular (with lots of abaniko striking) and the later linear. He was associated with Doce Pares but had a falling out and formed his own club.

If you wanted to see the connection with the Saavedras and Balintawak you could go to Junquera and find Celso Mabalhin who was taught stick and dagger by Jesus Cui. Apart from being a Doce Pares GM he also taught combat judo. Great man who passed away in 2000. :-(

teovel'sBalintawak

02-17-2008, 11:16 PM

Yep, taught between end plays and disarms. Do you know Henry Jayme?

GM Felimon Caburnay (Lapunti) credited his brother with (most) his training not the Saavedras. Lapunti differs dramatically from Balintawak with the former being very circular (with lots of abaniko striking) and the later linear. He was associated with Doce Pares but had a falling out and formed his own club.

If you wanted to see the connection with the Saavedras and Balintawak you could go to Junquera and find Celso Mabalhin who was taught stick and dagger by Jesus Cui. Apart from being a Doce Pares GM he also taught combat judo. Great man who passed away in 2000. :-(

Deke,

I heard of Henry Jayme but have not meet him in person. Henry Jayme studied Teovel's Balintawak in the early or mid 80's. My teacher Monie Velez the son of the late GM Teofilo Velez also have trained Jayme up to the advance and John Russell briefly.

Arsenio Caburnay the older brother of Filemon Caburnay the father of Prudencio "Undo" Caburnay was a student of Saavedra. Lapunti means (Labangon Punta and Tisa) . Venacio " Anciong" Bacon was also a student of Saavedra. After Bacon separated from Doce Pares one of his student Eduardo Baculi Sr. offered him to train in his house. His place was in Balintawak Street located downtown in the city of Cebu. Thats where the name of the Style was created.

Both styles have their own respective specialties and are both very effective. Balintawak have also a version of the Abanico we call it Tumbada. It differs a little bit of how it is being executed. Like I said it is how both systems evolve as years go by.

Jesus Cui was one of the very skilled but low profile person. He was known for a very good stick fighter and a combat judo expert as well. Not only was exellent on both stick and combat judo he was also very good in chinese martial arts(the internal style).

deke

02-18-2008, 05:12 AM

"I heard of Henry Jayme but have not meet him in person. Henry Jayme studied Teovel's Balintawak in the early or mid 80's. My teacher Monie Velez the son of the late GM Teofilo Velez also have trained Jayme up to the advance and John Russell briefly."

Henry must have been training with Teofilo Velez up to 1987 as I have a picutre of him acting as his assistant at the 1st World Instructors Seminar in Cebu City, August 1987. Was Monie or Chito there?

" Lapunti means (Labangon Punta and Tisa) "

Yes I know; more importantly its only part of the name of the system with the other part being Arnis de Abanico. I spent time with Ondo Caburnay in Panagsama with him trying to show me why Lapunti was superior to Balintawak. Wasn't convinced at all but was polite. The key difference is Lapunti is (circular including the footwork) and Balintawak linear.

"His place was in Balintawak Street located downtown in the city of Cebu."

Near Gaisano Metro, downtown. Spent almost a year living in Cebu. :-)

"Jesus Cui was one of the very skilled but low profile person. He was known for a very good stick fighter and a combat judo expert as well. Not only was exellent on both stick and combat judo he was also very good in chinese martial arts(the internal style)."

My point was that Celso Mabalhin was trained by Jesus Cui (who was also a training partner of Bacon). Up until 2000 he was a living link between the Saavedras and Balintawak. I met and trained with him on John Russells recommendation (who had trained with him too) His stick and dagger was the same (with slight variations) as Teovels 12 basic strikes and counters. Very easy to learn if you knew Balintawak. He also taught what he called combat judo in his back room on the concrete floor which was a little tougher.

Henry Jayme taught me the single and two person patterns of the Tat kun (tou) tao but I would have to say didn't think it has the same practical basis as Balintawak. The single person patterns are quite simple to master.

deke

02-18-2008, 05:12 AM

Scott Brailey

02-24-2008, 07:44 AM

Point 1) Robert asked:
Off-topic, but...
Any of you VMA folks connected with the person using the name "VMAbalintawak" on YouTube?
Robert

The reply from a man or person who has been discredited on this forum who has nothing to do with the VMA in Australia who has now been discredited by the administrators of this forum as being from California replies with a bunch of posts from You Tube and he has the nerve to doctor them in an attempt to tar several names with the same brush.

Why are some people on this forum still referring to this discredited persons post?
To Clarify.
I do not know who VMA Balintawak on "You Tube" is period. I have asked around as has John Russell. Someone has made an account and used a very similar name to the one in which I posted a video. It is true an email was sent to Falcon AgentX44 by VMA Balintawak09 (ME) but it differs greatly to the one the discredited Falcon AgentX44 has posted. The Actual comment he made to our video and the ACTUAL response given is below.

FalconAgentX44 (3 weeks ago) Show Hide
Reply | Remove | Block User | Approve | Spam
New Comment (Pending Approval)
With all due respect, I agree with what juramentado stated, it does appear that they DO need balintawak instructors in the area of Australia where this Mr. John Rusell is from.
His "agak" looks like girly BATON TWIRLING.

Sent: 29 January 2008
Read: 30 January 2008
Subject: Show me your agak bro??
Message: Hey mate, Show me how your "agak" is better than Johns and I'll post your comment. Yeah your agak. Not your instructors, your agak. Who do YOU train with?
I've trained with Taboada personally and know John is better, I have students who trained directly under Gaabucayan and Tabimina and they also feel the others PALE in comparison to John. If you have better bro, show me(if you can), Then I'll post your comment. Until then.....

As you can all see from the above it is my personal opinion and the opinion of my students who spent extensive time training in the Philippines that was directed to another individual making an attack. It is My Opinion and the opinion of these other students that Johns method of teaching is superior and it is a shame it had to brought here in such an inflammatory fashion by FalconAgentX44.
This FalconAgentX44 person has chosen to add his own negative comments in an attempt to entice conflict on this forum. It appears he has been successful with a great number of you. His broken use of the english language should have been a clear giveaway. No-one in Australia would say "Better than Taboada 100 times"
VMA Balintawak could be one of the many students John has trained in over 17 years as a Balintawak instructor.

Point 2) On Clipping
At a seminar in November 2007 held by GM Taboada after watching the demonstrations by GM Taboada and his training partner I asked the question (During question time when the seminar was called to an abrupt halt 45 minutes earlier than advertised)
"When does clipping come into play?"
I asked the question as it quite evident to myself and the other VMA instructor present that the student/instructor from Bega NSW of 7 years experience was not clipping any of GM Taboadas attacks.
GM Taboada replied over a 10 minute period with the following answers to my question on clipping:
1) Clipping is DANGEROUS
2) Clipping is ADVANCED
3) Clipping is for DUMMIES
So perhaps VMA Balintawak is someone from the seminar or someone who has heard through the grapevine what was said by GM Taboada.
GM Taboada seemed to know EXACTLY what I was referring to when I asked him the question about clipping. Perhaps some people that don't know should ask him.
Hopefully you will get a clearer answer than I did and can post it here for all our benefit.
You are assuming this VMA Balintawak person is on this forum thanks to the lies of the discredited FalconAgentX44.You can choose whatever name you want on these forums as well as on You Tube and unfortunately it can be used as a way to attempt to discredit certain individuals and groups as FalconAgentX44 has done so here.
You will probably have more luck finding the WMDs in Iraq than you will in finding an individual who probably doesn't even know this forum exists.
As for advice on clipping please see the below article by John Russell published in the Philippines premier martial arts magazine Rapid Journal March 2007 given to me by permission of John Russell to explain the ACTUAL VMA view on clipping.
So to answer your question Robert I don't know who VMA Balintawak is but if I find out I'll let you know. It won't be behind closed doors either.
Did I take offence to someone saying my footwork sucked - It did. If you have video posted you can expect positive and negative critique. Unfortunately most people do this critiqing behind a pseudonym. If you don't like the videos of yourself on You Tube ask the person who posted them to remove them or to have the sense to set the video so comments must be approved. Otherwise you have to put up with criticisms based on what people see. You should be comfortable enough in knowing yourself how good you are. Oscar Wilde once said "There's no such thing as bad publicity"
I don't feel the need to explain my absence from this forum either. I prefer to spend my time both training and with my family than staring at a computer screen.

Cheers,
Scotty
--------------------------------------------
John Russell 2006
The Importance of the Empty/Livehand of Arnis/Escrima
Clipping/Grabbing, Disarms/Locks and Punching
Of Grouped Balintawak

Many Arnis/Escrima (A/E) schools always seem to be concentrating on the stick, with how fast and flashily they can spin and zip it around. Some are
forgetting or simply don’t understand the importance of the live or emptyhand in fighting. They are especially forgetting the emptyhand use of clipping/grabbing/locking both the arm and/or stick, the body/shoulders of the opponent and the knockout punches by the emptyhand that can be used in fighting. The stick whizzing around looking fantastic, flashy and fast, with very little use of the emptyhand, may be what some people think as proper A/E training, but is it the appropriate training for what a human being will do in a real fight?

Clipping/Grabbing
Is clipping/grabbing important in a fight?

Have you ever seen a game of Rugby League or Rugby Union? You know, the physical intimidation games played on an open field with no head gear, (they always taught me to enjoy pain). Have you ever seen or been involved in a Rugby fight? The men involved will often, well, quite always, grab their opponent and bash/punch into them, always to the head, with their best hand. This to me, is one of the greatest examples of spontaneous violence and real fighting. I have even seen drivers at car race meetings both wearing full face motor cycle helmets try to hit each other to the head, when in a violent rage or confrontation.

Why do human beings instinctively grab and then hit to the head? Good question, but I am sure the answer is why for sports, organisers take the instinctive grabbing away from boxers by putting them in boxing gloves, mostly ensuring longer fights for peoples paid entertainment, i.e. the spectators will get their monies worth, it will not be over in a few seconds. If you allow people/humans to grab each other and hit each other hard, one or both will fall down, as they can’t move from each others zeroing in tactics, the grabbing. The aim of grabbing is to immobilize the opponent, enabling better hitting power and
better contact, so your best hand can bludgeon the opponent’s computer centre, the brain. So clipping in Arnis/Escrima, especially in the Grouped Balintawak style I teach, has the effect of immobilizing the weapon or weapon/best arm, the thing you must stop, as some Martial Artists from other styles try to do.

Remember the old law or One of the Physical Principles of A/E:
Weapons interchangeability using the same arm movements.
Let us twist this around here to an emptyhanded school against a weapon, then for us to go back to stick against the stick.
With most Martial Arts emptyhanded schools such as Karate, Jui Jitsu and Hap Ki Do, teaching emptyhanded defence against a weapon or knife, teaches the student to block and GRAB or secure the weapon or weapon arm, then disarm. (Disarms Later). With A/E, the stick should block and more importantly the emptyhand should always clip/grab/check secure the weapon or weapon hand, as if not restrained, the weapon will simply be redirected to hit or pulled back to re-attack.

Students in Balintawak A/E (well my Grouped Balintawak school) are initially, always taught to block all over with the stick (or the best arm), then the emptyhand will always clip/grab. The students stick/best arm immediately counter strikes hard, back to the neck/head of the attacker/instructor, in a downward motion of an almost forty five degree angle. Grab and hit to the head is an important part of Balintawak, much like the explosive/instinctive emptyhand fight in Rugby of, grab and hit to the head. This clipping in A/E of the opponents stick/best hand with the emptyhand makes it harder for the instructor/attacker to build up momentum with their weapon or best hand.

Momentum is something you do not want your enemy to build in a real fight. Sure, there is a the Pak Gung of Balintawak (A harder and faster attack or feint and redirection back to the students head) but the student has, through proper training, learnt to automatically react and counter back to the head/neck with the stick/best hand and has nullified the instructors spinning Pak Gung stick redirection to the head. The student should always employ instantaneous response of a hit back to the head/neck. The emptyhand of the student/defender in Pak Gung by not being able to grab/clip the faster attack, will (having
been trained to), move their emptyhand back to guard their own head, (Hopefully not guarding the chest, like some schools of Arnis). Then on the next strike by the instructor, the student must try even harder to grab/clip the weapon or weapon arm. STOP the opponents momentum or you are dead.

The instructors emptyhand in Grouped Balintawak has several duties in basic training. Before the Pak Gung moves and also after them, it’s most common duty in teaching the student, is as a focus mitt for the students return strike during the simple training routines. The stick in a Pak Gung move, acts as a punching bag target for the student but initially is also a redirect strike to the students head for the instructor, if the student does not instantaneously respond. The students counter strike, being properly executed to the attackers head, is now a block, with correct timing.

Some Balintawak schools are unfortunately, now not teaching, do not know or are ignoring this clipping/grabbing and are also ignoring a hard hit back to the
opponents neck/head (in a forty five degree, downward angle). They prefer the student hitting back to the instructors stick on a flat pane, (to wherever the
stick may be) or on a flat plane almost over the instructors head, allowing the instructor to more easily defend both with their stick and emptyhand which allows a momentum build up. They are joining the ranks of what they see as the more successful, commercial styles and schools teaching stickfighting only and the emptyhand serving very little importance. This not clipping/grabbing by some schools, enables them to be able to move flashily from one set of moves, back to the same set of moves, or to another series of stick buzzing manoeuvres.

Some, while teaching stickfighting only, are also simply using wrist motions to make their strikes and routines faster in more of an Abanico type of strike. Abanico, translates to fan strike, a strike using more of the wrist to generate power to the end of the stick/weapon. With a weapon/stick, it can only take a small Abanico strike to open up the opponents face with a strike. While this is good if you are armed, (and the opponent does not know the defences against the Abanico strikes) take the stick away and try to practice Abanico strikes with the fist as the striking point. It simply does not work. Abanico’s are simply a stick variation on striking in A/E. With the real teaching of A/E you must power up for the strike by pulling the weapon hand back to the body.

People often say, “I don’t want to learn A/E, as where do you find a weapon in an emergency. Carrying weapons (in most countries) is against the law”. Translate your training to emptyhanded and you will see if your school is teaching you stickfighting only, or a complete Martial Art that can be used with or without tools. Balintawak was never meant to be pretty but a realistic attempt to teach real fighting, both with a weapon/stick and emptyhanded.

The importance of clipping was illustrated when I was training with one student from another Balintawak school, while I was the attacker or leader. He did not clip at all. This allowed me to easily move and redirect my weapon, (after the initial contact with his blocking weapon), less than an inch around and under his emptyhand to strike him. This redirect counter while not a full power strike, would enable me to set the student/opponent up, for the powerful finishing off strike to the head, that I would deliver while the student is in pain and distracted into not defending properly. I redirected my counter several times and then I asked him after we played for a little longer, why he didn’t clip. He said to me “We do not clip for at least a year and are then taught to clip. It is more the flow that our instructor wants.” This guy however, had been training with his instructor for over five years. To me in Balintawak, the flow comes from the student doing their defensive and attacking moves properly, not letting someone get away with an attack and redirect
counter by not clipping, ALL THE TIME. With clipping an attacker cannot redirect. The attacker must pull the stick back out of the defenders grip, to again properly strike the student. This is not fast and pretty however.
One thing that this statement from this student did, was disappoint me. Learning A/E for one year (or longer) and then throwing that years training away and learning something new, is like learning boxing for a year, then having said to you by your coach “Throw what you have been taught away, now we are going to show you the real way to box.”

One of my instructors of A/E from Leyte, (not Balintawak), a former Manila Cop, then a Malacanang security officer, (Filipino Presidential security), a Los Angeles city Cop and then a parole officer at Solidad prison in California, always said to me “If you can’t learn to fight in a year, go and buy a gun. Something or someone is holding you back. Either it is yourself or your instructor.” Is this what is happening here?

Another reason that some instructors of Balintawak and even other A/E styles like the flow generated with no clipping, is that these flows are great for partner demonstrations. Not fighting or combat training but impressive moves in a demonstration. In real fighting (if you are attacked), you grab the weapon or arm, the torso , the shoulder or the head of the opponent. If you have grabbed the weapon or weapon arm, you try to immobilise it, stun the attacker to make them more pliable (this may knock the opponent down), get rid of the weapon (disarm), finish the guy off (if he continues to attack, by knocking him down), then get the hell out of there before his friends or the authorities arrive. It’s simply, cover up, grab if you can, push, shove, most importantly, hit to the head and finish. Sometimes with skill but always with heart.

Why heart? Real fighting is also a test of nerves and endurance. There is no referee to stop it when it becomes deadly, no time limit to a round where the opponents can sit down safe to think and analyse the opponents style. A real fight must be over as fast as possible with the most energy expended, so as the littlest amount of damage can be done to oneself by the opponent, especially if there is a weapon or weapons involved.

With an emptyhanded fight, one or both fighters will fight to exhaustion in a very quick time and one will often win not by being the best but the most endurable and/ or, the luckiest. They can sometimes win because the other guy stopped and lost or losing his nerve, simply ran away, in the fight and/or flight reflex. This exhaustion however, will not happen in a fight where a lump of wood is being directed towards the head. In hand to hand fighting the head can take and absorb several hits especially
with the hands helping, if up guarding the face. A lump of wood/rattan hitting hard to the head? Hands guarding the head in a weapon attack may be able to absorb several blows before they lower leaving the head open. The head may only be able to absorb one full force blow and of course a stab from a knife to the neck/head is commonly fatal. So you have to stop/grab/clip a weapon or weapon arm so it cannot be redirected or pulled back to strike again.

Bringing us back to the Teaching Method of Balintawak. The instructor in Balintawak being the instigator, attacker or leader is always ahead of the student, making the student able to be hit by the instructor, especially if the student does not clip. The student is behind a move and of course does not want to offend the instructor in training or in a demonstration by doing something away from the training moves, as they will never be taught again, be ostracised and never learn the SECRET’S of their instructor. This allowance by the student for the instructor in training and a demonstration, usually builds up the instructors reputation. “Look how easily he hits and disarms the other guy.” “He’s the real deal” is often said by adoring, unquestioning, unknowing seekers of their instructors secrets.

The teaching method of Balintawak is: an attacker uses a certain technique/strike. What do you then do, in defence? When you learn defensive moves well enough, then, you are taught to instruct/attack. It is not real fighting or combat but a teaching method. In real fighting each combatant is wanting to attack, with no thought of wanting to wait or of being a student. Sometimes you need to defend but then attack. If you understand Balintawak well enough, both opponents in a real confrontation, will use ALL their attacking and defensive moves. All these moves when learnt from both sides can be combined, pulled
apart and recombined for countless variations of attack and defence.
DISARMing the Best Weapon.

There are two ways to teach disarms against a stick/weapon, in Grouped Balintawak. One is after the beginner has been taught the defensive/student side of the Groups One to Five. They then move onto the After Groups or the End Plays, such as the hitting point, butting, push and pull, and of course the disarms for the student. The most significant way for the attacker/instructor to learn the ENTRY to disarms is in Group Five.

In the beginner/student phase of the End Plays Disarms, some Balintawak Schools, while teaching disarms, do not teach to counter strike the head of the opponent. A technique that has been instinctively ingrained in the students reaction over ALL of his training to this point but are now told, “Don’t counter, go straight to a disarm”.

I remember in my training and talks with Grandmaster Victor Cagadas of the Doce Pares. He was on the cusp of the late 40’s early 50’s Arnis movement in Cebu where many Doce Pares instructors finding their then current club system restrictive, went their own way, forming Balintawak. He told me of training with Timoteo Maranga, Venancio Bacon and Jose Villasin (early Balintawak people) and the way they taught and fought. He said (over a bottle of Tanduay Rum), “It’s all the same. Both opponents want to hit the other guy first and win”. Victor stayed with the Doce Pares until the early 1990’s.

Gagadas Doce Pares from Grandmaster Victor Cagadas of Bohol (now deceased), shown to me by the GM, and Henry Jayme taught to block, grab, counter strike and then disarm. The Balintawak I teach for a student to disarm shown in disarming after the Groups 1-5, the End Plays, teaches to block-clip-counter and then disarm. Yes, I took some of my fighting ideas/methods from a Doce Pares Grandmaster. This cross fertilisation from different styles of Cebu Escrima was brought to my thoughts in full, with the last years of one great Balintawak instructor, Jesus Que. Jesus Que Sr. Tall man, Spanish looking, he a Balintawak knife fighting genius. Having no where else to turn while old and sick, lived his final years in the house of a Doce Pares Grandmaster, Celso Mabalhin.

Anyway, Victor’s ideas on fighting and disarming simply made sense to me. His ideas on disarming were: If someone trys to grab your stick and you are not disorientated, why would you let them take it? He would say to me, “Why would you not fight back and stop your stick from being taken from you. You are angry and pissed off and most fighters will say to you, I will not let you take my weapon! You must be hit first, so the opponent has the chance to take your weapon away.”

A lot of Grouped Balintawak schools in the End Plays, do not teach a student/defender to counter first after a block/clip but simply to block/clip and disarm. What are the attackers/opponents doing when they are having their stick taken away? Watching, with their emptyhand index finger in their nose? This is what I call dummy training or crash test dummy training. After an initial attack/strike by the attacker, the defender is allowed to do all the moves and the opponent is what, shocked and awed into immobilisation. The defender/disarmer has two hands down by or at the attackers/opponents stick or arm. The attacker has a live hand at his face (hopefully guarding his face, not chest) or at the defenders stick or stickhand, palmblock/breaking. If the disarmer/defender is concentrating on the attackers stickhand with both hands, doesn’t the attacker want to hit the defenders open, unprotected face with his
emptyhand fist? A defender must block/clip, strike hard to disorientate and then disarm.

This brings us to disarms, locking and punching with the emptyhand
used by a Grouped Balintawak instructor/attacker.

Punching. The flowing abbreviated statement was said to me by one of the greatest known exponents and educators of Arnis/Escrima and Kali, (A/E/K) and said to others many times at a certain styles Martial Arts seminars I attended back in the 80’s.
“Over fifty percent of the knockouts came from the live or emptyhand”
He was talking about his old instructors experiences and fights and I always wondered about it back then. I had been to, seen and trained in many schools but never saw their emptyhand knockout exercises, not even from their senior students. I often asked while training “Why do we not have or where are the drills that concentrate on emptyhand knockouts, why are we still spinning sticks?” Maybe they kept their drills from me and others out of fear of the student obtaining too high a standard.

A good Grouped Balintawak instructor however, while having a healthy respect for the student’s capabilities, does not fear the
student knowing the drills. The instructors job is to teach the student how to fight properly. The drills for the instructor/attacker in Grouped Balintawak that show the emptyhand punching drills are in Group Five, but are sometimes disguised, being bundled with initial counter strikes, then locking and/or disarm attempts. They, once taught in Group Five can also be now inserted into the previous earlier groups, to heighten a students training.

Group Five in initiality however, shows you, as an instructor/initiator how to enter a disarm as an attacker, how to lock as an attacker and how to punch as an attacker, while the other side teaches a defender/beginner/student how to nullify these attacks. The nullifying of the locking, disarming and punching techniques for the Balintawak Student in Group Five is of course employed by the defenders emptyhand. One hand simply counters the other. He grabs your stick/stickarm allowing it not to move. The student breaks the stick attack to the head or emptyhand disarm, then grabs/clips this instructors attempt to
disarm or lock. The fight now turns into a tug of war. How is this tug of war or stalemate broken? One takes the gamble and trys to punch the head of the opponent, usually the instructor, as by trying to disarm, he has the stick on top, or being the initiator has manoeuvred his stick on top. The student cannot block the emptyhand punch with their stick, as it is under the instructors stick. The students emptyhand leaving the attackers stick to guard/block, along with ducking/weaving, manoeuvres the student out of trouble. Maybe.

Another explanation of the use of the emptyhand and especially Group Five’s role in an abbreviated whole of Grouped Balintawak is as follows.
In training, the instructor will initiate an attack. Let us say a #1 strike/slash of Balintawak directed towards the students left temple. The student blocks/clips, pushes down (clears) the instructors weapon and then counters to the instructors head with their weapon. The instructor breaks/pushes, sometimes flows, with his emptyhand and clips/grabs the students stickhand/arm. Now do they go to a:
Group One where the student’s emptyhand lifts the instructors emptyhand clip/grab and the students emptyhand destroys the instructors following counter block, while the instructor practices breaking and flowing with their emptyhand when their stick has been captured by the student? Maybe...

Into a Group Two where the student learns to defend against the butting (and thrusting) techniques of the instructor, with their emptyhand and forearm, when their stick or stickhand has been captured by the instructors emptyhand. Then returning to Group One techniques to detach the instructors grip or destroy
their block.
Maybe...

Group Three. The instructor now attacks faster and harder again. Slicing over his Pak Gung block with a thrust generally directed at the face/chest of the opponent/student but sometimes not. The student has missed the clip on the hand or arm and must body manoeuvre and slash his stick around to block again, and then again a return counter. This Group is more like the fencing of Arnis/Escrima and is sometimes played with thin swords. The student not being stupid enough to try and grab the sharp metal weapon edge, again body manoeuvres and slashes his weapon around to block again and return a counter. Countering the instructors all over spinning, slashing and thrusting attacks with faster blocks and counters, hopefully at some time grabbing the hand or arm of the
attacker. Maybe...
To Group Four where after the instructors attack and break/push down/clear, the students emptyhand helps to move their stick/weapon back to a vertical position to defend against abanico and powerful thrusts off the back foot, (the students two hands are stronger than the instructors single emptyhand), then sometimes not, as the students emptyhand can also defend against an abanico and powerful thrust as well. This group reinforces the simple law of Balintawak
of: Try and move both hands up to guard/defend the body and head, learnt throughout the students training. Maybe...

Group Five. The instructor, after his initial #1 attack and break, pulls his stick back, attempts a counter head stunning strike, while clipping the students stick/hand, attempts a lock, attempts to disarm but being nullified and finally punching. Maybe...

When the instructor moves into a disarm OR a lock it has been preceded by a camouflaged stick stunning strike to the head that is always practised by the instructor during this Group. The student by now has been taught to see and feel the differences in the instructors moves. They can feel and see a simple push break release against the students clip or a move into something else, such as a disarm or lock and the strike that comes with it. Remember, all the previous Groups and this one depend, (much like real fighting), on feel and timing, (but don’t forget heart as well). The instructor now will try and lock and/or disarm the student with an initial stick strike/stun thrown in. The student feeling a strike to the head, a lock or disarm coming uses the most simple
thing to stop the strike, disarm. The student uses their empty or livehand to break or stop the instructors stick hand motion. Each hand simply nullifies the other. The student simply grabs or breaks (palm blocks) the instructors stick or stickhand. Both hands are then locked in a tug of war.

Who will break this stalemate or tug of war? Usually the one with the last hand on the top and this will be the instructor as he is the initiator and one move ahead.
So what does the instructor do now?
He says to himself in Group Five training, “Hey this guy is good, lets just stop being nice to him by stunning him and taking his stick away. He has
clipped/grabbed my stick, so I have to smack his face in with my emptyhand fist”. How does the student counter this?
Well the laws of Balintawak say there is a counter to every counter so... the students emptyhand palm/forearm blocks (breaks) and grabs or flows through and grabs the instructors emptyhand attack, the punch. So what happens next?

As was said, “The instructor/attacker stops being nice to the opponent, this opponent is too good” and as his stickhand is now free, (the students emptyhand has blocked the instructors emptyhand and left the instructors stick) butts the students face with the stick, this is now a twelve strike of Balintawak from the instructor, so the student continues to palm block the attackers emptyhand and as his stick is now free, he continues to bring his weapon up to guard, in a basic fighting move or Balintawak law of, Get your hands up, protect your head and continues in a normal 12 strike defence. Simple Balintawak principles that have been built up through basic training and the intermediate Groups. Both then move/play back into the At Random strikes and Groups of Balintawak.

Another Grouped Balintawak teaching method item you have to consider during the training, is the instructor is always enhancing his timing and
skills through repetition training with a student when he attacks. When he teaches a student to attack, the instructor is then revising his earlier
techniques of destroying an opponent through defence.

Why are some Balintawak schools beginning to forget about clipping or even grabbing? Momentum looks flashy, and it looks like their competition who are making it big in the Martial Arts world of teaching “Stickfighting”. If it works for the competition, well, “We had better join them”, they say. Well, for now, and maybe always, the flashy schools will be getting looked at, for people that like superficially brilliant, surreal, omnipotent ways.
For the people out there, that like flamboyance and like to teach the ostentatious, are they the ones that Balintawak was designed by and developed for?

Balintawak has always been for fighters and for teaching real fighting. Fighting is never flashy, just ugly, angry and brutal, with hopefully, you still standing and able to walk away in the end, but the opponent/attacker not.

Conclusion
The preceding explanations of the emptyhand use and its importance may sound confusing to some but after a certain amount of training, Balintawak can take an ordinary individual and make them good, by using and training their natural instincts of grabbing and hitting to the head. Not all will become a champion or a world beater. While some students will be better then others, if they stay the distance to learn the style and by training correctly, they all can be good at self defence. Two years with truly learning Grouped Balintawak and you can have a skill you can use well, for the rest of your life.

Don’t forget however, you can take a $5000 horse and turn it into a $2000 horse by not working it properly. The same goes for Balintawak too. By not working and training Balintawak, you will in all eventuality go backwards. So training must be kept up, to keep condition and timing at a standard.

The Group Five explanation above, is only one of the emptyhand drill knockouts of Balintawak. Would you like to hear another? Not enough time or space, so
hopefully I’ll see you in person soon....
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Pike

02-26-2008, 07:50 PM

Oscar Wilde once said "There's no such thing as bad publicity"

The only true words in the post from Scott.
I have read the post countless times and i feel i must say my piece.

Everything is complete dis-respect for the Masters of Balintawak especially those still with us.

Scott you say all others pale in comparison, now that is a very bold statement from a man who only asked a simple question on clipping at a GM Bobby Taboada seminar.
Got an answer that he did not understand, or has no relevance to his train of thought, so it means nothing or decided it wasnt the answer he wanted.

''Clipping'' are you clipping in the you tube video earlier,(the one were you claim your leg is poorly) if you are not, then why not and if not why make a big stink over clipping why not show it so we can all see.

I was looking forward to said book, there seems a bitter after taste of late.

''Give respect to get respect''

My Two Cents, my opinions

Pike

MacJ_007

02-27-2008, 12:04 AM

Tabimina and they also feel the others PALE in comparison to John. If you have better bro, show me(if you can), Then I'll post your comment. Until then.....

Bold words indeed. Even though it is your personal opinion, I felt that my Master has been disrespected. Now I'm curious if what you and your students said was true.

arnisador

02-27-2008, 12:16 AM

There's certainly no hope of settling an issue such as this on a forum. People would need to cross sticks in a (friendly!) meeting.

DennisAy

02-27-2008, 02:01 AM

scott, meh, a clip is a clip, is a clip is a clip. you should elaborate on GM Taboada's reply on clipping...he must have explained it thoroughly after 10 minutes right? 1) Clipping is Dangerous - it can be... you clip and i'll counter-clip. you grab then you better have a good reason to coz you're locking yourself up. or please elaborate. 2) Clipping is Advanced - it can be...for the reasons in number 1. or please elaborate. 3) Clipping is for Dummies - it can be...if you don't ponder and realize number 2 and number 1. or please elaborate. this clipping is not new and not exclusive to balintawak as others have said. now ask Mr. Russell to write something you don't hear too much about in balintawak, like how to break rhythm and utilize feints with stick control in cuentada and you'll have my attention. salamat, sendastick

free2flow

02-27-2008, 03:11 PM

hey scott, thanks a lot for posting john's ideas on clipping. i think it's good information and it show's john has a good understanding of clipping as praticed in balintawak. maybe in time he will fully understand it (clipping) and express the theory/technique in action. and also in time, i'm sure, he will also discover the proper time and how/where does the training of clipping fits in in the whole teovel balintawak training/curriculum/progression so that the other aspects/techniques/theory will not suffer.

good luck on your training!

- ritche

Richard Cotterill

02-27-2008, 03:53 PM

Hi Scott.

I have posted in direct reply to your most recent post.
Blue Bold so there is no ambiguity in what I am writing, this is in response to the offence I feel you are causing. MY OPINION.

Point 1) Robert asked:
Off-topic, but...
Any of you VMA folks connected with the person using the name "VMAbalintawak" on YouTube?
Robert

I think Robert has every right to be p***ed off, just like you have hey!!.

The reply from a man or person who has been discredited on this forum who has nothing to do with the VMA in Australia who has now been discredited by the administrators of this forum as being from California replies with a bunch of posts from You Tube and he has the nerve to doctor them in an attempt to tar several names with the same brush.

Scott, the ip address when posting can be traced to the country of origin. But People travel the world, if they are at computer then they can post with a different IP to their own country of residence.

Why are some people on this forum still referring to this discredited persons post?
Maybe because both he and you have upset a few people (actually in terms of quantity I think you win hands down). The only thing is you maybe cannot see it but you have continued down this path.

To Clarify.

I do not know who VMA Balintawak on "You Tube" is period. I have asked around as has John Russell.
Someone has made an account and used a very similar name to the one in which I posted a video. It is true an email was sent to Falcon AgentX44 by VMA Balintawak09 (ME) but it differs greatly to the one the discredited Falcon AgentX44 has posted. The Actual comment he made to our video and the ACTUAL response given is below.
The previous now becomes irrelevant as you have openly disrespected the Balintawak Brotherhood in this very post.

FalconAgentX44 (3 weeks ago) Show Hide
Reply | Remove | Block User | Approve | Spam
New Comment (Pending Approval)
With all due respect, I agree with what juramentado stated, it does appear that they DO need balintawak instructors in the area of Australia where this Mr. John Rusell is from.
His "agak" looks like girly BATON TWIRLING.

An inflammatory comment, I think we may agree on that.

Sent: 29 January 2008
Read: 30 January 2008
Subject: Show me your agak bro??
Message: Hey mate, Show me how your "agak" is better than Johns and I'll post your comment. Yeah your agak. Not your instructors, your agak. Who do YOU train with?
I've trained with Taboada personally (is that in Private one to one and to what duration of time may that add up to?) and know John is better, (in what respect better, would that be in teaching, fighting or both?)

I have students who trained directly under Gaabucayan and Tabimina and they also feel the others PALE (PALE, would that be defined as lack lustre, not a shining example, not bright or brilliant, dim, faint or feeble or indeed a whole plethora of definitions that you have inferred. So which one is it or maybe it is all of the aforementioned? Please clarify) in comparison to John. If you have better bro, show me(if you can), Then I'll post your comment. Until then.....

So you sent a reply of a similar inflammatory nature, only YOU raised the level by insulting a host of Balintawak instructors and also you give the inference that their students receive PALE instruction and you do not.

As you can all see from the above it is my personal opinion and the opinion of my students who spent extensive time training in the Philippines that was directed to another individual making an attack. It is My Opinion and the opinion of these other students that Johns method of teaching is superior and it is a shame it had to brought here in such an inflammatory fashion by FalconAgentX44.

And so it continues? Mind you like you state there is “no such thing as bad publicity”, right!

This FalconAgentX44 person has chosen to add his own negative comments in an attempt to entice conflict on this forum. It appears he has been successful with a great number of you. His broken use of the english language should have been a clear giveaway.

No-one in Australia would say "Better than Taboada 100 times"

No, no one would say it to his face!!! Would you?

Maybe next time you can pose the question why are you PALE in comparison to my instructor of Balintawak?

Hey, suggestion why don’t you go for “broke” and do it when Taboada, Tabimina and Gaabucayan are doing a combined seminar.

VMA Balintawak could be one of the many students John has trained in over 17 years as a Balintawak instructor.
Well I have to say you have no respect just like the youtube username VMABALINTAWAK.

Point 2) On Clipping
At a seminar in November 2007 held by GM Taboada after watching the demonstrations by GM Taboada and his training partner I asked the question

(During question time when the seminar was called to an abrupt halt 45 minutes earlier than advertised)
Does the previous sentence have particular relevance?
"When does clipping come into play?"
Not being sarcastic but I would say when you want it to!

I asked the question as it quite evident to myself and the other VMA instructor present that the student/instructor from Bega NSW of 7 years experience
(Does the 7 years have some particular relevance to your observation?).
If I have a student training once a week and one training three times a week both for a year, they have still only trained for a year right!!!

was not clipping any of GM Taboadas attacks.
What made you think in this “demonstration” he was supposed to? Just asking because of course I was not present.

GM Taboada replied over a 10 minute period with the following answers to my question on clipping: Good stopwatch always comes in handy.

1) Clipping is DANGEROUS
2) Clipping is ADVANCED
3) Clipping is for DUMMIES Ask your Instructor about cuentada

So perhaps VMA Balintawak is someone from the seminar or someone who has heard through the grapevine what was said by GM Taboada.
GM Taboada seemed to know EXACTLY what I was referring to when I asked him the question about clipping.
Would there be a reason why Bobby would NOT know EXACTLY what you were asking him?

Perhaps some people that don't know should ask him.
Hopefully you will get a clearer answer than I did and can post it here for all our benefit.
Why was the answer above not clear to you?
Do you wish me to tell you, well I will here it is: Clipping is whatever YOU want it to be (including the 3 explanations Bobby gave to you).
Training is training, fighting is fighting. Confuse at your peril.

You are assuming this VMA Balintawak person is on this forum thanks to the lies of the discredited FalconAgentX44.You can choose whatever name you want on these forums as well as on You Tube and unfortunately it can be used as a way to attempt to discredit certain individuals and groups as FalconAgentX44 has done so here.
He does not have to be on this forum as you have made a pretty good job of standing in for him with the statements you have made.

You will probably have more luck finding the WMDs in Iraq than you will in finding an individual who probably doesn't even know this forum exists.

As for advice on clipping please see the below article by John Russell published in the Philippines premier martial arts magazine Rapid Journal March 2007 given to me by permission of John Russell to explain the ACTUAL VMA view on clipping.
So John agrees we all need advice! Its not what you say it’s how you say it right!!

So to answer your question Robert I don't know who VMA Balintawak is but if I find out I'll let you know. It won't be behind closed doors either.
Please let all the Balintawak Brotherhood know.

Did I take offence to someone saying my footwork sucked - It did. If you have video posted you can expect positive and negative critique. Unfortunately most people do this critiqing behind a pseudonym. If you don't like the videos of yourself on You Tube ask the person who posted them to remove them or to have the sense to set the video so comments must be approved. Otherwise you have to put up with criticisms based on what people see. You should be comfortable enough in knowing yourself how good you are. Oscar Wilde once said "There's no such thing as bad publicity"

I don't feel the need to explain my absence from this forum either. I prefer to spend my time both training and with my family than staring at a computer screen.
The previous statement explained your absence, thank you.

Cheers,
Scotty
--------------------------------------------
No comment on the article

Just a suggestion, why don’t you ask John (like Dennisay suggests) on things that are not often covered in Balintawak. Maybe he could cover some of the subjects that get instructed here in the UK Like:

Enhanced teaching methodology
How to exponentially increase your power
Elements of Kinesiology
Structure and relevance of joint fulcrum and lever principles
Torque and torsion principles
Body Mechanics
Loading, Reloading and unloading your ‘’firing mechanism”
Bio feed back training
Preset and random selection training
Importance of mental disposition & Intent in your training
Connecting and disconnecting of the skeletal structure
Ground effect
Utilisation of Body Control Points
Plyometrics loading
So in conclusion I know we all make mistakes and say things that are not wise.

I have met people before who get on in life by deriding and downplaying others.

Scott remember this Bobby Tabaoda has been the most successful Balintawak exponent in propagating the art of Balintawak worldwide, every group has more than likely benefited from that, directly or indirectly. Including your own.

This he has done out of respect for his teachers (especially Teofilo Velez) fellow Balintawak Masters and all aspiring students of Balintawak. He came from nothing and served a long and hard apprenticeship and you have the mistaken belief that he is not passing on the art to people that want to learn it.

Tabimina and Gaabuyacan and many others are our friends and know what the term brotherhood means. Go look it up, dictionary.com.

PS
I have to say some things are best left unsaid, maybe you made this mistake. Hey maybe I have also, but you know what I have the integrity to admit to my mistakes.

One last thing seeing is for people with eyes, feeling is for people with heart!

From my heart you are welcome, I respect (when it is mutual). Which at this particular moment counts you out.

Richard.

Robert Klampfer

02-27-2008, 09:18 PM

Any of the pictures I have seen of Velez, Villasin and Bacon show them in a short stance/posture, feet no more than a shoulder wide apart. I have also seen video taken in 1987 of Velez which shows a consistant short stance. Henry Jayme (one of my instructors) was a student of Velez has and teaches a short stance. I was always of the opinion the short stance was one of the features of Balintawak.

Compare the size and weight of Bobby to the others. Bobby is gigantic compared to them. "Center balance" and "step the way you walk" are the catch phrases we use. Watch this video starting at about 03:20 and you'll see Mr. Velez drop his weight and spread his feet - http://youtube.com/watch?v=4Ykr9OSIbH0

Robert

Robert Klampfer

02-27-2008, 09:22 PM

On another topic does Bobby Taboada know and teach the single and two person patterns of Tat Kun Tao taught by Jose Millan?

I asked him about this. He knows of it but didn't learn it.

Robert

deke

02-28-2008, 08:46 AM

Enhanced teaching methodology

How to exponentially increase your power
Elements of Kinesiology
Structure and relevance of joint fulcrum and lever principles
Torque and torsion principles
Body Mechanics
Loading, Reloading and unloading your ‘’firing mechanism”
Bio feed back training
Preset and random selection training
Importance of mental disposition & Intent in your training
Connecting and disconnecting of the skeletal structure
Ground effect
Utilisation of Body Control Points
Plyometrics loading

This sounds impressive. Lets look at some of the these.

"exponentially increase power"

Simple definition. A function which raises some given constant (the "base") to the power of its argument. Are we talking base 2? So you say your instruction can turn a 1000 newton punch into a 1000 kn punch. However, you might mean base 1.00001. This would mean a negligible increase in force. The statement is meaningless hype unless you provide a base number to work on and shows a significant lack of understanding. Have you done any quantitive anaylsis of your claim?

"enhanced teaching methodology"

Teacher-centred, interactive, individualized or experimental? What research do you base your enhanced teaching methodology on:- Gardner, Piaget, Skinner, Vygosky, Gestalt, ...etc.

"elements of kinesiology

What is you particular area of interest in kinesiology when it comes to the MA's:-functional anatomy, biomechanics, exercise physiology, motor control, ...etc?

"Pylometric loading"

How do you specifically apply this to Balintawak? What type of arm pylos do you do? Simple regime of chest pass ( medicine ball), incline push up, depth jump, vertical toss, ..etc or do you use a bag. Which of the above for which strike or counter? For example Teovel's No 1 and 9 strike uses different muscle systems.

"Loading, Reloading and unloading your ‘’firing mechanism”'

Sorry don't understand, can you explain this in biomechanical terms.

"biofeedback"

What devices do you use:- electromyographic, thermal or electrodermal?

I've heard plenty of MAists claim an understanding of the above but VERY few able to substantiate their claim.

Scott remember this Bobby Tabaoda has been the most successful Balintawak exponent in propagating the art of Balintawak worldwide, every group has more than likely benefited from that, directly or indirectly. Including your own.

Have to disagree. I learnt nothing at the seminar that I went to in the late 90's. I had already been studying Balintawak for 3 years. I'm sure Bobby had/has plenty to teach but I just didn't get anything out of the format.

When you say propagating the art of Balintawak, what do you mean? His form of Balintawak (Cuentada) which is significantly removed in style and methodology from his instructors (Teovel's). I'd say Remy Presas was the most successful Balintawak exponent propagating the art of Escrima. If people are wondering the connection, Remy was a very skilled exponent of Balintawak who turned what he knew into Modern Arnis to make it more saleable. I have no problems with this as in the evolution process he lost the direct association with Balintawak by dropping the name.

Visyan Martial Arts Balintawak has a lineage back to Velez the same way Bobby's form does. John
Russell learnt from Henry Jayme who learnt directly from GM Velez. The difference being Henry and John choose to teach as they were taught with as little variation as possible.

From the little exposure I've had to Balintawak Cuentada it is different from what Teovel taught. This is neither meant to be a positive or negative comment. Balintawak by its very nature evolved through Bacon, Villasin and Velez. People are free to make up their own minds about whether the evolution is effective or not.

oosh

02-28-2008, 10:21 AM

Wow lots of chatter...not really in he keeping with the history of Balintawak and it's fighters ;)

Pike

02-28-2008, 10:27 AM

Balintawk
The Great Grandmaster Anciong Bacon is widely acknowledged as the original master of Balintawak Arnis/Eskrima. In Balintawak Arnis, the stick is used as the primary training tool. The theory is that the stick is only an extension of the arm and that the human body can only move in so many normal ways. In Balintawak, the student is taught that there is a counter to every counter and that continuous research and discovery is the basis of knowledge.

Have to disagree. I learnt nothing at the seminar that I went to in the late 90's. I had already been studying Balintawak for 3 years. I'm sure Bobby had/has plenty to teach but I just didn't get anything out of the format.
Some twenty years later you remember what, that it wasnt for you.

When you say propagating the art of Balintawak, what do you mean? His form of Balintawak (Cuentada) which is significantly removed in style and methodology from his instructors (Teovel's).
His Balintawak that you remember from twenty plus years ago as you
told us before.

Deke: ''I have no problems with this as in the evolution process''
You agree that Evolution of an art will happen. Read above again

John Russell learnt from Henry Jayme who learnt directly from GM Velez
John choose to teach as they were taught with as little variation as possible.
''I've heard plenty of MAists claim an understanding of the above but VERY few able to substantiate their claim.'' Your Quote.

Balintawak by its very nature evolved through Bacon, Villasin and Velez. People are free to make up their own minds about whether the evolution is effective or not.
I like this last quote, its the only one that sounds correct the rest is
criticism a form of Balintawak.
As a school teacher we all thought you would embrace change not get into mean and petty exchanges.

You claim to be a secondary school teacher, remember all that is learnt
is not from a book.
Sometimes the thinking has to stop and you have to start to feel.

Richard Cotterill

02-29-2008, 05:43 AM

Deke.
I will start by saying we can all go to the Library and quote very clever people, collect and present data analysis, (academics and politicians do it all the time), equations etc, that usually gets some sort of result.

Many people (as I once did) believe that combative applications and their movement patterns are exclusively associated within the Martial Arts, anything outside of that box is not relevant right!! Well maybe that’s not correct, for a start we all have inherent self protection mechanisms built in. Look at children, do you have to teach them how to walk/run, eat, bite, kick, slap or even tell lies when there mechanism suggests they may be admonished or punished for something they knew they was not supposed to do.

How do you try and build on those inherent movement patterns, like withdrawal reflex, startle/flinch response etc etc. Try throwing some metal coins in a sink full of very hot water and then try and snatch them out, maybe the pain is too much but it might just touch on withdrawal reflex. How do we apply that in what we train. Mental Intent or mindset, do you say “bad” things in your head when you are training. How do you train the advanced whilst you are teaching basic.
I know how this works for me and others in our group. At the end of the day my students always have the option to say what is for them, they choose.

Governments, Institutions, Organizations, Authorities, etc and indeed almost all of us like everything standardized (in a box). That’s what a syllabus or a curriculum is also. People outside the box are the chaos, bastardization, non conformers, dangerous etc. Where am I going with this well the “fight” as I understand it is the chaos etc, so maybe we take a look outside the box after all.

I believe what you are told or shown regarding Balintawak (or anything else for that matter) is just a guide. If you want the box take the standardization thats okay. If you are there to be spoon fed then how are you ever going to stand on your own two feet and evolve. Art is just that an expression of yourself. Fighting is just survival.

When you do Number 8 or 9 or any of the numbered angles what about 8 ½ or 1 ¼. How do you break the pattern or change the syncopation. What is in your head the correct posture or intent. Training is training.

Look at world class table tennis players for fast reactive hand movement. How will a golfer improve his swing or increase the power from the club to the ball, how will a javelin thrower throw further, a batsman hit the ball harder etc etc. Again these are all human traits that can be enhanced and exponentially increased upon. You want a set of figures, go build your own “data” like I am still doing. I will even point you in a direction (mind you if you was head of IT you probably already know that).
http://www.quintic.com/software/biomechanics/index.htm (http://www.quintic.com/software/biomechanics/index.htm)

Plyometric loading are you thinking in the box or out. Do you load me or do I load you. Well you figure it out, I have no doubt you will come back with some sort of retort. Bio feedback you want hooked up to a machine? Because that’s the way to measure!!

The enhanced teaching method is based on my experience and the people I have met and continue to meet. The way I have to aspire to be better, to highlight my constraints and try to elevate them, to look at something that is negative and turn it into positive. To try and look outside the box and give my students the freedom to do the same.
So no I won’t ever be on a named list in a library, do I care about that.

Oh and where did I say I could take a punch and turn a 1000 newton punch into a 1000 kn punch. LOL. Are those figures from a box. Mind you part of a referenced equation hey. Are you putting words into my mouth?

None of this is substantiated right!! Would that be because I am PALE also.

Maybe you could list the Martial Artists you claim have made claims?

So what if Bobby’s method of Balintawak is not the same, or is originality the only way. A seminar is just a taster, sometimes we don’t bother to take the main course or desert.

A lot of work goes into a thesis. Of which this is not, this is just “Tit for Tat” and I much prefer to be the Tat.

My conclusion
I ticked the box when I signed up to here, also I ask myself do I like where I am potentially going and would I like this on our own forum, I have already made my mind up on that one. So I am taking my behaviour out of here with you. If you wish to continue feel free (that would be the “tit” without the “tat”) or alternatively email me richard@balintawak.co.uk (richard@balintawak.co.uk) or private message me I don’t care which. Oh and laxative usually helps to loosen up.

I've done talking here with you on this subject.

Richard. (letters after name withheld in a sense of good taste).
PS
www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk (http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/) this guy works outside the box.

Disrespect shown on the original post will be judged by people who still feel aggrieved.

deke

03-01-2008, 12:49 AM

Richard: So I am taking my behaviour out of here with you. If you wish to continue feel free (that would be the “tit” without the “tat”)

Have responded privately but I will also take the opportunity to respond on the forum. Always been a bit of a “tit” man myself. Shock and awe, one response which means there is no counter. Watched a guy almost totally bite the other guys nose off in a pub fight. Two second grapple, went to ground, one bite, end of confrontation. This is my favourite lesson on INTENT

Richard: Look at world class table tennis players for fast reactive hand movement. How will a golfer improve his swing or increase the power from the club to the ball, how will a javelin thrower throw further, a batsman hit the ball harder etc. Again these are all human traits that can be enhanced and exponentially increased upon.

Genes that regulate cardiovascular and musculoskeletal systems stop elite athletes from EXPONENTIALLY enhancing performance. A world class table tennis player can elicit small incremental gains in reaction times through plyometric exercise but these gains can make the difference between winning and losing. How a golfer improves their swing is dependant on skill level. A beginner is going to gain nothing from plyometrics but a great deal through someone correcting their stroke with a knowledge of the biomechanics of golf swing. Golf professionals (boxing trainers, MA instructors, …etc) often have a very practical understanding of biomechanics without needing to use technical jargon. Most MA instructors I know have a credible working knowledge of biomechanics which allows them to teach students to punch, kick, grapple,..etc effectively. My original point stands (which appears to have been missed) is that unless you have a real understanding and ability to use Sports Science to improve performance (incrementally) it at best is ineffective and worst, just hype.

Richard: How do you break the pattern or change the syncopation. What is in your head the correct posture or intent. Training is training.

My intent is simple, to end the confrontation as quickly as possible. To make sure my punch, kick, bite, gouge, headbutt stops the other person from hitting back. In boxing you might train a twelve punch combination but I’ve never seen one in the ring. Syncopation happens in Balintawak training because there is an expectation that there is going to be a counter. Why train to break syncopation, when in general, syncopation doesn’t happen in a fight?

Richard: How do you try and build on those inherent movement patterns, like withdrawal reflex, startle/flinch response etc etc. Try throwing some metal coins in a sink full of very hot water and then try and snatch them out, maybe the pain is too much but it might just touch on withdrawal reflex.

Your example isn’t startle/flinch response. This requires spontaneous stimulus which produces a reflexive motor response. The fact that you have thrown the coins means you can make a conscious decision to retrieve them even if it means you will get burnt. Same response when a parent runs into a burning building to save their child. Withdrawal reflex is the same if you are given the time to make a conscious decision. Jurys’ out on Blauer, whether you can actually mold the startle/flinch into something combatively useful. One things for sure you can’t stop the response from happening

Richard: Many people (as I once did) believe that combative applications and their movement patterns are exclusively associated within the Martial Arts, anything outside of that box is not relevant right!!

I agree, I know many people who haven’t had a day of MA training who are excellent fighters. One of the disadvantages of MA training is that it pre-programs and hardwires a set of rules.

Richard: The enhanced teaching method is based on my experience and the people I have met and continue to meet.

All MA instructors have a teaching method. Many facilitate learning by putting the tools in place which creates an environment where the student can do their own mental construction of how to use what they have been given. It has an educational term which is called “social constructivism”. You are mistaken if you think there are not plenty of others out there (including myself) that don’t teach the same way. Also, the only way this teaching method can be “enhanced” is through self reflection.

Self reflection (if its to be effective) requires an openness to the way others think. A willingness to accept that although others have different ideas and you may not agree with them they are part of the environment which allows you to test your own theories, this in turn allows your conceptual understanding to grow. In reality the MA community isn’t very good at this. I find it a bit ironic that one of the major traits most people outside the MA’s think MA’s engender is self discipline where for many it is the exact opposite.

Getting bent out of shape in a forum is pointless, however, aggrieved you think you are. Save your aggression for when someone breaks into your house and tries to hurt your family.

Only used 500ml of Agarol. Like Richard I’ll sign off on this particular thread.

Apprentice

03-23-2008, 02:44 AM

Subject: Show me your agak bro??

......... I have students who trained directly under Gaabucayan and Tabimina and they also feel........

Hi all, I have been waiting to get approval to be able to make a comment since this all started. I still don't know who VMA Man is. I have trained directly under Nene many years ago when we were both at the YMCA of Manila and with Bobby Tabimina when i went back to Iligan City a few years ago. I met John Russell 13 years ago at one of Bobby Taboada's seminar and only started training with John last year. Both Nene and Bobby Tabimina has verbally told me the history of Balintawak (though I may not remember all) and so has John Russell. All three versions match up.
To my point of view, there seems to be an upset about clipping. All three have taught me clipping though in different stages or level of instruction.

To quote Bobby Taboada, "Every style of martial arts has something to offer. Pick up a good move, rehearse it, practice it, understand it, and then think about the counter. Then it is yours."

John Russell, being my most recent Balintawak instructor, has shown me clipping from the first day he started instructing me. All three have different methods of instruction. All three have taught me Balintawak. I don't claim to be an expert in Balintawak, i have a long way to go. What I have experienced is that John Russell's method of instruction is a highly evolved method of instruction.

Apprentice

03-26-2008, 07:51 PM

guillermo taboada

03-26-2008, 09:52 PM

After training with John Russell, it felt that the training I received from Nene Gaabucayan and Bobby Tabimina set me up for defeat. John teaches the blocks for disarms during the course of training while Nene and Bobby Tabimina didn’t.

When John and I went to Bobby Taboada's seminar a few years back, we were shown a "kata" like the one shown on a 1992 instructional video. I didn't want to go to another seminar where i could waste another 6 hours of my time being shown stick spinning rather than Balintawak.

HELLO MY FRIEND APPRENTICE,
I AM READING YOUR COMMENT ABOUT ME, I AM SO SORRY IF YOU ARE DISAPPOINTED ABOUT ME, TELL ME YOUR POINT OF WHAT IS MY MISTAKE AND I WILL ANSWER YOU IN A GOOD MANNER. I DONT REALLY UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE TRYING TO RUN YOUR WORD TO THE WORLD,
IF YOU BELIEVE OF WHAT YOU ARE TRAINNING NOW, THEN IT IS GOOD FOR YOU. IT SEEMS LIKE YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD INSTRUCTOR JOHN RUSELL. SO, HIS INSTRUCTOR MUST BE A REALLY GOOD INSTRUCTOR TOO
HENRY JAYME OF THE VELEZ CLAN. I AM PROUD OF HIM.
YOU MAYBE MISUNDERSTAND OF MY SEMINAR FEW YEARS BACK ABOUT ME DOING THE STICK KATA, REMEMBER THAT THE BALINTAWAK NEVER HAVE A KATA FORM. YOU MAYBE SEE THE TWIRLING THAT I HAVE SHOWED BUT, THAT IS ONLY FOR CONDITIONING OF THE ARM. AND IF SOMEBODY COULD TEACH ME HOW TO DO STICK KATAS, I WILL TAKE IT,AND LEARN IT, THERE IS NOTHING TO LOOSE. OUT OF THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS WORLD WIDE FROM DIFFERENT STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS THAT I HAVE TEACH, I NEVER HEARD BAD THINGS ABOUT ME. THEY ALWAYS SHOW THIER RESPECT BECAUSE, I RESPECT THEM MORE THAN THE RESPECT ME. THIS IS WHY I ALWAYS TEACH THE STUDENT HOW TO RESPECT EVEN THOSE LOWER LEVELS. I ALWAYS EMPHASIZE THE FRIENDSHIP AND BE GOOD EXAMPLE. MY PURPOSE OF TRANNING THE STUDENTS IS TO BE BETTER THAN ME IN THE FUTURE.
BEFORE HENRY JAYME STARTS BALINTAWAK AT GM TEOPILO VELEZ, I WAS THE MAIN TEACHER AT THAT SCHOOL ASIDES FROM MY BROTHERS CHITO, EDDIE, MONIE VELEZ AND OTHERS. FOR MANY YEARS TEACHING AT THAT BALINTAWAK INTERNATIONAL SCHOOL, GRANDMASTER TEOPILO VELEZ IS ALWAYS THERE WATCHING AND CORRECTING MY MISTAKES OF TEACHING. THE WAY HE CORRECT IT, HE WILL SHOW IT, AND GIVING ME A HARD HIT NO MATTER WERE HIS STICK LANDED IN MY BODY, AND HE SAY,, THAT IS WHAT YOU GET IF YOU TEACH THAT WAY. SO I LEARN MORE AND MORE EVERYDAY.
I LEARN A LOT FROM HIM SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MY BALINTAWAK CARRIER, MOSTLY, LEARNING ABOUT FRIENSHIP, ITS ALL CAME FROM HIM. I OWED A LOT FROM HIM, HE IS THE ONLY MAN THAT GAVE ME THE EDUCATION THAT I DONT HAVE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. I HOPE EVERYBODY DOES THE SAME TO BE GOOD EXAMPLE. WE ARE ALL STARTS THE BALINTAWAK 12 BASIC STRIKES IN CONTROL.

LETS BE FRIENDS. THANK YOU.
GRANDMASTER BOBBY TABOADA

Reactor

03-28-2008, 06:32 AM

After training with John Russell, it felt that the training I received from Nene Gaabucayan and Bobby Tabimina set me up for defeat. John teaches the blocks for disarms during the course of training while Nene and Bobby Tabimina didn’t.

Mr. Apprentice:

Discovery is very much a large part of Balintawak. Most, if not all, Balintawak masters know this and teach in a manner that "motivate/challenge" students to, in a manner of speaking, fight back , to discover what works, as opposed to being spoonfed. Some learners, however, simply want to be told what to do and how to do things.

Not knowing the extent of your training with any of the aforementioned, I would not be presumptuous to state what type of learner you are, but I do know that Mr. Gaabucayan and Mr. Tabimina do not spoonfeed, and this type of training does require some patience, fortitude, and humility from the learner. Perhaps this is the reason you feel you were "set up for defeat."

Cheers,
Reactor

deke

03-29-2008, 10:10 AM

MacJ_007

03-29-2008, 08:53 PM

I was gonna say something but never mind. What's the point of explaining it to people who don't understand. It's a waste of time.

guillermo taboada

03-30-2008, 02:56 AM

HELLO MACJ OO7,

SOME BALINTAWAK PRACTITIONERS TALK, AND IT HURTS TO ALL BALINTAWAK COMMUNITY, YES YOUR'E RIGHT, YOU DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN, ITS A WASTE OF TIME. JUST DO WHAT YOU DO AND BE GOOD EXAMPLE.

GM BOBBY TABOADA
www.internationalbalintawak.com (http://www.internationalbalintawak.com)

Robert Klampfer

03-30-2008, 09:15 PM

After training with John Russell, it felt that the training I received from Nene Gaabucayan and Bobby Tabimina set me up for defeat. John teaches the blocks for disarms during the course of training while Nene and Bobby Tabimina didn’t.

Would you first please identify yourself? You're claiming to have trained with Nene Gaabucayan and Bobby Tabimina so, I'd like to establish some bona fides with them in regards to your training.

I'd also like to hear more of an explanation of your "set me up for defeat" comment. In what way do you believe they did this? Nene and Bobby Tabimina are tried and true Balintawak street fighters and I've not heard of John Russell being considered such so, I hope you'll pardon me for being skeptical of your comment. However, I'm open to reason so, please explain.

Robert

Reactor

03-30-2008, 11:44 PM

"What I have experienced is that John Russell's method of instruction is a highly evolved method of instruction."

Have to agree. John's method of instruction was evolving even before he started to learn Balintawak (late 80's). John taught Hapkido's "Ho shin sul" not in terms of individual technique but grouped by principles of body mechanics.

Teovels Balintawak "method of instruction" fits well with John because of its logical progression.

Mr. Deke:

You seem to know Mr. Russell, and advocate how he teaches. Bravo to you then. You have found the instructor that resonates with your personality. (I'm assuming you are his student). Evolution in pedagogy is not necessarily a bad thing.

Balintawak is a small and proud community. Its members are fiercely protective of its quality, and natural selection weeds out the undeserving. Pretenders and wannabes eventually fall to the wayside.

At the end of the day, therefore, all this will not matter. It will be your skill, and the skill of Mr. Russell's students (in general) that will determine whether your faith in him and how he teaches is deserved, and whether the respect that you seem to want so much for Mr. Russell, who I'm sure would rather rise on his own merits, will materialize.

And these opportunities will arise. It is inevitable in the MA, but moreso in a community like Balintawak :)

So till then, plod on, learn what you can. Maybe someday, you, Mr. Russell, and others will be worthy of the reputation and peer respect now enjoyed by the living luminaries of this style we value so much: Mr. Buot, Mr. Elizar, Mr. Gaabucayan, Mr. Tabimina, Mr. Taboada, Mr. Velez (alphabetical order, off the top of my head, list incomplete, apologies to anyone whom I might've missed).

As an instructor he expects his students to challenge what he teaches. This is unusual because he really does it, not just talk about doing it.

Being around the Martial Arts for a fair time I've listened to a lot of instructors say they allow their students to ask questions but often when the questioning gets too intense or it takes them beyond their own skillset they quickly jump behind the "patience, fortitude, and humility" crap.

That is heartening to hear. For Mr. Russell to do otherwise would be a disservice to his students.

How many of us have watched MA instructors teach non working techniques to students who unquestionably put them into their toolbox to be used "on the street"? Some instructors do this unknowingly but others do it knowing the techniques don't work to fill up the curriculum so they can keep taking the students money.

Unfortunately, what you say is true. As in many things in this world, caveat emptor applies and it becomes incumbent upon the prospective student to seek out quality instruction and weed out the wannabes. Forums such as this can help.

My view though is that pretenders rarely rise to a level where they can cause great harm. They are eventually called out and when this happens, they cravenly hide behind a keyboard, or fail to produce the goods.

Cheers,
Reactor

samson818

03-31-2008, 11:11 AM

I have to commend the Balintawak community for being so eloquent in this ensuing dialogue....

I also dont know Mr. John Russell, his skill, what he teaches, etc.
But obviously his sudents have not learned a lick of etiquette or sense of brotherhood. Not to mention the underhanded comments for other Balintawak instructors and their teaching methods.

If you dont like what someone teaches, then move on and keep your mouth shut. Dont damage their credibility, their art, or reputation based on your limited seminar time with them. Not to mention your skills and intelligence may not be up to par.

That is not an insult. Simply condsider your grasp of calculus when you were in 5th grade. By college you thought you knew if all until you met your professors. Learning is done in stages and quite often we become shrouded by our own arrogance only to discover years later that we knew nothing.

But in the end, who cares what your training methods are, or who your instructor is. What can you do? What can you teach?
Can you only play within context of a drill? Can you apply your precious clippings in actual combat?

If not, then just keep training and keep the veiled insults to yourself.

Apprentice

04-03-2008, 07:12 PM

Would you first please identify yourself? You're claiming to have trained with Nene Gaabucayan and Bobby Tabimina so; I'd like to establish some bona fides with them in regards to your training.

Bobby Tabimina and Nene Gaabucayan both know who I am. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9rOqyje9IQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9rOqyje9IQ&feature=related)

I have trained with Nene many years ago when we were both at the YMCA of Manila,
1-3 times a week for about a year, and with Bobby Tabimina, 1-2 times a week for about 4 months, when I went back to Iligan a few years ago.

I met John Russell 13 years ago at one of Bobby Taboada's seminar and only started training with John last year.
I'd also like to hear more of an explanation of your "set me up for defeat" comment. In what way do you believe they did this?

Method of instruction: John teaches the blocks for disarms throughout the course of training. John also put a heavy emphasis on clipping. A fundamental of all Martial Art when confronted with a weapon; control it after a block, and with escrima, everything done with a stick can be done empty-handed.

Nene and Bobby Tabimina are tried and true Balintawak street fighters

Indeed they are, the history of Balintawak as I know of it, is from them, and also John Russell.

and I've not heard of John Russell being considered such so, I hope you'll pardon me for being sceptical of your comment.

You have a right to be sceptical. No one really knew who, or heard of John Russell, until this thread started. And I really don’t understand why there is an upset about clipping. John Russell learned from Henry Jaime who learn from Teofilo Velez- control with clip, not grab, control. This is nothing new to Balintawak.
As for my comments on Bobby Taboada’s stick spinning, have a look at FMA Digest Special Edition 2007, page 16. All I did was say what I experienced from the last seminar I attended. And as for clipping; there are heaps of photos in John’s book http://akingtindahan.multiply.com/photos/photo/4/1 (http://akingtindahan.multiply.com/photos/photo/4/1)http://www.fmaforum.org/lofiversion/index.php/t2426.html (http://www.fmaforum.org/lofiversion/index.php/t2426.html)

MacJ_007

04-03-2008, 10:15 PM

I have trained with Nene many years ago when we were both at the YMCA of Manila,
1-3 times a week for about a year, and with Bobby Tabimina, 1-2 times a week for about 4 months, when I went back to Iligan a few years ago.
[/URL]

No wonder Sir Bob Tabimina said, "IT IS I WHO CHOSE YOU NOT YOU WHO CHOSE ME." You trained for 4 months, I trained with him for a total of 1 month. Compare our movements. I'm just sorry and I'm glad that you're not one of the chosen ones to carry on his legacy.

Me and Sir Bob will be on Perth, Australia hopefully this coming October. We will all see you there. Til then, I suggest you keep your comments to yourself and continue with your training.

deke

04-09-2008, 01:30 AM

Mr. Deke:

You seem to know Mr. Russell, and advocate how he teaches. Bravo to you then. You have found the instructor that resonates with your personality. (I'm assuming you are his student).

No he is not my instructor and I have no affiliation to his organisation. Went to school with him, trained with him over ten years ago.

Balintawak is a small and proud community. Its members are fiercely protective of its quality, and natural selection weeds out the undeserving. Pretenders and wannabes eventually fall to the wayside.).

So Johns 20 years of being involved with Balintawak should be enough time for natural selection to occur??

So till then, plod on, learn what you can. Maybe someday, you, Mr. Russell, and others will be worthy of the reputation and peer respect now enjoyed by the living luminaries of this style we value so much: Mr. Buot, Mr. Elizar, Mr. Gaabucayan, Mr. Tabimina, Mr. Taboada, Mr. Velez (alphabetical order, off the top of my head, list incomplete, apologies to anyone whom I might've missed).

Thanks for the sage advice. Maybe you should ask Nick or Monie about John? Mr Velez? which one? Do you know all these guys personally or have you made an assumption of their skill level by what you have heard or read from others. Now I'm not casting any doubt about their skill or ability in Balintawak; however, if you haven't trained with all these guys personally where is your frame of reference if it doesn't come from others. As a case in point 15 years ago instructors like Nick Elizar were unknown to the Balintawak community outside the Visayas. Before Nick had his own website John promoted him on his.

My view though is that pretenders rarely rise to a level where they can cause great harm. They are eventually called out and when this happens, they cravenly hide behind a keyboard, or fail to produce the goods.

Cheers,
Reactor

This is not my experience, there are plenty of pretenders out there. Some might hide behind keyboards while others make living out of gullible people who believe the hype. How do you know someone is the real deal if you have no frame of reference? Also, how do you call someone out?

deke

04-09-2008, 01:53 AM

I also dont know Mr. John Russell, his skill, what he teaches, etc. But obviously his sudents have not learned a lick of etiquette or sense of brotherhood. .

Actually its a sense of friendship that made me post. I think you will find the Johns students are loyal to him. Brotherhood to whom? Others on this forum who have shown an equal level of disrespect. The people defending John are the people that know him and have trained with him?

If you dont like what someone teaches, then move on and keep your mouth shut. Dont damage their credibility, their art, or reputation based on your limited seminar time with them. Not to mention your skills and intelligence may not be up to par

That is not an insult.

Of course it is! Not even the veiled ones that bother you so much. Actions speak louder than words. I don't think words said on this forum affect your instructors credibility.

But in the end, who cares what your training methods are, or who your instructor is.

True but the same applies to all

Can you only play within context of a drill? Can you apply your precious clippings in actual combat?

The mantra of the instructor comes out in the student.

Apprentice

04-09-2008, 05:00 PM

I have personally spoken and made my peace with Bobby Taboada, Bobby Tabimina and Nene Gaabucayan. As my moniker suggests, I am merely a learner, an apprentice who has more to learn, who merely desires to learn more Balintawak. I am signing off from this thread and hope that there will still be someone from the Balintawak Community willing to train with me here in Sydney. I may be contacted via the youtube message service http://www.youtube.com/user/BalintawakApprentice

Pike

04-10-2008, 06:27 PM

This was lot of posts ago from page 6 (anyone care to read it)

Only used 500ml of Agarol. Like Richard I’ll sign off on this particular thread.

Apprentices last quote:
[I am signing off from this thread and hope that there will still be someone from the Balintawak Community willing to train with me here in Sydney].

Are these ''Men'' of there word (I will let the Balintawak Brotherhood make there own minds up)

''Oh here comes another newby from Oz with his take on teaching''

NUFF SED

Reactor

04-10-2008, 10:28 PM

So Johns 20 years of being involved with Balintawak should be enough time for natural selection to occur??

I think you answered your own question. That he is not accorded the same standing as, say GM Taboada, to cite just one example, after all this time suggests much. This is not a slight on Mr. Russell, just an observation.

As to why this is so, who knows. Perhaps the fact that Mr. Russell is a foreigner has something to do with it. (Personally, I think it shouldn't). Perhaps Mr. Russell prefers to be low-key. Perhaps he is not well-represented in the community. Whatever the reason, it is what it is.

Thanks for the sage advice. Maybe you should ask Nick or Monie about John? Mr Velez? which one? Do you know all these guys personally or have you made an assumption of their skill level by what you have heard or read from others. Now I'm not casting any doubt about their skill or ability in Balintawak; however, if you haven't trained with all these guys personally where is your frame of reference if it doesn't come from others. As a case in point 15 years ago instructors like Nick Elizar were unknown to the Balintawak community outside the Visayas. Before Nick had his own website John promoted him on his.

To answer your question, community respect is my frame of reference. While not a statistically established one (at least not at this point), to my mind, it is a de facto standard.

A good starting point, though, would be a peer review, such as the book of Mr. Galang, Warrior Arts of the Philippines. Primarily an Illustrisimo practitioner, Mr. Galang cites in his book the Balintawak masters who have earned his respect and who, he believes, are deserving of their status.

It is not my goal to make you accept this. It is a personal view, but one that I believe is shared by many.

So if it will help, take away the name of Mr. Velez and leave only those you do respect and re-read. I hope you will agree, however, that Mr. Russell's standing in the Balintawak community is not at par with say, GM Taboada, fair or not.

Incidentally, I have read about Mr. Russell in the past, and I've heard of him from a few people. I am also aware that he has come out with a book, a sterling accomplishment which cannot be gainsaid. But for some reason, he is not spoken of with the same, for want of a better term, esteem, as the other masters I have mentioned.

So in the end, you make my point. I personally know a few of the masters I mentioned. The others, I know of them. Therefore, that I listed their names despite my not knowing them personally speaks of the regard I, and I believe many others, have chosen to accord them.

On a personal note, I would like to say that your loyalty to, admiration of, and desire to promote Mr. Russell are commendable, and I guess proactive marketing will help him gain better prominence in the community (assuming this is his goal), but he really needs a better advocate. As Louis Nizer once said, water seeks its own level.

Also, how do you call someone out?
Simply put, I ask. I go to the individual and tell him I would like to be tested by him; I tell him I would like to learn from him; I tell him I would like to find out if he has something to offer me. I have done this in the past. Pressure-testing onesself, after all, is intrinsic in Balintawak and this is one way of doing it.

Cheers,
Reactor