JKD Naming Issues.

[arnisador]

This isn't exactly a Kali issue, but I was speaking with yet another JKD instructor last night who is shying away from using the JKD name because of both the arguments between original/concepts/nucleus/etc. groups, and the fears that the Lee family is trying to enforce a trademark on "Jeet Kune Do" that would force those using the name to pay them a licensing fee. (Is this true, or just a rumor? I note that Dan Inosanto has started calling it 'Jeet Kuen' (sic) instead, for example.) People traded on the name for years, but now there seems to be something of a backlash against using it!

[ryangruhn]

Where did you see that he was calling it Kuen?


Gruhn

[arnisador]

Look here:
http://inosanto.com/wrapper.php?file=academy_schedule.htm

[ryangruhn]

Interesting,
I think that might actually be a typo. I see it spelled "Kune" in other places on his site. I am a certified instructor under the Inosanto lineage and I think it would take a bit more than a trademark to make people change the way they spell JKD. Besides, looking on the legal side they might have problems justifying why people who were given permission by the man himself are no longer allowed to use the name.


Gruhn

[arnisador]

Could be...I've heard it from a few sources but have yet to see anything in writing that confirms there's a push to enforce some notion of trademark on the name. (I don'tthink it's literally a trademarked term.) I don't know!

[ryangruhn]

Anyone knowledgeable in the trademarks here? I am pretty sure that after a certain amount of time and so many people using it there are problems with trademarking something. For instance I can’t trademark the word “the” because to many people use it and it is common knowledge.


Gruhn

[Marvin Diem]

.

[Nanalo74]

Yeah, Shannon Lee has trademarked the name Jeet Kune Do, the name Bruce Lee, and any likeness thereof, including the JKD Yin/Yang.

Notice that Dan took the symbol off his t-shirts and instead uses a yin/yang with sort of a "ring-of-saturn" thing.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com (http://www.combatartsusa.com)

[ryangruhn]

Weird.

[Diego_Vega]

Anybody else think this is kind of pathetic.

[Nanalo74]

Anybody else think this is kind of pathetic.

Yeah. Big time.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com (http://www.combatartsusa.com)

[arnisador]

I do agree that it is a sad thing, if accurate. Still, I'd like to see something in writing indicating exactly what is happening. Have the Lees issued any sort of statement about this?

[Toasty]

It's true, it's not a typo & it's pathetic.

[dmcdonnell]

I think the pathetic thing is that just about anyone who knows Guro Dan, knows that he would never exploit the name of Bruce Lee and JKD, I think a lot of hthis movement by Shannon is driven by the Wannabee's in the former JKD "Nucleus" who refuse to do anything but the dated stuff Sijo Bruce was doing in the 1960's. I firmly believe that if he were alive today, Sijo Bruce would be doing things in a direction similar to what Dan Inosanto is doing..
Dave

[JPR]

Reguardless of the issue of naming is the wonderful spirit that Guro Inosanto shows about the whole thing. He just seems to ignore the garbage, and go on doing what he is doing. After all, it is just a name. A good example to follow in my mind.

JPR

[arnisador]

Agreed. He's been a definite class act! Bruce Lee certainly chose well in that regard.

[monkey]

Let me say this.I love Inosanto & not 1 thing agian him in his endever for the arts.Let me just point out some facts & youll see why Shannon did what she did.1-On the junfan rakns from Bruce,It has chines conji.All that was stripped & the junfan replaced with Inosanto Accademy of Martial Art.Next it when on in English promoting Larry hartsel as the only senior instructor for the Lee junfan/jeet kune do.Then it gose on to seal with Bruces chop & signed forged name of Bruce Lee as president of the Lee junfan/jeet kune do ect. Counter signed by Inosanto as instructor.This can be found in Hartsels new Gung fu to Grappling book.Also for the many past years while Dan has been teaching seminars He stops at points.While doing patterns from kali & reads from Bruces set pattern quotes.Then he states kali is a set pattern & he never beleaved 100% in what Bruce was teaching.& even when he was with him he stated (I never will-what you tell your kid in the mornig who wants breakfast-fix it your self & use no set pattern.got to go to school find it your self.)Now you see the delema.

[arnisador]

The Sept. 2006 issue of Black Belt magazine sheds some possible light on this. Shannon Lee Keasler, daughter of Bruce Lee, and her mother Linda Lee Caldwell are working on promoting the sites www.brucelee.com (http://www.brucelee.com) and www.bruceleefoundation.com (http://www.bruceleefoundation.com) as part of their focus on the Bruce Lee Foundation. They have or plan scholarships, a museum (to include thousands of his books, many annotated), and--to the point--a seminar series featuring at least Ted Wong and Taky Kimura and an instructor-certification program in what they term "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" to emphasize that it was Bruce Lee's version. It appears from the site that this phrase is now a registered trademark or similarly protected.

Could this be why they wanted more control over the name?

[arnisador]

I meant to mention that the absence of any mention of Dan Inosanto in the article was quite noticeable.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Clearly put Dan Inosanto has moved in the direction that Bruce Lee was moving in. Dan took JKD on the right path as Bruce would have wanted. (at least in my opinion) JKD without Dan is just not JKD anymore. Fortunately Dan is above this and everyone knows that if you want to learn JKD then you had better be training with him or one of his people.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[kroh]

I saw that article in the magazine. I won't tell you what I wanted to use it for. Straight promotion for the sake of making money. I can see trademarking the name to keep the frauds and want to be's from cashing in on something they don't understand, but the rest of it just seems like a lot of hype. If I want Big hype with little return, I can go see a Tom Cruise movie.

God Bless America...
Regards,
Walt

[arnisador]

Straight promotion for the sake of making money.

I think that's a bit harsh...but I have to agree that while some of it seemed motivated by love of their late relative, some of it seemed pretty clearly a gold old American marketing scheme. It's very hard for me to understand how this can happen without Dan Inosanto, for example.

[kroh]

Maybe I am being a bit brash as we are all on the outside of this looking in. There are some pretty good instructors out there using the name of Jeet Kune Do that have lineages that they can trace back to Lee. This manuever seems aimed at forming an organization that would bring all of the LJF/JKD guys under one banner. The problem that I see here is that Lee didn't want his "brand" of kung fu to come out like this. A systemized form locked into stone because ...this is the way that Bruce did it. They are basically turning what he tried to do back into what he was trying to escape from in the first place.

I studied JKD for eight years under a certified instructor. I still train it all the time as it was a great way to train with a definate structure in the beginning. But the end result is to encourage you to break the pattern and see what else you can do with it. If we really want to study the way that Lee did then we have to investigate, disect and, integrate what we study. The articles I read on what the "Lee's" are trying to do sound more like Package, Market, and sell. Sounds pretty anethetical to me.

Inosanto is staying out of it. This is pretty clear. What kind of a message if any does that send?

Regards,
Walt

[arnisador]

They are basically turning what he tried to do back into what he was trying to escape from in the first place.

Sadly, I fear this is exactly correct. As soon as there is an "official" curriculum and a limited set of techniques, you'll have Kenpo or TKD instead.

[Silence_sucks]

Let me say this.I love Inosanto & not 1 thing agian him in his endever for the arts.Let me just point out some facts & youll see why Shannon did what she did.1-On the junfan rakns from Bruce,It has chines conji.All that was stripped & the junfan replaced with Inosanto Accademy of Martial Art.Next it when on in English promoting Larry hartsel as the only senior instructor for the Lee junfan/jeet kune do.Then it gose on to seal with Bruces chop & signed forged name of Bruce Lee as president of the Lee junfan/jeet kune do ect. Counter signed by Inosanto as instructor.This can be found in Hartsels new Gung fu to Grappling book.Also for the many past years while Dan has been teaching seminars He stops at points.While doing patterns from kali & reads from Bruces set pattern quotes.Then he states kali is a set pattern & he never beleaved 100% in what Bruce was teaching.& even when he was with him he stated (I never will-what you tell your kid in the mornig who wants breakfast-fix it your self & use no set pattern.got to go to school find it your self.)Now you see the delema.

You should also realise that guro inosanto was crucial in forming the name jeet kune do as it occured in 1968 while Dan Inosanto and Bruce Lee were driving around in his car. The conversation involved western fencing and Lee commented that;"the most efficient means of countering in fencing was the stop-hit...When the the opponent attacks, you intercept his move with a thrust or hit of your own.." Lee then said "We should call our method the 'stop-hitting fist style;, or the 'intercepting fist style". Dan Inosanto then said; "What would that be in Chinese?" in which Lee replied "That would be Jeet Kune Do". Sifu lee passed jeet kune do over to Guro inosanto when he died and Guro inosanto intended to pass it on to Brandon lee, this is why Guro inosanto has never retired. Guro inosanto has been dedicated and creditied Sifu lee at every opportunity despite the fact that overall Guro inosanto has done more in his lifetime to progress jeet kune do than even sifu lee himself (fact not disrespect). Linda lee and Shannon Lee are 100% NOT certified in jeet kune do on the other hand and have only abused the memory of sifu lee by suing his best friend and using his image to market mars bar. It is a simple matter of money and linda lee cashing in, now every uncertified no name jeet kune do school can be sued by her as well as verified instructors. The only reason there is an 'Australian Jeet Kune Do Association' is because there is an agreement worked out between the association and the lee estate. It really is a travesty that this occurred in the name of money

[monkey]

JKD has the trade mark of likeness just as the whole Elvis estate did the same!
To some it is weird-to some protection of the name & likeness from any,
faulse Elvis ect trying to cansh in!
I remeber on Donahue one there was a guy claiming to be Peter Criss from Kiss & with out make up--Few knew of his looks!
Till Peter showed up on stage & with many police!

[Silence_sucks]

ahh.. well no because the lee estate is not protecting Bruce Lees heratige at all, quite the opposite - they desacrated and sold out his image and his reputation for the sake of mars bars, insulted and caused trouble for Dan Inosanto the man who is ironicly protecting and continuing sifu lees work more than they are. Besides like i said neither linda or shannon lee are certified in jkd while Guro Inosanto is if anyone is cashing in its linda and shannon lee.

[halls]

Where was the nucleus and these "original" instructors after Bruce's death? They didn't care for preserving JKD until they found a way to franchise it.

Who knows where Bruce would have evolved the art if he were still alive. He could have kept it the same or developed it in a different path than Guro Dan. All that matters is that Guro Dan (and Richard Bustillo) chose to preserve the art and continue to teach. Not to capitalize on the profits to be made, but to teach those who wanted to learn the art of someone that they had admired.

[arnisador]

This argument has made its way to the Wikipedia entry for JKD now, where editors are arguing over whether only certain instructors deserve to be listed as JKD practitioners/students.

[Brock]

I think that the argumant could be made that JKD could be considered a Generic term like Karate or Kung-fu, and that the Lee Estate should maybe have Copyrighted it as Bruce Lee's JKD or something. Maybe that sounds a little goofy, but it's really no more goofy than copyrighting a name that never was supposed to be used as defining an "art" anyway.

[arnisador]

In fact, they did trademark/register it as "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" (see post #18), I assume for just that reason--if it's not "generic" (and I think there's a case that can be made there) then at least it's very widespread.

[jus_dann]

oh yea, i just can not stand the DRAMA and politics

[mikesf]

Anybody else think this is kind of pathetic.

Not at all - there are so many people now claiming to 'teach JKD'. Everyone wants to be associated with Bruce Lee - that is the bottom line.

People don't want what real JKD training is all about - they want the association to Bruce Lee and the perception of 'the ultimate martial art'.

The people who actually are/were have to excert some kind of control and mediation otherwise the fakers will gain even more steam and in 10 years the general public will be even more misinformed.

The arguments over it are endless - it's a philosophy, it's street fighting, it's a training method, it died with Bruce..

It's just sometimes the fakers get so loud with their nonsense the people who actually had association with Lee are FORCED to do something about it.

This is Shannon Lee's father - of course she has the right to trademark anything associated with her father's celebrity.

The real guys (few really good ones - certified by Dan), who I've met who 'do JKD' don't obsess over the name - they just train.

There is a lot more access to proven scientific martial arts now than there was in Lee's era - yet people still crave the Bruce Lee association an obsess over the name he gave to his art.


Mike

[mikesf]

ps..

Did I just read that they sued Dan?

If so that is aweful.. and taking things a little too far.

of all the people who should be able to use it..


Mike

[arnisador]

This issue has been quiet for a while now...is it too optimistic of me to hope that it has passed by?

[Brock]

This issue has been quiet for a while now...is it too optimistic of me to hope that it has passed by?

I'm sure it'll come up again, but as someone said in a previous post. The people that really train it don't worry about the name (Inosanto himself stopped using JKD and uses something different) they just train.

[Imua Kuntao]

I trained in JKD a little under E. Barry Perrino. I think it would be a mistake to do so. It would go against all JKD stands for.

[JunFanFighter]

The real guys (few really good ones - certified by Dan), who I've met who 'do JKD' don't obsess over the name - they just train.


Mike

While I see a need to distinguish whos teaching true JKD I think its sad that the legality and red tape has to be associated with it when Lee himself always said 'Its only a name, Dont fuss over it'.

[kroh]

Of course you have students that want to say that they do 100% JKD from the source. Here is an opinion...

Bruce really was never certified in anything. He was an actor with a vivid admiration for martial arts and studied it reverently. He was an inovator for his time as he said that everyone fussed too much over the trappings and not enough on the important stuff... actually being able to fight.

Who cares who knows what from where if you can actually throw it down when you need too. I know young mid level (green and brown belts) in certain martial arts that can kick the crap out of some so called "masters." That shouldn't diminish the knowledge of the master or the ability of the mid level. Both have worked hard to get where they are. Both have knowledge, it is just that one is more dedicated to the functional part and one is more dedicated to the "social" part.

The point here is... the ability to protect yourself or fight when called to (for legitimate reasons) should trump the need to put a logo on something or say that you know one art or another. In certain countries... they don't have foreign names for the arts... they pass it onto their kids and say... "this is for the family." Let's face it. When you need to protect yourself, the person you have to fight is not going to berate you after you kick his tail, saying, "that is not the way REAL JKD guys do a Lop Sao into a Tan dar... man you aint real!" If we know how to fight... the only sounds comming from our "poor opponent" should be muffled groans or pleas for an ambulance.

In recent years, you hear a lot of jostling back and forth regarding who is doing JKD and who isn't. You here "this is my personal JKD..." and other associated nonsense. If you are doing something other than what Bruce did, it is not JKD. Jeet Kune Do means intercepting fist method... does your fighting include these methods? But that doesn not diminish what you are doing. You could have something more advanced and streamlined on your hands... just not JKD.

In the end... what is more important, having the name brand that "might" work for you or the custom made which "will" work for you. Is it really that important to say that you do this or that or is that just wanting to belong to the group ("i do belong to this cool martial art, JKD...")?

JKD is a cool art, but a lot of folks have taken what Lee started and moved on... Both crews have something valuable on their hands... to get bogged down in naming issues demeans both... Too bad.


Regards,
Walt

[Kailat]

Walt: I totally agree

[Kailat]

Jeet Kune Do- Bruce Lee- Intercepting Fist Way-JKDLOGO-
McDonalds-Bigmac-Quarter Pounder-McNugget
Wal-Mart-Sam's Club-Sam Walton

Ok so If I or anyone in my immediate family had created or own something (anything) that people begin to make profit off of, or begin to extort I would feel responsible that it is not being passed off as illegitimate.

Many people I have met have claimed to teach JKD or having some ties to Bruce Lee himself. When in fact it is just false and mere B.S. and the farthest from JKD.

I having studied Bruces philosophies and ways,ideas, principles etc.. from a few of his original students and by far would never call what I do or teach from that JKD. Out of just mere respect for what he spend his life and soul in creating. I feel once someone has reached the level of proficiency in a system or gained instructorship level etc.. It should be a time to develope and begin looking within to see what works for them and create thier own specific system.

Thats just my opinion.

[kroh]

And the exploitation that you are describing is most likely why the Lee's have stepped up so aggressivelly (maybe too agressively in some spots).

All the politics just makes a mess out of something that is in essence, simple.

Good Point...
Regards,
Walt

[Leif T. Røbekk]

Hi..

The problem here is that if you want to learn Bruce Lees JKD, you cant do that in a seminar with fore eksample Hartsell, Inosanto, Bustillo .. Most of the things they do in a seminar is not JKD.

[Kali Cowboy]

Face it. Unless you can go into the afterlife and talk to him, you will never know which way the Late Great Master Bruce Lee, would have taken his art. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is ass-u-me-ing what he might have done. A lot of people have made a lot of money off his name and the name of JKD for a long long time, it is about time it was stopped and some respect paid. Who lost the most here? Who has made the most? Be honest.

[arnisador]

Battling to Make Bruce Lee a Lucrative Brand (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703816204574485944207879508.html)

As Interest Grows in China, His Daughter Buys Rights, Forms Companies and Signs Deals (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703816204574485944207879508.html)


Shannon Lee, the daughter and heir of martial-arts expert Bruce Lee, is trying to add some pow to the late movie star's legacy.



In a bid to tap into growing interest in Mr. Lee in China and to develop her father into a powerhouse global brand, Ms. Lee last year bought back the rights to his image from General Electric Co.'s Universal Studios, which had held them since the late 1980s. "They didn't put the effort behind it I felt should be put behind it," she says. Universal declined to comment.