Little Little stick

[Datu AbdulJakul Salsalani]

hello I see angel cabales his use a little stick because his small like the midget selling watermelon seed on the docks and then I see he have a disciple who possesses the height of Abdul Jabbar but they are also using a small stick too?

Please if your gentleman can perhaps expound further on why it is always using a small stick to further advance my understandings on this matter and erradicate my ignorances.

Thanks

Datu Abdul Jakul Salsalani

[tsefreeflow]

No reason to yell at us =0)
Anyway, This is a close quarter system so the shorter weapon is condusive to the art. In De Cuerdas the blocks are braced and then followed with corto striking. The goal of Serrada is to "close" in tight, lock and not just stand out in middle range (which does not exist) and swing at someones arms or whatever.
The history of the art was brought about with short swords (18") because the warriors attacked things such as ships which had many obsitacles which would not allow any use of longer weapons. I will just leave it at that for now.

[MichaelJB]

...stand out in middle range (which does not exist) and swing...

I've been taught and also teach (in multiple arts, not just the FMA's) that there is a middle range. Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I'm wondering if this may just be a matter of semantics...

[tsefreeflow]

There is no middle range in Serrada. Of course other arts have a middle range, so I can see how other systems you teach and learn would have it.

[lhommedieu]

The history of the art was brought about with short swords (18") because the warriors attacked things such as ships which had many obsitacles which would not allow any use of longer weapons. I will just leave it at that for now.

There was also the factor of fighting in close quarters on board ships as well as the development of a style for fighting on loading docks full of men and cargo (the target of raids by pirates, etc. or the site of disputes by different groups of dock workers). There is also a nice thread on www.bladeforums.com (http://www.bladeforums.com) that addresses the use of an even shorter stick by Sam Tendencia; I make the point that Stockton farm workers probably used an longer agricultural knife of some kind and that short sticks are a logical surrogate. Some Serrada practitioners that I've talked to say that while Serrada works perfectly well as a short stick system it excels as a long knife/short sword system.

Best,

Steve

[MichaelJB]

TSE: Doh...I wasn't reading your post as a Serrada-only answer. Now, thinking only Serrada, your response makes sense. We also don't have middle range when we practice Serrada-only. However, we DO have middle range when I switch to SLD, which is closer to the system I actually train. Thanks for the clarification.

[pguinto]

Upon observation of a practice session, serrada eskrimadors only appear to be playing in the middle ground; countering then striking the weapon hand. However, this is done only for practice. Players practice the counters with the understanding that in combat, they will crash into the attack by closing hard to corto (close) range when countering, followed with strikes primarily to the head and/or body. In corto range, the shorter stout weapon is best suited as it allows for greater mobility, freer movements with increased maneuverability, as well as metagame expansion and contraction. A heartier weapon helps to provide a solid counter with greater absorption. A harder weapon, ie kamagong, ensures a crushing/crippling blow.


...After countering, striking takes place on the opponent's weapon hand. This is done for practice purposes only to teach the student centralization of the weapon. In a combat situation, once the counter is applied, the 1st strike will often go straight to the head or body...close immediately and shut down opponent... - excerpt from Serrada Eskrima: Basic Concepts Vol 1 dvd by Master Tacosa

Bear in mind that in combat, opponents do not start out in fighting range; ie opponents initially have to bridge a large gap to get to the serrada player. Furthermore, serrada players will contract (shrink), providing a smaller target making it more difficult to land a good hit. Thus forcing an opponent to overcommit while attacking. The serrada player will recognize this point of no return and take advantage of it. At point fo impact, a solid base (footing/stance), combined with being compact and tight, will make one's expansion more explosive, thus the countering/striking more powerful.

ALSO, likening GGM Angel Cabales to "...a midget selling watermelon seeds..." shows great disrespect to a highly respected contributor to the FMAs. i hope one of the admins sees your tasteless comments and takes appropriate measures

Edit: I just noticed the ban...

[Imua Kuntao]

Yeah in the 70's escrima was said to be a "crash and bash art".

[lhommedieu]

Bear in mind that in combat, opponents do not start out in fighting range; ie opponents initially have to bridge a large gap to get to the serrada player. Furthermore, serrada players will contract (shrink), providing a smaller target making it more difficult to land a good hit. Thus forcing an opponent to overcommit while attacking. The serrada player will recognize this point of no return and take advantage of it. At point fo impact, a solid base (footing/stance), combined with being compact and tight, will make one's expansion more explosive, thus the countering/striking more powerful.

Indeed, this is a point recognized by styles that use longer weapons: maintaining distance is also essential to keep the Serrada player from bridging the gap and taking advantage of a shorter weapon at short range. But even with styles that concentrate on a shorter range (Serrada, Balintawak, Pekiti Tirsia, etc.) maintaining distance is similarly crucial relative to the weapons that they are using.

Best,

Steve

[pguinto]

There are many benefits for practicing with a short weapon.

The shorter weapons force the player closer to the opponent. Continued practice in ever tightening ranges, acclimates the players to comfortably operate in this zone. It helps to allay fears of tussling toof 'n nail. Furthermore, operating in close, develops a player's ability to react to movements in the periphery. This is where high level sensitivity training will shine; the ability to react without opticially seeing, instead one is using the mind's eye to see.

On top of that, serrada players understand that anything that is done corto and tight can also be done largo and wide. This is one reason serrada players practice at a medium range; so that they can comfortably float from corto to largo.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I love teaching and changing the lengths of the tools that we are utilizing. I also enjoy mismatching a longer tool against a shorter one so that the practitioner has to adapt to the different length's. In a moment of personal protection we probably will not be able to choose the length of the opponent's weapon so I think practiticing with all differnt kinds is very, very important! http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[lhommedieu]

This is one reason serrada players practice at a medium range; so that they can comfortably float from corto to largo.

Different art, same idea. Here the "float" is from medio/largo to largo:

http://www.northshoreac.com/momoy2.jpg

[eskrima]

My first instructor use to have us practice our counters in a "phone booth". not really in a phone booth, but in the same floor space. The foot work, everything. He is the only instructor that did this.

Do any of you do this ?

[pguinto]

My first instructor use to have us practice our counters in a "phone booth". not really in a phone booth, but in the same floor space. The foot work, everything. He is the only instructor that did this.

Do any of you do this ?
Sounds like the perfect floor space for Split-Stepping, in another word, yes.


ihom, sererada eskrimadors practice those movements and that footwork too. While doing TSE (now known as TC/E), Ive trained doing drills/counters/strikes where we float btwn medio & largo range. There is a common misconception that serrada players only practice at corto/medio ranges. They practice all the ranges vs all weapon sizes, while using the appropriate footwork for whatever ranges u are operating in. Further, they do plenty of largo; for example, the coconut cinco teros drill, strikes and counters, etc. As for me, I remember even doing some staff work, LOVED IT!!!

All the ranges are worked, however the execution of an opponent occurs in his face.

[pguinto]

They practice all the ranges vs all weapon sizes, while using the appropriate footwork for whatever ranges u are operating in. Further, they do plenty of largo; for example, the coconut cinco teros drill, strikes and counters, etc.
I just remembered a youtube clip that illustrates some of the stuff we would practice. We did this stuff with both long and short weapons. The fun times were when one would have a long weapon and the other a short weapon. ENJOY the clip!!!:


OtSnmvzFWWs

[ScorpioVI]

We use little sticks to compensate for our bigger sticks...

[Brian R. VanCise]

I just remembered a youtube clip that illustrates some of the stuff we would practice. We did this stuff with both long and short weapons. The fun times were when one would have a long weapon and the other a short weapon. ENJOY the clip!!!:


OtSnmvzFWWs

Hey pguinto, I enjoyed your clip. http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Thanks.

[Lam Ang]

hello I see angel cabales his use a little stick because his small like the midget selling watermelon seed on the docks and then I see he have a disciple who possesses the height of Abdul Jabbar but they are also using a small stick too?

Please if your gentleman can perhaps expound further on why it is always using a small stick to further advance my understandings on this matter and erradicate my ignorances.

Thanks

Datu Abdul Jakul Salsalani


.......Mr. ABDUL "MASTURBATED THE MASTURBATOR".......u don't deserved to be in the Martial Arts World.

[StixMaster]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/Nokaoimaui/webcabales6a.jpg
Thats just the way GGM Angel taught was with the short stick but you can use 24" stick the style works with that length as well. The short stick works well on inside when one is close to opponent, takes out the hand fast, then takeout the elbow fast!! The stick is short so it moves fast up close !!

[arnisador]

So the short stick makes it easier to target the elbow? In arnis we often target the wrist but then go for the head (with 28" sticks).

[pguinto]

So the short stick makes it easier to target the elbow? In arnis we often target the wrist but then go for the head (with 28" sticks).

...After countering, striking takes place on the opponent's weapon hand...for practice purposes only... In a combat situation... the 1st strike will often go straight to the head or body...close immediately and shut down opponent...
- from Serrada Eskrima: Basic Concepts Vol 1 dvd by Master Tacosa

All serrada players should know internally that once you counter, you attack the head/body. That said, try to think outside the box on this one. One way (of myriad others) of practicing counters is to sometimes go from the hand to the wrist to the forearm to elbow to the shoulder to the neck to the head, or any combo thereof. Doesnt this sound quite a bit like cadena and/or blade work? All cadena movenment has its roots in the stick movement. So when you see serrada players practicing these mid range strikes, they are laying/re-enforcing the foundations for cadena/knife movements; traps, grappling, destructions, etc. The shorter sticks allow the players to practice tight movements in extremely close quarters.

[arnisador]

Ah, that makes sense! Thanks.

[Jon Ward]

There are indeed Media and Larga techniques within Serrada.

[geezer]

There are indeed Media and Larga techniques within Serrada.

Jon, when you were out in the Phoenix area last weekend you said that GGM Cabales used a variety of sticks, some quite long, stepping out to largo. Could you elaborate?

[Jon Ward]

Hey Sir!

Sure, GGM Cabales used a 28" to 26" inch stick in the 1960's and 70's at least. I am not quite sure when the shorter weapon came into common use. There are a variety theories that have come up regarding this change.

There are indeed several Larga movements that GGM Cabales used, the one that stand outs in my mind is his variation of the outside pass, where he steps at a 90 degree angle as opposed to stepping in at a 45.

Hope this helps.

[StixMaster]

In the 80s was when I met him & he used the shorter stick then. Met him around 84, he started us with 18" stick. From that you could learn knife moves as well.http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/Nokaoimaui/Angel6.jpg See that is a shorter stick then normal ! http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/Nokaoimaui/webcabales6a.jpg

[geezer]

Hey Sir!

Sure, GGM Cabales used a 28" to 26" inch stick in the 1960's and 70's at least. I am not quite sure when the shorter weapon came into common use. There are a variety theories that have come up regarding this change.
There are indeed several Larga movements that GGM Cabales used, the one that stand outs in my mind is his variation of the outside pass, where he steps at a 90 degree angle as opposed to stepping in at a 45.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the clarification. Say, by the way, doesn't it strike you all as pretty ironic that the most active thread in this section started out as a total troll piece, by a now banned user, that really dissed GGM Cabales???
Maybe we should get some new discussions started and bury this "Little-little stick..." thread? I'll begin by starting a new thread asking for more info on Serrada ranges. Please respond!

[pguinto]

i dont mind it

someone shows disrespect, he gets PWNed

[arnisador]

Maybe we should get some new discussions started and bury this "Little-little stick..." thread? I'll begin by starting a new thread asking for more info on Serrada ranges.

Thanks! I'll follow your advice and close this thread. I would've done it sooner save for the productive discussions that followed.

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin