Range question: Serrada and Balintawak

[Rich Parsons]

From this post: http://www.fmatalk.com/showpost.php?p=2016&postcount=3

in thread: http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=310

The comparison that Serrada is not as close as Balintawak, intrigues me.

I have seen a Serrada demo and they use shorter sticks (* 24" *), and I have done Balintawak since 1998, and Balintwak use about 28" sticks and the range is considered to be closer.

Just curious, and thought I would start a discussion on this.

Thank you

[lhommedieu]

Interesting question. Generally longer weapons dictate longer ranges - but other factors may come into play.

As a matter of pure conjecture: Balintawak evolved out of its founder's involvement with the Saavedras and the Doce Pares Club into a stick-fighting (dueling) art that took place in the narrow back alleys, rooms, and courtyards of Cebu. (It's interesting to note that Cacoy Canete's art took a similar turn.) Hence a desire to close, jam, trap, and hit quickly at corto range. Your stikes are short, percussive, and use alot of ricochet (de cuerdas?).

Serrada's slightly longer range makes sense it you substitue a 24" machete or similar weapon (e.g. a short cutlass) for the stick. In this case you have a highly precise, tight method suitable for fighting while you're defending a ship or in the middle of a dockyard melee - but you still have enough distance to generate an ugly slash with your weapon.

Just my 2 cents - I don't study either art, so I may be off-base on this one.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Rich Parsons]

Interesting question. Generally longer weapons dictate longer ranges - but other factors may come into play.

As a matter of pure conjecture: Balintawak evolved out of its founder's involvement with the Saavedras and the Doce Pares Club into a stick-fighting (dueling) art that took place in the narrow back alleys, rooms, and courtyards of Cebu. (It's interesting to note that Cacoy Canete's art took a similar turn.) Hence a desire to close, jam, trap, and hit quickly at corto range. Your stikes are short, percussive, and use alot of ricochet (de cuerdas?).

Serrada's slightly longer range makes sense it you substitue a 24" machete or similar weapon (e.g. a short cutlass) for the stick. In this case you have a highly precise, tight method suitable for fighting while you're defending a ship or in the middle of a dockyard melee - but you still have enough distance to generate an ugly slash with your weapon.

Just my 2 cents - I don't study either art, so I may be off-base on this one.

Best,

Steve Lamade


I agree with your comments here in particular with the limited demo I saw, as the thrusts and strikes would be very condusive to a blade that size.

[darkpaperino]

Interesting question. Generally longer weapons dictate longer ranges - but other factors may come into play.

As a matter of pure conjecture: Balintawak evolved out of its founder's involvement with the Saavedras and the Doce Pares Club into a stick-fighting (dueling) art that took place in the narrow back alleys, rooms, and courtyards of Cebu. (It's interesting to note that Cacoy Canete's art took a similar turn.) Hence a desire to close, jam, trap, and hit quickly at corto range. Your stikes are short, percussive, and use alot of ricochet (de cuerdas?).

Serrada's slightly longer range makes sense it you substitue a 24" machete or similar weapon (e.g. a short cutlass) for the stick. In this case you have a highly precise, tight method suitable for fighting while you're defending a ship or in the middle of a dockyard melee - but you still have enough distance to generate an ugly slash with your weapon.



in fact - that's the point! having some experience in both, serrada and balintawak, it's very interesting to see the differences in both styles as well as what they have in common.

when I had my first balintawak lesson, I used my "short" serrada stick and I really had problems protecting myself against the fast strikes from my teacher who hit me from a distance I never thought someone could strike with a longer stick than I was used. I always thought, serrada plays a close game but that was much closer!!! I tried to use my stick as a stick and doing so - my teacher just closed the distance, and strikes, punches and traps destroyed my attempt to hold the distance.

it was very important to understand that serrada is a blade art! a lot of the techniques are considerd to be carried out in blade fighting and do not make sense using a stick. Just try to do free flow or just the counters with a bolo instead of the stick and you'll see!

[nash]

it was very important to understand that serrada is a blade art! a lot of the techniques are considerd to be carried out in blade fighting and do not make sense using a stick. Just try to do free flow or just the counters with a bolo instead of the stick and you'll see!

Although Serrada is a blase art, I found that you can convert to a stick quite easily. By taking the slashing movements and doing more a whipping movement, you can use the Serrada form in a stick fight.

[darkpaperino]

Although Serrada is a blase art, I found that you can convert to a stick quite easily. By taking the slashing movements and doing more a whipping movement, you can use the Serrada form in a stick fight.

Yes that's right and I don't deny that. but there are undoubtly techniques which are definitely made only to be carried out with a blade. it is very important to try all the counters with a stick as well with a blade. I know serrada players who are now in their 12th year and they never had even the idea that "something could be different" when they use a blade instead of the stick!

the ability to transform the concepts is very important and once understood how to serrada is one of the finest methods to engage in a stick fight!

[408kali]

I've been taught that Serrada is a blade art from the get-go. As I progressed in my training I was challenged with using different weapons, and the way I would use them differently, i.e., bayonet, bat, chain, bolo, etc.,..

It's good that your friend's eyes were opened to the concept of Serrada as a blade art, because it is. Serrada Espada y Daga (sword & dagger). Once that is engrained in you, the concepts become much clearer. It expands your martial vocabulary, esp. concerning Eskrima/Arnis/Baston/Kali etc.

I find it quite interesting when some groups call it stick fighting. I just think wow they're missing out on the possibilities. On the other hand I see the stick as a functional means of self-defense (esp. hardwood!). The practicality of Serrada is that the movement is so effortlessly translated into knife fighting/stick, which makes alot of sense for our times.

Peace, ~John

[arnisador]

I always thought of it as a stick art like Balintawak because those were the only pictures I ever saw of Angel Cabales, and I identified the art almost entirely with him. It's good to get a more complete picture!

[408kali]

Hey just as an interesting sidenote, I have found another one of Felicisimo Dizon's students, Grand Master Lazo, of Luzviminda Arnis Kali Brotherhood.

As some may know well, Angel Cabales was a student of Dizon's.

The site is www.lakb.net .

Also, I have recently been corresponding with this very nice man who for a very long time preferred to remain low-key. He is a very nice guy! He restores old Philippine weapons, and is also a Panday (bladesmith). I hope to visit him one day!

Peace, ~John

[nash]

I find it quite interesting when some groups call it stick fighting. I just think wow they're missing out on the possibilities. On the other hand I see the stick as a functional means of self-defense (esp. hardwood!). The practicality of Serrada is that the movement is so effortlessly translated into knife fighting/stick, which makes alot of sense for our times.

Peace, ~John


It's weird, when I talk to people that have been in Escrima for a while, they tend to think that Serrada is a stick art. One thing I learned that every stick that is used in the art of Escrima, no matter what style, is really a substitute for something else. In my studies I found that the most of the longer sticks were actually farm tools that the farmers would use in defense.

[gold_chapter]

http://www.lakb.net/gmlazo.html

http://www.lakb.net/images/gmlazo/gm_lazo_bio.jpg


Grand Master Lazo's early training as an Arnisador was filled by many colorful experiences and fascinating characters, many of who were expert martial artists. Their common love and appreciation for their arts led so many of these experts and even masters to share their knowledge with the hungry young student whose intense devotion to training was plain for all to see. Beginning with his father he learned the Ilocano art of stick fighting called “Kabaroan,” which is also known by its older classical name of “Didya”. Kabaroan or Didya is noted for it long-range techniques and devastating striking power.

His next teacher was actually the legendary Felicisimo Dizon. Master Dizon was feared for his close range Serrada style, and rightly so. GM Lazo trained with him as a youth, when Master Dizon would come to the house in order to treat an illness that his aunt was experiencing. Years later the training with Master Dizon would resume, and during this period it was considerably more intense due to Grand Master Lazo’s more advanced skills that had been accumulated over time. They trained together right up until Master Dizon’s death. Afterward Grand Master Lazo became better acquainted with Master Dizon’s son, Boy Dizon, who was an accomplished Arnisador in his own right. These two enjoyed a lengthy relationship as friends and sparring partners.


Felicisimo Dizon was also from Cebu, correct?

[StixMaster]

One could venture to say that Serrada , Balintawak & Kombatan are cousins. The lineages show that in GM Lazo's bio. Range is relative to the circumstances that the combat situation provides. But closing range and distance and fighting inside close makes good sense to me. Hope to meet this man someday.

[arnisador]

One could venture to say that Serrada , Balintawak & Kombatan are cousins.

I would believe that!

[pahhhoul]

...bump

[geezer]

This thread began as a comparison of ranges using sticks. My experience in Serrada is limited to a few workouts with some great guys from that system, and I only know Balintawak from a couple of afternoons working out with an equally terrific guy named Sam Buot, back in the late '80s. But, since both Serrada and Balintawak are complete systems, involving sticks, knives and empty hands, the issue of range can't be explained by weapons preference alone...Or body type and size, either. It comes down to your technique, style, comfort zone and attitude. I trained in the Latosa system (which largely evolved from Cabales Serrada) and Wing Tsun, and perhaps most importantly, did wrestling as a youth (what you do as a child stays with you the longest). I'm smallish (5'8"), not particularly strong or skilled, so common sense says I should keep my distance. But, my "comfort zone" is in close...Hit with the stick, punyo, fist, elbow, shoulder, hell...head butt if you feel like it...Trap, grapple and throw. And I don't know much about knives, except to respect them a lot. In short, I guess I'm, saying that a system's--or a player's preferred range isn't just a matter of knife vs. stick.

[Dagadiablo]

Serrada is a blade art. As a stick art it is almost useless. Seriously. Most Serrada players are still think it is a simple stick art but under closer analysis, it's movements are much, much deeper than what is taught. Balintawak plays closer with a longer stick because it's overall goal is to develop sensitivity to your opponent's movement of attack at a very close range. Balintawak's sticks movement's are more to develop empty hand fighting, whereas Serrada--at medium range-is more for knife trapping, zoning, checking and locking. In addition, Serrada really means "to close" not "close" like mosty current generation Serrada players play it.

Mabuhay

[StixMaster]

GGM Angel was real good with a blade, in fact once when I was with him to pick up some Chinese take-out, the owner of that restaurant in Stockton, Ca. told me in front of Angel how good he was with a Bowie knife. Serrada is based on blade but you can use it stick way too, its all in the tip with the body torque, footwork and chi, it will be effective with the stick too, especially with the gates, chance em brah, multiple strikes more small kine figure 8s(abanico) moves. More control with the shorter stick - 24"-18" especially with 'bahi or kamagong' Like boxing with a stick in your hand. Anyway I when walaau too much already, Aloha A hui ho