What if's: Across the Styles!!!

[Palusut]

An untrained assailant attempts a full power horizontal slash across your throat with a cutting instrument.

How would you handle this?


This is a self-defense discussion only. Use/practice at your own risk.
We are not trying to analyze or ascertain what led to this scenario but to we are discussing "What if(s) for how to counter it.
It doesn't matter what the attacking weapon is except that it can cut.
How would you handle this with empty-hands, legal carry blade, legal carry ASP/Baton, or object at hand?
Let the discussions begin

[lhommedieu]

An untrained assailant attempts a full power horizontal slash across your throat with a cutting instrument.

How would you handle this?

This is a self-defense discussion only. Use/practice at your own risk.
We are not trying to analyze or ascertain what led to this scenario but to we are discussing "What if(s) for how to counter it.
It doesn't matter what the attacking weapon is except that it can cut.
How would you handle this with empty-hands, legal carry blade, legal carry ASP/Baton, or object at hand?Let the discussions begin

I'll bite; here's a sampler. Assuming a right-hand, forehand, horizontal slash...

Counters with ASP/Baton or sword or any long object at hand:

San Miguel Eskrima (1):

Step left foot back (to make range) and parry opponent's weapon with right-hand forehand parry (tip up) OR attack opponent's weapon hand with right-hand, forehand, downward diagonal slash

As his weapon passes through, attack his exposed right flank.

San Miguel Eskrima (2):

Step left foot forward (you can't make range) and jam opponent's weapon arm with right-hand umbrella (tip down) as you extend your left arm from underneath (your raised left shoulder is a barrier for your throat and a buttress for your weapon) and thrust daga into opponent's throat.

Counters with knife:

Estacada-Knife:

Side-step to right as your knife meets his right hand. Follow-up with multiple stabs and slashes.

Counters with empty hand:

San Miguel Eskrima (Combat Judo):

Step left foot forward on left side of female triangle (flank to left) as left-hand Ox-hand strike attacks his wrist and right-hand punches the inside of his elbow. Figure-four to throw. Finishes on the floor (Kajukenbo).

Estacada-Kajukenbo:

Raise both hands and step in to jam strike. Strike to head/immobilize his weapon hand (grab or pin). Wrap his head to throw or break neck.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Sheldon Bedell]

answere might depend on short vs. long blade coming at you. I would not counter a machete the same as I would a pocket knife. Other than to block and control or step out of range and counter attack, from there it differs depending on blade length and the abikity to have the weapon come back at me if I block and the attacker can bend his wrist

[arnisador]

With a ctik or knife, if it's in his right hand and mine is in my right hand, I'd step back and take a strike at the offending hand if range allowed. I'd likely use a forehand strike if my stick started to my right, a hirada or backhand (and I had the room). If that slows him down, check with my left hand and finish with a strike.

If I can't get back, step forward right 45 degrees and C-block (because if I can't get back then I'm probably in tight and late). Check with the left and counter, unless, his hand turns in at the bottom on the block (so his weapon is mor enearly vertical), in which case I might reach over with my left, grab, then circle my hand CCW, guiding his weapon with mine in a large palis move, bringing the weapon point-down on the other side where I could disarm and strike.

Empty-hand: Step forward right 45 degrees, block-check-counter; depending on the energy of the opponent, strike again as needed, then either palis under again to get to a left hand palm upon the bottom of his elbow control while locking the wrist with my right, or step back for a forearm strip disarm (switching to hold with my right, stripping with my left).

[JohnJ]

I would be apt to say that the initial range of engagement will dictate the approach.

If there is enough distance, evade and counter. Let the weapon pass by swaying/rocking and then close with aggressive footwork. Simultaneously, you lead with a backhand shuto, your left hand follows to monitor the attackers elbow. As your strike follows through it automatically wraps up the attacking arm (as an overhook) while the hand that was monitoring the elbow disengages to rip at the eyes and violently bring your opponent down with his eyes (mouth, hair and jaw are options). This must be done with constant forward momentum to stay close to the attacker from preventing his follow-up.

If distance and time permits, step in aggressively jam shoulder and attacking arm. Follow-up with immediate shuto using hand that jams shoulder and add a knee or two. As the assailant buckles, reach around and grab chin from opposite side and break neck.

Like in any self-defense situation "your will to survive must outweigh your opponents determination to do harm". Therefore, your threat assessment must be made quickly and your techniques must be done with explosiveness and must be relentless.

Just my .02 :-)

John J

[Buwaya]

Hi John,

Any reason you rely on the shuto as opposed to a slap, hammer fist, or punch?

I had to figure out what a shuto is, but I had a good guess given your WW2 combatives influence(from your website).

[JohnJ]

Any reason you rely on the shuto as opposed to a slap, hammer fist, or punch? I had to figure out what a shuto is, but I had a good guess given your WW2 combatives influence(from your website).

Hi Buwaya,

Either one will actually work since it is only to "tune-up" your opponent and tansition into some sort of control. I do not use the traditional method (perfectly straight and erect fingers with thumb up) as taught in the WWII methods. I still have a more relaxed approach with a bend in my fingers. Although I do believe that the shuto, edge of hand, blade hand offers a more concentrated level of effectiveness if hitting targets such as the carotid or temple area.

John J

[Buwaya]

Thanks John,

What kind of results have you seen in hitting a person in the cartoid with a shuto?

[JohnJ]

What kind of results have you seen in hitting a person in the cartoid with a shuto?Today 09:32 AM

Hey Buwaya,

Let me clarify since I've never struck someone FULL force in the carotid or better yet side of neck area...at least not yethttp://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon10.gif. Although practice with the Close Combat Group consisted of physical and mental tempering, so to speak. In one partner exercise your partner would have his arms extended to the sides at shoulder level, you would strike his forearm with a forehand shuto and then chop backhand to the side of his neck. Alternating sides of course. Seems almost sadistic but you learned to appreciate the technique as a viable means of striking. Since the carotid sits at the side of the neck, I would assume the inevitable would be a knockout by means of cutting off oxygen or at the very least temporary paralysis in the neck due to the nerves. When I was hit it made me cringe and that was at best, 10-15% power. The strikes to less sensative areas (i.e. forearms) were harder and pretty much deadened the nerves. I left many times unable to open my hands completely cause of the shock to the nerves. Again, not for everyone but education nevertheless.

When I say concentrated, I am referring more to the positioning of the hand for the purpose of utilizing it a cutting tool. Hence, edge of hand or knifehand. The impact becomes more streamlined rather than a larger mass i.e. bottomfist

John J

[lhommedieu]

What kind of results have you seen in hitting a person in the cartoid with a shuto?

If the carotid sinus is struck hard, shock and knock-out is generally achieved. Consider that a blow to the carotid is like a quick choke to the carotid - except that your'e also smashing the baroreceptors in this area.

An alternative to the shuto (perhaps a variation) is the "ox-hand" wherein the wrist is cocked upward, the fingers are loosely curled, and the hand is somewhat vertical. It's almost like a "palm heel" strike - except that you're striking with the ulnar edge of the hand which is snapped towards the target as the wrist cocks upwards and the arm extends and your body weight is put into a small area. You can practice these somewhat to the chest and shoulder; caveats would include not breaking your partner's clavicle or dislocating his shoulder. They work well as jamming blocks (actually attacks) to roundhouse punches, stops to the bicep, shoulder, etc.

For training, you can also diffuse the shock value by using the ulnar edge of your forearm and "shearing" with it against the chest or shoulder - this spreads out the contact area a little. A shearing strike with the ulna to the carotid, however, would probably produce the same effect as the shuto, depending on how hard you hit, and you can still do considerable damage with this strike as well - so be careful.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Buwaya]

Thank you guys,

Steve,
Sounds very Hsing I...Pi chaun? Also sounds like a pekiti forearm shear.

John,
How much tempering would you do at any piont in time? Was it trained in moderation over a period of time or just once specificly to introduce it?

Thanks

[lhommedieu]

Thank you guys,

Steve,
Sounds very Hsing I...Pi chaun?

In essence, yes - because you step in and strike with the same hand/same foot side, etc., and it has that vertical "chopping" qualtiy. It's used a lot in the Kajukenbo sets that I know, as well, and in Pekiti de mano.

After a while these things all seem to blur together...

Best,

Steve

[lhommedieu]

Should have said: the forearm shear is used in Pekiti de Mano. I'm just coming off of a 24 hr. stomach virus...

Best,

Steve