Stick or Sword

[WT_ATL]

Greetings All,

I’d like to hear some of your opinions regarding training.

When training, do you consider the stick a stick or sword?
Is there a benefit of one over the other?
Is it better to stick to one or the other?
If you want to learn both a stick art as well as a blade art, is there a natural order. Should you start with blade techniques first, then transition to stick?
Thoughts?

[Chad]

I think the system determines the order and the proportion. I think it is vital to train with a blade (or trainer) when training blade. The stick, when all is said and done, is just a stick.

[arnisador]

For me, I almost always consider the stick a stick. But it's always surprising to me how often I am cross-training with someone who looks at me like I'm crazy when I grab his stick!

Substituting a stick for a sword is very common; in European practice, the term 'backsword' can refer to a stick used as atraining sword as well as to a type of sword.

Is there a benefit? I think that's art-specific. I think it's more likely I'd use/face a stick than a sword. If you make a different assumption, you'll train differently!

[lhommedieu]

Both. I generally consider a stick a sword and train accordingly. This means that "cuts" with the stick are done with the last 3" or so of the weapon and that my body mechanics ensure that I am "cutting" with the edge of the tip of the stick rather than hacking with it.

BUT I find that one can generally use a stick "as a stick" even if this training methodology is followed if you make sure that

(1) Bony areas are targetted
(2) The tip of stick moves quickly on and off-target (there is no point in pulling the "edge" of a stick through a fleshy target (if you miss a bony one) as there is no real edge
(3) The end of the stick is employed (greatest leverage)

Wittiks that would generally be done with the flat of a sword are also done with a stick following rules 1-3.

The advantage to this method of training is that sword-skills are taught earlier and the transition from stick to swords is easier.

BTW Winston - I was wondering if you guys at SMAK-Stiks could custom make a 33" stick for me?

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Rich Parsons]

Greetings All,

I’d like to hear some of your opinions regarding training.





When training, do you consider the stick a stick or sword?

Yes, as stated by others as well.


Is there a benefit of one over the other?

Yes, it depends upon your goals and what technique you are training, and what system you are studying.


Is it better to stick to one or the other?

Yes and No, once again it depends.


If you want to learn both a stick art as well as a blade art, is there a natural order. Should you start with blade techniques first, then transition to stick?

As stated by others, it depends upon the art, more later in this post.

Thoughts?


If you concentrate on just Blade or just Stick then you can optimize your training for just those aspects. And the optimizations are almost mutually exclusive. By optimizing for the stick you learn how to manage, monitor and delay the stick of your opponent, and you have no problems with touching their weapon. This allows for one to in a range just able to touch their weapon anot the opponent, to being able to touch the weapon and the opponents hand, to being able to touch the opponent. Where is with blade, I have found, that you always are either further out to meet weapon on weapon or you are closer to make sure you can touch the opponents hand. The blade optimizations allow for the distancing and covering of ground, and being aware of the edge of the blade and not letting it touch you,

:asian:

[Danny T]

I train as both stick and blade. My thought being I may have a stick or a blade. In my area ( South Louisiana ) at this time of the year you would be surprised how many people have cane knives or machetes. Or I may be faced against a blade. Training to use a stick or blade has already been covered however what about going against a blade or a stick. There are some major differences. Though I don't want to take a hit with a stick it is something I may get away with however against a blade? When you start training against a blade you will certainly change your perspective about grabbing the weapon rather than the weapon hand or wrapping your arm around the blade. Against a stick sure grab the stick but what happens "IF" it turns out to be a blade? Case in point: Around 15-16 years ago I was in New Orleans for the Mardis Gras. During one of the pradeas a large group of people suddenly started shouting, screaming and scurring off to one side of me. A person in custume was beating another person with what appeared to be a stick covered with cloth and tassels. An alert police officer immediatly grabbed the "stick" only to learn it was a machete. Officer had two fingers severed from his right hand. There are many things you can get away with against a stick however if it is a blade what kind of damage will you incur?
I don't believe the art will signify how to train, You decide and train accordingly.
What are you training for? The art, defense, competition, combat, or whatever, you must then train based upon that reality and just because you have trained for one doesn't mean you will be good in the other.

Danny

[arnisador]

Machete attacksare on th euprise worldwide; e.g., in Australia.

For stick vs. blade, I think of the story of Miyamoto Musashi and his jo-wielding opponent!

[Sheldon Bedell]

When I train with a stick I tend to see it as a stick and have to stop to consider what would have happened if it where a blade. When I train with a blade I know darn well what I am faceing
Some techniques will work well with a stick and not cost you dearly if you mess up but if it where a blade the story is different. I think all of us who use a stick to train with realise this

[WT_ATL]

BTW Winston - I was wondering if you guys at SMAK-Stiks could custom make a 33" stick for me?

Best,

Steve Lamade

Hi Steve,

We've done custom lengths before, email me your contact info and I can provide you with some details.

wtamisin@smakstiks.com.

[lhommedieu]

Winston,

Done. Thank you.

Best.

Steve

[Christopher Umbs]

Unless I'm specifically doing cane, then I'm always thinking blade (of course as a trad fencer, I usually HAVE a blade in my hand). When I'm doing cane I have to remind myself on occasion that there's no edge and I should 'put a little more body English' into it... more from the hips and what not.

Chris

[Cruentus]

I train a stick as a stick, a sword as a sword. There is usefulness in doing it differently, though.

As far as which is "better," I am not getting into that too much. But what I will say is that I like to train the stick better for overall development of martial skill, because I think that the skills of my stickwork translate well to empty hand or other weapons, including bladed. If I had a choice of which to bring to the fight, I'd of course pick sword just because the overall trauma potential is far greater.

I think that regardless of which one prefers, one should train both.

Paul

[WT_ATL]

remind myself[/b] on occasion that there's no edge and I should 'put a little more body English' into it... more from the hips and what not.

Chris

Great point Chris. This is what actually prompted my post. Since the targets of a stick and blade different, the body mechanics during their use would also differ (i.e., generating power would be more of a priority with a stick then a blade.). Additionally, the techniques are not interchangable.

My concern was if I tried to train both, would the cross training hurt the other's applicaiton? I have limited time to train as it is, so I'm leaning more toward stick as stick, since I don't think I'm going to encounter many bolos in Atlanta. By doing this, am I hurting my over all training?

Thanks,

Winston.

[Cruentus]

Great point Chris. This is what actually prompted my post. Since the targets of a stick and blade different, the body mechanics during their use would also differ (i.e., generating power would be more of a priority with a stick then a blade.). Additionally, the techniques are not interchangable.

My concern was if I tried to train both, would the cross training hurt the other's applicaiton? I have limited time to train as it is, so I'm leaning more toward stick as stick, since I don't think I'm going to encounter many bolos in Atlanta. By doing this, am I hurting my over all training?

Thanks,

Winston.

That's a no to training both being harmful to one another, depending on your approach. Remy Presas pretty well proved that by teaching how things were "all the same." A stick was still a stick, and a blade a blade, but he focused on the similarities between the weapons, and isolated the differences. If you train in this way, your work with one weapon should actually help your training in another.

Paul

[arnisador]

I like to train the stick better for overall development of martial skill, because I think that the skills of my stickwork translate well to empty hand or other weapons

I agree. On the otehr hand, I also feel that the knife adds greatly to open-handed capabilities, as the Sayocs have shown. But the sword less so--wrong range, and since the live hand comes out less often, it isn't trained as it is with the stick. Those are two of the big advantages of stick/knife training: Different ranges, and getting the second hand to be very mobile.

[lhommedieu]

That's a no to training both being harmful to one another, depending on your approach. Remy Presas pretty well proved that by teaching how things were "all the same." A stick was still a stick, and a blade a blade, but he focused on the similarities between the weapons, and isolated the differences. If you train in this way, your work with one weapon should actually help your training in another.
Paul

Paul's post reflects my assertion above that training with the stick as if it were a sword need not weaken your stick-handling skills. One (but not the only) point-of-view to consider is that both weapons give you an advantage by letting you dictate range. But if the ability to dictate range gives you an advantange, then why not use the stick/sword in a manner that creates the greatest range, i.e., allowing the arms to extend in front of the body, and using the tip of the weapons for striking and cutting, respectively. This has to improve your timing, by the way, insofar as you learn how not to leave your hands and arms out there as targets. Of course, your ability to dictate range ends as soon as you fail to strike effectively.

The considerations above hold less water for an FMA that uses a shorter, heavier sword. Here you may find an advantage to closing with an opponent and cutting through flesh wth the belly of the blade. (For those of you who watched HBO's Rome this season: the second-to-last episode had a scene [Pulo's fight in the arena against the gladiators] wherein a fighter (Pulo) hits down on his opponent's shield with the butt of his sword, parries his opponent's sword strike with his shield, and cuts through (amputates) the man's forearm with his counter-strike. This technique could have been taken directly from Pekiti Tirsia's Espada y Daga Contrada series.)

But fighting with a stick in this manner clearly doesn't make sense, because one can't cut through an arm with the middle of a stick (one can, however smash the elbow with the tip). So here I think that one needs to learn to differentiate between sword and stick, and modify one's techniques for each. But if you're training with a stick and train a technique one way as if you're using a sword (cutting with the "belly") and then train the same technique as if you're using a stick (striking with the tip) then I don't think you're necessarily confusing the issue - you're just adding an extra dimension to your training.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[arnisador]

I did watch Rome, and I do remember that sequence! I thought that in most of the series they did a good job of using the short Roman stabbing sword in an historically accurate manner. (I recall the episode of Conquest where they explained the strategy in some detail.) Does the Pekiti Tirsia Espada y Daga Contrada series assume the use of a shield, then, or would it be an empty-hand parry at that point?

[lhommedieu]

Substitute daga for shield:

The PTI Espada y Daga Level 1 Contrada #3 that I learned from Tuhon William McGrath assumes at one point that the opponent gives you a high thrust with the daga that you parry outside to inside and then down with the butt of your stick; when he throws a high horizontal with his stick you block with your daga and then smash down on his elbow with your stick.

In the Rome sequence described above Pulo smashes down on the opponents shield with the butt of his sword and therefore (because his opponent cannot hide behind his shield ) provokes his opponent to swing wide with his sword. Pulo parries the opponent's sword with his sheld and cuts down on the inside of his arm with his sword.

In essence they are the same technique.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[JohnJ]

When training, do you consider the stick a stick or sword?A stick is a stick. The only thing it can substitute in terms of edge weapon training is that of a machete or bolo because such tools use more of a hacking motion. The sword utilizes fluid slashing & thrusting motions.


Is there a benefit of one over the other? Both are beneficial. Although I believe sword training offers more in terms of attribute development such as:

-Heightened sense of awareness i.e. during manipulation and in defense
-The ability to develop power within more refined mechanics i.e. less chambering
-Overall fluidity in combinations
-Weapon handling versatility by way of principles


Is it better to stick to one or the other?

If the opportunity to train in both is a natural element/progression of the particular system then it can only be beneficial. However, do not be fooled by a stick art that insists it comes from blade or even has a component of blade since not all FMA systems have true edge components.


If you want to learn both a stick art as well as a blade art, is there a natural order. Should you start with blade techniques first, then transition to stick?


Each system will have a different progression. However, let us first note that there is a distinction between a sword system and a blunted system that may teach machete/bolo applications w/knife methods.


John J

[JohnJ]

Both. I generally consider a stick a sword and train accordingly. This means that "cuts" with the stick are done with the last 3" or so of the weapon and that my body mechanics ensure that I am "cutting" with the edge of the tip of the stick rather than hacking with it.


Why do you limit the utilization to the upper 3”? Is that based on the type of sword or largo play? At medio to corto range in KI, full belly slashes are often finishing moves while hacks can be somewhat transitional.


Wittiks that would generally be done with the flat of a sword are also done with a stick following rules 1-3.

There are 2 ways to perform the witik with the sword. The first with the flat as described and the 2nd making contact with the tip (a.k.a. inverted thrust).


John J

[JohnJ]

Since the targets of a stick and blade different, the body mechanics during their use would also differ (i.e., generating power would be more of a priority with a stick then a blade.).

Yes and no. While mechanics are always associated power…let us not forget the weight of some weapons i.e. heavy bolos and barongs/barungs These type of weapons do not necessarily require overwhelming power because of their weight and with decent mechanics can shatter bone more so than a stick unless of course you are using kamagong.


Additionally, the techniques are not interchangable.

Some are and certain techniques if not done correctly, can affect the overall result.


My concern was if I tried to train both, would the cross training hurt the other's applicaiton?

Absolutely not providing you do not rely only on what the teacher tells you but question when needed. It is your perseverence and diligence that will lead you to progress as well as training methods that will pressure test what is taught.


I have limited time to train as it is, so I'm leaning more toward stick as stick, since I don't think I'm going to encounter many bolos in Atlanta. By doing this, am I hurting my over all training?

Do not limit your options based on this comment. It is like saying, "why should I train FMA...it's not like I will have a stick on me". The bulk of my training comes from KI which IS a sword based system. Although some classical techniques are not as effective when done with a stick, it is not the techniques I am concerned about but rather understanding the principles and strategies that drive the techniques. And they can easily be applied in modern times.

Chances are, I too won't find myself dueling someone with swords but am confident in what I have learned and can easily transfer the necessities in a variety of scenarios, with or without wepaons.

John J

[lhommedieu]

Why do you limit the utilization to the upper 3”? Is that based on the type of sword or largo play?

Yes: See my post, #16, on this thread, in this regard. There appears to be two general preferences with respect to the sword: (1) those which give privilege more towards the tip on the grounds that it helps create range and thus gives the fighter something of a safety net (if he can maintain range) and (2) those which give privilege more towards the middle of the sword on the grounds that more of the blade is involved in the cut. I admit a bias towards #1, and simply deepen that bias by treating the stick in the same manner (speed plus weight plus leverage equals power). I should add that a longer sword must necessarily be heavy enough to cut effectively if one cuts more towards the tip, and admit that cuts might not be as deep as others that utilize more of the belly of the blade. Also - a sword finish where one intends to cut very deeply may well involve a slash that starts further away from the tip.


And one can easily see how a lighter, faster sword lends itself more towards full belly slashes at corto/medeo range. By the same token, very large, heavy swords (the Ba Gua Dao, for example) that cannot be easily swung are carried close to the body; the legs and waist carry the sword and it is literally “walked through” the opponent at close range.

All the above is just to say that it is generally the characteristics of the weapon that dictates the style of the martial art, and my personal take on the matter is that there are no superior styles – just superior martial artists.


There are 2 ways to perform the witik with the sword. The first with the flat as described and the 2nd making contact with the tip (a.k.a. inverted thrust).

In San Miguel Eskrima there is “Semi” that are like witiks insofar as the torque of the body generates a cut in a manner very similar to what I know of Pekiti Tirsia’s witiks. But “Semi” seems more like Western sabre cuts than FMA’s witiks.

What is a witik a.k.a “inverted thrust”? That sounds very interesting.

Best,

Steve

[Christopher Umbs]

In San Miguel Eskrima there is “Semi” that are like witiks insofar as the torque of the body generates a cut in a manner very similar to what I know of Pekiti Tirsia’s witiks. But “Semi” seems more like Western sabre cuts than FMA’s witiks.


Steve,

Is it more like a dueling sabre cut where the cut stays on the side it starts in (I attack the right cheek and make a push cut forwards - staying on the right) or is it like military sabre where the cut pulls through to the other side?

Chris

[JPR]

Greetings All,

I’d like to hear some of your opinions regarding training.
When training, do you consider the stick a stick or sword?
Is there a benefit of one over the other?
Is it better to stick to one or the other?
If you want to learn both a stick art as well as a blade art, is there a natural order. Should you start with blade techniques first, then transition to stick?Thoughts?

Two things seem to not translate well from stick to sword. First is blade edge / flat awareness. Unless you use a flat stick (olisi?), it is very difficult to tell if you are striking with the edge dead on. I had been using a stick for a reasonable amount of time, and then picked up my bolo machete to hack away at small branches (well I was supposed to be clearing out some brush and sort of took the time to practice kali on some defenseless small trees). I was surprised by the number of glancing blows I delivered just due to a lack of edge awareness in my striking.

The second thing is gross versus fine/finer motion. A lot of stick motions are very big in relation to the motion you need for a sword.

Jerry

[JohnJ]

Hey Steve,


Yes: See my post, #16, on this thread, in this regard. There appears to be two general preferences with respect to the sword: (1) those which give privilege more towards the tip on the grounds that it helps create range and thus gives the fighter something of a safety net (if he can maintain range) and (2) those which give privilege more towards the middle of the sword on the grounds that more of the blade is involved in the cut. I admit a bias towards #1, and simply deepen that bias by treating the stick in the same manner (speed plus weight plus leverage equals power). I should add that a longer sword must necessarily be heavy enough to cut effectively if one cuts more towards the tip, and admit that cuts might not be as deep as others that utilize more of the belly of the blade. Also - a sword finish where one intends to cut very deeply may well involve a slash that starts further away from the tip.


I guess I should read through the entire thread more thoroughly. Thanks for further clarifying.


All the above is just to say that it is generally the characteristics of the weapon that dictates the style of the martial art, and my personal take on the matter is that there are no superior styles – just superior martial artists.

I hope my comments were seen as nothing more than personal experiences and observations too. They were not meant to imply superiority of a particular style as I too agree that superiority is based on the individual.


What is a witik a.k.a “inverted thrust”? That sounds very interesting.

I should have clarified that the position of an inverted thrust is the end result of the witik. I refer to the witik as a short retracted strike done in an arcing motion wherein the strike is made in palm-up position. An example of setting up a witik would be to utilize the principle (not technique) of doble carrera which means double race. When facing an opponent who uses an abierta or centerline on-guard, you would bait him by slashing/striking in a line parallel to the inside of his weapon hand. As the opponent commits to parry, you follow the motion through and under his guard to come around the back side into a witik. Adjustments to the level dictate the target as either a thrust to the torso or eyes.

Hi Jerry,


Unless you use a flat stick (olisi?), it is very difficult to tell if you are striking with the edge dead on

I concur. It is a common problem when substituting the sword with a stick. A perfect example is when performing redonda with two swords. Quite often a beginner and even experienced practitioners will "backhand" the second strike rather than emphasize knuckles forward position. In an effort to correct this, I will tell the student to exaggerate his movement by turning his shoulder inward so that the knuckles are aligned with it. It is a nice way to force the proper manipulation.

John J
www.swacom.com

[lhommedieu]

Steve,

Is it more like a dueling sabre cut where the cut stays on the side it starts in (I attack the right cheek and make a push cut forwards - staying on the right) or is it like military sabre where the cut pulls through to the other side?Chris

More like a military sabre - a heavier weapon that tends to pull through and down, or away on the cut. Cuts are also made predominantly with the shoulder and elbow - not with the wrist - in arcs and spirals.

Best,

Steve

[lhommedieu]

I hope my comments were seen as nothing more than personal experiences and observations too. They were not meant to imply superiority of a particular style as I too agree that superiority is based on the individual.

John,

Of course. It's nice to find a place to read substantive comments about the FMA's - instead of the usual bickering over politics, lineage, etc.

Best,

Steve

[Roger Agbulos]

Both. I generally consider a stick a sword and train accordingly. This means that "cuts" with the stick are done with the last 3" or so of the weapon and that my body mechanics ensure that I am "cutting" with the edge of the tip of the stick rather than hacking with it.

BUT I find that one can generally use a stick "as a stick" even if this training methodology is followed if you make sure that

(1) Bony areas are targetted
(2) The tip of stick moves quickly on and off-target (there is no point in pulling the "edge" of a stick through a fleshy target (if you miss a bony one) as there is no real edge
(3) The end of the stick is employed (greatest leverage)

Steve Lamade

Hello all! Steve's approach is very similar to our training methodology.

The stick or impact weapon's movements must have power to be effective. However, to employ the strict and refined movements of the blade without compromising power is the ultimate goal.

The drills are highly technical and will therefore require sometime to master. But once you get the flow going, the stirkes are non-telegraphic, short and deadly, not to mention gracefull when executed in freestyle form.

Just my 2 cents. Good topic Winston.

Take care guys...

Roger Agbulos
ASTIG COMBATIVES
LAMECO ESKRIMA


Roger Agbulos

[WT_ATL]

But once you get the flow going, the stirkes are non-telegraphic, short and deadly, not to mention gracefull when executed in freestyle form.



I had the pleasure of seeing first hand Roger in action at the 2005 WFMAA Expo and 2005 Tipunan Sa Disney Land this past August in Anaheim Ca , his description above is right on the money. Everyone was pretty much blown away at the amount of speed and power he was able to generate in such short strokes.

My only question Rog, is when are you going to make it down to the ATL?


--Winston

[Bob Hubbard]

I tend to prefer to think of the stick as a short sword when training, depending on what my target is. If I'm aiming at a bony part, I think "stick", where as when I'm aiming at a fleshy part, or slashing, I think "sword".

[kabaroan]

In Kabaroan, a majority of our training is with sticks with the knowledge that some of the techniques apply to the sword. For example with a stick it is not difficult to switch from sencilla (single stick, single hand) to bambolia (single stick, two hand as in a bar arm or port arm grip) say transitioning from a slash to a butt or gore. Using a sword, one would not do that...you could easily cut of your your fingers!

Still, we are taught to respect the stick as it does represent the sword, with the edge aligned with the users knuckles.

[HANGAWAY]

I train as both stick and blade. My thought being I may have a stick or a blade. In my area ( South Louisiana ) at this time of the year you would be surprised how many people have cane knives or machetes. Or I may be faced against a blade. Training to use a stick or blade has already been covered however what about going against a blade or a stick. There are some major differences. Though I don't want to take a hit with a stick it is something I may get away with however against a blade? When you start training against a blade you will certainly change your perspective about grabbing the weapon rather than the weapon hand or wrapping your arm around the blade. Against a stick sure grab the stick but what happens "IF" it turns out to be a blade? Case in point: Around 15-16 years ago I was in New Orleans for the Mardis Gras. During one of the pradeas a large group of people suddenly started shouting, screaming and scurring off to one side of me. A person in custume was beating another person with what appeared to be a stick covered with cloth and tassels. An alert police officer immediatly grabbed the "stick" only to learn it was a machete. Officer had two fingers severed from his right hand. There are many things you can get away with against a stick however if it is a blade what kind of damage will you incur?
I don't believe the art will signify how to train, You decide and train accordingly.
What are you training for? The art, defense, competition, combat, or whatever, you must then train based upon that reality and just because you have trained for one doesn't mean you will be good in the other.

Danny
From my experience on spparring with simulated weapon its best to go for the weapon hand or the handle if you simulate bladed weapon. If you simulate an impact weapon its usually best to clip it with your arms instead of hand there more power in pulling it and disarming it.
In urban situation its usually machetes,pipe,baseball bat, bottles, iron bars you wil face. Stick is only use to simulate those weapon to minimize the damage when training.

[Silence_sucks]

When training with a stick i think of it as a stick, but i am still training the sword. How? because the basic movments apply in both, ignoring subtle differences in targeting, for example a heaven six with the stick is still a heaven six with the sword, by training i have attained the ambidexterity and the muscle memory required to perform it and therefore i have trained for both stick and sword. Limiting your techiques or fighting concepts to only stick or only sword while weilding a stick would just harm your overall learing, the time to adjust is when you actually pick up a blade or a blade trainer that is when you make adjustments in targeting, switch to 'quick eject' or non grab thumb control disarms, stop doing abanicos and twist your hand on blade to blade contact to avoid notching. I say when the sticks in your hand train it all.