Maryland Open?

[ryangruhn]

Hey All,
Does anyone know the status of the Maryland Open for this year? I assume it is still a go but have heard nothing. The following page is all that I have found from last year:

http://mdopen2005.tripod.com/


Gruhn

[JohnJ]

Here is an update I received via e-mail:

APRIL 9, 2006
2nd Grand National Kali Labanan
Filipino Stick Fighting Tournament
For the 2nd time the REAL KALI Sports Competition presents a refine works of art under the hands of trained Kali warriors whose intense training was based on the real indigenous technology in full contact stick fighting to include the Filipino knife culture of close quarte combat.
This event will establish a landmark of succeeding events that leads to the professionalism of the art for sports competition and combat sports.
Many sports events in the future will present a spectators that will inspire the people to see the real world of stick fighting done in the most artistic refine presentation.
It has been observed that Stick Fighting Full Contact is an expectator's sports with full expression of skill done in a manner of reality to be real and it happens in the past, so as it is today.


The event is open to all styles of Filipino Martial Art.

Tournament Policy and Regulations:

A. All competitors must be registered at the gate with the presentation of proof of training.

B. All competitors must submit for physician checking and must submit insurance policy.

C. All competitors must submit to security check. NO blades or weapons other than rattan sticks and rubber knives or aluminum knives.

D. All competitors should act as gentlemen before and during the tournament.

E. All competitors are restricted to alcoholic drinks inside the tournament arena.

F. All competitors should abide to restrictions of any forms of drugs while inside the tournament arena.

G. All competitors must sign the waiver before entering in the tournament.

H. All competitors are required to pay the required cost of entry.

Who are qualified to be competitors? Person in good health and had obtained sufficient training at least two years and more.

Ground Rules: 10-point system:
A. Weapons (optional)


1. Hard Padded Rattan Sticks

2. Unpadded Rattan Sticks
B. Head Gear + light armor and gloves


TIME: Three (3) 1-minute round

Legal target areas:

1. Center line from the top to the groin

2. All right sides of the body down to the toes

3. All left sides of the body down to the toes
Counted points are made by heavy Slash with a follow-up of multiple attacks.
Counted points for power thrust with a follow-up of multiple thrusts.
Counted points for close quarter butting attack to the head or arm or body. Counted points to the hands and arms if the competitor stops with disabled arms or hands and discontinue to fight.
Counted points if weapons is drop or lost along the series of attacks: Technical knockout.
Counted points if weapons are detach not by grabbing the stick but after hitting of the hand followed by disengaging the sticks or knife.
Counted points if clinching is executed during the close quarter contact and one is brought to the ground and lock by the stick and surrender. If no surrender, no points.
Counted points for solid kick with a knock out or surrender of the competitor.
Counted points if hit in the legs and one rifuse to continue.
Counted points for one solid blow that stops the competitor.
Counted points for all forms of locks: arm locks on standing position or leg locks forund ground takedown.


Deductions of point / Removal from the Arena:
A. Stick or knife is thrown to the competitor.
B. Refuse to stop if the referee command to stop after the competitor surrenders (5) point deduction.
C. Shouting at the referre or uttering curses inside the arena: Removal from the Arena
D. Ungentleman behavior to create confrontation.
E. Interference by any member or friends of the competitor: Removal from the Arena.
F. Refuse to wear proper uniform as prescribed by the Tournament Committee.
Three man Judges will be coming from Philippine Embassy, Washington, DC. Referees will be designated by the Tournament Committee.


CATEGORIES:

A. Light weight division: 120 lbs to 159 lbs.

B. Middle weight division: 160 lbs to 180 lbs.

C. Heavy weight Division: 181 lbs to 250lbs.
The Tournament Committee designates three rings for each division: (9 Judges and 3 Referees)


WINNERS:

A. Each division winner will be declared Champion with a Champion trophy and a Medallion.
B. A second runner up will be declared with co-champion trophy.
C. A third runner up will be declared with a third place winner trophy.
ALL competitors will receive a Certificate of Recognition from KALI WORLD COUNCIL.
After the tournament, everyone is invited to join the ceremony for the awarding, declaration of the awardees for the KALI HALL of FAME and special promotions for the Instructors scheduled for higher ranks. Night of the Warriors.
The KALI WORLD COUNCIL, USA, INC. TOURNAMENT COMMITTEE
Chairman: Apolo Ladra
Assisted by: Supreme GrandMaster Leo T. Gaje, Jr. Guro Dan Inosanto Guro Jun DeLeon

[ryangruhn]

=)

[JohnJ]

Just got off the phone with Apolo.

It appears there will only be 2 divisions... padded or live stick. The events will be WEAPON ONLY events to showcase weapon skills. I was very happy to hear this and look forward to seeing the art!

I was also asked to officiate again and as before I will encourage fighters to utilize combat application and good technique. I want to see good control of range, footwork, evasivness, power, combinations and defense.

Tuhon Gaje and Guro will be overseeing the event!

Best of luck to all who play.

JohnJ

[The Boss]

Any word on how many people will be at the event?

[WT_ATL]

Any word on how many people will be at the event?

I spoke to Apolo today, he's expecting at least up to 5 to 6 hundred participants. There are already 400 pre-registered. Last year he had about 800 participants. This is for the entire tournament, including the open martial arts divisions.

SMAK-Stiks will be the official equipment for his padded division. Additionally, we ar still considering actually going to the event as official sponsors.

Thanks,

Winston.

[The Boss]

How many FMAers does he have for the event?

[WT_ATL]

How many FMAers does he have for the event?

I'm not sure. Based on what I've heard, the hope is that last years event will generate much more interest in the FMA divisions. Depending on how the tournament is structured, there is a potential of having a good turn out for the FMA events.

For example, at the Queens City Laban Laro, Tim Hartman had it set up that there was one price for all the events. Additionally, he supplied all the equipment, SMAK-Stiks and Protective Gear. Lastly, the tournanament was broken down into different divisions based on skill level, age, and sometimes gender. This made it much more accessible for all the competitors. Consequently, I would guess that 95% of all the competitors participated in the Stick Sparring.

--Winston.

[ryangruhn]

Anyone from the board plan on going?

Gruhn

[ryangruhn]

Just got off the phone with Apolo.

It appears there will only be 2 divisions... padded or live stick. The events will be WEAPON ONLY events to showcase weapon skills.

JohnJ

Weapon Only???:

Counted points are made by heavy Slash with a follow-up of multiple attacks.
Counted points for power thrust with a follow-up of multiple thrusts.
Counted points for close quarter butting attack to the head or arm or body. Counted points to the hands and arms if the competitor stops with disabled arms or hands and discontinue to fight.
Counted points if weapons is drop or lost along the series of attacks: Technical knockout.
Counted points if weapons are detach not by grabbing the stick but after hitting of the hand followed by disengaging the sticks or knife.
Counted points if clinching is executed during the close quarter contact and one is brought to the ground and lock by the stick and surrender. If no surrender, no points.
Counted points for solid kick with a knock out or surrender of the competitor.
Counted points if hit in the legs and one rifuse to continue.
Counted points for one solid blow that stops the competitor.
Counted points for all forms of locks: arm locks on standing position or leg locks forund ground takedown.


I'm confused.

Gruhn

[DAMAG-INC]

I hope to read about how the event turned out. I'd love to see some video!

[ryangruhn]

I wish I had some. I am at a loss for words on the situation and will be posting back when I can figure out how to respond without sounding negitive.

Respectfully,

Gruhn

[ryangruhn]

Please allow me to review my experience with the MD Open 2006 “Full Contact Live Stickfighting Tournament” from today. You can then make of it what you will.

Please let me start off by saying last year was a blast. There were some GREAT live stick fights and I was more then happy to be a part of the event; having Leo Gaje & Guro Dan as judges and Sled Dog as a ref was really cool. Last year there were no “rules” per se as everyone wore light armor (I wore a fencing mask and street hockey gloves). SD allowed us to clench, take down, grapple, punch, kick, knee, elbow; the whole nine yards. To quote GT Gaje “You can kick, punch elbow, knee, spit head butt, grapple . . . . .” In all I could not ask for a better event within driving distance. This year however was different.

I received an email for 2006 stating the EXACT rules as last year so I assumed everything would remain the same. The addition of Gaje and Inosanto was a bonus as well (they unfortunately did not come for some scheduling reason). I was promised about a month out when I called the man in charge of this tournament that they would have a fighter for me in my weight range to fight, as they marketed it “Full Contact Stick Fighting.” This made me extremely happy because as you all know in the MMA/NHB world it can be hard to secure a fight. On several accounts I called, emailed and Instant Messaged and confirmed with him that there would be someone for me to fight. Our group came from State College, PA (about a four hour drive), this wasn’t just a short skip to the next town over. We actually left State College at 3AM to get there in time to weigh in at 7:30. When I got there I again asked “I still have someone to fight right?” directly to the man in charge. He insisted that he would have a person for me to fight and if he didn’t he would get one of his kids to fight me. Everything was great except for the fact that they charged my corner men $50 a pop just to get in and be able to corner me (this struck me as odd, now $150 deep into this thing plus gas). When we were then getting closer to go time I approached the registration personnel and asked them who I would be fighting. They proceeded to tell me that all of the registered “stickfighters” except for me were only fighting “soft stick.” At this point I was a little worried. I then approached the fighters and asked each and every one of them if they were willing to fight me with rattan stick and I got excuses from “I don’t have insurance” to “I have to work on Monday.” I apologize for the language but my opinion has always been: “You stick fight, but at the end of the day you will still have to wipe your butt. If the right hand is broken you use the left hand to wipe.” In other words there should not be any excuses. I then resorted back to the man in charge and he tried to convince one of his fighters to fight me (which was nice on his part) but the kid declined. I was not sure to make of his promises up to that point. We were lucky enough to get a refund for the day which turned into a hassle itself and spent some time at the Aquarium. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? I just have a hard time understanding how something like this could happen. As I said at the beginning; make this what you will. I don’t want to impose my thoughts on the subject because at the time I don’t think I would be able to in a positive manor. Did I do something wrong? I don’t know, I’m just befuddled at the whole ordeal.

Thoughts?

Gruhn

[JohnJ]

Hey Ryan,

I am very sorry to hear of your ordeal especially after taking the drive. Apolo contacted me a few days prior to the event to ask if I would still be officiating in which I replied possibly depending on my weekend schedule. Oddly enough he then asked me if I would fight the live stick event. Knowing that you were probably one of only a handful of “live stick” players I humorously replied, is it for Ryan Gruhn from PA? I then asked why he or his brother could not fight and was told because it was their event. I then proceeded to ask if SD (a student) would do it since he expressed a strong interest to play me “live stick” at an event last year and was told that he would not. I found it a bit hard to comprehend why an instructor of one school regardless if he was hosting would ask another instructor from a different school to fight a participant. I have no worries of playing anyone as the experience is essential BUT I will not do it for someone else. Needless to say, unforeseen circumstances did not allow me either way to attend.

There should have been at least 1 guy fighting. His name is James Lafond, author of “Logic of Steel” on Paladin-Press. He runs ModernAgonistics.Com a sort of DBMA / SCA group in Baltimore. We have been exchanging dialogue about a sparring session. I guess he was a no show??? How many total stick-fighters were there?

As far as a cornering fee, that is unjustified. I have never heard of it and would not have paid it regardless of cost. Now, back to your predicament… I would tell Apolo exactly how you feel and the poor handling of this particular event. Maybe, he will let you fight for free :biggrinbo next time?

Regarding a friendly exchange, aside from me I have 2 students that play live and will gladly welcome you to play either here or a halfway point. I have a buddy in Philly that has access to a gym. Maybe we can schedule something for this summer. Feel free to contact me anytime.

John J
www.swacom.com

[ryangruhn]

John,
Thank you for your response. I only have a minute so I will spend some more time on a response later tonight. In regards to James he too was one of the gentleman that was not interested in fighting me, he only wanted to do stick fencing for a lack of better words; I wanted to fight. Nonetheless seemed to be a pretty cool guy. I think the gatherings are more my scene after this weekends performance of unprofessionalisim and bad business. Apolo will not see me or anyone else from our group for that matter at his event ever again. Is James a part of this board?

Gruhn

[JohnJ]

Ryan,


In regards to James he too was one of the gentleman that was not interested in fighting me, he only wanted to do stick fencing for a lack of better words; I wanted to fight.

I only met James once and that was at Apolo's Kali Labanan 2005. Not interested in fighting you OR under the tourney rules??? I am not sure what you mean about stick fencing? Can you clarify? The FMA is a weapon based system first and foremost. Therefore, weapons are primary. The DBMA format is good but can also be counter productive in terms of developing your weapons skill.

I like your enthusiasm, "I wanted to fight" :EvilGrin: !!! I too enjoy the contact. However, make certain it is not taken out of context and refers solely to competition & testing. Someone may take it the wrong way.


I think the gatherings are more my scene...

Yeah, it's unfortunate cause these type of unarmored, live stick events are a rarity.

Is James a part of this board?
[/quote]

I don't think so.

Like I said, if you are simply looking for more people to play...let me know and we will set up something. I also know David Wink's PTK group in Frederick, MD. David is Top Dog's peer in PTK.

Look forward to chattin'.

JohnJ

[ryangruhn]

I am not sure what you mean about stick fencing? Can you clarify?

Only being able to strike with the stick. While yes the FMA’s are a weapon based art I am confident in saying that by no means is it restricted to just weapon. In fact, I think the FMA’s are more diverse than many arts out there. This was exactly what GT Gaje was getting at last year.


I like your enthusiasm, "I wanted to fight" !!! I too enjoy the contact. However, make certain it is not taken out of context and refers solely to competition & testing. Someone may take it the wrong way.

I agree. I was under the impression that the fights would be the same as last year. Everyone there was just looking for a sparring session. You were there last year and can attest that those fights were the closest to DB gatherings that a stick event can get. It’s sad that they would market it this way then change the rules like that. In fact, people showed up to see the “FULL CONTACT” stick fights and were ticked to learn that it was not going to happen.

I guess my next question to everyone is if you believe it was ethically wrong for the promoter to pull me along like he did and lead me to believe I had a fight. Up to the last minute he was still saying “I’ll get you a fight” and he knew fully what I was looking for. When he could not produce one I think it would have only been professional for him to personally apologize. Was it right for us to pay to drive down there only to turn around and go right back? Are we entitled to travel compensation? I dunno, I hate to turn this into a financial situation but I feel a little violated. Anywho . . . .


Gruhn

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Ryan-

How many people actually came to stick fight at the event?

[ryangruhn]

I would guess two hundred spectators (mostly moms who came to watch their children) and there were five soft stick fighters. I believe there was only one rattan stick match and as I said the rules were only hitting with the stick.

Gruhn

[JohnJ]

While yes the FMA’s are a weapon based art I am confident in saying that by no means is it restricted to just weapon. In fact, I think the FMA’s are more diverse than many arts out there.

I concur. It is not restricted. However, when people claim they do stickfighting, spectators expect to see stickfighting. Not a sloppy brawl into a ground and pound game. I am just as confident to say that a nicely timed strike to someone's head or limb can end it rather quickly. Some of the best examples seen in early DBMA material.


This was exactly what GT Gaje was getting at last year

Actually, I believe it was Tuhon that decided this year should showcase more of the art...AND that means weapon skill! My question to you is, "are YOU confident enough to fight stick only"???? Don't take this the wrong way but rather than decline a match cause someone wants weapons only, accept it with the conditions that they also fight you with E-H and grappling included. This could have been a solution to the dilemna, had both parties agreed.

Now, regarding the improper handling of the event prior and throughout, it was wrong. And there should have been even a lilttle gesture to compensate for the trouble.

Just my thoughts...

[ryangruhn]

I concur. It is not restricted. However, when people claim they do stickfighting, spectators expect to see stickfighting. Not a sloppy brawl into a ground and pound game. I am just as confident to say that a nicely timed strike to someone's head or limb can end it rather quickly. Some of the best examples seen in early DBMA material.

Exactly, they are looking for a clean technical stick brawl =) I get what you are saying.:)




"are YOU confident enough to fight stick only"????

Yes, in fact our school does this on a weekly basis which is exatly my problem. I am not going to drive four hours there and back and pay $150.00 just to do somthing I do every week anyways. I would rather be able to present all my skills in one event as was done last year.

Thanks for the thoughts,

Gruhn

[Datu Tim Hartman]

and there were five soft stick fighters. I believe there was only one rattan stick match and as I said the rules were only hitting with the stick.

Gruhn
I'm surpised at such a low number. The Ladra's sp. have brought thier team to both Master Galang's and PG Hufana's each time numbering around 14 players.

[ryangruhn]

Here is a review of the event from James:

"Maryland Open Kali Report
April 9th 2006: James LaFond’s Impressions of the Event

Prelude
Since early 2005 Master Apolo Ladra has been inviting Modern Agonistics fighters to his Kali World Council sanctioned events. Most of our people have been suspicious of getting involved with anything run by a commercial karate school. So, until Apolo and I entered into a formal dialog in September 2005 MA fighters had not attended his events.

Apolo’s KWC Fall Event
On the first Sunday of November 2005 I attended Apolo’s kali event at his school as a spectator. The affair was witnessed by 50 spectators who paid $5 a head and was fought by 9 of Bobby Ladra’s home team, 2 of John’s FMA practitioners from Columbia, and 1 western style fighter from a Northern Virginia school called Universal Martial Arts.
The tournament was honorably conducted and well officiated under reasonable rules. I was particularly pleased with their stick & dagger format, which is something that MA and DBMA have had trouble doing well. However, I was disappointed that there were no stick fights. All the bouts were with safety wands –which are called soft sticks, but are, in fact, plastic tubes covered in synthetic padding and a nylon fabric sleeve. After seeing and enjoyed this event as a noncombatant, it looked too much like a pillow fight for me to engage in, so I decided that I would not fight soft “stick” in the future.
After the event I spoke with Apolo about live stick events and he assured me that KWC events would all be governed by the rules I had witnessed with the wands; a purely weapon-based combat with the empty hand used for defense and checking only, and no kicks, grappling, etc. permitted.

Preparations
Armed with this information I made Apolo’s pitch for the 2006 MD Open to most of our fighters. All agreed that they had no interest in the soft “stick” and roughly half of our people –particularly David and Damien—expressed suspicions that their MMA stick style would not convert well to pure weapon scoring and that I –being our best pure weapon fighter and worst MMA fighter-- should be our natural participatory ambassador to the KWC live stick event.
Aware that I was representing a group of fighters, many of whom were better than myself, I decided to pay for stick fighting lessons from Aaron, attended Gabriel’s escrima seminar, sparred exclusively under KWC rules with Robert, Charles & Brett, and lost weight so I would qualify for all three weight classes. Apolo agreed by phone that if I wanted to do double stick and stick & dagger we could do that also.

Overall Impressions of The April 9th Event
Amid the disorganization and chaos of the actual event [I haven’t been to many karate tournaments] I found the officials to be honorable and polite and the assembled stick fighters to be friendly and sportsmanlike in character. As I had paid to fight in all three weight classes I was disappointed that so few fighters showed up, and that there would not only be no weight classes, but if Rico, John and I didn’t agree to fight soft stick, there would not be enough fighters to have a tournament at all!

The Fighters
Rich, Anthony, and his even better built brother whose name escapes me –Adam or Alan I think, represented Bobby Ladra’s soft stick team. John, an MMA guy [with no stick experience or gear] from Virginia, Rico [Aaron’s monstrous sparring partner], Ryan [a Dog Brothers rep.], and myself showed for live stick. I was the only live stick fighter who came with the knowledge that this was not going to be MMA stick! Ryan didn’t want to point fight and left; John decided he’d hang with Rico and me, and we decided that since Bobby’s boys were so nice, that we would give the padded stick a try before Rico slaughtered me with the live stick. We advised John not to do live stick as he had no experience.

The Psychotic Pillow Fight
The fight reviews below are based on my experience and 3 viewings of Dominick’s video.
The pairings were done down the line by size between Bobby’s team and us outsiders. The fights were scored like boxing bouts, and 2nd, 3rd and 4th round fighters were matched according to previous scores. [This assures a lot of fighting.] Apolo let us decide on the number and length of rounds. We agreed on a single 2-minute round.
I was matched with Anthony for the first bout. The wand felt heavy in my hand [from mass and club-like balance not from weight] and had a good grip. When Anthony entered I hit him with a kill shot to the ear, he hit me with 3 power shots [once in my broken hand and once between my un-cupped balls] and I felt nothing! Those wands sound painful but inflict a ZERO on the 1-10 medical pain scale. That is when I realized that defense would be a complete waste of time. Although most people don’t realize it, most defense in weapon fighting is based on the opponent’s fear of the weapon, and these things were less dangerous than a loaded Trojan. When I tried to stop Anthony with a stab as he charged in the wand simply bent like one of those balloon swords that my brother and I got from a carnival clown when we were kids. Because of my new hair cut the cloth cap I put on under my helmet slid down over my eyes. I fought the last 30 seconds almost completely blind, and it did not negatively affect my performance. I could see Anthony’s feet as he ran to me and I knew he would stick around for a 3-beat, so I responded in kind. I could not even imagine fighting live stick while blind and not suffering for it. Anthony and I basically killed each other 10 times. Since he was more aggressive and far better looking he got the win.
Rico was paired with Anthony’s brother. Rico was the only fighter that attempted any defense and he did well, administering a one-sided beating to the larger brother. [It actually looked almost even to me at ringside. But on the video shot from the opposite angle Rico was really killing him. Unfortunately the knowledgeable judges were on my side of the ring and the others had the camera angle. The judges were wowed by the smaller fighter’s frantic activity and end-of-round flurry and awarded him the win. I tried to explain to Rico that the only defensive tactics that this kind of judging rewards is fast foot work –which sucked for him because he’s built like an NFL linebacker, not a lightweight boxer. Rico was pissed. That’s when we agreed to have a clean decisive live-stick fight that would lead the judges to a correct decision.
This is where the uneven nature of the officiating came into play. Master V. and Gabriel were very knowledgeable but the other judges were people who had not been in real stick fights. In fact, it was at this point that Master V. pointed out to the junior judges that they should give more credit for defense and that their jobs would be much easier with the live stick. However, nothing would overcome the comic momentum of the wand. The wands are so much fun to fight with and so painless we just decided to have a good time.
In the 3rd bout John put up a good fight against Rich but, after showing the only traditional style of the day, was simply overwhelmed on points.
The next bout on the video is Rich and myself. Since I was lighter and faster I just bounced around on the outside, did some showy jumps and hit him a whole lot with no attempt at defense. He lost his stick twice –not because, as the judges thought, of a strike-disarm, but simply from having to grip the furiously vibrating thing for two minutes while hitting as hard and often as possible. The judges gave me a rematch with Anthony for doing my Japanese Comic-Hero imitation, and I promptly forfeited to him to save my arm for the live stick.
Rico totally beat the piss out of John and Rich and some how only got third place. The very athletic brothers from Bobby’s team got 1st and 2nd place.
After Rico gassed back up we decided that I would not hit his unprotected knees and that he would not hit my broken left hand. We agreed on a 1 minute round, with possibly a 2nd or 3rd depending on how it went. We fought with his half-inch rattan WEKAF whip-sticks which sting like hell but don’t break good bones easily.
After our referee Johnny Vee started the bout I realized that Rico was so wide it was going to be hard to step around him. I managed to circle clean once but when I got center ring he hit my hand lightly and gave me a short powerful slash to the shoulder. I stepped out after a pretty wicked exchange and Sifu Vee reset us center ring. I circled to the outside and he followed, walking into a diagonal jaw slash and then punishing me with shoulder slashes and following me and beating me to the ground with rib and thigh shots at about 3o seconds.
Rico and Johnny asked if I wanted to continue and I responded that I wanted to fight long enough to hit Rico with Aaron’s favorite lateral forehand to the ear. When Sifu Vee restarted us Rico stalked in and I hit him with the kill shot to the ear and back peddled like hell while he staggered me with slashes to the wrist, arm, ribs and left thigh. [The strokes to the thigh were courtesy hits to avoid mangling my injured left hand.] As I dropped to my knees from the leg shots Rico whipped the right side of my neck through the leather spinal guard with a diagonal backhand and I rolled over, recovered, and was not permitted to continue by Johnny Vee [who I think was wincing as much as me] either because the round went the distance or he didn’t see the point of me getting beat for another 5 seconds.

Aftermath
Rico put 14 deep bruises and 1 cut on me in only about 55 seconds. It was so crazy partially because we had both spent five or ten minutes unlearning our stick defense with the “boffer” wands. I think, after reviewing the tape, that Rico scored three kills and I two. Also, Rico and Aaron specialize in brutalizing WEKAF fighters through those quilted fighting coats, because the WEKAF helmet is pretty good and hits to it impose no pain. When you fight these guys in a sleeveless shirt expect to feel like an Easter ham at dinner time.
Rico was a real gentleman and brought me my 2nd place trophy. The people from the near-bye rings were kind of awestruck by the violence. Johnny Vee brought me to his Chinese medicine teacher, Hsi [John] Lee, who doctored me up and gave me a free bottle of ointment. It was a good day. But there was no kali tournament, only a grisly but honorable exhibition bout between Rico and I. I think we have found all of the freestyle live-stick fighters in Maryland. If we want Apolo to have a live stick event so we can fight in it then it looks like we will have to make it happen.

Impressions of KWC Live-Stick
Master V., Sifu Gabriel, Sifu Johnny Vee and the other officials respected Rico and I enough to let us fight with the sticks we wanted, as long as we wanted, as many rounds as we wanted. [There were no live sticks provided by the promoter for the kali event. This strikes me as odd.] These are people that I like and respect and I am convinced that we can work with them in 2007 to bring a real high impact, honorable, brutal, safe, and news-worthy live-stick event to the next Maryland Open. Apolo was even considering letting Ryan and me fight a Dog Brothers style bout. I declined Ryan’s challenge on the grounds that I had a broken hand, was smaller, older, hadn’t trained MMA stick for months, and that I would thus be guilty of unfavorably representing Modern Agonistics fighters in Maryland. If Apolo was even thinking about letting something like that go down at a karate tournament in a Baltimore City owned facility, than he is a promoter we can work with.

Impressions of the Padded “Sticks”?
On the positive side foam wands offer cardio, application of power combinations against a moving target, excellent grip conditioning, and a lot of fun. I think they are excellent for mixing it up with women and children and for use with a dagger in stick and dagger, to counter the fact that stick and dagger with live stick is usually a joke because no one fears the dagger.
For extensive sparring and preparatory competition I think the wand is a menace to the true arts of weaponry and a danger to fighters who switch between padded “stick” and live. I only support the use of the wand in competition as the stick paired with a wooden or hard plastic dagger. The wand is to the stick what the foil is to the epee and the glove is to the bare fist –a training tool. But, unlike the glove and foil [People have been killed with foils and have been killed boxing in every year of the 20th and 21st centuries] its harmless forensic profile, if over-used in training or used in competition, will warp a fighter’s form until he lacks the versatility necessary for making the most of his potential when facing the raw natural experience of combat. In soft stick at the 2006 open Rico and I easily scored clean head shots at will and spinal slashes [which I’ve never scored in over 475 live stick fights] to those fighters who actually placed above us in the competition.
The padded stick belongs primarily in the recreation and theatrical area of martial arts."

Later!

Gruhn

[WT_ATL]

This is a very interesting review. Before I respond, let me first state that my comments are not to persuade or imply, but rather to put out some food for thought.

This review suggest that sparring with padded sticks is analogous to pillow fighting. I guess if the competitors are allowed to wear helmets and other protective gear such as gloves or knee padds, I can understand how one could come to this conclusion. In fact, if the intent of the sparring is to swing for the fences in order to inflict as much pain as possible, then using padded sticks along with padded equipment is definitely not to correct format. However if this is the realism that is being sought, then I wonder if the following format would suffice.

Sparring with padded sticks wearing nothing but protective eye goggles (Let's face it, hitting someone in the eyes with even a feather duster could cause some damage). I actually have clients who spar like this during their training sessions. They tell me that getting hit across the mouth, ears, cheeks, in general anywhere on the face will cause some major pain. Others tell me that getting hit across the knuckles or the knee also has the same affect. Although the imapct is less than getting hit with a live stick, you will definitely respect the hit. Especially if it's adminidtered by someone who is trained well, I can thik of a few individuals active on this forum that fit the bill. You know who you are :sword2:

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the reason people spar with padded sticks is to be able to train at 100% speed and intensity and still show up for work the next day. After all, what good is training if you spend 6 out of the 7 days healing, if you're lucky.

Another reason why people like to spar with padded sticks is because it allows them to use far less protective gear. This provides much more mobility and speed. Like boxing, padd the weapons not the body.

Again, my response is not about padded sticks vs live sticks, but rather to suggest keeping an open mind to different methods of training and to not discount the merits of these other training methods.

--Winston.

[ryangruhn]

Winston brings up some good points. As he says I too consider using soft sticks "sparring." Here is a list that I go by when I am thinking of fighting vs. sparring:

Full Contact – 100% of what you have in you.

Real Contact – keeping the contact as real as possible, limiting the rules and pads.

Sparring – an egoless game to better yourself and your partner. This usually contains some way of keeping track of “who is winning” and we are not meaning to intentionally hurt our partner, this is usually aided by pads.

Fighting – All out destruction and domination of your opponent.



When we combined these we get the following:

Full Contact Sparring – Giving 100% of what you have while still maintaining safety by wearing pads. (A MMA fighter might train this way before a fight, using only gloves and shin pads)

Real Contact Sparring – minimizing the pads but still keeping the “game” egoless. This is a very hard combination because it is easy to move over into the realm of fighting. (Dog Brothers practitioners may train this way before a gathering using only what is needed to fight – fencing mask & street hockey gloves)

Full Contact Fighting – All out destruction and domination of your opponent while still having the option to wear pads. (UFC, K1)

Real Contact Fighting – minimizing the pads and going for all out destruction and domination of your opponent. (Dog Brothers gatherings – they usually only wear a fencing mask which does not offer very much protection and at some points batting gloves which offer no protection. The Sayoc group has held their version of gatherings where they only wear a cup and mouth piece. This is the closest thing to Real Contact Fighting that I know of. Obviously other examples are bare knuckle Muay Thai, street fighting and NHB matches with no gloves.)



I am sure you can understand the misunderstanding one would have when reading "Full Contact Stick Fighting" as the head line for this event. "Full Contact Soft Stick Sparring" would have been more reasonable. In the case that they went without any protection such as last year's soft stick event they could have called it "Real Contact Soft Stick Sparring."

Later!

Gruhn

[JohnJ]

"It's not the conditions i which you play...it's how you engage. - Keep It Combat" by John G. Jacobo

This has been my saying for several years now. And my students and I adhere to it. It doesn't matter what venue you play in and winning at all costs (good conditioning with POOR techniques) does not mean much. Whether WEKAF, DBMA, padded, unarmored Largo Mano etc. It is the responsibility of each player to fight realistically. This means, effective blocking, counterstriking, footwork, power, combinations, set-ups, evasive movement etc. And even acknowledging a good hit.

For many years, I have heard so much criticism from players of different realms. And my belief has always been to experience all formats of sparring for there will always be good and bad things that come out of it. A player should never allow the format to dictate how he fights. He should approach it with a sense of realism and utilize proper attributes.


Sparring with padded sticks wearing nothing but protective eye goggles (Let's face it, hitting someone in the eyes with even a feather duster could cause some damage). I actually have clients who spar like this during their training sessions. They tell me that getting hit across the mouth, ears, cheeks, in general anywhere on the face will cause some major pain. Others tell me that getting hit across the knuckles or the knee also has the same affect.

If anyone is quick to comment that training sticks such as Smakstiks, Actionsflex etc. is like pillowfighting, I suggest trying the above. I think you will quickly change your view after being hit by someone who knows how to put intent behind their strike and rips your lip wide open.

JohnJ

[ryangruhn]

John,
For me it was a matter of being able to soft stick spar any day of the week with my group. I'm not about to drive four hours, pay for the gas and pay $150 to register, just to soft stick spar. I agree that it is useful but with all do respect to everyone who thinks it is, it is not a fight (refer to my post above). If I would have not been lied to up until the very end, my personal tiff with this tournament would be nonexistent.

Gruhn

[JohnJ]

Hey Gruhn,

Thanks for your follow-up. My post was not directed at you but in general. I understand your frustration with the whole event. Have you expressed them directly with the host yet?


Fighting – All out destruction and domination of your opponent.

Now, regarding your definition of a fight...do you really believe that these venues were established as fights? I personally don't think anyone who participates in it considers them as fights. They are competitive sparring matches with camaraderie in mind. Not even the infamous DBMA Gatherings ARE fights. Fighting would be you and I in the parking lot with a tire iron and mag light.

If you are still looking for sparring partners to do "all out stickfighting" then let us work out something. Let's get a bunch a players from all groups including James and his group and play. Let's compare and help improve our skills.

JohnJ

[Datu Tim Hartman]

. Let's get a bunch a players from all groups including James and his group and play. Let's compare and help improve our skills.

JohnJ

Good idea John.

[ryangruhn]

Hey Gruhn,

Thanks for your follow-up. My post was not directed at you but in general. I understand your frustration with the whole event. Have you expressed them directly with the host yet?



Now, regarding your definition of a fight...do you really believe that these venues were established as fights? I personally don't think anyone who participates in it considers them as fights. They are competitive sparring matches with camaraderie in mind. Not even the infamous DBMA Gatherings ARE fights. Fighting would be you and I in the parking lot with a tire iron and mag light.

If you are still looking for sparring partners to do "all out stickfighting" then let us work out something. Let's get a bunch a players from all groups including James and his group and play. Let's compare and help improve our skills.

JohnJ

Sorry, it was just another moment for me to vent =) In regards to contacting the host, in all honesty I don't think talking to Apolo about it would help any. While this thread is not a good example, I try and leave things in the past and look onto the future. It will simply be known that none of my group will have the MD open in their future.

In regards to fighting:

Everyone that was at the MD Open 2005 fights can attest, they were fights. Here was mine:

http://www.realcontactfighting.com/videos/mdopen2005/Fight.mpeg

2005 was really close in nature to the Dog Brother's gatherings I have done except there was a ref and a few other minor rules. This year was the exact opposite.

Gruhn

[Datu Tim Hartman]

http://www.realcontactfighting.com/videos/mdopen2005/Fight.mpeg



Link seems to be broken.

[ryangruhn]

Weird,
It works for me. If it does not open right click, save as.

Gruhn

[Datu Tim Hartman]

http://www.realcontactfighting.com/videos/mdopen2005/Fight.mpeg

I've tried it on 2 different browsers and it still doesn't work.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I checked on a different pc and it still doesn't play.

[blindside]

The link works for me, opens in Windows Media Player.

[PeteNerd]

I checked on a different pc and it still doesn't play.

Try to download it and then open it... I think the file extension is wrong. Windows Media player should play it after you download it.

Pete

[Datu Tim Hartman]

It opens a window and just sits there. I will try my aol.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I finally got it to work. What a pain in the Ass!!

[PeteNerd]

I finally got it to work. What a pain in the Ass!!
Was it worth all the trouble? The fight was less than spectacular, but seemed fairly well matched. I'm interested to see if this kind of stick fighting competition catches on. I'd be into training for it and trying it out.

Pete

[ryangruhn]

The fight was less than spectacular, but seemed fairly well matched.


Thanks Pete =) I'll try to make my next fight a little spiffier!

Gruhn

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Sorry, it was just another moment for me to vent =) In regards to contacting the host, in all honesty I don't think talking to Apolo about it would help any. While this thread is not a good example, I try and leave things in the past and look onto the future. It will simply be known that none of my group will have the MD open in their future. Gruhn
Ryan-

In all fairness to Apolo, I think you should bring your concerns to Apolo and give him the opportunity to make things right. A tournament host can’t fix a problem if he doesn’t know about it. The other thing is knowing what you’re looking for. Are you looking for FMA or MMA stick fighting?

[ryangruhn]

I think its best if the issue is just let go. I was simply looking for the same thing they had last year (as I mentioned before – what they promoted). I know this thread has been brought to his attention and if he wishes to contact me that is his choice. I have no reason of contacting him. Money is not an issue but if he does wish to apologize (no pun intended :lookaroun ) I am not going to contact him just to get one. The damage morally and ethically is done and he knows this. The ball is in his court if he wishes to make things right. I am a very forgiving person and at this point could care less about the situation. Could we all come to an agreement just to move on away from this thread?

Gruhn

[PeteNerd]

Thanks Pete =) I'll try to make my next fight a little spiffier!

Gruhn

Hey man, I'm just giving you a hard time. I do computer support and it took me a bit of fiddling to get the clip to play. If you're ever around philly let me know. We can try to beat each other up or something :)

Peter

[ryangruhn]

Haha,
It's all good!

Gruhn