FMA boxing and western boxing...

[KrissOfSweden]

I was wondering if the fma boxing had influnece western boxing and the other way around? And if so, how and why?

...

Take Care

[ap Oweyn]

The only thing I can think of along these lines is the story of Ted Lucaylucay's father Lucky. He was a champion boxer and eskrimador if I remember correctly. There were some articles during the 90s on the influence of FMA on modern boxing. (Not the other way around.)

Ted Lucaylucay, just in case, was (RIP) an FMA practitioner from Dan Inosanto's camp.


Stuart

[JPR]

Guro Inosanto often talks about Panatukan's influence on western boxing. It occured during the GI's stay in the PI.

I don't have any references / written material. Maybe some of the other Inosanto people have those...

Jerry

[JohnJ]

The story in the U.S. FMA community was that FMA had an influence on Western boxing. I don't believe that to be true. Panantukan is not even recgonized as the so-called Filipino boxing in the PI. Suntukan meaning to strike/hit is more common and in terms of boxing, it is referred to as what else, boxing. Pananjakman (kicking art) is also unheard of as Sipa is to kick while Sikaran is a form of foot fighting. Boxing has always been a very admired sport in the Filipino culture and was more widely practiced than Arnis,Kali & Eskrima. I am pretty confident that if you were to ask any trainers/boxers from the Flashe Elorde (one of the most famous Pinoy boxers) era, they would not know anything about a particular FMA Boxing, just boxing.

John J

[ap Oweyn]

The story in the U.S. FMA community was that FMA had an influence on Western boxing. I don't believe that to be true. Panantukan is not even recgonized as the so-called Filipino boxing in the PI. Suntukan meaning to strike/hit is more common and in terms of boxing, it is referred to as what else, boxing. Pananjakman (kicking art) is also unheard of as Sipa is to kick while Sikaran is a form of foot fighting. Boxing has always been a very admired sport in the Filipino culture and was more widely practiced than Arnis,Kali & Eskrima. I am pretty confident that if you were to ask any trainers/boxers from the Flashe Elorde (one of the most famous Pinoy boxers) era, they would not know anything about a particular FMA Boxing, just boxing.

John J

That's my sense of things too. That terms like panantukan, mano mano, filipino boxing, and so on don't represent specific practices. I think they're more like an acknowledgement that empty hand tactics have to be addressed. And various groups address those needs in various characteristic ways. Some of those ways may be more influenced by boxing than others.


Stuart

[KrissOfSweden]

I was told that because of the FMA boxing methods forced the western boxing became lot of tighter after there visit under ww2 ... i am not sure if the time period is right... that's why i am curious if there are any influence from the fma boxing and the western boxing...

[ap Oweyn]

I was told that because of the FMA boxing methods forced the western boxing became lot of tighter after there visit under ww2 ... i am not sure if the time period is right... that's why i am curious if there are any influence from the fma boxing and the western boxing...

Who was the source? Not that I'm trying to discredit them. But it may help explain any attributions they make.

I guess I've gotten pretty cynical somewhere along the line. But it's hard for me to imagine that encounters with Filipino boxers would have filtered all the way through the western boxing world.

Having said that, though, it really only takes one man to make a big change. Muhammed Ali would have held that sort of influence. So if someone influenced him, then perhaps...

(I'm not saying that Ali is the link. Just suggesting the type of stature we're talking about here.)


Stuart

[Sheldon Bedell]

I just don't see boxers bloclikg the way I see blocks done in most FMA

[KrissOfSweden]

Who was the source? Not that I'm trying to discredit them. But it may help explain any attributions they make.

I guess I've gotten pretty cynical somewhere along the line. But it's hard for me to imagine that encounters with Filipino boxers would have filtered all the way through the western boxing world.

Having said that, though, it really only takes one man to make a big change. Muhammed Ali would have held that sort of influence. So if someone influenced him, then perhaps...

(I'm not saying that Ali is the link. Just suggesting the type of stature we're talking about here.)


Stuart

I am so sorry that i don't remember the name of the guy who told me, but know it was someone with great experinse so that was why i started to think and then asked... :)

I have been mailing some outstanding Guros with the same qeustion, hopeing that they will give me some answers. Then i will get back to this subject... :)

Can ask bit offtopic what your background are? I am just curious by nature, are you a modern arnis player or do you train something else? It's just fun to get to know all the people here on the forum a little extra.. :) I hope it's oki...

[Brian R. VanCise]

I seem to recall that these claims started around the same
time that the various filipino names for boxing started to be
bandied about. I do not know if filipino boxing influenced
western boxing or not. My thought would be initially, no!
However, there is always the off chance that it did, but I
think it would be pretty hard to find the documentation to
prove it. I tend to think that some FMA practitioners just
wanted to get some credibility for their empty hands and
thought that associating with boxing would help. Credibility
that they did not need, I might ad! I am certainly
interested in what other people might be able to dig up
or in specific references a teacher might have made.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The late Teddy Lucaylucay wrote articles about the filipino influences on boxing. I will look for a copy of the articles.:bow:

[JohnJ]

I guess maybe we need clarification...

Are we talkin about the Panantukan Filipino Boxing made famous by the JKD community, Filipino Boxers in general or Eskrima influencing Western boxing? I recall the article but didn't it talk about a Filipino boxer (possibly Elorde) being influenced by eskrima?

JohnJ

[ap Oweyn]

I am so sorry that i don't remember the name of the guy who told me, but know it was someone with great experinse so that was why i started to think and then asked...

It's cool. I was mostly just curious.

There's a lot of discussion of Filipino boxing. And certainly, there are people who know more about it than me. But to my understanding, it's more of an empty hand application of some knife concepts to boxing. Hitting the bicep or wrist with your knuckles to simulate cutting with the knife, etc.


I have been mailing some outstanding Guros with the same qeustion, hopeing that they will give me some answers. Then i will get back to this subject...

By all means do. It's a favourite of mine too.


Can ask bit offtopic what your background are? I am just curious by nature, are you a modern arnis player or do you train something else? It's just fun to get to know all the people here on the forum a little extra.. I hope it's oki...

Modern arnis player? Hmm... I suppose so yeah. I've been training with a Modern arnis group for about 8 months now. But most of my FMA background (about 6 years) is in Doce Pares. And another 5 or so years in Inosanto Kali. So I'm a mutt. I don't really consider myself a Modern Arnis player, even though I train regularly with a Modern Arnis group.

I also have a background in taekwondo, JKD, kickboxing, and fencing. As I said, I'm a mutt.


Stuart

[KrissOfSweden]

The late Teddy Lucaylucay wrote articles about the filipino influences on boxing. I will look for a copy of the articles.:bow:

That would be awesome if you could Sir.. .:)

[KrissOfSweden]

I guess maybe we need clarification...

Are we talkin about the Panantukan Filipino Boxing made famous by the JKD community, Filipino Boxers in general or Eskrima influencing Western boxing? I recall the article but didn't it talk about a Filipino boxer (possibly Elorde) being influenced by eskrima?

JohnJ

I am talking about the philippino boxing... But the panantukan is fma boxing to? or are incoprated fma boxing principals or am i wrong?

[KrissOfSweden]

Modern arnis player? Hmm... I suppose so yeah. I've been training with a Modern arnis group for about 8 months now. But most of my FMA background (about 6 years) is in Doce Pares. And another 5 or so years in Inosanto Kali. So I'm a mutt. I don't really consider myself a Modern Arnis player, even though I train regularly with a Modern Arnis group.

I also have a background in taekwondo, JKD, kickboxing, and fencing. As I said, I'm a mutt.

Stuart

Oh that's cool, then you have been training for some time now...excuse but i really don't understand what you mean by you are a mutt...:D

[KrissOfSweden]

This is the reply that i got from a Mr Steve Grody
_________________________________________

Kriss,
Ted Lucay Lucay wrote an Inside Kung Fu article about this, try to find
it. In a nutshell, according to Inosanto, boxing originally looked the
way you see in pics of Jack Johnson. But when the Navy had much contact
with the Filipinos, they were influenced by their hand position and
foot work (Ali was admittedly influenced by Flash Elordes) which is why
the Navy always won the boxing competitions among the armed forces.
That in turn influenced boxing in general.

[JohnJ]

Stuart
But to my understanding, it's more of an empty hand application of some knife concepts to boxing. Hitting the bicep or wrist with your knuckles to simulate cutting with the knife, etc.

Yes, as described by the late Ted Lucaylucay. Those were some of the principles of the so-called Filipino boxing coined Panantukan. Sectoring, checking and monitoring were also included. It is clear to say that Panantukan did not have any influence as these tactics could probably do more harm than good for a boxer. Even footwork would be hard to fathom as sectoring requires basic triangles. Switching leads are relatively a no,no for any boxer.

The “hitting the bicep” or better yet execution of, is commonly known as guntings or destructions in JKD concepts. This is a perfect example of uses in Filipino terminology aside from the literal translation. Gunting or better yet ginunting means scissors. So in essence, the opposite motions create a scissoring like motion i.e. diagonal, vertical, outside guntings. Sadly, I have heard numerous practitioners say gunting means destruction.

Speaking of Ginunting, does anyone know why Pekiti Tirsia’s sword of choice is called a ginunting? If you take 2 of them and put one on top of the other it looks like a very large pair of scissors because of the design / arc.

Kriss
I am talking about the philippino boxing... But the panantukan is fma boxing to? or are incoprated fma boxing principals or am i wrong?

I don’t think there is an actual Filipino “style” of boxing. I believe Panantukan was a JKD concepts development of empty-hand methods which incorporated boxing.

Kris
In a nutshell, according to Inosanto, boxing originally looked the
way you see in pics of Jack Johnson. But when the Navy had much contact with the Filipinos, they were influenced by their hand position and foot work (Ali was admittedly influenced by Flash Elordes) which is why
the Navy always won the boxing competitions among the armed forces.
That in turn influenced boxing in general.

This statement brings clarity now. We are definitely not talking about Panantukan but obviously Filipino BOXERS possibly influencing Western boxing. However, I find it hard to believe that the influence was so great and was the cause for changing the hand positioning.

I am curious to know when Ali actually met Elorde or did this influence come by way of footage. I don’t think it happened in 75’ (Thrilla in Manila) cause Elorde’s career was already in a downward spiral by the mid-60’s.

Please understand that I am not trying to discredit the claims but am looking for clarification in the question and accounts.

John J

[ap Oweyn]

Oh that's cool, then you have been training for some time now...excuse but i really don't understand what you mean by you are a mutt...:D

I've been training in arnis on and off (more on than off) since 1989. As for the "mutt" thing, sorry. I mean what I do is a mixture of lots of things. Arnis, kickboxing, etc. "Mutt" just sounds less pretentious to me than "eclectic." :D

[ap Oweyn]

Stuart

Yes, as described by the late Ted Lucaylucay. Those were some of the principles of the so-called Filipino boxing coined Panantukan. Sectoring, checking and monitoring were also included. It is clear to say that Panantukan did not have any influence as these tactics could probably do more harm than good for a boxer. Even footwork would be hard to fathom as sectoring requires basic triangles. Switching leads are relatively a no,no for any boxer.

Agreed. The switching leads thing, even when it does take place in boxing, doesn't happen the way it would in arnis.


The “hitting the bicep” or better yet execution of, is commonly known as guntings or destructions in JKD concepts. This is a perfect example of uses in Filipino terminology aside from the literal translation. Gunting or better yet ginunting means scissors. So in essence, the opposite motions create a scissoring like motion i.e. diagonal, vertical, outside guntings. Sadly, I have heard numerous practitioners say gunting means destruction.

I'm guilty of using "gunting" to describe any destruction, though I did know that literally it means "scissors." And really only two of the empty hand destructions I can think of involve a literal scissoring action. The slap to the inside of the bicep as you parry with the other hand and the downward guide with the parry hand as you come upward with the point of your elbow. The others I know aren't really scissoring motions at all. Is there another term that's more accurate?


Stuart

[Batang Sugbu]

The story in the U.S. FMA community was that FMA had an influence on Western boxing. I don't believe that to be true. Panantukan is not even recgonized as the so-called Filipino boxing in the PI. Suntukan meaning to strike/hit is more common and in terms of boxing, it is referred to as what else, boxing. Pananjakman (kicking art) is also unheard of as Sipa is to kick while Sikaran is a form of foot fighting. Boxing has always been a very admired sport in the Filipino culture and was more widely practiced than Arnis,Kali & Eskrima. I am pretty confident that if you were to ask any trainers/boxers from the Flashe Elorde (one of the most famous Pinoy boxers) era, they would not know anything about a particular FMA Boxing, just boxing.

John J
I concur with the foregoing! Let me add..and let me be straightforward about it. This story has no basis in fact and obviously fabricated to give a more "Eastern flavor" to Western boxing. I grew up in Cebu City, am still living in Cebu City considered the capital of eskrima and boxing in the Philippines and I've watched and talked and boxed since childhood... all I can remember from the great Cebuano boxers of yore like Flash Elorde, Tanny Campo, Kid Independence, Francisco Balug, Tony Jumao-as, Carl Penalosa, Tito Gonzaga, etc. was that contrary to what Inosanto et al are espousing, it's the reverse. These boxers were influenced by American hall of famers like Gene Tunney, Joe Louise, Sugar "Ray" Robinson, Kid Gavilan, Jersey Joe Walcott, Sonny Liston, Willie Pep, Sandy Sadler, Floyd Patterson.

Panantukan is a non-existent martial art in the Philippines, likewise Kino-mutai (spelling deliberately changed ot give it a more oriental motif) by Paul Vunak. Kinomotay in Bisaya translation means - squeezing fight or mashing game. it's derive from the root word Komot, to squeeze. Among Cebuanos it also connotes a fight among women or homosexuals - not a deadly martial art but a sissy game!

IMHO, I like WEstern boxing the way I learned from the great American boxers! These exotic sounding martial arts like Panantukan and Kinomutai have been fabricated long before the internet revolution. Their story tellers took comfort in the fact that in those days long before broad band, no one would be silly enough to go through the arduous job of digging into libraries to refute the veracity of these stories - like the kali urban legend!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Batang Sugbu,

Basically this is my understanding as well. However I do not mind
to much what Paul Vunak or Dan Inosanto did. I understand
that really, they just wanted to have a different name to
distinguish themselves. Whether it is right or wrong is certainly
not for me to judge. More a case for Dan Inosanto's Filipino peers to judge than anyone else.

Having trained many times in the past with Dan I have always
found him to be a very good seminar teacher and a genuinely
open person with his martial skills.

As to the boxing, I am sure that possibly some western style
Filipino boxers have influenced other non-filipino boxers and
I would expect that it is vice versa as well. I am still open to
discussion on this subject and would be interested to see
what evidence or information anyone could possibly dig up.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[JohnJ]

Brian,


I understand that really, they just wanted to have a different name to distinguish themselves. Whether it is right or wrong is certainly
not for me to judge. More a case for Dan Inosanto's Filipino peers to judge than anyone else.

Naming sub-systems is not an issue. It was more on whether such arts existed in the Philippines...their autheticity? Since they are NOT indigenous to the PI, it would be only right to point it out. The Kino Mutai stories became the brunt of jokes, sarcasm and was even found insulting by some of the Manongs and students back home. You are correct, it is not for anyone to judge but such claims are obviously more hurtful to the culture it supposedly stems from.

John J

[Nanalo74]

Panantukan is a non-existent martial art in the Philippines, likewise Kino-mutai (spelling deliberately changed ot give it a more oriental motif) by Paul Vunak. Kinomotay in Bisaya translation means - squeezing fight or mashing game. it's derive from the root word Komot, to squeeze. Among Cebuanos it also connotes a fight among women or homosexuals - not a deadly martial art but a sissy game!

IMHO, I like WEstern boxing the way I learned from the great American boxers! These exotic sounding martial arts like Panantukan and Kinomutai have been fabricated long before the internet revolution. Their story tellers took comfort in the fact that in those days long before broad band, no one would be silly enough to go through the arduous job of digging into libraries to refute the veracity of these stories - like the kali urban legend!
Well, once upon a time Westerners considered kicking sissy fighting also. Does that make it ineffective? Should we all take kicks out of our arsenal because we don't want to be considered unmanly?

You contradict yourself by first explaining the root and definition of the word, squeezing or mashing which could also mean pinching, then saying it is a sissy game. Kinomotay or Kino Mutai or Kinomutai (what difference does the spelling make) may be considered unmanly by some but it works. It hurts like hell and it is effective. I've used it. I've had it used on me. I've tossed 275 lb. men around just by grabbing a little skin on their bicep or neck.

So maybe I'm womanly. But I can whip some ass.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com (http://www.combatartsusa.com)

[Nanalo74]

To continue,

Paul Vunak did not invent the term Kino Mutai, nor did he invent the system. He learned it from Dan Inosanto, who in turn learned it from Johnny Lacoste. He was taught that when you get in close you can pinch and bite to control your opponent.

Grabbing an earlobe to bring a guy in close for an elbow or pinching a guy's bicep so he won't notice the shot coming in from the rear hand is very effective when in close range.

Panantukan is the Lucaylucay family boxing system. That's what they called it so that's what Dan called it. Most Filipino Martial Art systems are passed on through the families from one generation to another. What they decide to call it is up to them.

My instructor, Barry Cuda, trained with Dan Inosanto for 9 years and says that Dan picked things up from the various people he trained with over the years. He never claimed to invent anything, he merely passed on what he was taught and those that he taught used the terms that were passed on to them.

No one is saying that these techniques are universally taught in the PI nor that every system uses them. This is what Dan was taught by his instructors and this is what he blended together for his system. As for the names, well I'm sure if we took a poll of the various FMA systems represented on this website we would find that one technique has several names depending on who you ask and where they are from. Does that mean that they are wrong or that the technique doesn't exist just because another system doesn't use it?

Besides, what difference does it make what you call it? All that matters is that it works and it keeps you alive.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com (http://www.combatartsusa.com)

[JohnJ]

You contradict yourself by first explaining the root and definition of the word, squeezing or mashing which could also mean pinching, then saying it is a sissy game. Kinomotay or Kino Mutai or Kinomutai (what difference does the spelling make) may be considered unmanly by some but it works. It hurts like hell and it is effective. I've used it. I've had it used on me. I've tossed 275 lb. men around just by grabbing a little skin on their bicep or neck.

Allow me to interject as this topic has been discussed before on several forums in the past years. The issue is not a matter of whether or not the techniques taught are effective. The only issues were whether the so called arts of panantukan, kino mutai and others were indigenous or authentic fighting methods from the Philippines or arts that evolved or were developed elsewhere.

With the abundance of various dialects in the Philippines, a misuse of words will easily be taken out of context and such connotations can be found absurd, humorous or just plain offensive to Filipinos and their culture. And this is why many have chosen to speak frankly. By no means are the comments meant to discredit the efforts of certain individuals but rather to provide accuracy as to which arts evolved in the Philippines vs. those which were not. I am sorry to be redundant but quite often people miss the point because exchanging dialogue in forums are often gray and clarity is missed.


Paul Vunak did not invent the term Kino Mutai, nor did he invent the system. He learned it from Dan Inosanto, who in turn learned it from Johnny Lacoste. He was taught that when you get in close you can pinch and bite to control your opponent.

Thanks for pointing this out although I am familiar with the story some may not be. I would like to point out that that from my experience such tactics are not meant to control but rather stimulate a flinch or response as a distraction. By doing so, you can either better position yourself or set up your opponent for more hurtful methods.



Panantukan is the Lucaylucay family boxing system. That's what they called it so that's what Dan called it. Most Filipino Martial Art systems are passed on through the families from one generation to another. What they decide to call it is up to them. My instructor, Barry Cuda, trained with Dan Inosanto for 9 years and says that Dan picked things up from the various people he trained with over the years. He never claimed to invent anything, he merely passed on what he was taught and those that he taught used the terms that were passed on to them. No one is saying that these techniques are universally taught in the PI nor that every system uses them. This is what Dan was taught by his instructors and this is what he blended together for his system.

If I recall, panantukan/panuntukan, kino-mutai and others were in fact being labeled and promoted as authentic Filipino methods. Some of the stories that surfaced from kino-mutai aside from pinching & biting were that the Manongs would spit in the eyes of their opponents with liquefied tar from chewing tobacco.

Does that mean that they are wrong or that the technique doesn't exist just because another system doesn't use it?

No. However, we must all be more considerate of various cultures and the pride that some people let alone practitioners possess. We must be open to the ideas that what has been shared before will not always bare truth. And I think with the growing popularity of FMA around the world and the many systems now finding its way out of the Philippines, we will see various issues and the myths and fables (i.e. decuerdas tunnels) that accompany them slowly deteriorate.

John J

[wes tasker]

I've always wondered something about the term "panantukan" itself. Is it possible that this word came into being from either Manong LaCoste or one of his teachers as a contraction of either "paggamit ng suntok" or "paggamit ng suntokan"?

Also, I do appreciate the points Mr. Jacobo made in reference to the many "myths" of the FMA, and I also am glad to see them start to fade. I'm not sure how wide spread some of the adherents of panantukan claim it was/is in the Philippines - but is it possible that the particular method imparted by Manong LaCoste was only practiced by one or two of his teachers? Same for the art practiced by Manong Lucaylucay?

As an amateur hoplologist, the whole panantukan case is interesting to me, and I appreciate the information so far on this thread. Thank you.

-wes tasker

[tonyr1967]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/boxing2.jpg

I don't think anyone can be certain what, if any, influence filipino boxing has had on western boxing...but somethings certainly changed during the 20th century.

My first post!!!

[Sun_Helmet]

My uncle introduced me to the great Flash Elorde when I was a child. My uncle was a boxer and also one of Flash's best friends. He was the ninong of Elorde's son, who used to visit my family in the states. My strongest recollection was the trophy room of Elorde's, it was filled with boxing related medals, trophies and belts.

Flash Elorde's father was a well known eskrimador. All the boxers who trained with Flash would hang out and ask his father to show them some moves. So Flash grew up with FMA in his blood and heritage. His father's specialty was the long and short.

Muhammad Ali was quoted in print and on tv during the Thrilla in Manila about his admiration of Flash Elorde. Ali was younger so he knew about Flash's fights.

Flash is still considered in the top tier of his weight class of all time by RING magazine, not an easy achievement considering the high caliber of fighters in that class.

Filipino boxers BEFORE Sugar Ray Robinson are captured on film showcasing their footwork and rhythmic movement against European champions. There was a distinct stylistic difference. Some Filipino boxers would get warned in the ring because they would use a flow of a hook turning over into a backhand which wasn't allowed in the ring.

It may have nothing to do with JKD terminology, but Filipino boxers of that time certainly knew what eskrimadors were and how they moved. I believe them to be smart enough to use whatever advantage they could absorb from their own martial culture.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Sun_Helmet]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/boxing2.jpg

I don't think anyone can be certain what, if any, influence filipino boxing has had on western boxing...but somethings certainly changed during the 20th century.

My first post!!!


PINOY BOXING

Viewing some old films of Pinoy Boxers you can see the distinct stylistic contrast from their Western opponents. As much as books and articles describe the action, the footage speak for themselves.

Now this is not to say other fighters moved this way based on their country of origin, but suffice to say the footage does SHOW an English/Western fighter versus a Filipino in the early era of Boxing as the sport we know today. I haven't seen footage of Filipino fighters of that era moving like their English/Western opponents, nor English/Western boxers moving like the Filipinos.

1923 World Flyweight Championship
Pancho Villa - Filipino versus Jimmy Wilde (World Champ)

In the past there were comments of the lack of blocking evident in European fighters. What I saw here is that Wilde would use his hands to try and deflect blows, like a fencer parrying attacks, but Wilde was rather unsuccessful due to Villa's agility and the way Villa over powered Wilde's stance, a probing left hand lead guard that extended out from Wilde's hip. Wilde's stance reminds me of some sabre fencer's low guard. The Filipino Villa would launch himself with power shots that went right through some of Wilde's defenses. It indicates to me that Wilde's guard was perfect for fighting someone who had a similar posture but not too effective against the Filipino's explosive crouching style. A style that is evident today with Manny Pacquaio.

In turn, the Filipino Villa would 'absorb' Wilde's punches in a semi crouch turtle guard that looked like Ken Norton's "peek a boo" style decades later (an influence?). This nullified a lot of Wilde's punches and Wilde kept delivering them at the same spots as if he could not adjust from his training's installed muscle memory.

Villa's guard is different from Wilde's. Wilde used the low held lead left, a bit out from the hips variety that another English fighter uses in the next fight I saw that was filmed a decade later. This open low hanging guard indicates that it was a very popular European boxing stance that lasted over a decade and was probably used before then as well.

So in contrast - Villa's arms were tucked close together and Wilde's were held out. FMA teaches to keep the arms close to the body to keep them from getting sliced up. European fencing teaches to keep a tip held out, which works great if one has a long sword or edged weapon with a point.

Now, I don't know if it is Villa's Filipino empty hand experience coming into play, but he does deliver 'illegal' type blows in this match which are backhands flowing after his right hook. It just flows right back after his hook and thumps Wilde a few times. So it's a half beat shot. Wilde even complains to the ref and shows him what Villa is doing. Villa does it pretty fast and tight on few occasions that the ref misses it. Those who train in FMA use this flow in weapons and empty hand work.

Villa won the fight.
-----

World Flyweight Championship 1937
Small Montana (aka Benjamin Gan, he's the Pinoy) versus Benny Lynch

If ever Filipino 'footwork' may have influenced Ali this is a good evidence of it.
Gan has a smooth subtle rhythmic bounce to his timing which is very reminiscent of Ali. His jab, especially as he slides away looks much like Ali's. Jab - stick and move.

Guards:
The Englishman ? Lynch would hold his lead left straighter, extended farther from his hips similar to Wilde's above.
The Filipino Gan's left lead is tucked ala Ali's along his side.
Surprisingly, Gan even does a slight 'Ali' shuffle as he zones out of the punches, DECADES prior to Ali popularizing the move.

Lynch would come in with a nice lunging left then pop back on his feet. His bounce was after the fact...very different- like a fencer getting out of the way after a lunge and recovering from the movement. Linear. He establishes this more as the fight wore on. Otherwise Lynch was the flatter of foot.

Gan would be bouncing prior to striking ala Ali. Then slide back and bounce away. The bounce was more a timing gauge as it set up his shots rather than recover. This explosiveness and bouncy rhythm is again reminiscent of the earlier Filipino boxer.

Decision goes to Lynch. Gan looks like he abandoned his earlier smooth style and stood flatter- perhaps fatigue set in. No one looked badly hurt in the fight.

--------

One detail really stood out- the way the boxers acted on the ring. They would shake hands prior to the bout as they entered the ring as if to meet for afternoon tea or something.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[arnisador]

It's really interesting to read about the specific differences in the Western and Filipino approaches to boxing. I'd like to see someone puclish a serious study of it. Everyone argues about who influenced whom in boxing (as in otehr arts), but I wonder if an historian could really tease out the truth?

[Silence_sucks]

The way it was explained to me was that the Filipino martial arts being a weapons based system and the empty hands components no matter what they are called being derived from knife and other weapons work meant that hand positioning and foot work was based off the knife work. The hands up to protect the neck like in tapi tapi, to not present a target to the knife and the foot work based off the evasiveness needed to deal with the knife in largo mano range. The more diverse angles and types of strikes used in the empty hand component was also attributed to the knife. All this you probably already knew.

Up until around the time when the G.I.'s did stay in the P.I. boxing used the the London rules of bare knuckle boxing which lacked the diversity of strikes and footwork that is seen in western boxing today. It was explained to me that because of the Filipinos knife influenced version of boxing that the concept of footwork, hand position and the different angles of strikes became practiced in western boxing.

Now I'm just taking this on the word of my sifu and Guro Inosanto but the correlation between the presence of the knife influenced Filipino empty hands and the introduction of the foot work, hand positioning and additional strikes into western boxing would logically indicate that there was some Filipino influence on western boxing.

[arnisador]

Quijano: A different kind of physician (http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb/2008/08/29/sports/quijano.a.different.kind.of.physician.html)


JV Tuazon known as the “Fighting Doc” isn’t an ordinary doctor of medicine. I do not want to belabor the obvious but that much can be ascertained by the fact that on Saturday he is scheduled to fight on the undercard of the Rey “Boom-Boom” Bautista–Marquez bout.

Coming from a martial arts background, where I studied Kali-Arnis-Eskrima, Silat, Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, Muay Thai, boxing was and is still difficult for me. I am still technically in grade school but I hope to graduate soon.

I also have a lot of old martial arts habits that I need to break.I am used to people kicking, kneeing, body slamming, and even hitting me with weapons. I am not working with a blank slate.I have to unlearn years of techniques.I have to suppress a lot of moves that have become second nature to me–from stance, to posture, to strategy.

For example, whereas a regular boxer would just parry a jab and counter, my boxing mindset is different.When someone tries to punch me, I have to work hard to inhibit my natural instinct of blocking, trapping, joint locking, throwing, and striking a vital organ.And often times, against these guys in the lighter divisions where they are fast, by the time I do that, it’s already too late.I would already be hit with a punch! But like I said, I love the challenge.

[Fan the Madman]

Arnisador,
Very cool article.

Everyone,
Question for you. Traditional arts guy with CMA and FMA background (i.e. me) has opportunity to get alot of one on one time with a master-class boxing coach (35+ years experience, multiple golden gloves and olympic levels coached, nationals etc.).
What (not IF.. I already know I should eat hearty) would you advise looking at in the boxing curriculum/training especially hard, from the viewpoint of improving one's FMA understanding and flow?

respects,
Bri

[arnisador]

Sharpening my jab and esp. cross were big for me, and I fire the live-hand cross a lot more now when tied up in stickwork!

[mabagani]

here's an article i read a couple of months ago from espn, written by an author from The Ring magazine-"A look at the history of boxing in Philippines"
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3458707