Tumbada what does it mean ?

[Black Grass]

Hi all i was just wondering if any of the Ilustrisimo players who speak Spanish or Tagalog know what the literal translation of tumbada is. Master Tups told me it means to 'push the hand' which describes the technique but what is the literal translation?

Vince

[Carol]

I'm not an Ilustrisumo player but I can help you with the translation. :)

Tumbada directly translates to "knocked down".

[Black Grass]

I'm not an Ilustrisumo player but I can help you with the translation. :)

Tumbada directly translates to "knocked down".

Thx Carol,

That totally makes sense. Is it spanish or tagalog ? Although, I am Filipino I don't speak Tagalog ( for the record my parents are cebuano) although I can get the gist of things when spoken spoken to in Tagalog.

This reminds me of Sumbrada/Sombra people often think it means 'roof block' or if you are JKD player 'counter for counter' when it actually means shadow or shade.

Vince

[Carol]

Hi Vince,

Unfortunately I don't speak Tagalog either :( but I do speak Spanish reasonably well. Its the adjective form of the verb tumbar.

Dictionaries usually translate tumbar as "to fall". However, the Spanish have two verbs that mean "to fall" - caer and tumbar. The verb caer is closest to the English verb to fall...leaves fall, trip and fall.

Tumbar however signifies a kind of falling that was caused by intent. Therefore, even though the dictionary says "to fall", the correct translation is "to knock down", and its adjective "knocked down".

Same with Sumbrada. The most common definitions are "shadow" or "shade", but it also means "protection from the sun" (and therefore) "overhang" or "shelter". :)

[citom]

I'm not from the Ilustrisimo camp either, but am a native Tagalog speaker. In Tagalog, "tumba" also means to fall over, to topple over, or to knock down. Eg. "Natumba si Jose sa suntok ni Gloria" = "Jose was knocked down by Gloria's punch"
"Tumbada" however, is not found in Tagalog. My guess is that it comes from Spanish as Carol pointed out. A lot of terms in the Ilustrisimo come from Spanish (florete, fraile, doblete, etc).

[Raul]

Carol got it!

[mike-a]

I would have thought it means "tumble" or "collapse", as we were taught the technique starts off like a crossada that doesn't work and then "tumbles" over to the other side so you can counter with a backhand.

[garrotista]

In the Cebuano (Bisaya) dialect, tumba also translates to "fall over, to topple over, or to knock down," just like Tagalog. The term tumbada, is also used by Teovel Balintawak players (from the Velez bro's lineage) to describe a block and/or strike technique.

[Raul]

A few of us believe that a lot of the techniques found in KI were once generic to most Filipino escrimadors' arsenal.

[arnisador]

I'm sure that could be said of many FMAs, right?

[Raul]

What I see is many FMAs not so long ago do not have this or that technique or principles or mindset or what have you then for some reason or another, they have almost transform into a new system or style adopting and practicing new techniques and methods with precepts totally alien to the old masters yet maintain that its still the same style and system pure and undiluted.
What now seems to be unique to the Ilustrisimos were once ordinary practices of many Filipino escrimadors.

[lveskrima]

What I see is many FMAs not so long ago do not have this or that technique or principles or mindset or what have you then for some reason or another, they have almost transform into a new system or style adopting and practicing new techniques and methods with precepts...FMAs are constantly evolving - this is what makes them better than 'traditional' martial artists


...totally alien to the old masters yet maintain that its still the same style and system pure and undiluted.IMO there are no such things as "new' techniques - just forgotten ones and ones practiced more often. Style is unique to the individual. The techniques, concepts and principles he chooses to practice most are what make up his style. This doesn't mean that the system that his teacher is showing him is not pure.


What now seems to be unique to the Ilustrisimos were once ordinary practices of many Filipino escrimadors.Individual techniques are definitely not unique to the Ilustrisimo system. However, the execution of techniques and methods of training, and principles as a whole certainly make it unique. Tatang never really taught his style nor did he have a system. It was Master Diego and Master Ricketts who organized what they absorbed from Tatang into a system.

[Twist]

Individual techniques are definitely not unique to the Ilustrisimo system. However, the execution of techniques and methods of training, and principles as a whole certainly make it unique. Tatang never really taught his style nor did he have a system. It was Master Diego and Master Ricketts who organized what they absorbed from Tatang into a system.

There certainly are several techniques in KI I've not seen anywhere else in the Philippines. Of course I've seen only about 30-40 styles, mostly in Visayas and Manila, but I've seen all the major ones and they differ a lot from Mang Tonys Kalis Ilustrisimo.

So I've to agree with Raul, who of course also knows more about KI then me ;)

[Raul]

FMAs are constantly evolving - this is what makes them better than 'traditional' martial artists "Better" in what way? Also, the art cannot be better than the artist whether he's traditional or whatnot.


IMO there are no such things as "new' techniques - just forgotten ones and ones practiced more often.How can you forget something you have never learned?

Style is unique to the individual. The techniques, concepts and principles he chooses to practice most are what make up his style. This doesn't mean that the system that his teacher is showing him is not pure.Unless this individual's unique style, techniques, concepts and principles vehemently oppose those of his teacher's or his teacher's art. It's more appropriate to give his style a new name and just acknowledge the arts and masters where and whom he learned from than profess to practice and teach a pure but improved style/system.


Individual techniques are definitely not unique to the Ilustrisimo system.However, the execution of techniques and methods of training, and principles as a whole certainly make it unique.Even with an hour of real training with the Kalis Ilustrisimo guys in Manila can easily change that notion.

[Tatang never really taught his style nor did he have a system.As in never?! Is it possible to formally teach an art as vast and intricate as Ilustrisimo without a system?

It was Master Diego and Master Ricketts who organized what they absorbed from Tatang into a system.All of tatang's students organize what they absorbed from his teachings into their own system. The difference is how much one tries not to add and adopt anything from outside source.
As tatang said, "Don't try to be like me, try to be you."

[CincoTeros]

From what I heard, Tatang did not really teach. Instead Tatang would show a technique and it's up to the student to understand what he did.

[Raul]

As the saying goes "believe only half of what you see, and nothing that you hear." Mostracion is just the beginning, it doesn't end there. You can't learn or understand Ilustrisimo by just watching, if that's possible then most of those including friends and FMAers who regularly watch and visits the Ilustrisimos will be able to play or do Ilustrisimo by now. And also, tatang rarely showed any technique to anyone. Because he seldom explained (to just anyone)what he did , its a common notion that he simply intercepts, hit the arm, face or body and that was all. There's much more to Ilustrisimo than meets the eye.

[eome]

As the saying goes "believe only half of what you see, and nothing that you hear." Mostracion is just the beginning, it doesn't end there. You can't learn or understand Ilustrisimo by just watching, if that's possible then most of those including friends and FMAers who regularly watch and visits the Ilustrisimos will be able to play or do Ilustrisimo by now. And also, tatang rarely showed any technique to anyone. Because he seldom explained (to just anyone)what he did , its a common notion that he simply intercepts, hit the arm, face or body and that was all. There's much more to Ilustrisimo than meets the eye.




Well said.

[Don Quixote]

Just a side point in this discussion; anyone who has tried to teach someone anything will know that ability to actually observe someone and reproduce what was observed accurately with thier own bodies is rare and highly desirable. I think it might have been Yang Luchan that said that observation in training is more important than practice. Practice in turn is more important than theory.

[CincoTeros]

Raul,
I take it you are an illustrisimo player in Manila (which is very cool btw--wish I could be there studying fma). If you don't mind me asking--are you with Yuli Romo, Tony Diego, Romy Mapacagal, Topher Ricketts?

[Raul]

I meet all of them when they find time to go to Luneta. I spend most of my time with Mang Tony and Mang Romy in Luneta, Binondo and Zabala.

[armas]

I agree with Raul.

Tatang did teach. This is based on my own experience of studying with him for 2 years. I am not an authority like the Pillars(Yuli Romo, Tony Diego, Romy Macapagal, Edgar Sulite, Ernie Talag, Rey Galang, and Tupher Ricketts). I was just lucky to be a student who was willing to learn from Tatang. He would break things down and explain his fighting method. If he wanted to teach you. I bet Raul can relate. But you had to take a beating first to gain his trust. Tatang was quite a teacher. He had few moves. But knew how to use them. It was simplicity in his movements that made him and effective fighter.

Just sharing........

[Makata]

More power to the Ilustrisimo tribe, whereever we may be. :)

Lester S./New York

[Banakun]

Tatang did teach. This is based on my own experience of studying with him for 2 years. I am not an authority like the Pillars(Yuli Romo, Tony Diego, Romy Macapagal, Edgar Sulite, Ernie Talag, Rey Galang, and Tupher Ricketts). I was just lucky to be a student who was willing to learn from Tatang. He would break things down and explain his fighting method. If he wanted to teach you. I bet Raul can relate. But you had to take a beating first to gain his trust. Tatang was quite a teacher. He had few moves. But knew how to use them. It was simplicity in his movements that made him and effective fighter.

Well said. You don't have to be flashy to be effective. In a real fight, LESS IS MORE! Was it Bruce Lee who said... "Better to have one technique I can use than a thousand I just know." Simplicity is the hallmark of mastery!

Love you KI guys! More power to your group!http://fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[eskrimador]

tumbada in kalis illustrisimo if i'm not wrong, is the basic parrying technique in which the defender have to "fall over" his weapon to fend an incoming low attack or middle thrust.this is done by just lowering the armed arm and with slight downward twisting of the wrist.

[PG Michael B]

tumbada in kalis illustrisimo if i'm not wrong, is the basic parrying technique in which the defender have to "fall over" his weapon to fend an incoming low attack or middle thrust.this is done by just lowering the armed arm and with slight downward twisting of the wrist.

That is correct..a slight energy release. More of a redirection than a parry. The way Maestro Yuli teaches there is always a forward pressure like a coiled spring...with said pressure your constantly loaded hence when you feel movement you reciprocate in kind and uncoil into whatever you need to do to rectify said situation.

[teovel'sBalintawak]

Thx Carol,

That totally makes sense. Is it spanish or tagalog ? Although, I am Filipino I don't speak Tagalog ( for the record my parents are cebuano) although I can get the gist of things when spoken spoken to in Tagalog.

This reminds me of Sumbrada/Sombra people often think it means 'roof block' or if you are JKD player 'counter for counter' when it actually means shadow or shade.

Vince

Tumba is the Cebuano or Bisayan term of stumble in english. So tumbada is stumbling.

[Raul]

One of the meanings of tumba in Tagalog is kill.