Spears

[Sheldon Bedell]

Why have I not heard of any of the FMA that teaches spear tactics. It seems that the spear was used in warfare so why is it still not taught?

[Balintawak]

Why have I not heard of any of the FMA that teaches spear tactics. It seems that the spear was used in warfare so why is it still not taught?

Good Point.

My Guess, and there are some that do staff like work, or longer stick, so I would imagine they have some of the spear work in there. I also know that some have Bayonet techniques for practicality, and this could have been originally Spear work modified to a modern weapon.

Hoping someone can actual point and say this art teaches Spear, versus what I can say, of I see it could be, or that one technique could have been.

[arnisador]

Now that you mention, that is odd...I've seen it used in FMA demos, but never saw someone whose art taught it, that I know of.

[lhommedieu]

I've seen three FMA's that have a spear curriculum:

Kombatan

Pekiti Tirsia Kali

San Miguel Eskrima

A search on the Eskrima Digest FAQ page http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/digests/fmafaq.htm

for "spear" showed that the Inayan System of Eskrima and Sayoc Kali also include spear in their curriculum.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Buwaya]

My thoughts.

The wars that the majority of FMA systems actively took part in(WW2, Philippine revolution) did not involve(except perhaps in rare instances) spearplay.

Most FMA systems for the most part cannot trace themselves farther than the late 1800s, early 1900s. The systems that can(Doce Pares, Pekiti Tirsa/Dekiti Tirsia, Ilustrisimo) Don't come from regions that I think of haveing a living, thriving martial spear culture.

Groups that do(some cases did) have a living martial spear culture, such as the lumad and BangsaMoro aren't opening up clubs and gyms and having membership drives(except for a few fairly recent exceptions).

That being said I beleive in the Dogbrothers video "the Grandfathers Speak" you can see the Villibrille Largusa demo team doing spear. Also note in Tobosa's section of Philippine Martial culture you can see GM Villibrille in a photo holding a spear.

Dekiti Tirsia also has spear work and Doblette Rapillion had a bayonet curriculum.

[Sheldon Bedell]

Good points of thought thanks


Wish we could get someone from these systems that do teach the spear to tell us a little of the training

[arnisador]

Does Ric Jornales teach it in his Arnis-Sikaran? I know I've seen him use it in demos, but then, he uses everything in demos!

[wes tasker]

Greetings-

I can speak, at least a little bit, of the spear work in Pekiti Tirsia as taught by Tuhon Bill McGrath. Their are 12 warm ups taught at first that teach basic mechanics of thrusts, hits, and weapon manipulation so that you can effectively use the weapon without getting in your own way. Then there are 2 sets of 12 "techniques" that are based on the first two sets of Solo Baston Seguidas. The first set of "techniques" are based on long range tactics where there are responses to either an enemies direct attacks or when an initial attack is blocked and/or intercepted. The second set are more middle range techniques with entering strategies and solutions to the "problems" one might encounter by being in middle to close range with a primarily long range tool. The reason I put "techniques" in italics is that I look at them as more of examples of a particular mechanic / strategy / principle then dogmatic things to follow.

These sets adapt well to long staff. A shorter staff of around 48 - 50 inches is used in a slightly different way in Pekiti Tirsia. From what Tuhon Bill has explained, the techniques are based on a boar spear the height of the user with a double edged blade a hand and a half long with tines that are at either end of the base of the blade. I hope this helps.

-wes tasker

[lhommedieu]

As with the other ancillary weapons of San Miguel Esrkima, the spear is used to train whole-body connection and to develop attributes that Momoy Canete considered essential to espada y daga technique. Because both hands are placed on the shaft of the spear, both shoulders are engaged and the legs and waist are coordinated to generate speed and power.

I learned a long form and a two-man set using a six foot length of 1 1/4" hickory, so this "spear" is somewhat heavier than its longer Chinese cousins, and thus may also reflect an agricultural or hunting tradition - as Wes Tasker mentions above.

Movements are simple, powerful, and direct. There is emphasis placed in the form on 90 degree turns into an opponent that are followed by linear stepping patterns and basic horizontal and diagonal strikes that change levels from high to low to high, etc. Both the point and butt are used striking and thrusting. Thrusts are made by bringing the rear hand up to the front hand and allowing the spear to slide between the fingers of the front hand; there is also a rear thrust with the butt wherein both hands are moved backwards. Twirls are basic and practical and follow upward and downward diagonals, "figure 8's," etc. Footwork in the two-man set is primarily linear but includes stepping off-line to accomodate parries and counters.

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/momoy_files/bangkaw_example.jpg

Best,

Steve Lamade

[arnisador]

My Guess, and there are some that do staff like work, or longer stick, so I would imagine they have some of the spear work in there.

I've heard this suggested--that just as we know that the stick can represent a sword, we should figure that the staff can represent a spear. But most FMA staff work I've seen has been more "double-ended" (for want of a better word) than I'd expect if it truly represented a spear. The stick is used with blade awareness, so the translation makes sense...but in my experience the staff is not used with as much "tip-awareness" as would be the case for a spear.

One explanation I've heard for this is that perhaps the "spear" was in many cases just a staff with a pointed end, rather than a bladed end, so the tip was not as deadly as all that and using both ends made more sense. I don't know; I've seen many pictures and live examples of Filipino swords, and even own a few, but not many spears that are clearly of Filipino origin.

It does seem odd to me not to see more emphasis on it. If you lived in the Philippines and your village was going to battle against another village that had swords for weapons....wouldn't you fashion yourself a spear/glaive/halberd? It seems like an obvious thing to do. Polearms were common in both European and Oriental warfare (e.g. Chinese spear, Japanese naginata). I know they exist in the Philippines, of course--I'm just surprised not to see more emphasis on them. Judging from the last two posts, perhaps this reflects my experience more than the actual facts, though!

[arnisador]

Most FMA systems for the most part cannot trace themselves farther than the late 1800s, early 1900s. The systems that can(Doce Pares, Pekiti Tirsa/Dekiti Tirsia, Ilustrisimo) Don't come from regions that I think of haveing a living, thriving martial spear culture.

Yes, perhaps spear work was common at a time but has been lost for any number of reasons. The sword has more 'cachet' and is probably what people wanted to learn when the arts moved from a necessity to more of a hobby.

[JPR]

All opinion here.

I think you need to consider the terrain you are talking about. Spears are not great to use when there is a lot of blocking terrain (ie thick jungle, heavy / tall grass, etc.). Isn't that the reason that many Filipino swords are shorter?

Also, the Filipino staff is a shorter staff (4' to 5') versus the 6'+ staff of, say, China.

Jerry

[blindside]

All opinion here.

I think you need to consider the terrain you are talking about. Spears are not great to use when there is a lot of blocking terrain (ie thick jungle, heavy / tall grass, etc.). Isn't that the reason that many Filipino swords are shorter?
Jerry

All opinion here too,

It seems to me this would be an argument against slashing weapons (requires bigger arc, and morel likely to hit obstacles) than a thrusting weapon.

Lamont

[arnisador]

That was my thought too--it argues more against swords than spears, I'd think.

Anyway, I'd wager that most battles were fought where there was enough space to swing a cat. You could be attacked in the jungle, of course, but two villages would fight in a clearing.

What's the historical accuracy of these claims that many FMAs developed for village-to-village battles?

[Buwaya]

Arnisador,
Its inaccurate that Philippine spears are just "staves with pionty ends". There are many different types of metal spear head forms in the Philippines, some as long as a mans forearm, some with barbs to make it difficult to remove, some with prongs to catch fish.

I don't think its odd that you don't see a greater emphasis as most FMA comes from lowland Christian Pilipinos. If FMA come from the Moroland or the Mountain province I'm sure you'd see more spear work. Its very doubtful that the warfare that was used in interchiefdom raiding and pillageing looked anything like the FMA of today.

JPR,
Different systems use different size sibat. I've seen 3ft, 4ft, 5ft, and I've seen 6ft+.

Not all battles took place in jungles, many happened in the sea or on beaches.

Not all Philippine sundang is small, kampilan for example.

I think there's a telling sentence in GM Momoy's article in the FMAdigest that pertains to this;
"Momoy also introduced the spear, an ancient weapon that had fallen into disregard during the Spanish occupation".

[arnisador]

Thanks for the info. Buwaya. This is something about which I know very little.

Fallen into disregard...I wonder if it was banned, found to be less useful in the current circumstances, replaced by something more modern, replaced on some aesthetic grounds, or what?

[Sheldon Bedell]

I had thought of sea battles when asking this question first. The spear being a tool that could be used to hubt or fish with seemed a logical weapon of war.
Also it would seem to me that the spear would be a good weapon against men in armor

[lhommedieu]

I think there's a telling sentence in GM Momoy's article in the FMAdigest that pertains to this:

"Momoy also introduced the spear, an ancient weapon that had fallen into disregard during the Spanish occupation".

That sentence is taken from Tom Bisio's "San Miguel Eskrima Student Handbook" that he gave to his instructors in 1995. I included that sentence in the description of the curriculum of the San Miguel Eskrima Association that appears in Ray Terry's "Filipino Martial Arts FAQ" (in the FMA Digest article quoted above).

A rewrite of Tom's chapter about Momoy Canete that includes additional information provided by Agapito Gonzalez, Ramon Rubia, and Steve Drape appears on the following URL:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/momoy.htm

I'll have to ask Tom for his take on the matter the next time that I see him, but my own opinion is that as Filipinos became increasingly concentrated in large urban areas during the 19th century (or worked on large rural farms and plantations) the use of the spear, which was probably a tool and weapon of the mountain and coastal village, simply faded away. Certainly however there must be pockets of populations throughout the Philippines that refused to be modernized and maintained an agricultural/tribal culture into the 20th/21st century; it is here that I would look for training in the use of the Filipino spear. There is probably a diversity in the types of spear-work that one can find as there are differences between spears in terms of their appearance and function.

With respect to Momoy's spear: it is used primarily as a training weapon and secondarily as a fighting weapon per se. It is interesting to note however that a close-up of the spear tip that appears in the picture of Momoy in the URL given above reveals that one-sided blade that can be used for slashing as well as thrusting. It would thus appear to be an effective weapon in its own right:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/momoy_files/spear_detail.jpg

Several years ago a friend of mine gave me a Cold Steel "Bushman" for outdoor survival purposes - and also suggested that I attach it to the end of my "spear" for training purposes. See the following URL for a picture; there is a close similarity between the bushman and the spear tip shown above:

http://store.yahoo.com/csstoreonline/fixed-blades-bushman.html

I put the bushman in a survival kit but I guess that I just shrugged my shoulders and forgot about it with respect to training. Now I think that I'll take his advice; I'll let you know how the experiment works out.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Sheldon Bedell]

they do seem to be closely related in shape.
Yes please let us know how it goes training with it as a spear

[JohnJ]

I believe GM Estalilla's Kabaroan is drawn from shield & spear methods. I have seen him demonstrate the use of short and long stick. The short being 36", much longer than the typical lengths while the long is possibly 5'. He utilized a center grip on the short stick to strike & parry and for the long had the thrust and sliding retractions of the spear. Interestingly, I had heard that some of the dos manos techniques are rifle butting maneuvers.

Are there any Kabaroan players that can clarify?

John J

[kroh]

One of the places I was training in FMA used to have that plaque you see all the time with the weapons covering the shield. There are quite a few spear types on it. Considering that plaque, what about other types of missle weapons? Have the FMA's done away with missle weapons training because of the advent of firearms or do any still play with muscle powered missle weapons (such as thrown knives, spears, and archery)?

Regards,
Walt

[kabaroan]

I believe GM Estalilla's Kabaroan is drawn from shield & spear methods. I have seen him demonstrate the use of short and long stick. The short being 36", much longer than the typical lengths while the long is possibly 5'. He utilized a center grip on the short stick to strike & parry and for the long had the thrust and sliding retractions of the spear. Interestingly, I had heard that some of the dos manos techniques are rifle butting maneuvers.

Are there any Kabaroan players that can clarify?

Kabaroan does indeed teach a dos manos technique called bambolia that uses rifle butting techniques.

Kabaroan primarily use 36" sticks (though we also use 30" sticks for doble baston training) and use 48-60" sticks for representation of the sibat (spear) and the bankaw (staff or shield staff).

At one of GM Estalilla's seminar's last year, he did a rather long session on the simultaneous use of the sibat and bankaw. I'm right handed. Typically the bankaw is held in the left hand and the sibat in the right. The bankaw is used to block, strike and redirect attacks. The sibat is used primarily for thrusting and rarely for throwing and even then at rather short distances. The skills learned typically are that of extension of the weapon (either) and the rotation of the sibat for thrusting, faux throwing and then trusting again so that the business end of the sibat is pointing toward the opponent.

As taught by GM Estalilla, the sibat was used for hunting (lechon, anyone? :)) more than for warfare, though like the panambas and the bolo, it found a role in warefare.

I hope this helps to clarify some of the aspects of our art. :)

[kabaroan]

We do have an anyo (form/kata) called binankaw used with a 60" bankaw and a shorter baston (I like to use a 36" baston) where the bankaw is typically held in the middle but during the form is elongated to extend the reach of the weapon by changing the grip to a point 1/3 to 1/4 the legth of the weapon and swinging around. Just after the weapon clears the front right half, the right hand throws/launches the 36" baston for a hit.