Walking Cane.

[arnisador]

Tonight at class we did the hooked walking cane (not the straight walking cane of Savate or Baritsu, as indicated in the current issue of JAMA, Vol. 14 No. 4, but one with a curved handle). As a one-time change-of-pace, it was fun. But as a rule, I find that most people who added the walking cane to their arts (e.g., those in the Korean martial arts) did so as a way of marketing martial arts to the elderly despite the fact that they didn't teach Tai Chi. I know of no case of an elderly person using martial arts techniques and a hooked walking cane to defeat an aggressor; and in my experience, most who teach the hooked cane focus on techniques that use its hook rather than its range. The latter seems to me the more important advantage of the device. I also feel that many who teach it don't appreciate that some of the locks and hooks they're using have the potential to cause serious training injries, such as the repeated neck throws.

I think an FMA practitioner should periodically play with a cane, an axe handle, a flashlight, a broomstick, a rolled-up magazine, etc., to gain familiarity with the stick-like implement. But I am suspicious of those who market cane training to the elderly. Is this training based on firm ground? Is it clearly valuable? I am not yet fully convinced.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Arnisador,

I think that walking cane training, whether straight or hooked has a lot of value. Certainly more elderly people use walking canes but I feel like you that probably not alot of them are going to use them for defense or are going to learn to use them for defense. I just teach it as one more tool to use and really it is treated the same as all blunt tools. You are exactly right in that the length of the cane and using that length is far more important than the locking techniques. However having the ability to use the locking and trapping techniques can be a big advantage if the distance is closed. When I do teach elderly groups of people I definately teach them the value of the cane starting with striking using the length and then the locking aspects as well. However, I like you do not think it should be solely marketed as a martial skill for the elderly but as a skill that every martial practitioner should learn.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[lhommedieu]

Tuhon William McGrath has a walking stick video that accompanies his classes on walking stick; I find that it works quite well with a heavy crook cane.

Rick Faye also has a walking stick video; although I haven't seen it, I've been told that it's influenced by his training with Tuhon McGrath and Danny Inosanto.

One of my teachers, Bill Schettino, has a cane curriculum that includes the use of the cane as a single hand weapon, a two-hand weapon (both hands at one end), and hand at each end (pugil stick fashion). With respect to pugil stick technique, significant use is made of the crook to hit, and the end of the crook to hook and gouge.

It is worth noting that if the end is re-cut on a bevel to form a "fish hook" angle, it catches the opponent more easily and more painfully, in my opinion.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Marvin Diem]

Any recomendations on a sturdy self-defense cane?

[lhommedieu]

Cane Masters canes are pretty heavy, and the ones made from hickory are durable. However, they're a bit expensive. The "unfinished" one on the top of the following URL is relatively inexpensive ($25):

https://canemasters.com/full_dim.html

I got mine at a county fair for $5. Local woodworkers who know how to steam-bend wood are probably your best source.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Marvin,

For practice I just go with rattan canes most of the time. You can
find hooked ones at any drugstore selling canes or at the big
martial art supplier like Century of AWMA. For straght canes to
practice with I just cut a three foot piece of rattan and place
a rubber chair stopper on it and walla, I have a straight cane to
work with. If I use Heavy wood then I like a nice hickory cane
and their are several people out there with good products but
some can be pretty expensive. I usually use Ed Martins canes
because they are not to expensive, you can fine them here
on his website at: http://northampton1.com/dojo/links/ ! His
canes are price right and last a long, long time.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am sorry the above link to Ed Martin's Homepage is not
working he must be in the middle of some sort of
reorganization. When I get the new link I will post it.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Sheldon Bedell]

Ii think it depends onwhat you call "old". If a person in their 50's is disabled he/she may be able to efend with a cane, however if the person is in their 70's they nay not be able to do much no matter how much training they have.
Much of the hooked training is well beyond the ability of a 70 year old to preform with any strength or precission.

[arnisador]

Yes, I agree. If they haven't trained for most of their lives, while starting training will help, it can only do so much. A 50 year old is a different matter.

[Sheldon Bedell]

lol being well above the 50 mark I agree but then I have practiced a few years.
I see people in the nuseing home I work at who in their mid 60's might get some use out of training but the ones I see on the street who are in their 70's or older I doubt that they would be helped much if they trained the rest of their lives

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are always exceptions to every rule. I have a student
who is slightly over 80 years old and he moves and acts like
a very young sixty year old. He has strength and knows how
to move his weight to apply techniques. Certainly in the right
circumstances he would have an opportunity to make something
work. I also know people in their fifties who would not be able to
make the training work given their attributes and physical and mentl skills.
So there are many variables in place and we as teachers need to
just do our best to help people out to the best of their abilities.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Sheldon Bedell]

we as teachers need to
just do our best to help people out to the best of their abilities.


that is what it is supposed to be all about.

Glad to hear you have a student in his eighties. You should post a picture of the gentelman as inspiration for all the young folks

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'll see what I can do about the picture. Yes he is definately
an inspiration and an enthusiastic martial practitioner.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[ap Oweyn]

I knew a bando practitioner in his 20s who specialized in the cane. He'd fallen off a mountain some years earlier and done some pretty profound damage to his feet. At the time I knew him, he could walk without the cane. But generally kept it with him because it had, through necessity and training, become such an extension.

[Sheldon Bedell]

The cane has become popularised (sp) in the last decade and you can see many people doing fancy cane forms and techniques these days. However most of the forms are useless to the avarage peson as a self defence and way beyond what most people over 60 could use for self defence. Did I say more flash than practicality?
That being said I feel the came is a most over looked part of training. Most of us use short sticks (inder 3 foot) or knives. But we do not often walk down the street with these sticks and hardly ever withthe knife drawn. The cane is there in your hand already when you walk with it and be it decrotive and fancy or plain it is a weapon that has many uses.
Why we do not practice more withit is beyond me except that the arts we practice where developed for other weapons

sorry folks for any spelling mistakes today

[Kenpodoc]

Ii think it depends onwhat you call "old". If a person in their 50's is disabled he/she may be able to efend with a cane, however if the person is in their 70's they nay not be able to do much no matter how much training they have.
Much of the hooked training is well beyond the ability of a 70 year old to preform with any strength or precission.
I think that you underestimate a lot of 70 year olds. A lot of the farmers around here could whup the average suburban 20 year old empty handed and a cane would just add to the injury.

Jeff

[arnisador]

It's always dangerous to generalize! But when I think of those who carry a cane because they need one, I do wonder how much martial utility it would have for them.

[Kenpodoc]

It's always dangerous to generalize! But when I think of those who carry a cane because they need one, I do wonder how much martial utility it would have for them.
You're thinking of the frail elderly. There are a large number of otherwise robust people with bad hips or legs fror whom a cane enhances mobility.

Jeff

[arnisador]

Yes, I am thinking of a certain case. You're right of course that there are others who are disabled but still strong.

Is there a good example of someone using a cane for self-defense? I don't recall such a story in the news. It would be great to have a clear example!

[lhommedieu]

My memory's hazy - but I think that there is a story in Dan Inosanto's book about an elderly eskrimador (Max Seriamento?) taking on a couple of guys in a park with a cane.

Then there's the story of Sijo Emperado taking out a large jerk in a supermarket who was harrassing him - but I think the guy got a thumb in the eye for his trouble. The story goes that Sijo was using a walker at the time due to his heart condition - and the judge dismissed the case due to the fact that he looked frail and elderly...

As the saying goes, "Don't poke the bear."

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Marvin Diem]

Just got an oak cane from these folks for $10 plus ship.
http://stores.ebay.com/Wilderness-Walkers

[JohnJ]

The little that I have shared with individuals that rely on walking canes are:

-Double supported grips for bayonet methods (thrusts)
-Checks/push-offs with center of cane
-Rowing strokes using both ends.

Additionally, I encouraged them to transfer grip to bottom in order to strike with the curved end for more weighted impact.

The obvious reason for using the cane is lack of balance and weakness due to injuries or age. Therefore, I relied on a few things like teaching range to maximize effectiveness of strikes and built up their repetitions.

Quite often these individuals already had a great deal of tenacity so it took little encouragement.

John J

[Far Walkers Moon]

Why do I see so many posts about a cane with a curved handle, dosen't anyone use a "T" grip or an "L" grip on canes any more.

[Sheldon Bedell]

I do in fact almost none of my canes have a curved handle

[JohnJ]

Why do I see so many posts about a cane with a curved handle, dosen't anyone use a "T" grip or an "L" grip on canes any more.

A lot of what has been described as techniques and strategies can be applied to curved/hook, "T" or "L" grips. Why not share your experience with such grips?

John J

[Sheldon Bedell]

I have never liked the curved type of handle after haveing my hand slip off one in bad weather. Ok maybe I wasn't holding on tight enough but its a real bummer when you go to place your hand on it and bear weight and your hand just slides around that curve and you fall on your face. I have never had that happen with a "T" or "L" top/grip

[Marvin Diem]

Hi all. I have been playing a little bit with my cane, using it in a two handed fashion as an uppercut enhancer, one hand near the crook and the other hand a little farther than halfway down the length of the cane and following that up with bayonet type thrusts. I think that these two moves would work well for someone who may have balance problems, because the arms don’t move to far out from the body.

[arnisador]

I mentioned this story in another post (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?p=3089#post3089) regarding makeshift weapons and planes from a former Dulles screener (registration may be required):

'Security' Without Sense

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021701737.html)

Even now, I can scarcely believe some of the absurdities I experienced as a screener. Not long before I quit, for example, a teenage girl was flying to Australia for a field hockey tournament. She was stopped at my checkpoint and told that she could not carry her stick onto the aircraft.

I believe in prudent security, but the field hockey stick presented no realistic threat to passengers or crew. It was too late for the stick to be checked, so the girl had to send it Federal Express to Australia and hope for the best.

Ironically, less than an hour later, a rather large man with a cane passed through my checkpoint without a problem. The cane had a heavy brass grip, I remember, because I had to hand it back to the man after he passed through the metal detector.

I'm not saying that the TSA should have confiscated the man's cane; it shouldn't have. What I am saying is that the TSA's policies regarding what is acceptable to carry onto an airplane mock security rather than enhance it.

[arnisador]

Hidden in Cane (http://www.riograndesun.com/)

It looks like the contents of this URL change weekly. The story was on the front page of the 16 March 2006 Rio Grande Sun, a weekly NM paper:


Hidden in Cane

Artist arrested for attack; police report
incident happened after drug use

By Mike Gisick
SUN Staff Writer
A self-employed Española artist is under arrest for the senseless stabbing of a man who was asleep on a recliner after smoking crack cocaine all night.
David Lee Maes, 45, also known as David Lee Duran, allegedly used a cane with a knife blade concealed at the end to stab a passed-out Ernest Paul Thomas at about 8 a.m. March 4 inside another man's El Llano Road trailer, according to police.
Two witnesses told police that Maes picked up the cane after some knives he was playing with were taken away. Maes appeared to be on drugs, those witnesses said.
Thomas had earlier entered the living room of the trailer and, complaining that he did not feel well because he had been smoking crack cocaine, went to sleep in the chair, according to court documents.
Thomas was in a deep sleep when Maes entered the house. According to the witnesses, Maes pulled apart the cane to reveal the knife blade and began looking at the sleeping Thomas.
"David looked at Ernest and then stabbed him in the stomach area for no apparent reason," the witnesses said, according to the court documents.
One of the witnesses said he immediately asked Maes why he stabbed Thomas.
"Stab who? What!" Maes reportedly replied.
Maes was then thrown out of the house and ran away, the court documents state.
Maes pleaded not guilty in magistrate court March 10 to a single count of aggravated battery. He is being held on a $10,000 cash-only bond.
Thomas was flown to the University of New Mexico Hospital where he is recovering, police said.

[arnisador]

Man, 82, smacks attacker with cane (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/bizarre/4537001.html)


An 82-year-old Seattle man whose walking stick was damaged when he struck a younger man who witnesses say had doused him with lighter fluid is getting a replacement cane from the Seattle Police Officers' Guild.

[DAMAG-INC]

During one of the Kali Sundays at the apartment, I pulled out my cane incidentally when I was really searching for a regular rattan stick to swing with at either of my partner Caleb, and since I never really practiced with my cane much, I thought I'd see what comes up as a response to certain angles of attacks that Caleb feeds me. All clips finished in this mix were all first takes[un-rehearsed]. These videos will just push me to remember more of what I can pull for the next ones.... (more (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYHQVVvqC9Q#))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYHQVVvqC9Q



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAqMasrCTw

[lhommedieu]

Looks like fun. Chris Petrilli's DVD series ("Crashing the Lines," "Cutting the Lines," and "Pangamot") has a lot of similar stuff for using the stick as a grappling tool.

I find that since my oak cane is longer and heavier than any of my rattan sticks I generally use it in two ways:

1. At largo range one handed
2. At corto range two-handed (hitting and raking with both ends)

Anyway, thanks for sharing the clips.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[arnisador]

Last year when I took Eskrido from a colleague (http://www.abqmartialarts.com/) of Chris Petrilli (http://www.fmaa.net)'s we did a fair amount of cane work. For Eskrido, it's a natural!