Usefulness of forms?

[Cruentus]

O.K., lets have at it. How many of you think the forms are useless? Useful? Why?

I am just curious to see the different opinions on the matter.

Also, do you teach them, and if so, how? This question is important because Prof. Remy's approach to forms was a bit different then others, so I am wondering how people have decided to teach them in light of this.

Thanks!

Paul

[arnisador]

I assume you mean the empty-hand anyos. I teach them only when forced to do so by my instructor. When I do teach them, I do it in a pretty traditional Karate manner but comment on the freedom to make other interpretations. The stance training adds value to the art, but most of the rest is in conflict with the way arnisadors should move, in my opinion. (Obviously, there are exceptions to this statement!) The gyaku-zuki simply doesn't fit the style of Modern Arnis. When I did Goju-ryu Karate, it fit and I thought it was great. Here, it's a mismatch. The SCJJ fits the art well; but how often did the Professor do anything from the Shotokan other than the occasional front kick? Anyone ever see him do a formal rising block in free flow?

Please understand, I'm a fan of kata. I think they have great value...when they are the backbone of their arts, as in Karate and Kung Fu. I've just started WIng Chun and practice what I know of Sil Lum Tao every day, enthusiastically. The Shotokan kata were a less perfect fit for Tae Kwon Do than for Shotokan, though, and they just do not fit in the FMA.

If it were up to me, I'd drop them, or make them optional for black belts who desire to preserve the art in its original form. I honestly feel they instill habits of punching, blocking, and stepping (all straight-forward linear) that are contrary to good FMA practices.

I have strong feelings on this issue!

[Cruentus]

I am refering to the empty handed Anyo's, mostly. I like the stick anyo's because I believe that they contain blade applications of the art.

As a general principal, though, I hate forms period. So, I don't really do them. Every now and again I'll touch up on them when they are doing them at Flint (FMAC), which is a nice piece of nostalgia. But in general I feel that they have little combative value.

I'd hate to see them lost, though, as they are a part of the art. So I am glad that MA groups preserve them even if I don't personally use them. I like the way the WMAA has standardized them, for example.

On a final note, where I really see the value is with the kids. When training kids (something I don't do but I have an understanding of), one has to take a different approach in that it can't be all about fighting. Forms are a great way for kids to develop coordination, memorization, and overall understanding of body movement.

So, I see value. Just not much as it relates to fighting.

Paul

[arnisador]

I agree that the stick anyos are OK. The second one has a strike that isn't seen much elesewhere in Modern Arnis but is common in many other stick arts, for example. I also agree that the forms have value in teaching kids, but I still feel that if arnis is what one wants to teach them then these forms are not a clear step forward.

As to combative value, I think they work fine in Shotokan where they belong--it's more a mismatch than that the forms themselves are not useful. I believe in kata training...in a proper context.

[Sheldon Bedell]

One way to look at it they are another way of doing things, we always don't have a stick in our hands. For that reason they should be preserved.
Not knowing all of them it is hard for me to give a better answere.

[Rich Parsons]

I teach the forms.

They are part of the history of the art.

I think they are a way to teach basics and body mechanics to people. Not the way I prefer, yet, sometimes it might be the method for the right student to understand hip movement, and body placement and or weight.

As to Combat practicality, I would have to rate it low.

I do it, mostly because it might be the one thing that clicks for someone, and GM taught them.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well even though I learned most of them a long, long, long time
ago I have tried my best to forget them. I do think with
some people that they can help them learn but really that you
can teach those same basics by just practicing the techniques
individually or in a multiple technique manner. Rich, you are right
on that it might help some people in getting their hips, body
placement, etc. in the right spot. I can also see some value with
them when teaching the kiddies. However, for myself I believe
the benefits do not outweight the amount of time spent on them!
Good question as always Paul!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Marvin Diem]

Good post, I remember a time when it was thought that forms were integral to learning to fight. I was as loud a proponent as anyone back then. I’m sure Rich and Brian both can remember watching Ian K. work his mojo on a form, he was a sight to see! I no longer feel forms help in combat. Exercise or moving meditation, most definitely! My point is that reflection on and questioning of an art and why something is done is a good thing. Don’t be bound by the art, the art is your starting point! Keep the discussions going!

[Blotan Hunka]

I think forms are like going to the library, just because you read book doesnt mean you know how to really DO something, but the knowledge cant but help you right?

[arnisador]

I think forms are like going to the library, just because you read book doesnt mean you know how to really DO something, but the knowledge cant but help you right?

I suppose...but I feel the anyos, done Shotokan-style, interfere with good FMA movements. They fit well in Karate but work against the principles of the FMAs. Of course, some people do them in a more fluid, FMA style, which changes things! That's great, but it's not how I saw the Professor doing them, or how he had me teach them at the camps. He definitely wanted Shotokan style taught, then he encouraged people to make them their own. Doing them Shotokan-style is not in keeping with what I think of FMA. Doing them more fluidly makes a difference...but I do not believe it's what he intended.

[lilla_tigern]

I think empty hand sequenses will help you get a flow, but only in the beginning. It also will provide your body with strengt and stronger joints if you do forms. Forms are like a library were you find techniques, and in free drills and sparring you learn how to apply them. At least this i how I trained in chinese martial arts. With weapons it is the same.

[KrissOfSweden]

personally i am not a anyo guy, wich is very sad for me, because i want to do them as good as i can, but the weaponless anyos is not my best side. But i do feel they teach students to train alone,if you can do a prederment anyo... you will probaly will be able to to all your things alone without a partner. It's always good to train with somebody, but sometimes there aren't any to play with, then it's good to be able to train by yourself, and that's what i believe the anyos kan teach us to. do i make sense or am i talk nonsense?

[arnisador]

That does make sense. It's good to have stuff to work on your own. Of course, there's always beating on spare tires with your sticks, too!

[KrissOfSweden]

That does make sense. It's good to have stuff to work on your own. Of course, there's always beating on spare tires with your sticks, too!

yeah i would love to have some tires at home to hit at, but i am not sure if my neigbours would love as much as i would.. :P
But i was thinking more of a long with the preset that are in the modern arnis system or the trapping hands part...

[eskrimador]

Training FMA here in RP,specific to MA practitioners. we`re using Anyo or forms as primary teaching patterns for students, particularly on primary and secondary schools and adult beginners, to orient them on stability and formal stances. And Anyo is the basis to create ones individual Sayaw or fighting dance as part of aesthetics Arnis and for forms competitions.

And practicality, if one is tired of practising with partner or the inavailability of having a partner, and presenting FMA to the public, the use of Anyo is important.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I do not teach anyo's. Not that they are not an effective way of transmitting technique. Instead I teach what I label a "Movement Form" where the practitioner moves around utilizing different techniques in the air with no set preplanned pattern. Similar in many ways to a free flowing shadow boxing kickboxer or boxer. This way the movement form can last as long as the individual practitioner wants to practice. That is just my take.