Should Modern Arnis be Preserved, or Evolved?

[arnisador]

The Professor left us a lot of material in the art that he created and promoted. That raises the question...should the art be evolved, or should it be preserved as the Professor left it to us? It was certainly continually evolving in the Professor's lifetime, and the name 'modern' would seem to imply that it should remain current and useful...yet, with single and double stick, some knife and sword, shotokan katas, and the small circle form of jujutsu, there's enough material in there for anyone!

The idea of preserving the Professor's teachings seems respectful to me, and if the art continues to evolve then perhaps in several generations it'll fail to resemble his art at all. That seems a shame. Yet, the idea of simply freezing it as is doesn't seem in line with the Professor's philosophy.

What's the right thing to do?

[Sheldon Bedell]

Having never had the experience of meeting the man I can only go by what I have been told and read about him, That being said I think he would want the core of marteial to remain the same while allowing his students and future generations to keep the system evolving . He seemed to make and allow small changes while he was alive (or am I wrong about this)

[Cruentus]

I say do both. I am glad that people are out there preserving certain things so that I don't feel that I have too, and I can focus on what I want. I don't have to worry about teaching the system either, as there are plenty doing that. I am also glad to see when people are evolving things and making it there own.

So, I think that both is good.

Paul

[Brian R. VanCise]

Preserve but also progress. Do not be stagnant! I do not
feel that it would be in line with his teachings to just preserve
what he taught and not incorporate anything new. No to
follow his path one would have to keep progressing and
challenging yourself to find new and innovative ways to
work into your Modern Arnis.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctivereponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctivereponsetraining.com)

[arnisador]

He seemed to make and allow small changes while he was alive (or am I wrong about this)

Yes, not only did he make changes to the system--additions and changes of emphasis--but he encouraged great freedom of expression in his students, who came from many backgrounds.

I hate to see anything lost, and the academic in me wants to preserve the past--yet, it seems clear to me that further development of the art is essential.

[ap Oweyn]

My current guro is from Modern Arnis. He tends to describe GM Presas' approach as a way of cataloging and preserving styles of FMA. So when he sees something in my Doce Pares/Inosanto practice that he hasn't seen before, he tries to document it in his practice.

That being the case, I'd guess that his approach to MA is more preservative than evolutionary. I think the preservation is a high priority for him. And I can certainly respect that.


Stuart

[Blotan Hunka]

I dont wear traditional clothes or have Anting Anting tattooed on me, so why should we worry about preserving techniques?

Add what works and take away what does not.

[KrissOfSweden]

I think it's kind of sad that you should take away certain techniques just because it is not what "works" today..I believe that there most be away to keep the core of the art and stil evolve it. It maybe take some time to figure out how it's going to be integrated in the art, but i think it should take the time...

[JPR]

I hate to see anything lost, and the academic in me wants to preserve the past--yet, it seems clear to me that further development of the art is essential.

These goals are not necessarily exclusive. You just have to be organized as to how you present the material.

I have an instructor that does a good job of this in Jun Fan / JKD. He will tell you, “now this is what was taught originally”, or “this was not a part of the original Jun Fan, but was added later from shoot wrestling (or what ever).”

This way, your art adapts without loosing its core.

Jerry

[ap Oweyn]

I think it's a question of personal priority. Are you more interested in the style? Or in yourself? And I don't mean that to be a loaded question. I'd say personally that I'm more self-interested. In other words, the style is important in so far that it helps me organize my work and provides me with tools. Beyond that, I'm not too worried about it.

That doesn't make me much of a loyalist. But there you have it.


Stuart

[Sheldon Bedell]

If you dont keep and use what has been taught befor what is there to teach except your own imagination.
I'm not saying every little thing should be taught by everyone but then again why not These things are what made the art what it is today. Go forward and add to them but dont just ignor that they exsisted. They may not be your favorite thing to do and you may not be good at a certian thing but that dosen't mean your student wont be

[ap Oweyn]

If you dont keep and use what has been taught befor what is there to teach except your own imagination.
I'm not saying every little thing should be taught by everyone but then again why not These things are what made the art what it is today. Go forward and add to them but dont just ignor that they exsisted. They may not be your favorite thing to do and you may not be good at a certian thing but that dosen't mean your student wont be

True. But I don't really view my role as teacher to be repository of everything I experienced in FMA. I see my role as passing on what I view as "best practices." I can't convey everything. So I convey what I consider the most useful. Granted it's the most useful to me. But I still think that's a better use of our training time than my trying to share an encyclopediac knowledge of the style.


Stuart

[KrissOfSweden]

True. But I don't really view my role as teacher to be repository of everything I experienced in FMA. I see my role as passing on what I view as "best practices." I can't convey everything. So I convey what I consider the most useful. Granted it's the most useful to me. But I still think that's a better use of our training time than my trying to share an encyclopediac knowledge of the style.


Stuart

I believe as a instructor in any style you should be versatile and not just have the things that is the right for them(me), because everyone is diffrent, some people can't do what i can do and i can't do some things that other people can do. So that is my task as an instructor to give my student the knowledge to do what fits them the best. Of course there will allways be techniques that will lie close the heart, but that doesn't mean that it will be my students favorit techniuques...This is how I see the instructor roll...

[ap Oweyn]

I believe as a instructor in any style you should be versatile and not just have the things that is the right for them(me), because everyone is diffrent, some people can't do what i can do and i can't do some things that other people can do. So that is my task as an instructor to give my student the knowledge to do what fits them the best. Of course there will allways be techniques that will lie close the heart, but that doesn't mean that it will be my students favorit techniuques...This is how I see the instructor roll...

That approach does, of course, involve you teaching things that you're not great at. Just something to think about.


Stuart

[lilla_tigern]

That approach does, of course, involve you teaching things that you're not great at. Just something to think about.


Stuart

It is the same approach of training my old instructor had:P This kind of teaching make complete martial artist when they will train at things the usually won't because they don't like them.

SO TRAIN HARD AT EVERYTHING, that might not be fun every time but fore me it is funny:P It's like a challenge=)

[KrissOfSweden]

That approach does, of course, involve you teaching things that you're not great at. Just something to think about.
Stuart

Yes that's true, you can't be great at everything, but you can be good at the things your bad at and great with things you like. We are always going to have prefrence of things, but i don't want to neglect the things I am not so good at, if I am bad at something i really try to work on these things to be a better practioner and I hope that my student to will be verstile, they may not use everything I tought them but they know it and they can "take it out" when they need to.

[ap Oweyn]

That's fair enough. I'm not advocating paring down your teachings to solely the things you excel at. At the same time, I don't feel compelled to pass down the anyos I had to learn, for example, because I don't think that they're an optimal teaching method. On the one hand, I can respect the drive to preserve a style, particularly for the benefit of a student whose strengths may differ from your own. On the other, I maintain that part of the role of a teacher is to make informed decisions about the best way to convey what he knows to the next generation.


Stuart

[kuàizi]

What I think about preserving modern arnis is hard to do. If we say preserve, it's like putting a caged book and rarely to be open or read. If indeed the art will be preserved, what will happen to the students of Prof. Remy Presas? It should not be preserved.

Evolution. Since we all know that there are great similarities to Balintawak, it should continue to refine the and look for more things to gain either be in scientific way or traditional.

In addition, I wouldn't like to be called by other system that my art is no longer practiced because it is PRESERVED. Thanks.

Peace out.

[Rich Parsons]

My Plans are to Preserve what I was taught. Teach what I was taught in that process.

I also will investigate, or handle new situations as they arise or thought of.

If it is preservation I would most likely say, I remember learning this from Remy or Jim or Jeff or Joe. If it something I put together from basics or singles, I would say this is the single that could be modified to handle this here. And I would present it as such. If for some reason I am able to execute a techinique and reproduce it for myself and then teach it, I will explain what my influences were, and how they effected what is being taught. I would always try to present it in as truthful a manner as possible so the student would know where it came from including myself. This does not mean that someone else could not have learned elsewhere or been taught it elsewhere either.

Just my random thoughts here on this subject this afternoon.

[arnisador]

In addition, I wouldn't like to be called by other system that my art is no longer practiced because it is PRESERVED. Thanks.


I agree. On the other hand, Im glad that someone is preserving iaido, or naginatado, event though they're now impractical. I have mixed feelings on the matter!

[Boar Man]

I saw this thread a while back and wanted to respond to it just took me a while to do it, I hope people might still want to comment on it.

To be honest I believe it needs to be preserved, and I know it will continue to evolve as well, as the students from the last generation get exposed to teachers of the older generations.

Students like myself who were exposed and studied Modern arnis in the Mid to late 90's saw and learned a diferent Modern Arnis than the students in the 80's to 90's here in the states. Likewise i think the students in the 60's-70's in the Philippines learned a different Modern Arnis to what we learned even more removed. So I believe that as we as students of Modern Arnis seek out instruction from these other instructors our understanding of the art will grow. As we grow we make new and different connections within the art and we evolve (grow) in our art beyond what we might have learned from GM Remy. Yet it is still Modern Arnis.

When GM Remy was alive he exposed all of us to different material each year at his camps and we continued to grow in skill and in knowledge. But when he died (suddenly) it forced us as student and instructors to now really look at and examine what he taught us and it forced growth within us and within his organizations as well.

In 2002 I went to the Winter camp in TX that featured the Masters of Tapi Tapi (the MoTTs). Now I saw basically the same material that I had seen with GM remy for the past several years but since they were teaching it was really explained much better. Granted they were not as spectacular as GM Remy but they did have a good understanding of the system and the priciples involved and I got a lot out of it. Same with seeing Dan Anderson, Dieter, Kelly Worden, Dr. Remy Jr., Bambit Dulay, and others. While they were all teaching Modern Arnis they all taught differently and showed different aspects of the art. And that forces growth but the art is still preserved.

[Boar Man]

Now evolution in the sense that I add or take away things from Modern Arnis and mix it with other things I believe is good but yet I think it can determental to the art.

I agree that on a personnel level if I want to take this or that and work on it for my own personnel growth that's great. But in teaching and passing it on as Modern Arnis than I think you do a disservice to yourself and the art.

For an example of Evolution, I'll use Hock Hochheim. Hock trained with both GM Remy, GM Ernesto and some in JKDC. But the main influences were GM Remy and GM Ernesto. So back in early 94 when I hooked up with him his program was based on Presas Arnis (a combination of both Remy's and Ernesto's systems). Then as he introduced more of his material from other sources it started to shift to Combat Arnis and then it went to his SDMS and later morphed into part of his Achipeligo Combatives program and later still into the CQC. But while it was going through these changes he kept some of his old material but it evolved into including material from his MP days, his LEO, other stick and knife systems etc. etc. then into long gun and pistol. It no longer resembles anything to do with GM Remy or GM Ernesto's systems.

Now Hock from the begining made no bones about it that the individual was more important than the system and he wasn't a historian or a preservationist and he had no interest in not adding what he thought best. Or what he thought the public the people paying to see him wanted or what they needed. This is true evolution.

Semi evolution is a sense what I have done where while I have documented as best I could GM Remy's and Ernesto's (Hock's, Inosanto's, Hartsell's and anyone I've ever seen etc. etc.) systems or what they taught me. So when I began teaching I laid out a combination of the two systems and included much of the drills that Hock had us do in the old days that fit well within those systems and teach that material. And if needed I could teach what GM Remy taught me, what GM Ernesto taught me, or Hock or anyone. But I give credit where credit is due as in this is from Remy or Ernesto or Hock.

Preservation is to keep the art as it practiced when the founder was alive. Again take Modern Arnis, I could choose to preserve Modern Arnis and only teach the drill progressions, the techniques, in the way and manner in which I saw Remy perform them. And if I were to teach a Modern Arnis program than that is what I would do. If I were to say that I was teaching Modern Arnis again this is what I would do. I would not teach Guro Dan Inosanto's JKC kali mix and add it to a puesdo Modern Anris curriculmn and call it Modern Arnis just because a slight majority of what I teach would be Modern Arnis, or because I fell out of favor with Guro dan and fell in favor with GM Remy.

Submitted with respect
Mark

[Palusut]

I believe as well that Modern Arnis needs to be preserved as well as progression made to it as well.

[Alakd'an]

This is an excellent question and one that has many answers. I for one have had the honor of being in several seminars and a few camps of GM Remy Presas.
My first experience was in the spring of 1980 in Petoskey Michigan where the Professor gave a weekend seminar on Modern Arnis. I personally never heard of Filipino Martial Arts up to that time, and there was no one teaching Modern Arnis anywhere that I knew of. (Especially in Northern Michigan)
But what I saw in 1980 was definately not the same as what I saw in 1993. I believe that Modern Arnis has to evlove just as it evolved with the Professor. You definately see a different Modern Arnis in the Phillipines than you do in the U.S.
Each person training eventually has their unique perspective and their own talents that bring out certain aspects of Modern Arnis they may emphasize over other aspects. I don't believe there is a right or wrong approach to this question.
There are some core aspects of the Professors Art that make it recognizable as Modern Arnis to the observer. But, I believe that we can find "the art within your art" and "make it your own" within the general concepts of Modern Arnis. This is just my 2 cents to a very interesting question.
Ben Harrison

[Rocky]

This make know sence to me ! How can something be preserved when it's very nature is to evolve??? It is not called Traditional Arnis, it is Called Modern, so that which was taught 2 years ago can not be "Modern" unless it evolves.


From the "Book of Rock" .......He who makes Evolution his Tradition is a student wtih no limitations!!

Rocky

[arnisador]

How can something be preserved when it's very nature is to evolve??? It is not called Traditional Arnis, it is Called Modern

This does make sense! Still, with no single person at the top of Modern Arnis any more, it also means that in a generation or two everyone's Modern Arnis could be quite different. That may be for the best for the individual practitioner, but I lament the loss of a sense of community.

[Rocky]

This does make sense! Still, with no single person at the top of Modern Arnis any more, it also means that in a generation or two everyone's Modern Arnis could be quite different. That may be for the best for the individual practitioner, but I lament the loss of a sense of community.

Well the way I look at it is, the very nature of Modern Arnis and the way Professor taught it makes it an art that doesn't need a top man. In fact their are a number of top men, each teaching their art of Modern Arnis as given to them by Professor and developed by them personally.

I think you just have to look at the various heads of MA, if you Like Master Andersons, or Master Hartman, or Master Wards, or any one of the other heads of MA, then that is who you go with, and eventually you may find that you end up training a little bit with all of us.


Rocky

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Good to see you here Rocky!
:cheers:

[JohnJ]

it also means that in a generation or two everyone's Modern Arnis could be quite different. That may be for the best for the individual practitioner, but I lament the loss of a sense of community.

As an instructor, evolution is a necessity. And if you are dedicated it is a natural tendency. No matter what system you promote, you must always seek to improve on it whether it is in regards to a teaching approach, training methodology or whatever. However, the core principles must remain in tact for they are what drives all the techniques. Additionally there must remain some sort of integrity. Unfortunately integrity in many organizations is the first to go.

The loss in the community or intertribal bickering is useless and usually a result of one's selfishness or ego. This poor character and attitude trickles down to those who are blindly loyal to that particular individual. This is seen everywhere and probably won't change.

JohnJ

[Pat OMalley]

Preserve the name and the memory of the late GM Presas, but you as an individual owe it to your self to evolve both your art and yourself.

You can stick to the core syllabus and still evolve, use your syllabus as a skelleton if you like but just because it say's in the syllabus you must do this technique or that technique does not mean you have to look exactely as your instructor does when applying the technique, this for the individual is difficult. We are all different both in our approach and in how we apply things and I am sure the late GM Remy would have been the first to tell you all that. After all was it not the late GM Remy who used to always say "It's all the same".

In other words, if it works it's right, if it's does not work it's wrong.

Best regards

Pat

[Rocky]

Good to see you here Rocky!
:cheers:

Hey Tim,

Yeah I haven't log in in probably over a year in fact I had to get a new Pasword thingy.

Rocky

[Rich Parsons]

Preserve:

The Concepts
The Techinques
The Basics


Grow and evolve by using the Basics and Concepts and Techniques in new places as new circumstances arise.

[Rocky]

OK Tim now I am confused!!!! I thought this was the Martial talk site, its no wonder my password didn't work.....DAH!!!!! I guess maybe I did take one to many shots to the head!!!


Rocky

[arnisador]

We're affiliated with MartialTalk, but a separate registration is needed!

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[sneha]

yeah y not,,,,,,,,,He must be preserved and involved

[jwinch2]

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/necromancer.htm

[arnisador]

Nothing wrong with a little well-intended thread necromancy, but this was just a spammer!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin