MMA vs FMA? Systema?

[Pitboss 306]

I love 20 year old experts on forums. guys like these who know it all about martial arts....

The Matt, The Myth, The Legend (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=10365270)
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theres no use in training any individual muscle, if your not doing compound lifts, your not exercising

pavel's strength training principles are miles above and beyond anything out there now

Don't even get me started on the "MMA is not real fighting" thing, maybe its not, but theres no better way to train for real life altercations, take any rbsd fighter, or anybody that doesn't regularly spar and put him in a fight with an MMA fighter, or anybody else that spars, and not point fighting, thats not sparring, a real fight, you can claw the eyes and hit the neck, and the MMA fighter will win

You can't rely on any weapon you haven't trained in a dynamic setting, thats why BJJ dominated the original UFC's and the gracies dominated 50 years before that.





I responded:

MMA is Sport, not Combat. While many may be well conditioned combative athletes or expert technicians, MMA 'fighters' are far from the warriors many claim that are.

No More than a Kendo player is a sword fighter.

It is THE common confusion of armchair experts and fighters of limited experience that 'MMA IS FIGHTING". Mixed Martial Arts has degenerated from combat science into a sport governed by rules and the limitations that go hand in hand with commercialization and safetyconcerns. Combat training and realistic self defence does not consider the safety of a would be rapist. They are geared to Negate A Threat.

Seeing as how a person will fight on the street as he trains in the gym, limited training=limited skills.

Limited skills=limited fighting=incomplete system of defence.

MMA in it's quest to be a professional SPORT, has outlawed many valid martial techniques. Banned groin strikes and eye gouges are obvious. However, if those are the limit of your Realistic Self Defence knowledge, I'd ask for your money back after the seminar.

Also prohibited are small joint Wrist and finger locking, deliberate striking (or hard locks) to joints such as the elbow or knee, downward elbow strikes to back, elbow point striking period, Striking to back side or front of neck/throat, Spinal striking, and head butts.

Banning Kicking to the head while on the ground (even when both players are ground fighting) is laughable to even start considering in a real fight.

Incidentally... a carotid strike WILL drop a person. Regardless how many arteries flow to and from the brain.

Until these limitations are recognized and adressed in MMA as a system, it will be not be an option for "realistic self defence". In fact, it hinders public understanding of real functional combative arts in North America.

www.myspace.com/stickfighter306 (http://www.myspace.com/stickfighter306)

He goes on to illuminate:

"i have an instructor who has spent over thirty years in the filipino arts, but he now trains systema over them unless hes asked to teach the filipino system.

he puts systema ahead of the filipino arts because of the difference in training philosophies, i highly recommend you check it out."


Anybody know about this "systema"?

[selfcritical]

I love 20 year old experts on forums. guys like these who know it all about martial arts....

The Matt, The Myth, The Legend (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=10365270)
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Send Message (http://mail.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=mail.message&friendID=10365270&Mytoken=A4F615F9-D64A-407B-B6E4B133EF11E96E22533628) http://x.myspace.com/images/button_quote.jpg (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100569775&page=1&EntryID=37483573&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=17&lastpagesent=0&Mytoken=B06ED091-F3F0-45AA-9D86F746BE4892C022490377#) http://x.myspace.com/images/button_reply.jpg (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100569775&page=1&EntryID=37483573&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=17&lastpagesent=0&Mytoken=B06ED091-F3F0-45AA-9D86F746BE4892C022490377#) Posted: 21/06/2007 is the bi-cep extension different from the bicep curl?

theres no use in training any individual muscle, if your not doing compound lifts, your not exercising

pavel's strength training principles are miles above and beyond anything out there now

Don't even get me started on the "MMA is not real fighting" thing, maybe its not, but theres no better way to train for real life altercations, take any rbsd fighter, or anybody that doesn't regularly spar and put him in a fight with an MMA fighter, or anybody else that spars, and not point fighting, thats not sparring, a real fight, you can claw the eyes and hit the neck, and the MMA fighter will win

You can't rely on any weapon you haven't trained in a dynamic setting, thats why BJJ dominated the original UFC's and the gracies dominated 50 years before that.





I responded:

MMA is Sport, not Combat. While many may be well conditioned combative athletes or expert technicians, MMA 'fighters' are far from the warriors many claim that are.

No More than a Kendo player is a sword fighter.

It is THE common confusion of armchair experts and fighters of limited experience that 'MMA IS FIGHTING". Mixed Martial Arts has degenerated from combat science into a sport governed by rules and the limitations that go hand in hand with commercialization and safetyconcerns. Combat training and realistic self defence does not consider the safety of a would be rapist. They are geared to Negate A Threat.

Seeing as how a person will fight on the street as he trains in the gym, limited training=limited skills.

Limited skills=limited fighting=incomplete system of defence.

MMA in it's quest to be a professional SPORT, has outlawed many valid martial techniques. Banned groin strikes and eye gouges are obvious. However, if those are the limit of your Realistic Self Defence knowledge, I'd ask for your money back after the seminar.

Also prohibited are small joint Wrist and finger locking, deliberate striking (or hard locks) to joints such as the elbow or knee, downward elbow strikes to back, elbow point striking period, Striking to back side or front of neck/throat, Spinal striking, and head butts.

Banning Kicking to the head while on the ground (even when both players are ground fighting) is laughable to even start considering in a real fight.

Incidentally... a carotid strike WILL drop a person. Regardless how many arteries flow to and from the brain.

Until these limitations are recognized and adressed in MMA as a system, it will be not be an option for "realistic self defence". In fact, it hinders public understanding of real functional combative arts in North America.

www.myspace.com/stickfighter306 (http://www.myspace.com/stickfighter306)

He goes on to illuminate:

"i have an instructor who has spent over thirty years in the filipino arts, but he now trains systema over them unless hes asked to teach the filipino system.

he puts systema ahead of the filipino arts because of the difference in training philosophies, i highly recommend you check it out."


Anybody know about this "systema"?

So, as regards to the first paragraph he posted, i'm not sure why an arguement even started. That's not an "MMA vs TMA" arguement. It's stating that full contact fighters will invariably beat people who don't spar or only point spar. This is so obviously true that I can't imagine any one contesting it without dishonesty. Regardless of the art, the ones who train it by beating he hell out of each other will be better fighters than the ones who never make contact. Compound movements ARE better strength training that isolations......which is why most power training in FMA is the former.

As to the rest, it's all just flamebait and I don't see how anything constructive could come from us having a discussion. Systema is discussed elsewhere on the forum, and we know absolutely nothing about his teachers FMA training. He may be completely correct in disregarding it, he may not. None of us is in a position to say anything constructive about it, and I know nothing about how his school trains systema.

[arnisador]

Anybody know about this "systema"?

It's a very soft and free-form Russian martial art, associated with Vlad Vasiliev (http://www.russianmartialart.com/). There's some interesting stuff in it, but from the videos I've seen I am skeptical of their knife defenses.


As to the rest, it's all just flamebait and I don't see how anything constructive could come from us having a discussion.

Yup. That's the Internet for you!

[gagimilo]

I know a thing or two about Systema, being that I've been doing it since 2000. However that does not make me an exert or anything, even though people who attended my classes and seminars seemed to like what I was doing. Anyway... with regards to putting one approach before another (since I'm doing both systema, FMA and MMA, not focusing equally on all of those though), I would say it depends on whom you are teaching, or for what purpose are you training. In my case, Systema gives me most in terms of emotional and intuitive attributes, FMA is most intellectually challenging and reqarding, while MMA gives me the best workout of al three. That is not to say, of course, that any of those completely lacks some of those components, but this the way it works for me.

[GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje Jr]

We have in Moscow now a Pekiti-Tirsia who married to a Russian girl who works with the government of Moscow as technical consultant. He carried with him the authority as the PTK Director for the C I S-Confederation of Independent State of Russia. He was teaching PTK in his off time and he has several serious Russians who wanted to be developed as Stick Fighters.

He was with us during the filming of the Discovery Channel on " Fight Quest"
He had several experiences about the systema as a matter of fact his Fighting team is very strong that he will sponsor a Combat Sports Competition next year against all style of stick fighting specially against the systema.

He just left the Philippines after a two weeks vacation bound to Moscow.

He is representing the Russian Pitbulls based in Moscow. His initial is DF

[GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje Jr]

MMA VS FMA

You cannot compare MMA to FMA.

First MMA donot have the history to authentic that can prove that the art is effective, secondly what is the Philosophy of MMA, what is the technical structure that can be compared to FMA. Maybe to other FMA that is also ala or semi MMA style , it can match but for pure FMA you can forget about it.

2008 Three big Corporations in the Philippines will sponsor the International full contact competitions to test which style is going to be generally accepted as a FMA that will be acceptable as a spectators sports or an FMA that is can qualify to the standard of a true filipino fighting system. This will be held in Manila and the invitations will be sent to all and will be posted in their own web site that is intended for this event. This is the time each style can join and be a part of the big event.

PTK is just verbally invited waiting for the official written invitation. Wait for your invitation.Don't miss it.

[arnisador]

In my case, Systema gives me most in terms of emotional and intuitive attributes, FMA is most intellectually challenging and reqarding, while MMA gives me the best workout of al three. That is not to say, of course, that any of those completely lacks some of those components, but this the way it works for me.


It's good to hear from someone who knows! I know that Systema is relatively technique-free, but how would you compare its knife defenses and knifework to those of FMA?

[GrandTuhon Leo T Gaje Jr]

This is interesting a 30 years FMA instructor went to study Systema and teach Systema.

Will I congratulate him for changing his teaching skill. That means he taught FMA for money not for the Philosophy and the Culture of it.

That means he learned Arnis / Excrima not the true art of kali. That is pardonable because Arnis / Escrima is not Filipino.

If he is disciplined in the real FMA then he understood the true FMA.

[arnisador]

I know a lot of people who have been attracted to Systema's philosophy...but many seem to return to their base art at some point, just with a widened point-of-view!