Knife-to-Knife Tapping.

[arnisador]

Recently I was studying at another instructor's school and we were doing, essentially, Heaven Six. (A slight variant of it, actually.) Then he had us put a knife in the left hand and continue. We were to strike the knives together just as we did the sticks.

I've always had mixed feelings about this. I like doing a sinawali empty-hand to change the range or with one stick and one empty hand for the long-and-short weapon training--many say that using two weapons of dissimilar lengths is one of the hardest skills of all--and in that regard I like this exercise.

But...I really dislike clanking together the blades of the (plastic training) knives. I think it reinforces a bad habit, if one is really thinking of those as a knife. It's one thing to block stick-on-stick, recognizing that in reality one would often want to hit the hand. After all, range and power may make you want to block on the stick sometimes, and besides, the way you hit the stick is essentially how you'd hit the hand. But the blade-to-blade hit with the knife is unlike how you'd use it; you wouldn't block edge-to-edge, and if you were going after the hand you'd want to make a cut, not a strike. A press of the knife can do damage, but it's not the first choice.

I tend to think of the knife as a short stick in that situation, though that still isn't fully satisfactory--I don't think I'd often block a short stick strike like that given the sticks' short length. Yet, the difference in range makes doing the sinawali this way a useful training aid, I feel.

Still, I can't get past thinking that the edge-to-edge striking of the knives just doesn't feel right. I don't practice it like that, myself.

[loki09789]

I tend to think of the knife as a short stick in that situation, though that still isn't fully satisfactory--I don't think I'd often block a short stick strike like that given the sticks' short length. Yet, the difference in range makes doing the sinawali this way a useful training aid, I feel.

Still, I can't get past thinking that the edge-to-edge striking of the knives just doesn't feel right. I don't practice it like that, myself.

Doesn't sound like a practical target to reinforce to me either. Not my system though. I would say that if your going to keep training there, view that knife tapping as a way to develop focus and accuracy with your blade hand. Then you can translate that accuracy to other targets in application/self defense drills.

Some of the Inosanto stuff that I have seen is very 'dancy' and light relative to Modern Arnis, Balintawak and other FMA stick/weapons drills.

I don't think it is bad because speed and loose relaxed motion is a good habit to reinforce. But, the 'danciness' of it reminds me of all those stories about hiding FMA's in ceremonial dances and such.

Have you talked to your instructor about the whys and wherewithalls of tapping knife on knife?

[arnisador]

Not yet. I'm studying there for the Wing Chun Kung Fu and JKD he teaches and taking the FMA primarily because it's included and can only help broaden me. He does teach a lot of stick-locking, much of which has been new to me. The main influences are, if I understand correctly, Dan Inosanto's brand of Kali and Doce Pares, though he also has some Kali Illustrismo, I believe. But for now I'm still playing the good student and giving it a try before I start questioning it. I've just started there and he knows I am an FMA instructor and so I don't want to appear a know-it-all, or to be asking wise guy questions. Yet, I would indeed like to hear his answer! He's quite approachable, so I expect to be able to have such a discussion with him.

[Danny T]

Recently I was studying at another instructor's school and we were doing, essentially, Heaven Six. (A slight variant of it, actually.) Then he had us put a knife in the left hand and continue. We were to strike the knives together just as we did the sticks.

I've always had mixed feelings about this. I like doing a sinawali empty-hand to change the range or with one stick and one empty hand for the long-and-short weapon training--many say that using two weapons of dissimilar lengths is one of the hardest skills of all--and in that regard I like this exercise.

But...I really dislike clanking together the blades of the (plastic training) knives. I think it reinforces a bad habit, if one is really thinking of those as a knife...

Still, I can't get past thinking that the edge-to-edge striking of the knives just doesn't feel right. I don't practice it like that, myself.

I certainly don't know the why's of another's teaching style but here is a thought. Depending on what the level of students are in any class I often have them work the weapon movements first and then slowly add the body angling and footwork. When doing drills in this manner the target and weapon striking will seem a bit odd to someone with a higher level. When the footwork and body positioning is utilized then the targets change due to positional changes because of the footwork, yet the movements are the same. In my way of thinking we utilize forms and drills to work movements, timing and target acquisition. Then we continue on to applications and often the applications appear different than the forms or drills.

Danny T

[arnisador]

Hmmm, that's a thought. The striking though was a strike, not a cut--it would be a hacking motion with the knife. If it was drawn through like a cut it wouldn't have bothered me. But, he could be thinking of adding knife-specific changes later.

[arnisador]

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In this clip Dan Inosanto does an espada y daga sinawali, striking forearms rather than tapping knives. The instructor with whom I studied in NM did do this very exercise and did have us strike forearms on this one, as the high knife strikes were intended as stabs.

[blindside]

To me the siniwali training is for symmetric training, espada y daga is asymetric, I wouldn't really call this a siniwali, but thats my own definition.

Lamont

[arnisador]

I know what you mean--but, I have heard others call it a sinawali. It's a patterned drill, but for me sinawali is really a double stick (or maybe single staff) drill.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Just have one person be the feeder and the other person do the cutting. That works just fine! It essentially makes the drill a one person working on their skills drill but then you can change it up every now and then. That is the simplest variation but there are quite a few that are more complicated and might be hard to explain in writing.

[Silence_sucks]

Perhaps the emphasis is on movement an you are hitting just for the sensation of the hit, because thats what sinawalli is about, two people learning the movement together and getting the sensation of hitting something.

[arnisador]

because thats what sinawalli is about, two people learning the movement together and getting the sensation of hitting something.

That, plus ambidexterity!

[Makata]

Recently I was studying at another instructor's school and we were doing, essentially, Heaven Six. (A slight variant of it, actually.) Then he had us put a knife in the left hand and continue. We were to strike the knives together just as we did the sticks.

I've always had mixed feelings about this. I like doing a sinawali empty-hand to change the range or with one stick and one empty hand for the long-and-short weapon training--many say that using two weapons of dissimilar lengths is one of the hardest skills of all--and in that regard I like this exercise.

But...I really dislike clanking together the blades of the (plastic training) knives. I think it reinforces a bad habit, if one is really thinking of those as a knife. It's one thing to block stick-on-stick, recognizing that in reality one would often want to hit the hand. After all, range and power may make you want to block on the stick sometimes, and besides, the way you hit the stick is essentially how you'd hit the hand. But the blade-to-blade hit with the knife is unlike how you'd use it; you wouldn't block edge-to-edge, and if you were going after the hand you'd want to make a cut, not a strike. A press of the knife can do damage, but it's not the first choice.

I tend to think of the knife as a short stick in that situation, though that still isn't fully satisfactory--I don't think I'd often block a short stick strike like that given the sticks' short length. Yet, the difference in range makes doing the sinawali this way a useful training aid, I feel.

Still, I can't get past thinking that the edge-to-edge striking of the knives just doesn't feel right. I don't practice it like that, myself.

This kinda reminds me of a Hoch Hochheim thing I saw on video once where his guys were doing sinawali drills with short wooden knives in each hand, hitting "blade to blade" with the wooden trainers. I believe it was to impart the quality of shooting the live hand out after a slash attack, but...it's been awhile since I saw that video.

I don't believe I liked seeing that drill either--it just seemed weird and goofy to me, all that "blade to blade" contact. But they have their reasons, I suppose...

It might feel less weird if one just used a shorter stick, rather than a training dagger, I'm sure.

[Pitboss 306]

Some Guros on here would know more about this than me, but isn't sinawali basically a medium distance coordination drill, with the advantage of educating the student on what stick contact feels like?

The real application of the strikes would be more to defang the snake, or hit the hands? even more so with a blade? Maybe a knife sinawali could focus on wrist hits... Maybe a block with the stick and close distance with the knife?

Either way, blade to blade, or knife to knife, I would hate to see a student go into a "friendly" competition mistaking sinawali practice alone as a fighting skill.

[arnisador]

It might feel less weird if one just used a shorter stick, rather than a training dagger, I'm sure.

Less so, yes, but still not fully appropriate to the weapon, I'd think.


Some Guros on here would know more about this than me, but isn't sinawali basically a medium distance coordination drill, with the advantage of educating the student on what stick contact feels like?

I'd largely agree with that, though of course there are other benefits as well.


Maybe a knife sinawali could focus on wrist hits... Maybe a block with the stick and close distance with the knife?

Yes, but I'd think that that would lose the feel and rhythm of a sinawali...let alone the problem of the repeated wrist hits!

[Matt Lim]

knives clanking similar to sinawali drills is hilarious. btw, imho, sinawali drills are not for symmetry but for ambidexterity which means you got two hands working. as long as you got two hands working, it doesn't matter if the weapons are equal or unequal in lengths, you can still call it sinawali. to be able to weave shots and hits every which way without any of the hands antagonizing each other, that's the raison d'être of sinawali

[arnisador]

To my mind ambidexterity is one of the biggest advantages to sinawali training. It's not the only advantage, but it's one of the best ways to get both hands working independently.

[kabaroan]

Still, I can't get past thinking that the edge-to-edge striking of the knives just doesn't feel right. I don't practice it like that, myself.

And it shouldn't. Edge to edge striking is impact. Impact tools should be used for impact techniques. Knives and swords (and other edged weapons) are meant for cutting, slicing and chopping, not impact.

Part of the problem of espada y daga training or baston y daga training with short stick is that 1) many techniques treat the daga as an impact weapon and not a cutting or slicing weapon and 2) there is no guard to help support/trap/stop a weapon from sliding onto the hand.

Any parrying, in my humble opinion, should be done with the flat of the blade, not the edge, too easy to destroy the blade that way. Again, just my opinion.