Is Pekiti Tirsia a Pure / Thoroughbred FMA?

[truth_be_told]

reading after GM Leo Gaje blogspot at http://pekiti-tirsia.typepad.com

have following question -


i) Is PTK really a 100% genuine pure bred FMA?

ii) How does GM Leo view existing FMA in the Phil if such the case ?
If impression is wrong, why does GM Leo Gaje make statement like below:

On one hand seems to say ( PTK Unity amongst FMAers is only for select group Inosantos, Bakbakan, Doce Pares etc. except Balintawak)


quate - blog Oct 23, 2006
'I dont tolerate anyone who critizes anyone and who cannot justify that critisicm.
If you critize Guro Dan Inosanto or Bakbakan or Doce Pares or any FMA it is as good as you critize me or despise our teachings.

If you are with Balintawak and you think non-Balintawak is no tgt good then come out in the open and say you are Balintawak that way I will respect you but hide like a wet chicken then you are useless.
Nobody question the blade while it is flat and nobody question the stick since it is round and nobody undermines the bullet because it bites'
On the other hand, he blasted the above same group.
quate March 07, 2007 GM Leo blogspot says

I) In PEKITI TIRSIA EYES, Non-Filipino teachings or Non-Filipino content (whether from silat, japarts, chinesearts etc.) HAS NO PLACE IN REAL WORLD


i) Leo own words "THE DAYS ARE NUMBERED FOR THOSE WHOSE IMAGE IN THE FMA IS MIXED WITH THE NON-FILIPINO SUBSTANCES. "

So Canete's family arts like Cacoy Doce Pares or even Eskrido or MODERN ARNIS or KOMBATAN or Bakbakan or other FMAs that had foreign content can all go Asunder ?

"THE NON-FILIPINO TEACHINGS AND THE NON-FILIPINO MATERIALS IN THE REALITY OF COMBATANCY HAS NO PLACE IN THE REAL WORLD OF
DEAD MAN TELLS NO TALES ENCOUNTERS. "

i wonder if this befits Dan Inosanto. He is American (never step foot on Phil soil), he also teaches materials of Non-Filipino origins ?

Sorry if ask the question isn't Tom Bisio master of PTK Doce Methodos which is accumulation of other FMA arts?

II) KALI IS THE MOTHER FMA ARTs ...ARNIS/ESKRIMA proponents are 'Liars Martial Arts'?

quate GM Leo blog on Aug 28:
'One of the arguments is the use of the word Arnis-Escrima instead of the true word of Kali.

Those who insist to use the word Arnis-Escrima is the fact that the existense of non-filipino martial arts became a materials to mixed with other martial arts believing that mixed can be a good material in the teachings making people believe that such style is good style.

More so with the teachers who knows a little and yet pretended to be knowing a lot'

believed GM Cacoy Canete is in project to dispel 'KALI' the word or mother art of FMA. see Cacoy interview recent past.

Tell me if impression is wrong.

[Twist]

First of all, I really like what I've seen of PTK so this is no critique at all on the system.

But imho the whole "my style is the purest FMA" crap is ridiculous. Its just another thing to argue about and a source for bad blood between the styles.

I'm currently in the Philippines, have seen many many different styles and most of them have japanese or other influences. And whats the problem, if its working? It is a fact that most of the master did karate or combat judo or something else at some time and of course that influenced their art. (Obvious especially in the different Doce Pares and Modern Arnis styles, but the same with many Balintawak-guys, or Kali Ilustrisimo or most of the other groups.)

And if I'm not mistaken, GT Gaje did train with Doce Pares (so he has non-philippino influences there) and Indonesian Silat, which isnt filipino either.

So why not use it if its working and working well within the FMA-System?

[truth_be_told]

but according to GM Leo Gaje said PTK is 100% Pure and Not mixed
quate May 17, 2006 blogspot

I) PEKITI TIRSIA is PURE FMA, the only 1%.


direct quate "99% percent of those who teaches FMA had mixed with the Japanese, Korean, Chinese and other Martial arts believing that it can be superior than the original FMA"

In same blog, Invites to Real masters to join him for February 22to 26-2007 fly from Manila to Mindanao direct to Parang Cotabato at the heart of the Bansang Moro country for guerrila warfare project.

quate GM Leo

"Only one word of advice ( no insurance or guarrantee).For those who are in the list are the Mantas dagga,The Dekiti-Tirsia, The Illustrisimos style, Sayoc Kali,Atienza Kali,Balintawak, Laban Laro, Bakbakan,and others who are teaching FMA whose names just came out in the internet .The Missiion is SEARCH AND DESTROY. "

Why Sayoc & Atienza Kali ? They not based in Phil at all.


Why Laban Laro Balintawak etc? these are general name for group while other are explicit ?

So is PTK really 100% Pure Bred with No external influence ?

Do all PTK practitioner (past present) agree that it is PTK is void of external influence ?

[arnisador]

If there is a "most pure" or "original" FMA, I am not familiar with it. A lot of things seem to have come from Doce Pares, but it isn't 400 years old.

All Filipino systems have some Spanish influence. It's also very hard to believe that there is no Chinese, SE Asian, or Indian influence in the systems, given the seafaring nature of all those nations. Sailors surely traded techniques...one way or another. What's kuntao but (Indo)Chinese systems?

[PeteNerd]

Go to a seminar and ask Tuhon, but be respectful. Don't pick apart a bunch of blog posts to try to start some Pure art argument.

He's just saying have some pride and integrity in your art. A lot of people mix FMA with other stuff and try to sell it as FMA. Obviously he's biased towards Pekiti Tirsia.

Pete

[Ventura]

This is how I see it, other styles or "systems" are broken pieces. They're reversed engineered to represent something complete, but they had to take missing pieces from other arts (judo, karate, kung fu, silat, etc) to complete it.

When Tuhon says Pekiti Tirsia is pure I think what he's saying is that it's the most complete system of Pilipino martial arts. It is pure because it doesn't have any missing pieces. The principles and methods as passed down from Conrado Tortal to Leo Gaje is so complete it can adapt, create and evolve from within. It doesn't need the infusion from other arts foreign or domestic.

The difference is the completeness of the system in principles and methods. Other "styles" borrow and incorporate to fill in the missing pieces, Pekiti Tirsia does not because it doesn't have to.

Tuhon did his research. He can say this because he has done his comparative analysis.

[Carol]

The impression that I received from reading his blog (May 7th back to April 29) was that he was trying to make a "most indiginous" point.

Which personally I find to be a bit curious. Someone here once posted a quote that I think sums up the culture of FMA training quite nicely. He said something to the effect of "Rank doesn't matter in the Philppines, what matters is if you're good." I'm a little surprised to see what strikes me as a Japanese/Okinawan type of argument for a Filipino art.

[Chris Wiggins]

This seems to me to be just bait for the flamers. Tuhon Gaje is very charismatic and VERY opinionated. It's not bragging if you can back it up. The man is near 70, and has been training, non stop, since he was 6! He is, without debate, the single greatest living authority on FMA. He has had a stick/blade in his hands longer than most of us have been on this earth.
There is nuance in the broken english of the blog. There are also, very often, great nuggets of wisdom.
The bottom line is, he sees a watering down of what he believes to be the true FMA. It's COMBAT, not ticky tack drills with sloppy striking and no footwork. If you've not been to a seminar, or trained with him; if your only experience with PTK is what you've seen on You Tube, I don't think you're seeing the whole picture.

[truth_be_told]

carol is spot on 'the most indigenious' art. read the blogspot

FMA history being short than other MA.

hard to imagine an art does not NO outside/external influence. in a sense pure Indigenious. this why i do some research and post the question.

the norm most FMA is take pride in the external influences as 'what works' matters.

but PTK does not instead shun those who had external influences (clearly from blog with explicit naming of FMA styles)

this no question on GM Leo Gaje abilities.

this is more like anthropology academic aspect on claims made whether substantial or not.

the little i know and thanks to google here are some quates

I) PTK practitioner Website:


GT Conrado was a Christian missionary early in life, and later a Chief of Police. Through their travels, Grand Tuhon and his brothers were able to encounter other Filipino martial arts systems, sometimes from demonstrations, and others by mortal combat. The Philippines became a virtual laboratory for Pekiti-Tirsia. Although Grand Tuhon is called the founder of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali by most, the family system was studied for at least two generations prior. Grand Tuhon’s contribution consisted of structuring the system with a progressive approach to learning.

The doce methodos was created as a training tool to show other family members and future generations how others might fight. The natural progression through the doce methodos instilled new concepts and skills in the practitioner. Once the doce methodos was completed, the actual family system of Pekiti-Tirsia was taught and better appreciated.

II) from PTK? Greg Aland

During our work together I saw the development and growth of PT from other systems, in that Tuhon stayed in the house of GM Dionisio Canete from around October to May of 1979 when he returned with the 'Sagong lebo, lebo sagong, we all said wow. But I found it to be direct from Doce Pares, although when we meet GM 'Nene' Tortal, many years later it was part of the Dekiti Tirsia Saradas, and the drill was not isolated to just the punyo, but in the saradas of DT it had many elements of change

some would even say PTK is Conglomeration, Consolidation and Refined from Other Styles Of FMA from some PMs.

any constutive comment?

[Matt Lim]

If there is a "most pure" or "original" FMA, I am not familiar with it. A lot of things seem to have come from Doce Pares, but it isn't 400 years old.

All Filipino systems have some Spanish influence. It's also very hard to believe that there is no Chinese, SE Asian, or Indian influence in the systems, given the seafaring nature of all those nations. Sailors surely traded techniques...one way or another. What's kuntao but (Indo)Chinese systems?
There was a time in the visayas particularly in cebu that the term escrima or any movement simulating close quarter combat is known as doce pares. It doesn't matter what it is, how its done, it was called doce pares.

PTK as pure FMA is as pure as the water of the present pasig river.

[arnisador]

There was a time in the visayas particularly in cebu that the term escrima or any movement simulating close quarter combat is known as doce pares. It doesn't matter what it is, how its done, it was called doce pares.

I didn't know that! I was referring to the specific art.

[Black Grass]

....

PTK as pure FMA is as pure as the water of the present pasig river....

Hahaha! But you still see people in the Pasig River!

Vince
aka Black Grass

[Ventura]

There was also a time when there were no such people as Pilipinos. There were only different ethnic groups: Tagalog, Ilocano, Illongo, Ibanag, Visaya, Pampangueno, etc, etc.

How far back in history do you want to go, pre-1500's?

[arnisador]

There was also a time when there were no such people as Pilipinos. There were only different ethnic groups: Tagalog, Ilocano, Illongo, Ibanag, Visaya, Pampangueno, etc, etc.

Actually, this is a good point. Every nation has to forge its identity at some point!

[Gilla]

PTK is as pure a FMA as it gets. Its history can be traced a 125 years, what the personal influence of the PTK practitioner is is something else. And once more people who don't train in it are trying to make some assumtion . Come and see the elephant and you will understsand. Also don't listen to Nene or Mr. Alland they don't know either.
Eddie

[puntadas]

that's 400yrs! & who gives a toss about purity? Geezer...

[oosh]

The Ilustrisimo Family style can be traced back to Tatang's Great Grand Father - Pablo Ilustrisimo; Tatang was born in 1904.

The lineage stretches further back than Pablo, but those names aren't available to us.

[Gilla]

Mr.Lim what do you mean by PTK as pure as the pasig river? Could you explain, many people on this blog have not been to the Philipines and don't get your referance. I do, others might not.
Eddie

[arnisador]

Mr.Lim what do you mean by PTK as pure as the pasig river? Could you explain, many people on this blog have not been to the Philipines and don't get your referance.

Yes, I'm afraid that I didn't understand the significance of that reference!

[PeteNerd]

Yes, I'm afraid that I didn't understand the significance of that reference!

The pasig river connects Laguna Lake and Manila Bay. It divides the city of Manila in half. It is also so polluted that it's considered biologically dead.

Pete

[PeteNerd]

PTK is as pure a FMA as it gets. Its history can be traced a 125 years, what the personal influence of the PTK practitioner is is something else. And once more people who don't train in it are trying to make some assumtion . Come and see the elephant and you will understsand. Also don't listen to Nene or Mr. Alland they don't know either.
Eddie

Just so everyone knows... I agree with Eddie here. Check out PTK, go to a seminar with Tuhon. If it's not for you, it's not for you. The system and principles have been around for years. The Doce Methodos hasn't changed. It works as a whole system, not like a hodge podge of different techniques.

Pete

[Carol]

*shrug* We could replace the Pekiti-Tirsia section with a locked sticky post that simply said "Go to a Seminar" ... but that would make this place rather boring. ;)

[puntadas]

that's a great idea & then all the 'massage therapists' (I mean martial artists) could circumvent reality & continue playing with sticks & gi's & their dull friends too...

[equilibrium]

summary of what I've heard from Tuhon Gaje

1. his art is pure and not mixed
2. there isn't a need to mix in other arts and in fact can create problems, what he calls bad habits.. and if you did mix, you have to be a master to be able to mix in things correctly to not create problems(most people mixing think they are masters but are not)
3. PTK is focused on the blade, some of the other arts people try and mix were not focused on the blade, so they do things that get you killed when a blade is involved. Many of the arts mixed in are sport versions of older arts. If that isn't a backwards @ss*d way to do things....I don't know what is.

In my opinion it is an insult to the art to try and strap on other arts to it.

I'd also say there is a big difference in the purpose and intent between cross training and competive analysis. It can look the same on the outside, but what is going on inside is something different.

Too many people are trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Like one guy said, "I'm here in the phillipines and most arts are mixed in the japanese arts, etc." Just shows PTK is better since it never got screwed up by the mixers.

Presas probably mixed in stuff/changed the art for marketing and sport reasons(from other posts on this bulletin board)... good reasons for what he had in mind, but not compatible with the PTK purpose--- survival.

PTK is about survival not sports, not modern anything. Nothing has changed, a thrust is still a thrust, a slash still a slash. No need to change or mix in anything.

[Twist]

Like one guy said, "I'm here in the phillipines and most arts are mixed in the japanese arts, etc." Just shows PTK is better since it never got screwed up by the mixers.


Well.. GT Gaje did train some of those styles in his younger years..

[arnisador]

I think every significant FMA instructor I know of has trained in multiple styles at some point!

[Wayuk-Oyaak]

Hello fellow FMA-ers!

I have been a long time lurker in this forum and my first time here as a member. Hopefully, I can share good values to all the members here in FMA Talk.

Let's get back to the topic...


I think every significant FMA instructor I know of has trained in multiple styles at some point!

In some point there are advantages in having one or few styles in your sleeve but there are also disadvantages - one is identity of your main style. I truly believe that Tuhon's points are valid. I have been with several styles not just FMA but KMA and JMA as well but the proponents of a single system is not a deadend. In the first place, there was no mixing of styles and yet the warriors of the past proved to be more deadly and effective to their warrior life. since we have been living in the 21st century, some of us now have few martial arts studies. If one truly believes in his system as effective, we can only agree to that because bluntly speaking... loyalty is one of our virtues.

p.s. sorry that my english is not as good as anyone can understand... salamat.

[Carol]

Hello fellow FMA-ers!

I have been a long time lurker in this forum and my first time here as a member. Hopefully, I can share good values to all the members here in FMA Talk.

Let's get back to the topic...



In some point there are advantages in having one or few styles in your sleeve but there are also disadvantages - one is identity of your main style. I truly believe that Tuhon's points are valid. I have been with several styles not just FMA but KMA and JMA as well but the proponents of a single system is not a deadend. In the first place, there was no mixing of styles and yet the warriors of the past proved to be more deadly and effective to their warrior life. since we have been living in the 21st century, some of us now have few martial arts studies. If one truly believes in his system as effective, we can only agree to that because bluntly speaking... loyalty is one of our virtues.

p.s. sorry that my english is not as good as anyone can understand... salamat.

Your English is excellent Wayuk-Oyaak. Welcome to FMAtalk!

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Hi there everyone,

This is just my honest opionion. it is good to train in other systems, be it FMA and/or non-FMA systems as no art has a monopoly in killing/defending... history teaches us that every nation/tribe fought some time in their history.. some were obliterated from the face of the earth and some like the Sumerian Empire, Egyptians, Spartans, Macedonian, Roman Empire, Mongolian, Chinese & Japanese Dynasties etc have conquered vast lands for thousands of years all using their own methods which produced the same results; there are only so many ways to hurt someone else... Those cultures that prevailed have proved themselves as have the FMA in WW2 to a more specific event.

(a tangent: this gets me thinking: what if the Americans and modern guns weren’t there to help the Philippines fight the Japanese in WWII… what would happen to the FMAs in particular?)

Back to the subject on hand: A punch is a punch, kick is a kick, thrust/cut is a thrust/cut in every part of the world... some are more efficient and some not in punching, kicking, and in weapon fighting, yet we are all human so we all know how to kill humans... we all have two arms, two legs, a head (well most of us )… the physiology and biomechanics are essentially the same... most criminals have no offical training in killing, but have the aggressive intent and will to do so...

time/culture/philosophy/religion has watered us from our basic instincts today and most of the 6.5 Billion people don't know how to fight... and now people (martial artists) claim to exclusively have the complete picture of effective killing/defending... they disregard other culture's histories... this in turn gives certain martial art systems a claim as being the BEST… I believe

yes, loyalty is a great virtue… HOWEVER, if someone is coming to kill me and my family, I will use any means necessary to defend my family—be it FMA, MMA, GUNS and God knows what else----SURVIVING IS THE GREATEST NEED and takes precedence over Virtue.

I believe the question or point i'm trying to address is the need to claim to be the best, most "pure art." other than making money, what's the point? (money to survive eh?)

hear from all of you soon!

Capt.

[Carol]

I guess something that bugs me about these kinds of statement is, in my mind Pekiti-Tirsia is a great art...and I'm sure many of you folks feel the same way. In some of the more (ahem) firey discussions, I don't think there was anyone trying to make the point that PTK stinks. Tuhon Gaje is a phenomenal talent.

Personally I think Jason makes a fair point when he says

In my opinion it is an insult to the art to try and strap on other arts to it. I can totally get behind the reasoning.

However statments like "purest" and "most indigenous" just strike me as being congecture. It leaves me wondering...with an art as great as PTK, with so much substance and so much history, why use an arguable statement to illustrate the art instead of a substantiated description?

[Twist]

However statments like "purest" and "most indigenous" just strike me as being congecture. It leaves me wondering...with an art as great as PTK, with so much substance and so much history, why use an arguable statement to illustrate the art instead of a substantiated description?
Thats what I dont understand either... With such a nice art, theres no need to "advertise" that way.

[equilibrium]

Mmmm. I can't help but think the argument is off. He said "All cultures know killing so who is anyone to say they do it best...?" (paraphrased)

I want to make this point clear that is obvious...Most cultures KNEW killing but the arts that were effective combative techniques were lost as you say, due to various factors...but the martial artists are among the people who lost the effective technique. They turned jiu-jitsu into Ju-do, kenjitsu into ken-do. And a swordsman invented something called Aikido...

As time passes, what was once a great martial arts system gets turned into a sport and LOSES IT'S ORIGINAL EFFECTIVENESS.

The Europeans, we had, amoung other real fighting skills worthy of defending your family, swordmanship, right? What do we have now, the sports of boxing, wrestling, and fencing? The bladed skills went out the window big time. It is just all about sports man. Heck, boxers wear big pillows on their hands and act like the can't use any other part of their body except their hands, wrestlers strive to pin the guy on his back(hands free or not), and the fencing is done in straight lanes where the first one to touch the other guy with his little fairy wand wins the big medal. Did we lose something here?

Wasn't Judo invented as a sport.. taking out the moves that might get someone hurt. Wouldn't want to do that.. oh no.. Isn't the foil and boxing gloves and the rules for ultimate fighting all about not being effective? If you are effective it kills the sport.

So if there is any money to be made, you should
1. teach kids
2. hold tournaments with rules enough to make everyone feel safe or keep the law off your behind.
3. Teach multiple arts since you get more students overall, touch on more market segments
4. maybe throw in some mystical harmony philosophy and teach wimps discipline and self respect. They won't be able to save themselves, but they might feel powerfull at least.

And if you haven't noticed Pekiti Tirsia ain't making alot of money. Oh yeah, all those pekiti tirsia guys driving around in BMWs oh yeah...right!

So no, it doesn't make sense to study a bunch of arts since so many have been made lame through time. The people got soft and so did the martial arts!

So... if we could study one of the other arts of one of the many cultures on earth that have been fierce warriors, yeah, you know what? It might be as good or EVEN BETTER than pekiti.. but most of those arts died out in their pure form. We value pekiti since it wasn't invented to nullify the empty handed kung fu style of the other clan, nor did it evolve to be a sport, nor to be politically correct or add in japanese stuff to attract the guys involved in japanese arts. No! We value it because it is the real deal.. This is hard liquor and not watered down.. This is the PURE stuff and it doesn't need anything added or subtracted. It needs to be preserved like something authentic in a museum. Oh look the real crown worn by a king in the 5th century BC, why don't we take it and add in some $2 rhinestones...we'll fix it..

Most the the "martial arts" we are stuck with today are about as similar to real combative systems as bear claws are to our modern day fingernails are. They are good for scratching your butt but not the defenders of the cave that they were.

Heck, even thai kickboxing.. wasn't the real art krabi krabong or something like that.. But heck who wants the real deal when they can sweat and kick pads and fight in the ring with one guy, a ref and a bunch of rules? Who wants to wield a real weapon anyway? You might hurt somebody for real... Where's the fun in that? WWF, now that is fun and they swear it's real...

In summary, we don't think the filipinos have the best anything nor the corner on the fighting arts. What we do think is that effective combative systems lose their effectiveness over time and are changed to other purposes. We also believe that pekiti tirsia is an art that is still an original, pure combative system that has not been watered down or sportized or otherwise jacked up.

Let's keep it that way. If I try and mix pekiti with judo than my grandchildren will learn a system that is probably pretty screwed up.

[Wayuk-Oyaak]

Why use an arguable statement to illustrate the art instead of a substantiated description?Sir, thanks for acknowledging me to this forum. My only argument to this question is that PTK is getting to the point that when Tuhon sees it… PTK is going to the wrong track. What I mean to say is, many FMA styles are engaged in sports… watered down and diluted and little training here and there and some instructors claim it a legit methods of training. We can all understand that any masters or great grandmasters will always try to make the art at its purest form not just a branch of his family art. In this case, Tuhon Gaje will try to emphasize that PTK is not diluted or watered down art. His only proof is that PTK will never be another profit-making source.


Thats what I dont understand either... With such a nice art, theres no need to "advertise" that way.Hello Twist, what I see on Tuhon's point of view is/are not some sort of advertising. It is a fact that most (or maybe maority) of FMA now is "selling" out of simple techniques not a source of learning.

[RRodriguez]

The art is only as effective as the practitioner. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with FMA used as a sports competition. To me, it's just another training session. What's important is that the practitioner recognizes the DIFFERENCES between what works on a sports competition (with protective gear) and what works on real life-threatening situations. Bruce Lee used to say, "you react the way you train".

[Ventura]

Judo wasn't invented as a sport.

Aikido wasn't invented by a swordsman.

Not all European fencing/swordsmanship is done on a strip with a foil.

Not all boxing are done with gloves and they don't just punch.

Not all wrestling are won with a pin or a throw.

Ju Jutsu is not different from Judo (technically), they differ philosophically.

Ken Jutsu is not different from Kendo (technically), they differ philosophically.

Muay Thai ring fighting is not Muay Thai the traditional art. There are certain things more effective in the ring strategically when you play for points.

You don't need to mix anything with Pekiti Tirsia Kali. I feel that it's perfect the way it is. It is the most complete and true martial system that I have seen.

However, it is important to get facts straight about other martial arts. How are you going to counter something you don't know?

Pekiti Tirsia solves all problems against other martial arts. It is thoroughly developed. It is perfect!

However, you and you alone can stand to face other style. Your teacher or any of his ancestors won't save you. Not even the genius of the Pekiti Tirsia system can save you.

You have to be as educated as possible. Being educated doesn't mean you have to mix anything. In fact being educated in the different styles will show you how brilliant the Pekiti Tirsia system is.

Sports and games are good. The most deadly men are the softest men. They can decide how much or how little damage they want to inflict. The hard men, those who think they're too deadly are not deadly at all. They live in a fantasy world.

Can you beat Judo guy at their own game and make them look stupid without using brute force? Can you out box a boxer and have them wonder at your footwork and ability to hit? Can you face a fencing champion with your rattan and touch them without getting touched?

The standard for myself as a Pekiti Tirsia student is this: I can play everyone's game, but they can never play my game.

[silat1]

There are a few systems out of the Philippines that aren't going the route for sports.. I practice a couple that are from the Pampanga region of central luzon and we are still strictly oriented toward the way it was taught to me by my instructors and I still keep my students geared toward that goal.. we do maintain the dakap diwa (warrior mindset ) of the Macebebe warriors of central luzon and although we are mere students of these systems, I feel that our instructors would be proud of the way we are keeping the systems alive and growing..

Bill
Defensive Tactics
Guam

[Carol]

Sir, thanks for acknowledging me to this forum. My only argument to this question is that PTK is getting to the point that when Tuhon sees it… PTK is going to the wrong track. What I mean to say is, many FMA styles are engaged in sports… watered down and diluted and little training here and there and some instructors claim it a legit methods of training. We can all understand that any masters or great grandmasters will always try to make the art at its purest form not just a branch of his family art. In this case, Tuhon Gaje will try to emphasize that PTK is not diluted or watered down art. His only proof is that PTK will never be another profit-making source.




Now that I can follow. Thanks for sharing that! :)

Just please don't call me sir if you don't mind, I'm a woman. ;) I'm not much for titles...Carol is fine.

[Carol]

So if there is any money to be made, you should
1. teach kids
2. hold tournaments with rules enough to make everyone feel safe or keep the law off your behind.
3. Teach multiple arts since you get more students overall, touch on more market segments
4. maybe throw in some mystical harmony philosophy and teach wimps discipline and self respect. They won't be able to save themselves, but they might feel powerfull at least.

And if you haven't noticed Pekiti Tirsia ain't making alot of money. Oh yeah, all those pekiti tirsia guys driving around in BMWs oh yeah...right!
(snip)

Let's keep it that way. If I try and mix pekiti with judo than my grandchildren will learn a system that is probably pretty screwed up.

That actually touches on a couple subjects that I feel very strongly about. One is the watering down of martial arts, the other is business.

There is a strong sentiment here for not wanting to see PTK watered down, and that's one I personally share very strongly. However, there is a difference between something being agreeable in concept to a sentiment that is actively functioning realizing the stated goals.

The most-commonly-used vehicle that facilitates spreading martial arts knowledge is business. That business could be big or small, for profit or non-profit, successful or struggling. Especially in the states, nearly all of us went through the training that we have and paid/offered monies (or something else of value) as part of the process. There is nothing wrong with this. I would never dream of approaching an instructor with the expectation or insistence of being trained for free. There is no realistic way to speak of not watering down a martial art without speaking of the accompanying business practice.

Some schools dilute their art out of greed, but it is also done out of ignorance because the decision makers do not know how to retain the value of their product. Other schools run in to trouble because the owner and staff doesn't have a good command of business basics such as labor laws, accounting standards, insurance coverage, or managing a customer's expectations.

Despite all of this, there is no martial arts system that I know of that demands entrepreneurial skills and a proven business acumen when promoting a student to instructor. There is years of practice that goes in to a students personal proficiency, and teaching skills, but little to know focus on the very vehicle that brings this art to other people.

There are many ways that business practices can help keep PTK from being watered down. One could be instructor dedication to material over income. Another is an instructor with a career outside of teaching that allows the person to provide for themselves without needing to use their instruction as a profit center.

However, there are other ways to accomplish this as well.

One can attract a customer base that seeks the exclusive.

There is a market for physical trainning that is demanding and experiences that are elite. Many of the folks buying these things have an appreciation and a desire to be a part of the rare and undiluted. It's not for everyone. Not everyone appreciates beluga caviar or an exquisitely cut dry-aged porterhouse, either...but for the people that are...they are buying, paying high prices, and are happy to do so. An instructor with the stature to attract, close, and retain a customer base that includes the areas business elite would be able to run a profitable business without watering the art down.


Another is thinking outside the box when training children.

There is a lot of money to be made by training children, training children doesn't mean that one waters down the art. I don't think a 6 year old should be taught to cut another 6 year old's throat with a training blade. However, a child can be taught certain aspects of the art and participate in physical activities that help them have fun and build confidence as they mature. Even if (say) a 13 year old begins serious training after having done nothing but blocks, manoeuvers, adn dodge ball for the last 6 years, that 13 year old is far better prepared to take on the rigors of an undiluted art than a 13 year old that's spent the last 6 years playing Nintendo and eating at McDonalds.


Or, thinking outside the box with the space available.

An instructor can offer instruction in something health/fitness related...such as conditioning sessions, cardio classes, or personal training. The strength of PTK is not diminished simply by being taught in the same place that offiers a noontime kickboxing class for people in the town's office parks.

An experienced entrepreneur could grow the business by taking advantage of other opportunities that fit the situation of the school. I know of one school that has a small, but dedicated group of students. The owner wanted to expand his business but didn't want to cannibalize the school's training or atmosphere. Instead, when it came time to expand, he rented more space and converted it to a coffee shop which he ran as a seperate business. He's mentioned that the coffee shop is starting to have a customer base of its own...but then said he was surprised at it actually made the environment of the school even better. He says some students linger for coffee after class, discussing their traing, proposing times to get together and practice, or even taking a moment to get to know the newer students better.

An instructor that wants to presesrve their art must pass it on to someone that can teach efficiently. But much like a teacher can't be by a student's side in a real fight...a teacher can't be by the student's side when they have to make operational decisions in a gathering of their own.

Whether they set out to teach in their garage, at the Y, or on Main street...the preservation of the art depends on the daily business decisions these students make, and how they continue to make them as their teaching matures.

I hope they are taught wisely.

[Matt Lim]

Thats what I dont understand either... With such a nice art, theres no need to "advertise" that way.Yep, its such a nice art. No need to "advertise" that way.

[Wayuk-Oyaak]

Now that I can follow. Thanks for sharing that! :)

Just please don't call me sir if you don't mind, I'm a woman. ;) I'm not much for titles...Carol is fine.Carol, my apologies to you... I didn't know that you're a lady.

@ equilibrium

Sir, I agree on your post. Tuhon don't teach us how to be "money maker" but a good practitioner.

[Carol]

Carol, my apologies to you... I didn't know that you're a lady. No worries. It is easy to make that kind of mistake when you cannot see someone in person :)

[BlackScorpion47]

Having spent many decades in the wierd and wacky world that is martial arts, I have to say that whenever the word "pure" enters the conversation "I reach for my revolver." I don't even waste time listening to those who would give me a scathing lecture on the "purity" or "non-purity" of any fighting "art," combative "sport," or self defense system.

Take my advice and study whatever piques your interest for whatever reason. It will become obvious over time that some combative training methods are designed for real world survival, and some are designed for a myriad of other reasons including physical fitness, psychological fortitude "re-alignment," etc., etc.

If you really want to get to know the differences between the rainbow cornucopia of martial arts out there to study, I suggest spending a short stint in the military, befriending those who have seen and survived "fire and rain," and continually seek out those who will keep you on that winding path. Of course, if you are just in it for the exercise and the history and the tradition and the banter and the bull and the comaraderie, any style or system will serve you well.

In my humble opinion, most of the people involved in most martial arts are being conned and scammed in terms of "reality based" functional training. And amazingly, some people who actually train in extremely functional martial arts systems never develop the "killer instincts" that would allow them to really use what they learn when the chips are down. However, after many years of watching this phenomenon I have come to the conclusion that most martial artists are getting precisely what they want in some perverse way. There are lots of people in every style or system that are not warriors, but rather wimps! Nothing wrong with being a wimp or a geek...you can always hire a warrior to protect you if you have a good job.

But, whatever you do, learn early on to be wary of anyone who wants to clue in to "purity" or "truth." In essence; believe little of what you hear, and only a bit more of what you see in this world. Learn, play, evolve, and develop highly refined personal experience over time. Then you are on the right path.

[puntadas]

yup!

I like dressing with my salad too...don't forget yer greens lads.

[RRodriguez]

BlackScorpion47,

Well said. I look forward to reading more of your future posts.

[tanod]

going to a seminar to see a bigger picture of PTK, BS. you have to go to the source. all you get from seminars are seminar material, im not saying that seminars are bad, its fun. in MY OPINION you dont get alot from it cause its fast, no time for materials to sink in, for me seminar is not real training, its taking notes time.
as tuhon gaje would say "slow is smooth and smooth is fast"
well seminar is fast.
but that's just me:)

[equilibrium]

Not all humans have noses either...(not all boxers wear gloves, etc) Boxers tend to break their hands alot when not wearing gloves if you watch the news...

If aikido was not invented by a swordsman, it was invented by someone who learned techniques invented by swordsmen. Pretty close to same thing to a big picture guy like me.

From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido

"aikido derives much of its technical structure from the art of swordsmanship (kenjutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenjutsu)).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido#_note-ADS)"

[arnisador]

Jeet Kune Do was heavily influenced by (Western) fencing.

[Ventura]

Jason,

There are still bare knuckle boxers out there who don't have problems getting their knuckles busted. There are boxers out there who know how to execute the cross buttock throw. There also boxers who still do lots of elbow wrenches. Don't put a blanket statement over boxing and put it down because it is ring sport and not a "deadly art".

Your information on aikido is also inaccurate. Please do some more research before putting blanket statements on different martial arts. I'm surprised that you don't know more about different styles since your website is called compare styles.

[puntadas]

Yes!

I can't stand 'know it all's' quoting stuff they heard from somewhere else...


purity = sterility


we're all as different from each other as chalk 'n cheese & the sooner that is appreciated the better off we'll all be!


The fact that we have to hand such an excellent 'training method' & this from the recent past, is what ought be focused upon ~
bringing us to self-realization & beyond...


yet some folk's is happy to wallow in history, mystery & prophe$$$y.


Take off your white socks & racquet ball safety glasses - think culture!


try
big picture guy...

[Carol]

If an art truly is great, then it can stand on its own as being truly great without denigrating other arts or stylists to prove the point.

[KrissOfSweden]

If an art truly is great, then it can stand on its own as being truly great without denigrating other arts or stylists to prove the point.
well said... :)

[equilibrium]

I provided documentation on one of my statements that was contested, and was told again that my info was incorrect, I provided some documentation, no one else did.

I was called a "know it all" and again my generalizations about for example boxing, were simply responded to by saying that there are some "exceptions" to my generalizations.

Like people who say "You can't generalize"... well you can and in general it it true.

I really don't think that anyone has responded in in intelligent manner to my posts.

Cross training didn't work for me.

What arts did I denigrate? Is it denegration to say that modern foil fencing has lost much of it's combat application in becoming a sport? Anyone deny that? Anyone deny that as soon as there are rules, that you exploit the rules? That sports teach bad habits because of these rules? Would boxers instinctive go to the clinch if other techniques were permitted?

If my fact on aikido quoted are wrong, I guess you guys can please update wikipedia to have the correct info.

I think you are just hacked off since I don't believe in cross training or don't believe that pekiti tirsia is what Tuhon says it is.

I guess you guys train in so many arts that whatever art I mention you take it personally.

Western fencing.. maybe there are a few that still have the old info, if so those ARMA guys are wasting their time researching old books. We have a living book, but you pay no attention to the living book.

This is a pekiti tirsia discussion area by the way so I can't say it is great here and compare it to other styles?

[equilibrium]

Is being called a sport denegration? Or is it what it is?

Everyone who is so offended by my comments on purity and cross training may want to ask a question of their pekiti tirsia instructor and Grand Tuhon himself.. please post their responses here.

I have come to believe what I am told by my elders/teachers in the PT system. Not because I believe anything they tell me, but because I have seen for myself it is true. Some of it took time. For about 2 years I did both pekiti tirsia and wing chun at the same time, training 2-3 times per week in each. I was told I should quit wing chun since it was impeding my progress. I resisted for awhile, when I finally was convinced, I improved my Pekit dramatically. Jim of the southlake PT school said I was the one who had had the most dramatic improvement in my skills. That was after I trained solely Pekiti Tirsia. I didn't want to give up wing chun since I was already a fair way through the system, and would also have to abandon students that I was teaching at the time. That was sad for me and for them.. some of them no longer train in wing chun at all and none train in Pekiti Tirsia.

We are all different, this is my truth. I am sticking with what I said.

[Ventura]

Jason,

Let first set things straight with you. I'm a true loyal Pekiti Tirsia student. I do believe that PTK is a thoroughbred martial arts. It's the most true complete system and purely Pilipino martial art that I've seen. It's a work of genius. I believe that Pekiti Tirsia is what Tuhon says it is.

You are filled with enthusiasm, but lack education when talking about the martial arts in general. A Pekiti Tirsia man is an educated man. He can prove his authority by words or by action.

It will take a lot of writing to educate you on what you don't know and correct your misconceptions. It's best that you go and research the material yourself. It's not crosstraining it's comparative analysis.

[equilibrium]

That's ridiculous. Read some of this, few of my thoughts are unique to me. You have to argue with lots of people if you argue with what I say and I have documetation.(I typed out alot but then lost my work I was taking so long)

Secrets of the Samurai, Ratti and Westbrook
yes aikido did come from sword technique, watered down or expanded, to integrate the human personality or whatever.

Judo had some of the combat techniques taken out since they were too specialized to help with all the spiritual goals.

Martial Arts Talk, interview with Hunter Thompson
boxing has been evolving for sport for over 100 years, karate was never created nor had anything to do with combat once removed from okinawa. Most arts have already evolved toward sport.

The Secret History of the Sword, Christoph Amberger
Talks about how both technique and weapons changed over time, first for first blood duels and then for sport.
"This way the opponent cannot be injured.."

[equilibrium]

Quote from my interview with Tuhon Gaje:

"What do you think about the mixed martial arts?
Mixed Martial arts is a fad today. They mix because they want to learn how to respond to certain techniques. I want to learn too, I cannot blame these people. But if you mix your martial arts, you have a tendency to develop bad habits. Bad habit because what they give in one martial art may not be workable in another martial art.
Why do you want to mix?
We follow the angles of attack; once you fall into the perimeter of the line of defense, whatever comes in we have to destroy. So why do you want to mix? If the system is equipped with combat technology, you have no reason to mix.
Many times the person that trains them has no concept of what combat is, he only has limited knowledge, or he is out there for sports and to make a living teaching.
How long will you master each mix?
When you mix in ingredients, you have to know the elements of what you are mixing in.
I'll give you an example about mixing, you eat Thai food, American food, Mexican food, Filipino food, kosher food; your stomach will be fighting all night. Sometimes you can mix things that are not compatible.
So the same thing with the mixed martial arts, if someone pulls a knife you don’t know which martial art you are going to use. You hesitate; you can’t decide which technique to use.
Rolling stones gather no moss. Mixing is not a very sophisticated thing to do. You collect another bad habit here; you collect other bad habits there. All the bad habits put together is what you end up with.
I experience this in my seminars, I have mixed martial artists there, you tell them to relax and they tense up. From hard empty hands to weaponry is a very hard thing, they contradict.
Yin and yang, you have to learn how to be soft and when to be hard. One problem is that many teachers do not have sufficient experience in combat.
There is a big movement to mixed martial arts.. .it is ok...What is your common denominator, what is your target?
You have to be accurate and you have to be precise, any mistake you commit during an encounter is a big problem. The game is lost.
If you are a soldier you have to accurate and precise. The same for a painter, sculptor, and carpenter. If you are making a doorknob it must fit in the door. Everything must be accurate and precise."

[Ventura]

I've had a similar a similar conversation with Tuhon. He said something to the effect that mixing styles is like going into a buffet line and all you get in the end is indigestion.

You have to read what he is saying, Jason.

"What is your common denominator."

"We follow the angles of attack; once you fall into the perimeter of the line of defense, whatever comes in we have to destroy."

He is talking about principles. Principles don't change. Methods and expressions change. Principles are the least common denominator. In this case Tuhon used the angles of attack as an example. That's one of the common denominator.

In mixed martial arts, what they commonly mix are methods and expressions instead of working on a set of principles. I think this where you have your difficulty. A popular type of mixing would be Muay Thai striking and BJJ ground work. Another popular type of mixing is western boxing and catch wrestling. Of course there are are lots of other mixes in between. Not that some of these mixes don't have set of principles, of course they do, but they're geared towards empty hand fighting and not integrated towards weapons use.

Mix martial arts deal mainly with empty hand fighting. But, they have to deal common strategic problems weapon based fighting arts face.

1. Getting the range
2. Bridging to the safe angle
3. Controlling the close quarters

They solve these problems by mixing strategies from different arts. What I believe Tuhon was saying is that there's no need to mix strategies from different arts IF you understand principles of weapon use. Ranging, bridging and close quarters are more difficult with a weapon, especially with a bladed weapon.

Now depending on your main "mix" (your base ingredient) different expressions/styles emerge.

Can Pekiti Tirsia compete in this arena? I say absolutely. Do you have to mix anything in? Do we need to add BJJ or some kind of grappling to Pekiti? No. It's alredy there. Do we need to add strikes from muay thai? No. I spar with a lot of MMA types. I use Pekiti Tirsia Kali.

I've trained in other styles. I grew up in the Philippines. I understand that real fighting is about the use of weapons. Everything else is just a game or something you can walk away from.

How do you know that you can do with a weapon what you think you can do? You have to spar, don't you? That's a game with rules and if and when we start counting points it becomes a sport.

Do you spar? Yes, I believe you do. You play the game. We don't call it a sport because we don't keep scores and we don't award medals for points. We do it to hone a skill.

What's the sport of MMA? It's a game played inside a cage or a ring with rules. They keep score and they get paid for winning.

The fundamental problems are the same: Range-Bridge-Close Quarters. That's just one example. Why can't you learn from that?

[lhommedieu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6u1HTuKt9A

Ueshiba training with bokken at about 5:00. Ueshiba trained in classical bujutsu weaponry. However, it is generally thought that his expertise with the spear (not the sword), is fundamental to the genesis of Aikido. There is also an argument that time spent in Manchuria was also instumental to the development of his art.

Best,

Steve

[Brian R. VanCise]

If an art truly is great, then it can stand on its own as being truly great without denigrating other arts or stylists to prove the point.

Absolutely true. Unfortunately men tend to like to boast!http://www.fmatalk.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Ventura]

Who's boasting?

[truth_be_told]

u saying PTK has No Outside influence butPTK practitioner Website states:

[GT Conrado was a Christian missionary early in life, and later a Chief of Police. Through their travels, Grand Tuhon and his brothers were able to encounter other Filipino martial arts systems, sometimes from demonstrations, and others by mortal combat. The Philippines became a virtual laboratory for Pekiti-Tirsia.]

GT Conrado taught police baton techniques. So pure indigenous is the police baton ?

Does a Laboratory involve some form of mixing experiment ?
If PTK is 100% pure, why is the commonalities of other FMA system with PTK.
They copy from PTK ?

facts from Tuhon statements
The In-Depth of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali: How effective it is or How effective it was By Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr.

[If his father or grandfather or grandfather's father was a great fighter and had fought several; wars, including his cousins, uncles before his father, then you can trace the lineage of how a great fighter he is. Pekiti-Tirsia as a system is complete by itself. By the operation of the theory as a fighting art of Filipino origin the techniques that are in the Pekiti-Tirsia are the products of accumulated knowledge gained by our great ancestors long before the coming of the Spaniards in the Philippines.

Since the art of Kali is Malay oriented fighting art and even the word "Kali" is a Malay word. The compilation of different fighting experiences were sorted out and the best technology was formulated by our great ancestors to fit into the proper time. Just as Lapu-Lapu killing Ferdinand Magellan without first using the kampilan. The body armor worn by Ferdinand Magellan didnit stop Datu Lapu-Lapu to use the hardened wooden Bahi as his first line of strategy to smash Magellan's armor including the head. It was then Magellan lost his senses then Lapu Lapu chopped his head with the use of the Kampilan. ...]

If compiled and sorted, how can be pure 100% indigenous for art lasting no more than 2 generations ?

the Malay dictionary show, 'Kali' = multiplication or how many times/how much?

[Dustin]

truth_be_told,

Greetings. Question - what is your definition of pure-bred? I believe it is important to discussions of this nature to have a clear definition of a concept if it is to be discussed and applied. Especially if the concept has multiple meanings and can be taken in different ways. Here are few definitions of "pure":

"not mixed or adulterated with any other substance or material"
"without any extraneous or unnecessary elements"
"of unmixed origin or descent"

Here are is the definition of thoroughbred:

"pure breed or pure origin"
"outstanding or first-class person or thing"

Are you appealing to the first definition, given that Grand Tuhon Gaje uses the word "mixed" in his statements?

Second, in regards to your first posting about the assumed inconsistency in Grand Tuhon Gaje's statements, having a good definition on the table might clear a lot up. Also, what someone says in one context about a particular topic may be context specific (I have not kept up with all of Grand Tuhon Gaje's blogs, so I don't know the context of his above statements) and cannot be generalized. So, not many conclusions (if any at all) can be drawn about the statements without asking the person directly who made the statements. Everyone makes apparent inconsistent statements - probably a lot more than we realize. It is such a problem for those who write books that it has its own name. It is called the Preface Paradox. It doesn't follow from that that we should stop believing someone or something, for example: that PTK is a pure-bred martial art, which I believe it is.

Third, in regards to your most recent post, your question about a laboratory involving some form of mixing experiment (and I take it by your question that you are implying mixing did occur) does not follow from the quote you give. It could simply mean that PTK was tested against other systems, not mixed. Also, you seem to be implying that PTK has mixed with other systems because it shares commonalities with these other FMA systems. This also does not follow. It should be no surprise that PTK shares commonalities with other FMA systems, nor them with PTK, any more than it is not a surprise that any martial art anywhere shares commonalities. The objective is to protect yourself and hurt someone else. Since we are all human, naturally martial arts are going to have commonalities, even specific ones if historically rooted in a particular region, country, etc. Finally, it doesn't necessarily follow that if something is compiled and sorted, then it is not pure. If that is true, then I find it difficult to believe that the word pure can be applied to much of anything, even outside the martial art realm.

Sincerely,
Dustin B. Denson
Guro
Pekiti-Tirsia Kali
http://www.rivercitykali.com

[Ventura]

TBT,

You're either being just a contratrian or you absolutely just don't get it.

Pekiti Tirsia Kali was formulated and developed in the Philippines by a single family, the Tortals. Anthropologically, the knowledge came from contacts with other indigenous people of the area. Yes these other people came from somewhere else through migration, but how far in history do you want to go to prove the Pekiti Tirsia is not pure or indigenous?

Different ethnic groups and different tribes and different families within those tribes develop their own fighting methods. These men went to war. Some might have shared their art and others probably chose to keep their art to themselves. Who knows. I certainly would keep my art to myself and only reveal it to close and trusted family members.

In the Philippines even your cousins could be your enemy next week. It certainly behooves you to keep the knowledge for yourself or very close family members. If this is my attituded now what do you think their attitudes back then when disputes are terminated with the blade?

Pekiti Tirsia Kali is a family art. Who knows how far it goes back. Tortal oral traditions says four generations. Maybe it began to take shape during those turbulent times in 1637 in the war against the Moro. Maybe it began to take shape from the Malays that immigrated in the Maharlikas. Maybe it began to take shape in the Malay and Indo and Thai lands (The Shri Vishayas) where the original tribes of Pilipinos to be came from? Who cares?

Regardless of when or how it took shape it was a single family who developed it to what it is now. It was developed and formulated in the Philippines by Pilipinos. It is pure as it has been filtered through the generations of research and development by a single family and it is indigenous as it sprang from soil of Philippines watered by the blood of other members of the family that developed it.

I am fond of sabong, cockfighting. When I was a kid I had a breed called a Bolinao. It's famous as native breed of fighting rooster. My Bolinao was fierce and never lost a bout. Recently I researched if it was true that Bolinaos are native birds. I found out that the speculation is that Bolinaos are the union of Labuyos (wild native chickens) with other (non-native )fighting roosters that have escaped. Over the hundreds? of years if developed to what it is today. The union created this breed of small, fierce high flying gamecocks. It developed in the wilds of the Philippine jungles. A pure Bolinao is feared by and admired by other Sabong afficionados. The tarek (spur) of my bolinao was almost 2 inches long and sharp. I was often accused of sharpening the tarek of my Bolinao. It was natural. To spar with my Bolinao means instant death. I don't care what historical research say about the origins of the Bolinao breed. Mine came from the jungles of the Philippines pure and indigenous. To me Pekiti Tirsia Kali is like my beloved Bolinao: made for fighting, fierce, pure and indigenous. It will terminate all that comes in its path.

[arnisador]

Pekiti Tirsia Kali was formulated and developed in the Philippines by a single family, the Tortals. Anthropologically, the knowledge came from contacts with other indigenous people of the area. Yes these other people came from somewhere else through migration, but how far in history do you want to go to prove the Pekiti Tirsia is not pure or indigenous?

Everything comes from somewhere else! I don't fully see the point of these arguments. An art like Eskrido or Modern Arnis includes explicit Japanese influences, but all these arts were impacted by SE Asian and Spanish arts, if for no other reason than having to defend against such arts.

It's far from clear to me that more "pure" is even better; it could mean refusing to incorporate new, good ideas too.

[Ventura]

Adobo is a pure and indigenous Pilipino dish. Tell me where does it come from?

I'll tell you... from the natives of the Philippines!

There were no beef dishes in the Philippines before the Spanish came.

I've never seen any Spanish dish resembling Nilaga or Bulalo? Tell me where did these dishes come from?

I'll tell you... from the natives of the Philippines!

Ingredients can come from different places, but how it is cooked and how it is perfected is what you need to look at. When the ingredients grow out of the native soil it is a native ingredient. PTK is like a tasty purely Pilipino and purely indigenious dish created by the Tortal family.

Pure is not better?

What do you want to drink pure water or water from the sewers?

Do you want to eat meat from free range cows or do you want the hormone infused beef?

Do you want a diamond with inclusions? Or do you want a perfect colorless stone?

24K gold (pure) is not better than 18k gold?

Pure is not better? You must be crazy!

[PG Michael B]

Now this thread is making sense...Fooooooooood! Hell yeah .....

If the Pekititirsia folks claim their system is 100% pure cool by me...In the long run it isn't the system it is YOU who drives the bus and makes it work. So if purity is what floats your boat go for it..drive on and just do your thing!

Now does anyone have a good recipe for Filipino Menudo?

[RRodriguez]

Let me give it a try ......

Relating to the question, "Is Pekiti Tirsia pure?" If you do a comparative analysis with, say soft drinks, for
example. Coca Cola brand has been around a long time, as well as Pepsi cola. It wasn't until the 50's and 60's that new soft drinks emerged, such as Sprite, Dr. Pepper and 7-up. Even today, you see companies with their own brands of Cola.

Pekiti Tirsia and other FMA have been around a long time. It wasn't until the 70's and 80's that other mixed arts starting emerging. A lot of it was due to the legendary Bruce Lee's exposure on the big screen and his unorthodox way of fighting using grappling, boxing, Wing Chun and kung fu high kicks!

So how does soft drinks relate to commercial martial arts. Well, there's advertisement (magazines), customers (students), and distributors/vendors (instructors). Some high executives (senior instructors) may have separated from the Coca Cola company and formed their own company, for whatever reasons.

However, during the times I've spent with Grand Tuhon Gaje, I've never seen him drink a soft drink. We have drank a lot of coconut juice, not from a can, but directly from the young coconut fruit. You could say that Pekiti Tirsia is indigenous to the Philippines just as the coconut is. However, you can argue that coconuts also grow in Hawaii, Thailand, Indonesia and other tropical areas. It doesn't matter, though similar, the coconut juice I drank, grew from a Palm tree in the Philippines (a Visayan palm near the town of Bacolod, to be exact). There are other Coconut Palms, in other area in the Philippines, thus there are other Styles of FMA.

In summary. Is Pekiti pure? It's as pure as saying that Coke and Pepsi are the oldest soft drinks in the U.S.
Of course, Coke and Pepsi do have some history before and after it emerged. They eventually, spread to other countries and they TASTE slightly different!

Of course, there is NOTHING LIKE THE REAL THING! Be it coke or young coconut juice.

http://i.pbase.com/u7/stfchallenge/small/1265621.Untitled1copycropfrom1130.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Coconut_drink.jpg/150px-Coconut_drink.jpg

[RRodriguez]

Of course, these are the ones we need to stay away from.

http://i.pbase.com/u7/stfchallenge/small/1281533.DSC00808b.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/u7/stfchallenge/small/1264964.Dsc00618.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/u7/stfchallenge/small/1263235.DSC02775a.jpg

[Wayuk-Oyaak]

I guess PTK is out of the loop for now, eh? Anyway, I hope you guys -and gals - see what PTK meant for us practitioners...

Bring in more food, pleaseeee!

[Buwaya]

Lolz, difference between FMA and other MA? All conversations eventually return to food, lolz!

[arnisador]

I've moved many of the food-related posts to their own thread here (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1930). Feel free to keep posting food pics!

-Arnisador
-FMAT Admin